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#1: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-16 19:00:20 by diariodastrilhas

Hi!

A quick question about clutches.

My bike was hard to find neutral. I understand that I can file the
clutch basket fingers, because they are grooved and the plates sticks.

I just disassembled clutch. The grooves are minimal. I just filed them.
So, I grabed the service manual and a caliper and started measuring
things. Plates are ok, spacers are ok, everything in spec. Except for
the clutch springs. The service manual (OEM) calls for 44.7mm. I got
measures ranging from 34.9mm to 35.5mm. I am right to assume that my
neutral problem is due to worn and tired springs? My clutch does not
slip a lot, just a little bit, what I believe it is normal, since the
plates are have 3.2mm and the manual says limit is 2.7mm, so, the
little slipping I got is due to being half milimeter to reach limit?

Well, it does not end here. Riveted to the alluminium clutch basket,
there is a heavy steel gear, that has six springs that I don't see a
way to remove them. They are loose, five out of the six springs are
really loose and I found where comes a rattling noise when I pull
clutch in. This loosenes is a serious problem? The clutch basket is
almost brand new, I'd hate to buy a new part if all the springs do is
avoid clutch rattle. I can live with clutch rattle if nothing else will
be damaged.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Tiago
-- With dirt fingernails

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#2: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-17 15:17:48 by diariodastrilhas

The clutch basket filing gave good results, but still is hard to find
neutral. Easier than before, but still, not good.

I think I will replace the clutch springs... Still puzzled about the
springs on the gear behind the basket...

-- Tiago

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#3: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-17 20:23:03 by outofthe

On 16 Jul 2006 10:00:20 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt; The service manual (OEM) calls for 44.7mm. I got
&gt;measures ranging from 34.9mm to 35.5mm. I am right to assume that my
&gt;neutral problem is due to worn and tired springs?

That seems like a HUGE amount for spring fatigue... an unbelievable amount.
My first instincts are measurement error, wrong springs added in the past,
or bad data in the manual. Fatigue isn't on my list but maybe it's
possible?

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P

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#4: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-17 21:39:14 by diariodastrilhas

Mike W. wrote:
&gt; On 16 Jul 2006 10:00:20 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; The service manual (OEM) calls for 44.7mm. I got
&gt; &gt;measures ranging from 34.9mm to 35.5mm. I am right to assume that my
&gt; &gt;neutral problem is due to worn and tired springs?
&gt;
&gt; That seems like a HUGE amount for spring fatigue... an unbelievable amount.
&gt; My first instincts are measurement error, wrong springs added in the past,
&gt; or bad data in the manual. Fatigue isn't on my list but maybe it's
&gt; possible?

Measure is correct, triple checked. The springs are the one that Honda
installed back in 2002 when they produced the bike. I do believe that
the manual should read 34.7, but it reads 44.7... I am thinking on
taking the caliper to a parts store, order one spring and measure it.
If it measures more than 44.7, I buy 4 right away, but I am inclined to
believe they are going to be on the range 35~40mm...

If I had almost one centimeter of wear on the springs, wouldn't my
clutch slip like mad? Weird it that the clutch is not slipping (just a
very little bit) and the original factory plates are within specs,
almost on the limit, but still within specs.

What are the springs behind the clutch basked for? There isn't even a
picture or a drawing of them on the service manual.

-- Tiago

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#5: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-17 22:09:07 by XR650L_Dave

Tiago Rocha wrote:

&gt; What are the springs behind the clutch basked for? There isn't even a
&gt; picture or a drawing of them on the service manual.
&gt;
&gt; -- Tiago

Those springs might provide some give in the drivetrain, similar to
what a cushion-hub is used for. (I'm picturing a set of springs
arranged in a circle inside a gear or the back of the clutch basket)

Is this a dualsport bike (street-legal)?

DDave

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#6: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-17 22:28:23 by diariodastrilhas

XR650L_Dave wrote:
&gt; Tiago Rocha wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; What are the springs behind the clutch basked for? There isn't even a
&gt; &gt; picture or a drawing of them on the service manual.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; -- Tiago
&gt;
&gt; Those springs might provide some give in the drivetrain, similar to
&gt; what a cushion-hub is used for. (I'm picturing a set of springs
&gt; arranged in a circle inside a gear or the back of the clutch basket)

Yup, you have described them very well.

&gt;
&gt; Is this a dualsport bike (street-legal)?

It is. But also, the rear hub does not have rubber bushings, the
sprocket is bolted directly on the hub. Honda does make a CBX250 with
the same engine, maybe it is the same clutch? The springs may be loose
because there is no rubber on the hub, so all the load (first gear on
hard concrete pavement, &lt;clonk&gt; on the gear box) goes to those springs?
The CBX has rubber on the hub. My NX200 did not had springs on the
basket but had rubber on the hub.

