Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 20.07.2006 17:58:19 von DirtCrashr

Heh, the sales are off (except probably around here where one of those
bastards is a smug ticket to the solo car-pool lane):

Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable
non-hybrids



....Ford was losing $2,000 to $3,000 for every hybrid it sold because
consumers won't pay the entire $6,000 extra that it costs to produce a
hybrid over its gas-powered counterpart...

....when gas prices go up, these people don't rush out to buy more
hybrids. "They buy a Chevy Aveo," says Spinella. "It delivers the same
fuel economy as a Prius, but at half the price."

Heh.

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 20.07.2006 18:27:47 von Rex McKinney

"DirtCrashr" <> wrote in message
news:
> Heh, the sales are off (except probably around here where one of those
> bastards is a smug ticket to the solo car-pool lane):
>
> Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable
> non-hybrids
>
>
>
> ...Ford was losing $2,000 to $3,000 for every hybrid it sold because
> consumers won't pay the entire $6,000 extra that it costs to produce a
> hybrid over its gas-powered counterpart...
>
> ...when gas prices go up, these people don't rush out to buy more
> hybrids. "They buy a Chevy Aveo," says Spinella. "It delivers the same
> fuel economy as a Prius, but at half the price."


But it doesn't produce that smug, "I'm better than you" attitude in those
that drive it. South Park did an show on hybrids that was a hoot making fun
of those people.

Rex McKinney

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 20.07.2006 18:37:56 von diariodastrilhas

DirtCrashr wrote:
> Heh, the sales are off (except probably around here where one of those
> bastards is a smug ticket to the solo car-pool lane):
>
> Heh.

We don't need hybrids, we need bio fuel, we already have the engines,
we already have the distribution network, we already know how to
produce the fuel and it works on our vehicles we have parked outside.
But... bio fuel for existing vehicles does not sell new more expensive
and hype'd vehicles, does it?

-- Tiago

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 20.07.2006 19:30:01 von Rex McKinney

"Tiago Rocha" <> wrote in message
> We don't need hybrids, we need bio fuel, we already have the engines,
> we already have the distribution network, we already know how to
> produce the fuel and it works on our vehicles we have parked outside.
> But... bio fuel for existing vehicles does not sell new more expensive
> and hype'd vehicles, does it?
>


I have a lingering question about bio fuel and I really don't know the
answer to. Does it use as much energy as fossil fuel to produce? You have
plant it and harvest it which requires fertilizer, tractors, ect. Then it
has to be converted to a usable fuel wich also takes energy.

Then the question comes is there enough land to produce the needed
biomass to make this really feasable?

Rex McKinney

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 20.07.2006 19:36:02 von John

rex shhhh don't tell them about the whale oil farm
project until oil hit 78$ a barrel dont worry
no one will miss california when we flood it.
john

"Rex McKinney" <> wrote in message
news:
>
> "Tiago Rocha" <> wrote in message
>> We don't need hybrids, we need bio fuel, we already have the engines,
>> we already have the distribution network, we already know how to
>> produce the fuel and it works on our vehicles we have parked outside.
>> But... bio fuel for existing vehicles does not sell new more expensive
>> and hype'd vehicles, does it?
>>
>
>
> I have a lingering question about bio fuel and I really don't know the
> answer to. Does it use as much energy as fossil fuel to produce? You
> have plant it and harvest it which requires fertilizer, tractors, ect.
> Then it has to be converted to a usable fuel wich also takes energy.
>
> Then the question comes is there enough land to produce the needed
> biomass to make this really feasable?
>
> Rex McKinney
>

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 20.07.2006 20:08:48 von diariodastrilhas

Rex McKinney wrote:
> "Tiago Rocha" <> wrote in message
> > We don't need hybrids, we need bio fuel, we already have the engines,
> > we already have the distribution network, we already know how to
> > produce the fuel and it works on our vehicles we have parked outside.
> > But... bio fuel for existing vehicles does not sell new more expensive
> > and hype'd vehicles, does it?
> >
>
>
> I have a lingering question about bio fuel and I really don't know the
> answer to. Does it use as much energy as fossil fuel to produce? You have
> plant it and harvest it which requires fertilizer, tractors, ect. Then it
> has to be converted to a usable fuel wich also takes energy.

