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#1: Help my GS500E will not start....

Posted on 2005-11-30 11:19:04 by ConnectPJ

Can anyone offer me some advice ? My GS500E (1997) refuses to start.
The battery is good, bike has fuel, I've taken the plugs out and seen a
healthy spark, the choke cable is working and pulling out the choke on
the carb, there is fuel in the carb (which I've drained twice using
that little draining screw, then primed using the Primer fuel position,
the put it back to fuel ON) but it still refuses to start. The engine
turns over and I get a very loud backfire, but it won't run.

Do you think its a timing problem ? I guess the fact its backfiring
means the plugs are igniting the fuel but in the wrong part of the
cycle. Any ideas ? Unfortunately I'm two miles from my local garage
and they charge =A340 to pick it up and transport it to them. If I can
get it going I can drive it to them to service and save myself =A340.
Many Thanks for any advice.

PJ

Report this message

#2: Re: Help my GS500E will not start....

Posted on 2005-11-30 14:05:44 by Direct Action

<a href="mailto:ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Can anyone offer me some advice ? My GS500E (1997) refuses to start.
&gt; The battery is good, bike has fuel, I've taken the plugs out and seen a
&gt; healthy spark, the choke cable is working and pulling out the choke on
&gt; the carb,

Your motorbike doesn't have a &quot;choke&quot;. It has a starting enrichener
device which is a bypass passage around the throttle butterfly. When
you move the &quot;choke&quot; lever to the ON position, you are actually moving
a small plunger out of the way of air being sucked through the bypass.
There is no venturi in that small diameter passage, so your engine is
basically trying to suck gasoline out of the float bowl through a
straw.

When the idle jets start getting plugged up, owners will notice that
the engine stalls when they roll off the throttle. So the owner turns
the master idle knob up to keep the engine from stalling. This action
opens the butterflies further and there is less vacuum
downstream of the butterflies. The starting enrichener stops working.

Your engine should start without turning the twist grip when you put
the &quot;choke&quot; in the ON position. All you should need to do is turn the
key on and push the starter button. The engine should start and idle at
a reasonable RPM without fiddling about with the twist grip.

So you want to turn the master idle knob counterclockwise all the way
to get the throttle butterflies closed all the way in order to maximize
vacuum at the starting enrichener. After the engine starts and warms
up, you can re-adjust the idle RPM to the number specified in the
manual or on the decal which is probably under the seat.

there is fuel in the carb (which I've drained twice using
&gt; that little draining screw, then primed using the Primer fuel position,
&gt; the put it back to fuel ON) but it still refuses to start. The engine
&gt; turns over and I get a very loud backfire, but it won't run.

Good. You know how to drain the float bowls and prime them. But your
idle mixture jets and passages are probably plugged up. Backfires out
the carburetor are caused by lean mixture which settles out in the
intake tract because it was too weak to burn on the first attempt to
start the engine.

You need to find a commercial carburetor cleaner containing xylene,
acetone, and alcohol. Fuel injector cleaners containing petroleum
distillate won't do the job.

Mix it 50/50 with gasoline and squirt that mixture into the empty float
bowls. Leave the mixture in the float bowls for about half an hour,
then start the engine and burn the mixture. You may have to remove the
air intake hoses between the carburetors and the airbox and hand choke
the carbs.

You can also put about 3 or 4 ounces of xylene/acetone/alcohol into the
gas tank and ride the motorcycle slowly to make the carburetors suck
the mixture through the idle jets. That should be a regular annual
maintenance item on motorbikes with carburetors.
&gt;
&gt; Do you think its a timing problem ? I guess the fact its backfiring
&gt; means the plugs are igniting the fuel but in the wrong part of the
&gt; cycle.

No, electronic ignition systems rarely get out of time, if ever.
However, many owners don't understand the spark plug cleaning regimen.
They think it's done well enough if they remove the carbon from the
tips. But it's also necessary to file the center electrode flat so the
edges are sharp. This reduces the amount of voltage required for the
spark to jump the gap.

Motorbike engines with worn, eroded spark plugs initially behave like
the mixture is very lean, then the engine floods and backfires from the
build up of unburned fuel, mystifying the owner.

Any ideas ? Unfortunately I'm two miles from my local garage
&gt; and they charge =A340 to pick it up and transport it to them. If I can
&gt; get it going I can drive it to them to service and save myself =A340.

