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#1: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 03:36:47 by morticide

On Mar 4, 8:13 pm, Rich Piehl &lt;<a href="mailto:rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net" target="_blank">rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net</a>&gt;
wrote:

(forwarded to r.a.d: folks there may have comments as well)

&gt; <a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..." target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st...</a>
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt; &gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois
&gt; &gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt; &gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt; &gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive down
&gt; &gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger
&gt; &gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By lowering
&gt; &gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt; &gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt; &gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;
&gt; Follow the link for the full article.
&gt;
&gt; Take care,
&gt; Rich
&gt;
&gt; God bless the USA
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Pat Paulson (1927-1997) for President - 2008
&gt;
&gt; Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
&gt; to vote for him as it does for the choices
&gt; that we have who are living. At least he's not
&gt; going change his position on anything.

As if the dangers of existing drivers operating like they are 14
(either excessive fear or excessive hormones) were not enough. Eep.

Report this message

#2: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 05:23:29 by midlant

On Mar 4, 6:36=A0pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 8:13 pm, Rich Piehl &lt;<a href="mailto:rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net" target="_blank">rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net</a>&gt;
&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; (forwarded to r.a.d: folks there may have comments as well)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..." target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt;<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt; &gt; &gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois
&gt; &gt; &gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt; &gt; &gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt; &gt; &gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive down
&gt; &gt; &gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger
&gt; &gt; &gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By lowering=

&gt; &gt; &gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt; &gt; &gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt; &gt; &gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Follow the link for the full article.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Take care,
&gt; &gt; Rich
&gt;
&gt; &gt; God bless the USA
&gt;
&gt; &gt; --
&gt; &gt; Pat Paulson (1927-1997) for President - 2008
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
&gt; &gt; to vote for him as it does for the choices
&gt; &gt; that we have who are living. =A0At least he's not
&gt; &gt; going change his position on anything.
&gt;
&gt; As if the dangers of existing drivers operating like they are 14
&gt; (either excessive fear or excessive hormones) were not enough. =A0Eep.- Hi=
de quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; - Show quoted text -

They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
equipmant in mnay states.

Report this message

#3: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 05:31:48 by morticide

On Mar 4, 10:23=A0pm, Studemania &lt;<a href="mailto:midl...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">midl...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 6:36=A0pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; On Mar 4, 8:13 pm, Rich Piehl &lt;<a href="mailto:rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net" target="_blank">rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net</a>&gt;
&gt; &gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; (forwarded to r.a.d: folks there may have comments as well)
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..=" target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st..=</a>
..
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois=

&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive dow=
n
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger=

&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By loweri=
ng
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Follow the link for the full article.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Take care,
&gt; &gt; &gt; Rich
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; God bless the USA
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; --
&gt; &gt; &gt; Pat Paulson (1927-1997) for President - 2008
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
&gt; &gt; &gt; to vote for him as it does for the choices
&gt; &gt; &gt; that we have who are living. =A0At least he's not
&gt; &gt; &gt; going change his position on anything.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; As if the dangers of existing drivers operating like they are 14
&gt; &gt; (either excessive fear or excessive hormones) were not enough. =A0Eep.- =
Hide quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; &gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
&gt; During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
&gt; equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
&gt; There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
&gt; equipmant in mnay states.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; - Show quoted text -

Kansas used to have drivers legally operating at 14. As a farm-raised
dude in northern MO, I was driving a 2-ton flatbed truck on the farm
and nearby gravel roads at 12 during hay season. It had a 5-speed
transmission and a 2-speed axle. The pedals were challenging to reach
due to being only 5 feet tall at the time. One of my neighbors was
(illegally) driving automobiles on rural roads at 8.

Report this message

#4: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 05:42:35 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:ac9f5fe0-35ec-4770-8313-f2c2b0f0ac63&#64;p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">ac9f5fe0-35ec-4770-8313-f2c2b0f0ac63&#64;p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, MLOM wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 10:23 pm, Studemania &lt;<a href="mailto:midl...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">midl...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; On Mar 4, 6:36 pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; On Mar 4, 8:13 pm, Rich Piehl &lt;<a href="mailto:rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net" target="_blank">rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; (forwarded to r.a.d: folks there may have comments as well)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..." target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive down
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By lowering
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Follow the link for the full article.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Take care,
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Rich
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; God bless the USA
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; --
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Pat Paulson (1927-1997) for President - 2008
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; to vote for him as it does for the choices
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; that we have who are living.  At least he's not
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; going change his position on anything.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; As if the dangers of existing drivers operating like they are 14
&gt;&gt; &gt; (either excessive fear or excessive hormones) were not enough.  Eep.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
&gt;&gt; During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
&gt;&gt; equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
&gt;&gt; There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
&gt;&gt; equipmant in mnay states.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; Kansas used to have drivers legally operating at 14. As a farm-raised
&gt; dude in northern MO, I was driving a 2-ton flatbed truck on the farm
&gt; and nearby gravel roads at 12 during hay season. It had a 5-speed
&gt; transmission and a 2-speed axle. The pedals were challenging to reach
&gt; due to being only 5 feet tall at the time. One of my neighbors was
&gt; (illegally) driving automobiles on rural roads at 8.