Regarding this, no worries, it takes less energy to produce the fuel
than the bio fuel produces. It is getting better and better as
technology goes on. When Brasil started the ethanol project, we used
more diesel (on trucks and boilers) than ethanol produced. Now, we
double the energy, using 1 part of energy produced 2 parts of ethanol
energy. Even biodiesel, which has a tighter ratio, makes more energy
than it takes to produce it. Just depends on the scale factor, make a
quarter and you are wasting energy, make a million gallons and you are
actually producing a lot of energy.

The biggest concern is the price. Example: Sugar is more expensive than
ethanol produced from the cane sugar plant, so the cost of the ethanol
is the cost of the sugar they stopped producing. Gets too expensive,
but just wait the oil rise a little more and watch the price of the
sugar skyrocket, while ethanol gets cheaper. That's the same with
biodiesel, but biodiesel the ratio of energy produced is less and the
cost of vegetal oil is too high right now. High quality raw castor bean
oil can cost waaaay more than fossil oil.

> Then the question comes is there enough land to produce the needed
> biomass to make this really feasable?

This is a real problem, but cientists are working on it. For now, let's
say that we need more land, we have this land, but nobody uses it
(parts of latin america with destroyed forests that land is now almost
useless, africa, asia and other third world countries with devastated
forests), will cost a lot to prepare this land to practical use...

How I know this stuff? I am graduating economics school this year and
my graduation project is a global study on bio fuel...

-- Tiago

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 20.07.2006 22:22:34 von Rex McKinney

"Tiago Rocha" <> wrote in message
news:

>
> How I know this stuff? I am graduating economics school this year and
> my graduation project is a global study on bio fuel...
>

Thanks for the response, and congrats on graduating!


Rex McKinney

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 20.07.2006 22:48:50 von DirtCrashr

>> ...when gas prices go up, these people don't rush out to buy more
>> hybrids. "They buy a Chevy Aveo," says Spinella. "It delivers the same
>> fuel economy as a Prius, but at half the price."
>
>
> But it doesn't produce that smug, "I'm better than you" attitude in those
>that drive it. South Park did an show on hybrids that was a hoot making fun
>of those people.
>
> Rex McKinney

I am so surrounded by those people it's not even funny. You can't
swing a dead cat without hitting one - and mostly it's because of the
privileged car-pool lane access - which it shouldn't allow, a solo
driver is a solo driver.

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 02:09:20 von Geoff Glave

"DirtCrashr" <> wrote in message
news:

> I am so surrounded by those people it's not even funny. You can't
> swing a dead cat without hitting one - and mostly it's because of the
> privileged car-pool lane access - which it shouldn't allow, a solo
> driver is a solo driver.

You knuckle dragging redneck.

I make a point to eat plenty of legumes prior to driving the wife's
Prius around. Windows up. Quite enjoyable. Just ask Wuds.

-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 02:11:11 von Geoff Glave

"Rex McKinney" <> wrote in message
news:

> I have a lingering question about bio fuel and I really don't know the
> answer to. Does it use as much energy as fossil fuel to produce? You
> have plant it and harvest it which requires fertilizer, tractors, ect.
> Then it has to be converted to a usable fuel wich also takes energy.
>
> Then the question comes is there enough land to produce the needed
> biomass to make this really feasable?

Far better and more efficient that grain fuels:



You have to ask yourself why you don't hear more about this. Rather
that harvesting only the grain from a plant for fuel, you can insert any
organic material and produce a light oil.