This is the reason I despise $tealer$hips. They are out to rape the
customer for all they can get, charging $50 to $60 USD for an hour's
minor effort and taking advantage of customer ignorance about the tiny
passages in the carburetors which get plugged up when gasoline
evaporates. That's why I go through all the effort to tell owners how
to clean their carbs out.

There's one other problem that can cause the engine to spit back
through the carbs and be very hard to start. Valve guide oil seals wear
out and leak oil down onto the valve heads. The oil carburizes from the
heat, turning hard and black. The buildup of carbon on the valve heads
keeps the valve from sealing and air is pushed backwards through the
carburetors and the engine is hard to start.

If you check your intake valve clearance and find you don't have any
clearance at all, it's posssible that there is a buildup of carburized
oil on the valve heads and there are gasoline additives that will
remove the deposits, over a period of time. But the intake valves can
get so hot they burn and pit. I've seen intake valves that look
likemice chewed on them.

Another reason for no valve clearance is that the valve seats have
eroded away, allowing the valve to &quot;sink&quot; into the head, taking up the
clearance. The mode of erosion is tiny welds occuring between the very
hot valve and the very hot valve seat due to lean mixture. The valve
head normally cools itself a bit by contact with the valve seat.
When it can't get rid of the heat, it welds itself instantaneously to
the seat and the weld breaks the next time the valve opens and the
tiniest bit of glowing red hot steel
goes flying out the exhaust port.

If you were experiencing this type of valve erosion, you would hear the
engine &quot;pinging&quot; or &quot;pinking&quot; as they say in the UK as the mixture
prematurely ignited. Pinging erodes the valves and the heads of the
pistons. When you look down the spark plug hole of an engine that is
pinging, you may see a bare alumium patch on top of the piston. Or you
may notice tiny balls of aluminum melted onto the spark plug porcelain.

I wish I could adequately describe the groaning sound a hot engine
makes out the exhaust when the mixture is too lean or it is
pre-igniting.

Report this message

#3: Re: Help my GS500E will not start....

Posted on 2005-11-30 16:14:39 by ConnectPJ

Thanks so much for your reply. I've had my bike for nine years now and
its been no trouble at all as I've taken good care of it. Maybe I
should try and find a course where I can learn how to strip down and
clean my own carbs and other similar jobs. I'd enjoy doing it and not
having to rely on a delar who charges a lot for labour. Can you
recommend any books or wesbites that have pictures I could use to teach
myself ?

Many Thanks

PJ

Report this message

#4: Re: Help my GS500E will not start....

Posted on 2005-11-30 17:18:30 by Direct Action

<a href="mailto:ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Thanks so much for your reply. I've had my bike for nine years now and
&gt; its been no trouble at all as I've taken good care of it. Maybe I
&gt; should try and find a course where I can learn how to strip down and
&gt; clean my own carbs and other similar jobs. I'd enjoy doing it and not
&gt; having to rely on a delar who charges a lot for labour. Can you
&gt; recommend any books or wesbites that have pictures I could use to teach
&gt; myself ?

There's no substitute for curiousity and the desire to learn how things
work. I always had tinker-itis, I just had to see what was inside the
carburetor, under the valve covers, inside the crankcase, etc.

I have probably typed a million words on the subject of the Mikuni and
Keihin carburetors used on Japanese motorbikes and why they get dirty,
what the symptoms are, and how to clean and adjust them right here in
this forum. Just google up &quot;EPA anti-tamper plugs&quot; or &quot;transition
ports&quot; or &quot;idle mixture screws&quot; and you'll get more words than you can
stand.

Clymer, Chilton and Haynes all can supply you with aftermarket repair
manuals for do-it-yourselfers, and of course you can buy the Suzuki
workshop manual that the aftermarket manuals are based upon.

And you can look at the parts diagrams for the carbs at
www.partsfish.com and www.bikebandit.com and the www.factorypro.com
site talks about how to performance tune your carbs using one of their
jet kits. Nobody really needs a jet kit unless they are
setting up an engine for racing, though. The Sudco International
catalog at www.sudco.com has a lot of information for amateur speed
tuners too.