-- Tiago

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#7: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-17 22:49:39 by XR650L_Dave

Tiago Rocha wrote:
&gt; XR650L_Dave wrote:
&gt; &gt; Tiago Rocha wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; What are the springs behind the clutch basked for? There isn't even a
&gt; &gt; &gt; picture or a drawing of them on the service manual.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; -- Tiago
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Those springs might provide some give in the drivetrain, similar to
&gt; &gt; what a cushion-hub is used for. (I'm picturing a set of springs
&gt; &gt; arranged in a circle inside a gear or the back of the clutch basket)
&gt;
&gt; Yup, you have described them very well.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Is this a dualsport bike (street-legal)?
&gt;
&gt; It is. But also, the rear hub does not have rubber bushings, the
&gt; sprocket is bolted directly on the hub. Honda does make a CBX250 with
&gt; the same engine, maybe it is the same clutch? The springs may be loose
&gt; because there is no rubber on the hub, so all the load (first gear on
&gt; hard concrete pavement, &lt;clonk&gt; on the gear box) goes to those springs?
&gt; The CBX has rubber on the hub. My NX200 did not had springs on the
&gt; basket but had rubber on the hub.
&gt;
&gt; -- Tiago

I think they use the springs on bikes where they don't use the rubber
in the hub.

DDave

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#8: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-17 22:54:18 by outofthe

On 17 Jul 2006 12:39:14 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;
&gt;Mike W. wrote:
&gt;&gt; On 16 Jul 2006 10:00:20 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; The service manual (OEM) calls for 44.7mm. I got
&gt;&gt; &gt;measures ranging from 34.9mm to 35.5mm. I am right to assume that my
&gt;&gt; &gt;neutral problem is due to worn and tired springs?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; That seems like a HUGE amount for spring fatigue... an unbelievable amount.
&gt;&gt; My first instincts are measurement error, wrong springs added in the past,
&gt;&gt; or bad data in the manual. Fatigue isn't on my list but maybe it's
&gt;&gt; possible?
&gt;
&gt;Measure is correct, triple checked. The springs are the one that Honda
&gt;installed back in 2002 when they produced the bike. I do believe that
&gt;the manual should read 34.7, but it reads 44.7... I am thinking on
&gt;taking the caliper to a parts store, order one spring and measure it.
&gt;If it measures more than 44.7, I buy 4 right away, but I am inclined to
&gt;believe they are going to be on the range 35~40mm...
&gt;
&gt;If I had almost one centimeter of wear on the springs, wouldn't my
&gt;clutch slip like mad? Weird it that the clutch is not slipping (just a
&gt;very little bit) and the original factory plates are within specs,
&gt;almost on the limit, but still within specs.

I think you hit on the correct explanation... a misprint. Well... unless
you're working in European millimeters. I'm pretty sure your bike is spec'd
all around in Asian millimeters.

&gt;
&gt;What are the springs behind the clutch basked for? There isn't even a
&gt;picture or a drawing of them on the service manual.

I do believe Dave kilt that one dead for you.

Mike

&gt;
&gt;-- Tiago

--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P

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#9: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-18 16:34:31 by diariodastrilhas

Mike W. wrote:
&gt; On 17 Jul 2006 12:39:14 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; I think you hit on the correct explanation... a misprint. Well... unless
&gt; you're working in European millimeters. I'm pretty sure your bike is spec'd
&gt; all around in Asian millimeters.

I just checked with another manual, that says the range is 35.5~34.7mm.
My copy of the manual is wrong...

Why asian milimeters are shorter? :-)


-- Tiago

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#10: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-18 18:11:40 by outofthe

On 18 Jul 2006 07:34:31 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;Mike W. wrote:
&gt;&gt; On 17 Jul 2006 12:39:14 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I think you hit on the correct explanation... a misprint. Well... unless
&gt;&gt; you're working in European millimeters. I'm pretty sure your bike is spec'd
&gt;&gt; all around in Asian millimeters.
&gt;
&gt;I just checked with another manual, that says the range is 35.5~34.7mm.
&gt;My copy of the manual is wrong...
&gt;
&gt;Why asian milimeters are shorter? :-)

I got this off Ameriweb... a special part of the internet set aside only
for Americans... I don't think I'll get in trouble posting just an excerpt:

&quot;The Asian, or so-called Whitworth mm was reduced relative to the Imperial
mm shortly after WW2 as a result of the work of W. Edwards Deming in
re-creating the Japanese post-war economy. On each his many visits, Dr.
Deming was accompanied by a hand-picked staff of experts in various
domains. For his visits dealing with the Japanese manufacturing sector, he
was slated to be accompanied by Andy Wilgoos, a celebrated machine tool
maker and ultimately Chief Engineer of Pratt &amp; Whitney. But his invitation
was somehow routed to Andy Whitworth, the destitute grandson of Joseph
Whitworth.. Father of the &quot;local thread standard&quot;. Whitworth accepted,
merely to be able to eat, as his family name was increasingly loathed and
ostracized for the failure of the BSW system and he could not find work of
any kind.