-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 03:42:38 von dsc

Tiago Rocha wrote:
> DirtCrashr wrote:
> > Heh, the sales are off (except probably around here where one of those
> > bastards is a smug ticket to the solo car-pool lane):
> >
> > Heh.
>
> We don't need hybrids, we need bio fuel, we already have the engines,
> we already have the distribution network, we already know how to
> produce the fuel and it works on our vehicles we have parked outside.
> But... bio fuel for existing vehicles does not sell new more expensive
> and hype'd vehicles, does it?
>
> -- Tiago

I'm not sure that's all it's cracked up to be either. It takes a lot of
energy to make that stuff too...

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 03:43:00 von dsc

Tiago Rocha wrote:
> DirtCrashr wrote:
> > Heh, the sales are off (except probably around here where one of those
> > bastards is a smug ticket to the solo car-pool lane):
> >
> > Heh.
>
> We don't need hybrids, we need bio fuel, we already have the engines,
> we already have the distribution network, we already know how to
> produce the fuel and it works on our vehicles we have parked outside.
> But... bio fuel for existing vehicles does not sell new more expensive
> and hype'd vehicles, does it?
>
> -- Tiago

I'm not sure that's all it's cracked up to be either. It takes a lot of
energy to make that stuff too...

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 03:46:07 von dsc

Tiago Rocha wrote:
> Rex McKinney wrote:
> > "Tiago Rocha" <> wrote in message
> > > We don't need hybrids, we need bio fuel, we already have the engines,
> > > we already have the distribution network, we already know how to
> > > produce the fuel and it works on our vehicles we have parked outside.
> > > But... bio fuel for existing vehicles does not sell new more expensive
> > > and hype'd vehicles, does it?
> > >
> >
> >
> > I have a lingering question about bio fuel and I really don't know the
> > answer to. Does it use as much energy as fossil fuel to produce? You have
> > plant it and harvest it which requires fertilizer, tractors, ect. Then it
> > has to be converted to a usable fuel wich also takes energy.
>
> Regarding this, no worries, it takes less energy to produce the fuel
> than the bio fuel produces. It is getting better and better as
> technology goes on. When Brasil started the ethanol project, we used
> more diesel (on trucks and boilers) than ethanol produced. Now, we
> double the energy, using 1 part of energy produced 2 parts of ethanol
> energy. Even biodiesel, which has a tighter ratio, makes more energy
> than it takes to produce it. Just depends on the scale factor, make a
> quarter and you are wasting energy, make a million gallons and you are
> actually producing a lot of energy.
>
> The biggest concern is the price. Example: Sugar is more expensive than
> ethanol produced from the cane sugar plant, so the cost of the ethanol
> is the cost of the sugar they stopped producing. Gets too expensive,
> but just wait the oil rise a little more and watch the price of the
> sugar skyrocket, while ethanol gets cheaper. That's the same with
> biodiesel, but biodiesel the ratio of energy produced is less and the
> cost of vegetal oil is too high right now. High quality raw castor bean
> oil can cost waaaay more than fossil oil.
>
> > Then the question comes is there enough land to produce the needed
> > biomass to make this really feasable?
>
> This is a real problem, but cientists are working on it. For now, let's
> say that we need more land, we have this land, but nobody uses it
> (parts of latin america with destroyed forests that land is now almost
> useless, africa, asia and other third world countries with devastated
> forests), will cost a lot to prepare this land to practical use...
>
> How I know this stuff? I am graduating economics school this year and
> my graduation project is a global study on bio fuel...

There are probably millions of acres of wasted land in the US...
between interstate highways... :)

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 05:13:42 von scrapeNOTHANKS

On 20 Jul 2006 09:37:56 -0700, "Tiago Rocha"
<> wrote:

>We don't need hybrids, we need bio fuel, we already have the engines,
>we already have the distribution network, we already know how to
>produce the fuel and it works on our vehicles we have parked outside.
>But... bio fuel for existing vehicles does not sell new more expensive
>and hype'd vehicles, does it?