You do need some good tools. A #2 Phillips screwdriver, a 10mm box end
wrench, an 8mm box end wrench, a narrow bladed slot screwdriver that
fits the idle jets exactly,
an electric drill to drill out the anti-tamper plugs, a 1/16th inch
drill and a 3/32's drill, a small sheet metal screw and a pair of
pliers if you are going to actually dismantle the carbs for thorough
cleaning. A large shallow basin of some sort is useful for catching the
solvent you use to clean the carbs and a small stiff brush will agitate
the the worst of the grease and dirt.

You can purchase the xylene/acetone/alcohol carburetor cleaner in two
forms, aerosol and liquid. In the USA, it's sold as Berryman's B-12
Chemtool Choke and Carburetor Cleaner. STP and Gunk also sell similar
products, but B-12 is the only one I'm sure comes in a 15-ounce can of
liquid. The aerosol cans of carb cleaner are handy for spritizing out
all the passageways, which go four ways.

The idle air comes into a pilot air jet in the inlet bell of the
carburetor. The idle gas comes through an idle jet in the float bowl.
The two passages meet and the resulting fuel/air mixture comes out
through three transition ports just downstream of the throttle
butterflies. The fuel/air mixture also comes out through a single port
further downstream.

The latter port is regulated by a tapered idle mixture screw that is
set at the factory and sealed under an anti-tamper plug. I have
described the process for drilling out the anti-tamper plug many times
in this forum and have also described how to preserve the original
setting as well as what to do to re-adjust the screw if some previous
owner has already tampered with it.

Report this message

#5: Re: Help my GS500E will not start....

Posted on 2005-11-30 22:52:27 by phil_leeIHEARTBASHGUARDS

CK wrote:
&gt; <a href="mailto:ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt;&gt; Can anyone offer me some advice ? My GS500E (1997) refuses to start.
&gt;&gt; The battery is good, bike has fuel, I've taken the plugs out and
&gt;&gt; seen a healthy spark, the choke cable is working and pulling out the
&gt;&gt; choke on the carb,
&gt;
&gt; Your motorbike doesn't have a &quot;choke&quot;. It has a starting enrichener
&gt; device which is a bypass passage around the throttle butterfly. When
&gt; you move the &quot;choke&quot; lever to the ON position, you are actually moving
&gt; a small plunger out of the way of air being sucked through the bypass.
&gt; There is no venturi in that small diameter passage, so your engine is
&gt; basically trying to suck gasoline out of the float bowl through a
&gt; straw.
&gt;
&gt; When the idle jets start getting plugged up, owners will notice that
&gt; the engine stalls when they roll off the throttle. So the owner turns
&gt; the master idle knob up to keep the engine from stalling. This action
&gt; opens the butterflies further and there is less vacuum
&gt; downstream of the butterflies. The starting enrichener stops working.
&gt;
&gt; Your engine should start without turning the twist grip when you put
&gt; the &quot;choke&quot; in the ON position. All you should need to do is turn the
&gt; key on and push the starter button. The engine should start and idle
&gt; at a reasonable RPM without fiddling about with the twist grip.
&gt;
&gt; So you want to turn the master idle knob counterclockwise all the way
&gt; to get the throttle butterflies closed all the way in order to
&gt; maximize vacuum at the starting enrichener. After the engine starts
&gt; and warms up, you can re-adjust the idle RPM to the number specified
&gt; in the manual or on the decal which is probably under the seat.
&gt;
&gt; there is fuel in the carb (which I've drained twice using
&gt;&gt; that little draining screw, then primed using the Primer fuel
&gt;&gt; position, the put it back to fuel ON) but it still refuses to start.
&gt;&gt; The engine turns over and I get a very loud backfire, but it won't
&gt;&gt; run.
&gt;
&gt; Good. You know how to drain the float bowls and prime them. But your
&gt; idle mixture jets and passages are probably plugged up. Backfires out
&gt; the carburetor are caused by lean mixture which settles out in the
&gt; intake tract because it was too weak to burn on the first attempt to
&gt; start the engine.
&gt;
&gt; You need to find a commercial carburetor cleaner containing xylene,
&gt; acetone, and alcohol. Fuel injector cleaners containing petroleum
&gt; distillate won't do the job.
&gt;
&gt; Mix it 50/50 with gasoline and squirt that mixture into the empty
&gt; float bowls. Leave the mixture in the float bowls for about half an
&gt; hour, then start the engine and burn the mixture. You may have to
&gt; remove the air intake hoses between the carburetors and the airbox
&gt; and hand choke the carbs.
&gt;
&gt; You can also put about 3 or 4 ounces of xylene/acetone/alcohol into
&gt; the gas tank and ride the motorcycle slowly to make the carburetors
&gt; suck the mixture through the idle jets. That should be a regular
&gt; annual maintenance item on motorbikes with carburetors.