Based upon Deming's previous staff encounters, Whitworth's ramblings, which
were nothing more than recountings and stories he had heard from his
grandfather and later, father (also destitute), were taken as gospel by his
Japanese hosts. One of these was the &quot;invention&quot; of the &quot;lead screw&quot;. In
this usage, we mean lead as in the element lead... not lead screw as in
&quot;positioning device&quot;. During a visit to a factory in Fukuoka, he observed a
worker having difficulty removing a bolt from a swing arm assembly.
Whitworth posited that if the screw were lead, he could just melt it out.
Despite the cautions thrown up by the experienced machine tool makers, the
lead screw was adopted whole heartedly by Japanese industry... only to be
banned three months later by imperial proclamation when the death count
exceeded 40,000 in the first 3 months. It was on that same visit to Fukuoka
that Whitworth found a potential systemic error in the use of rulers. He
believed that the characteristic narrowing of the Asian eye would lead to
increased parallax error relative to measurements made in western
countries, so he specified a reduction in all linear measurements by a
factor he worked out on his fingers during the tour. The Whitworth mm was
named after him.

Whitworth continued lived a quiet and still destitute life thereafter. He
was invited to speak at the 1971 Atlanta Conference for Mechanics and
Repair Professionals. He attended but was not seen again after he checked
into his hotel room.&quot;

HTH... good luck. Maybe I can send you a Japanese ruler?

Mike

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;-- Tiago

--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P

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#11: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-18 18:37:30 by diariodastrilhas

Mike W. wrote:

&lt;snip&gt;

&gt; HTH... good luck. Maybe I can send you a Japanese ruler?

fascinating stuff!! LOL!

Thanks, but I need just the conversion charter...

--Tiago
dang, now I have to throw away all my tools

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#12: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-18 19:19:24 by outofthe

On 18 Jul 2006 09:37:30 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;Mike W. wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; HTH... good luck. Maybe I can send you a Japanese ruler?
&gt;
&gt;fascinating stuff!! LOL!
&gt;
&gt;Thanks, but I need just the conversion charter...

No problem... what is your glove size (Italian)?

&gt;
&gt;--Tiago
&gt;dang, now I have to throw away all my tools

I collect them... I'll take em.

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P

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#13: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-18 19:27:12 by DirtCrashr

Mike W. &lt;<a href="mailto:outofthe&#64;emailbiz.com" target="_blank">outofthe&#64;emailbiz.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;HTH... good luck. Maybe I can send you a Japanese ruler?
&gt;
&gt;Mike

Tojo in a box?

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#14: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-18 19:34:14 by diariodastrilhas

Mike W. wrote:
&gt; On 18 Jul 2006 09:37:30 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Mike W. wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&lt;snip&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; HTH... good luck. Maybe I can send you a Japanese ruler?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;fascinating stuff!! LOL!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Thanks, but I need just the conversion charter...
&gt;
&gt; No problem... what is your glove size (Italian)?

It was the same as US gloves, medium... :-)

&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;--Tiago
&gt; &gt;dang, now I have to throw away all my tools
&gt;
&gt; I collect them... I'll take em.

Does USPS takes &quot;paid by destination&quot; packages? If so, send your
mailing address... It will be a heavy box of Tramontina tools...


-- Tiago

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#15: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-18 19:48:34 by Geoff Glave

&quot;Mike W.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:outofthe&#64;emailbiz.com" target="_blank">outofthe&#64;emailbiz.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:drtpb21jhua66bmemb90puah65bmm8djj3&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">drtpb21jhua66bmemb90puah65bmm8djj3&#64;4ax.com...</a>

&gt; maker and ultimately Chief Engineer of Pratt &amp; Whitney. But his invitation
&gt; was somehow routed to Andy Whitworth, the destitute grandson of Joseph
&gt; Whitworth.. Father of the &quot;local thread standard&quot;. Whitworth accepted,

Wasn't Whitworth a second cousin to Lord Julian Spagthorpe?

-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.

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#16: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-19 16:52:13 by outofthe

On 18 Jul 2006 10:34:14 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;
&gt;Mike W. wrote:
&gt;&gt; On 18 Jul 2006 09:37:30 -0700, &quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;Mike W. wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; HTH... good luck. Maybe I can send you a Japanese ruler?
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;fascinating stuff!! LOL!
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;Thanks, but I need just the conversion charter...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; No problem... what is your glove size (Italian)?
&gt;
&gt;It was the same as US gloves, medium... :-)

I have a day tearing my hair in Milan shopping for a US glove size for my
wife they didn't carry there. But fine... I'll try and work with your
answer.