Exactly.
And when everyone starts driving bio-diesel cars, there will be more
gas for me.

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 05:15:26 von scrapeNOTHANKS

On 20 Jul 2006 11:08:48 -0700, "Tiago Rocha"
<> wrote:

>How I know this stuff? I am graduating economics school this year and
>my graduation project is a global study on bio fuel...

I'm thinking there's a high paying job for you somewhere in the US if
you want it.

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 14:44:13 von aldavis

I've been eyeballng the wasted space around cloverleafs. With a few
tunnels each could have a nice mx track.


> There are probably millions of acres of wasted land in the US...
> between interstate highways... :)

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 14:45:58 von diariodastrilhas

scrape wrote:
> On 20 Jul 2006 11:08:48 -0700, "Tiago Rocha"
> <> wrote:
>
> >How I know this stuff? I am graduating economics school this year and
> >my graduation project is a global study on bio fuel...
>
> I'm thinking there's a high paying job for you somewhere in the US if
> you want it.

University of Idaho, in Boise, has a good project going on this
subject. I got a lot of material for my project from their website. I
think I should apply for a master degree there... :-)

-- Tiago

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 18:58:22 von DirtCrashr

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:09:20 GMT, "Jeff Deeney" <>
wrote:

>> I am so surrounded by those people it's not even funny. You can't
>> swing a dead cat without hitting one - and mostly it's because of the
>> privileged car-pool lane access - which it shouldn't allow, a solo
>> driver is a solo driver.
>
>You knuckle dragging redneck.

Thank you for the compliment! I've been working on releasing my inner
redneck, I had to give up pilates to find the time.

>I make a point to eat plenty of legumes prior to driving the wife's
>Prius around. Windows up. Quite enjoyable. Just ask Wuds.

What's a legume?

>-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA

-k

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 19:10:35 von DirtCrashr

"Tiago Rocha" <> wrote:

>> >How I know this stuff? I am graduating economics school this year and
>> >my graduation project is a global study on bio fuel...
>>
>> I'm thinking there's a high paying job for you somewhere in the US if
>> you want it.
>
>University of Idaho, in Boise, has a good project going on this
>subject. I got a lot of material for my project from their website. I
>think I should apply for a master degree there... :-)
>
>-- Tiago


If you want easy access to serious biofuel starter-material you have
to go south where the Kudzu grows.

How do you like the work of Economist Hernando de Soto?

-k

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 20:16:07 von Geoff Glave

"DirtCrashr" <> wrote in message
news:

> What's a legume?
Legume

n 1: an erect or climbing bean or pea plant of the family Leguminosae [syn:
leguminous plant] 2: the fruit or seed of any of various bean or pea plants
consisting of a two-valved case that splits along both sides when ripe and
having the seeds attached to one edge of the valves 3: the seedpod of a
leguminous plant (such as peas or beans or lentils)


-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 20:42:44 von Dave_Sparkman

With DJ claiming that this may be his last spudfest, I officially
nominate you as the next Idaho spodefest non-organizer!

-Dave-




Tiago Rocha wrote:

> University of Idaho, in Boise, has a good project going on this
> subject. I got a lot of material for my project from their website. I
> think I should apply for a master degree there... :-)
>
> -- Tiago

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 20:53:35 von diariodastrilhas

DirtCrashr wrote:

>
> If you want easy access to serious biofuel starter-material you have
> to go south where the Kudzu grows.

Erhm... I don't know what is Kudzu... :-(

>
> How do you like the work of Economist Hernando de Soto?

I don't know him. How about Steven Levitt? This guy is a genious!