I just put in some B-12 into my gas tank last night, per the bottle's
recommendations: 1oz B-12/gallon gas. However, in the previous paragraph,
you're saying to run the bike solely on solvents through the idle jets to
clean them out? Does this have any ill effects?

Very thorough and clear descriptions on the second half of the post, thanks.
I may begin researching this NG's past more.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Report this message

#6: Re: Help my GS500E will not start....

Posted on 2005-12-01 02:26:40 by Direct Action

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

&gt; I just put in some B-12 into my gas tank last night, per the bottle's
&gt; recommendations: 1oz B-12/gallon gas. However, in the previous paragraph,
&gt; you're saying to run the bike solely on solvents through the idle jets to
&gt; clean them out? Does this have any ill effects?

Actually, I said,
&gt; &gt; Mix it 50/50 with gasoline and squirt that mixture into the empty
&gt; &gt; float bowls.

Yamaha sells a proprietary carb cleaning product that seems to be the
same as B-12, and you can imagine what you would pay for it at a
$tealer$hip. The instructions are to mix it 50/50 with gasoline.

The acetone in carb cleaners will eventually craze plastic, so there is
the possiblity that it will attack the plastic floats. That's why I
only leave it in the float bowls for half an hour.

Report this message

#7: Re: Help my GS500E will not start....

Posted on 2005-12-01 03:09:05 by wendy peffercorn

I would recommend checking out www.thegsreources.com 's forums. They are
about the most knowledgeable group anywhere when it comes to anything Suzuki
GS related.

Furthermore, since your carbs are of the CV (Constant Velocity) type, check
out <a href="http://www.thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm" target="_blank">http://www.thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm</a> . It is a complete
walkthru of disassembly/cleaning of carbs similar to those you have. They
won't be exactly the same, but it should be close enough for you to have a
great reference when you tear into your carbs.


&lt;<a href="mailto:ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1133363679.214752.16770&#64;g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1133363679.214752.16770&#64;g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Thanks so much for your reply. I've had my bike for nine years now and
&gt; its been no trouble at all as I've taken good care of it. Maybe I
&gt; should try and find a course where I can learn how to strip down and
&gt; clean my own carbs and other similar jobs. I'd enjoy doing it and not
&gt; having to rely on a delar who charges a lot for labour. Can you
&gt; recommend any books or wesbites that have pictures I could use to teach
&gt; myself ?
&gt;
&gt; Many Thanks
&gt;
&gt; PJ
&gt;

Report this message

#8: Re: Help my GS500E will not start....

Posted on 2005-12-01 08:47:53 by spamsucks

&quot;CK&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:chas_kinbote&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">chas_kinbote&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in
news:<a href="mailto:1133400400.162134.258410&#64;g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1133400400.162134.258410&#64;g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>:

&gt;
&gt; Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I just put in some B-12 into my gas tank last night, per the bottle's
&gt;&gt; recommendations: 1oz B-12/gallon gas. However, in the previous
&gt;&gt; paragraph, you're saying to run the bike solely on solvents through the
&gt;&gt; idle jets to clean them out? Does this have any ill effects?
&gt;
&gt; Actually, I said,
&gt;&gt; &gt; Mix it 50/50 with gasoline and squirt that mixture into the empty
&gt;&gt; &gt; float bowls.
&gt;
&gt; Yamaha sells a proprietary carb cleaning product that seems to be the
&gt; same as B-12, and you can imagine what you would pay for it at a
&gt; $tealer$hip. The instructions are to mix it 50/50 with gasoline.
&gt;
&gt; The acetone in carb cleaners will eventually craze plastic, so there is
&gt; the possiblity that it will attack the plastic floats. That's why I
&gt; only leave it in the float bowls for half an hour.
&gt;
&gt;

When I bought the Yamaha cleaner it did not smell like MEK to me. There
is a definate MEK odor to Berrymans. The formulation is different thus
they are not the same.

pierce

Report this message

#9: Re: Help my GS500E will not start....