For measurements less than your inter-pupil distance, divide by 0.87.
For measurements greater than your inter-pupil distance, multiply by 0.87

The shmoo factor on this is as you approach your come with +/- 10% of your
inter-pupil distance, you should apply a hyperbolic blend to avoid any
discontinuities. For distances greater than 10 times the width of your
head, multiply by a hyperbolically decreasing 0.87.

Don't forget to relabel your sockets.

&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;--Tiago
&gt;&gt; &gt;dang, now I have to throw away all my tools
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I collect them... I'll take em.
&gt;
&gt;Does USPS takes &quot;paid by destination&quot; packages? If so, send your
&gt;mailing address... It will be a heavy box of Tramontina tools...

I'm sorry.. you'll need to cover that. I'll send you some Starbucks coupons
though.

Mike

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;-- Tiago

--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P

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#17: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-19 16:53:31 by outofthe

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:48:34 GMT, &quot;Jeff Deeney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&quot;Mike W.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:outofthe&#64;emailbiz.com" target="_blank">outofthe&#64;emailbiz.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:drtpb21jhua66bmemb90puah65bmm8djj3&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">drtpb21jhua66bmemb90puah65bmm8djj3&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt; maker and ultimately Chief Engineer of Pratt &amp; Whitney. But his invitation
&gt;&gt; was somehow routed to Andy Whitworth, the destitute grandson of Joseph
&gt;&gt; Whitworth.. Father of the &quot;local thread standard&quot;. Whitworth accepted,
&gt;
&gt;Wasn't Whitworth a second cousin to Lord Julian Spagthorpe?

I believe so. KfP was supposedly also a relative.

M

&gt;
&gt;-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
&gt;'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
&gt;We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.
&gt;

--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P

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#18: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-21 17:22:09 by Rowdy

Tiago Rocha wrote:
&gt; Hi!
&gt;
&gt; A quick question about clutches.
&gt;
&gt; My bike was hard to find neutral. I understand that I can file the
&gt; clutch basket fingers, because they are grooved and the plates sticks.

Filing is one option. But:

I had the very same problem, my WR450F's clutch would drag like
a LC4 620SC of old, neutral nowhere to be found.

I got me _all_ plates, steel and friction complete with that torsion
dish spring at the inside, and upon taking apart the clutch i found
a very distinctive groove on the surface of one of those _steel_ plates.

I've no idea how a tiny, hard particle (abrasion?) managed to get
trapped between clutch plates but that definitely was the cause.
I didn't bother to file them clutch basket fingers, i just replaced
all the plates and the clutch was perfect ever since.

HTH
Rowdy

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#19: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-21 21:01:42 by diariodastrilhas

Rowdy wrote:
&gt; Tiago Rocha wrote:
&gt; &gt; Hi!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; A quick question about clutches.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; My bike was hard to find neutral. I understand that I can file the
&gt; &gt; clutch basket fingers, because they are grooved and the plates sticks.
&gt;
&gt; Filing is one option. But:
&gt;
&gt; I had the very same problem, my WR450F's clutch would drag like
&gt; a LC4 620SC of old, neutral nowhere to be found.
&gt;
&gt; I got me _all_ plates, steel and friction complete with that torsion
&gt; dish spring at the inside, and upon taking apart the clutch i found
&gt; a very distinctive groove on the surface of one of those _steel_ plates.
&gt;
&gt; I've no idea how a tiny, hard particle (abrasion?) managed to get
&gt; trapped between clutch plates but that definitely was the cause.
&gt; I didn't bother to file them clutch basket fingers, i just replaced
&gt; all the plates and the clutch was perfect ever since.

I've heard this happen on the new 150cc honda engines. Engines with
less than 10,000km with destroyed clutch, steel plates, fiber plates,
clutch covers, bottom of basket, all parts grooved and damaged beyond
believable. I don't know, but I suspect dirt is getting through the
engine case vents, that's the only way I see such a damage happen...

Neutral is easier now on my bike, not perfect, because I have not filed
a lot, just a little bit. I should have filed more, because it is a lot
of work to remove the clutch to do it again...

-- Tiago

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#20: Re: Clutch question

Posted on 2006-07-21 21:16:17 by jayc

&gt; I've heard this happen on the new 150cc honda engines. Engines with
&gt; less than 10,000km with destroyed clutch, steel plates, fiber plates,
&gt; clutch covers, bottom of basket, all parts grooved and damaged beyond
&gt; believable. I don't know, but I suspect dirt is getting through the
&gt; engine case vents, that's the only way I see such a damage happen...

Does the 150 have an oil filter, or it is like the 80 and 100 w/o one?
With no filter, this sort of thing wouldn't be all too suprising.

Jay

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