-- Tiago

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 21:03:55 von John

"Tiago Rocha" <> wrote in message
news:
> DirtCrashr wrote:
>
>>
>> If you want easy access to serious biofuel starter-material you have
>> to go south where the Kudzu grows.
>
> Erhm... I don't know what is Kudzu... :-(
>



>> How do you like the work of Economist Hernando de Soto?
>

(economist)

> I don't know him. How about Steven Levitt? This guy is a genious!
>
>
> -- Tiago
>

re freakonomics....Statistics are Like POW's the
more you torture them they will say what you want

john
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 21.07.2006 22:25:56 von diariodastrilhas

john wrote:
> "Tiago Rocha" <> wrote in message
> news:
> > DirtCrashr wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> If you want easy access to serious biofuel starter-material you have
> >> to go south where the Kudzu grows.
> >
> > Erhm... I don't know what is Kudzu... :-(
> >
>
>

Oh, John Arnett talked about this weed during our trip back in 2004. I
remember it. He showed me a lamp post where this weed climbed it.
Amazing.

>
> >> How do you like the work of Economist Hernando de Soto?
> >
>
> (economist)

Interesting. This name was not unfamiliar, but I did not know his work.
I know a lot about CEPAL (Comisi=F3n Econ=F3mica para America Latina), a
Chile based economic center.


>
> > I don't know him. How about Steven Levitt? This guy is a genious!
> >
> >
> > -- Tiago
> >
>
> re freakonomics....Statistics are Like POW's the
> more you torture them they will say what you want

While I agree with that, he has nice arguments.
=20
-- Tiago

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 22.07.2006 00:29:17 von DirtCrashr

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:16:07 GMT, "Jeff Deeney" <>
wrote:

>
>"DirtCrashr" <> wrote in message
>news:
>
>> What's a legume?
>Legume
>
>n 1: an erect or climbing bean or pea plant of the family Leguminosae [syn:
>leguminous plant] 2: the fruit or seed of any of various bean or pea plants
>consisting of a two-valved case that splits along both sides when ripe and
>having the seeds attached to one edge of the valves 3: the seedpod of a
>leguminous plant (such as peas or beans or lentils)

A little asofotida will take care of that easy gas, but nothign can
stoip the rip of excess protein, have a steak and a protein shake.



>-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
>'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
>We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 22.07.2006 00:37:54 von DirtCrashr

On 21 Jul 2006 13:25:56 -0700, "Tiago Rocha"
<> wrote:

>> > Erhm... I don't know what is Kudzu... :-(
>> >
>>
>>
>
>Oh, John Arnett talked about this weed during our trip back in 2004. I
>remember it. He showed me a lamp post where this weed climbed it.
>Amazing.

It grows like crazy and they need to chop it back all the time, but I
think they lost the war against it.


>> >> How do you like the work of Economist Hernando de Soto?
>> >
>>
>> (economist)
>
>Interesting. This name was not unfamiliar, but I did not know his work.
>I know a lot about CEPAL (Comisión Económica para America Latina), a
>Chile based economic center.
>

I first read about him in an Airline magazine about 3rd World economic
development - how in many countries the money is there but
un-obtainable because 1.) it is locked up in bureaucracies that take
too long to reach or , 2.) when assets that might be used to get a
loan require equivalent in bribes 3.) when people can't get Title to
inherited property because the Law is so unclear and other people can
lay claim to it for years and years.
In many poor countries it's like the Bank is full of money, but it's
closed...

>> > I don't know him. How about Steven Levitt? This guy is a genious!
>> >
>> >
>> > -- Tiago
>> >
>>
>> re freakonomics....Statistics are Like POW's the
>> more you torture them they will say what you want
>
>While I agree with that, he has nice arguments.
>
>-- Tiago

Unintended consequences is always fun to read!

Re: Hybrid vehicles' overall energy costs exceed those of comparable non-hybrids

am 22.07.2006 01:40:45 von Geoff Glave

"DirtCrashr" <> wrote in message
news:

> A little asofotida will take care of that easy gas, but nothign can
> stoip the rip of excess protein, have a steak and a protein shake.

<gasp>

Red meat ????

It's people like you that are spoiling the experience for the rest of
us.

-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.