Posted on 2005-12-04 12:09:37 by Ron Seiden

Another source of &quot;generic&quot; cleaner is &quot;lacquer thinner&quot;, available in
hardware store paint &amp; solvent departments. It's a witches brew of organic
solvents -- alcohol, acetone, toluene, etc. (the list is too long to
remember, but impressive). I always keep some around for making sure things
get cleaned of any petroleum or fingerprint (or smog) based contamination...
(just make sure you're sitting upwind of where it's getting used)
I've even used a few ounces of it in a tank of gas to get a bike running in
the spring after storage with no preservative in the gas.......

&quot;CK&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:chas_kinbote&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">chas_kinbote&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1133367509.965892.172290&#64;g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1133367509.965892.172290&#64;g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; <a href="mailto:ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">ConnectPJ&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt; Thanks so much for your reply. I've had my bike for nine years now and
&gt; &gt; its been no trouble at all as I've taken good care of it. Maybe I
&gt; &gt; should try and find a course where I can learn how to strip down and
&gt; &gt; clean my own carbs and other similar jobs. I'd enjoy doing it and not
&gt; &gt; having to rely on a delar who charges a lot for labour. Can you
&gt; &gt; recommend any books or wesbites that have pictures I could use to teach
&gt; &gt; myself ?
&gt;
&gt; There's no substitute for curiousity and the desire to learn how things
&gt; work. I always had tinker-itis, I just had to see what was inside the
&gt; carburetor, under the valve covers, inside the crankcase, etc.
&gt;
&gt; I have probably typed a million words on the subject of the Mikuni and
&gt; Keihin carburetors used on Japanese motorbikes and why they get dirty,
&gt; what the symptoms are, and how to clean and adjust them right here in
&gt; this forum. Just google up &quot;EPA anti-tamper plugs&quot; or &quot;transition
&gt; ports&quot; or &quot;idle mixture screws&quot; and you'll get more words than you can
&gt; stand.
&gt;
&gt; Clymer, Chilton and Haynes all can supply you with aftermarket repair
&gt; manuals for do-it-yourselfers, and of course you can buy the Suzuki
&gt; workshop manual that the aftermarket manuals are based upon.
&gt;
&gt; And you can look at the parts diagrams for the carbs at
&gt; www.partsfish.com and www.bikebandit.com and the www.factorypro.com
&gt; site talks about how to performance tune your carbs using one of their
&gt; jet kits. Nobody really needs a jet kit unless they are
&gt; setting up an engine for racing, though. The Sudco International
&gt; catalog at www.sudco.com has a lot of information for amateur speed
&gt; tuners too.
&gt;
&gt; You do need some good tools. A #2 Phillips screwdriver, a 10mm box end
&gt; wrench, an 8mm box end wrench, a narrow bladed slot screwdriver that
&gt; fits the idle jets exactly,
&gt; an electric drill to drill out the anti-tamper plugs, a 1/16th inch
&gt; drill and a 3/32's drill, a small sheet metal screw and a pair of
&gt; pliers if you are going to actually dismantle the carbs for thorough
&gt; cleaning. A large shallow basin of some sort is useful for catching the
&gt; solvent you use to clean the carbs and a small stiff brush will agitate
&gt; the the worst of the grease and dirt.
&gt;
&gt; You can purchase the xylene/acetone/alcohol carburetor cleaner in two
&gt; forms, aerosol and liquid. In the USA, it's sold as Berryman's B-12
&gt; Chemtool Choke and Carburetor Cleaner. STP and Gunk also sell similar
&gt; products, but B-12 is the only one I'm sure comes in a 15-ounce can of
&gt; liquid. The aerosol cans of carb cleaner are handy for spritizing out
&gt; all the passageways, which go four ways.
&gt;
&gt; The idle air comes into a pilot air jet in the inlet bell of the
&gt; carburetor. The idle gas comes through an idle jet in the float bowl.
&gt; The two passages meet and the resulting fuel/air mixture comes out
&gt; through three transition ports just downstream of the throttle
&gt; butterflies. The fuel/air mixture also comes out through a single port
&gt; further downstream.
&gt;
&gt; The latter port is regulated by a tapered idle mixture screw that is
&gt; set at the factory and sealed under an anti-tamper plug. I have
&gt; described the process for drilling out the anti-tamper plug many times
&gt; in this forum and have also described how to preserve the original
&gt; setting as well as what to do to re-adjust the screw if some previous
&gt; owner has already tampered with it.
&gt;



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