Many of the problems these days IMO come from all the age restrictions
that delay development....

Report this message

#5: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 06:41:14 by midlant

On Mar 4, 8:42=A0pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P) wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:ac9f5fe0-35ec-4770-8313-f2c2b0f0a...&#64;p73g2000hsd.googlegroups." target="_blank">ac9f5fe0-35ec-4770-8313-f2c2b0f0a...&#64;p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.</a>=
com&gt;, MLOM wrote:
&gt; &gt; On Mar 4, 10:23=A0pm, Studemania &lt;<a href="mailto:midl...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">midl...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; On Mar 4, 6:36=A0pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Mar 4, 8:13 pm, Rich Piehl &lt;<a href="mailto:rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net" target="_blank">rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net</a>=
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; (forwarded to r.a.d: folks there may have comments as well)
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/s=" target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/s=</a>
t...
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions =
on
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illin=
ois
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough t=
o
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16=
..
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive =
down
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a youn=
ger
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By low=
ering
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for=

&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experienc=
e
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Follow the link for the full article.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Take care,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Rich
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; God bless the USA
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; --
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Pat Paulson (1927-1997) for President - 2008
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; to vote for him as it does for the choices
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; that we have who are living. =A0At least he's not
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; going change his position on anything.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; As if the dangers of existing drivers operating like they are 14
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; (either excessive fear or excessive hormones) were not enough. =A0Eep=
..- Hide quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
&gt; &gt;&gt; During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
&gt; &gt;&gt; equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
&gt; &gt;&gt; There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
&gt; &gt;&gt; equipmant in mnay states.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Kansas used to have drivers legally operating at 14. =A0As a farm-raised=

&gt; &gt; dude in northern MO, I was driving a 2-ton flatbed truck on the farm
&gt; &gt; and nearby gravel roads at 12 during hay season. =A0It had a 5-speed
&gt; &gt; transmission and a 2-speed axle. =A0The pedals were challenging to reach=

&gt; &gt; due to being only 5 feet tall at the time. =A0One of my neighbors was
&gt; &gt; (illegally) driving automobiles on rural roads at 8.
&gt;
&gt; Many of the problems these days IMO come from all the age restrictions
&gt; that delay development....- Hide quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; - Show quoted text -

I got a survey call about drinking age.
I replied that I knew 12 year olds I would trust with a bottle
and sisty-six year old folks whom I wouldn't.
I was turned over to a supervisor as there was no such box like I said
for
this fpr the caller to check-off!

Report this message

#6: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 07:28:35 by EAST COAST HIVE MIND

Studemania wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 6:36 pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; On Mar 4, 8:13 pm, Rich Piehl &lt;<a href="mailto:rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net" target="_blank">rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; (forwarded to r.a.d: folks there may have comments as well)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..." target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive down
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By lowering
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;&gt;&gt; Follow the link for the full article.
&gt;&gt;&gt; Take care,
&gt;&gt;&gt; Rich
&gt;&gt;&gt; God bless the USA
&gt;&gt;&gt; --
&gt;&gt;&gt; Pat Paulson (1927-1997) for President - 2008
&gt;&gt;&gt; Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
&gt;&gt;&gt; to vote for him as it does for the choices
&gt;&gt;&gt; that we have who are living. At least he's not
&gt;&gt;&gt; going change his position on anything.
&gt;&gt; As if the dangers of existing drivers operating like they are 14
&gt;&gt; (either excessive fear or excessive hormones) were not enough. Eep.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
&gt; During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
&gt; equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
&gt; There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
&gt; equipmant in mnay states.
&gt;

Idaho used to let them have a licence at 14 in the 60's. I'll have to
look up some of my older Rand MCN atlas tables that had minimum ages for
an operator's licence. It's not *all* bad. What 14 yr old kid's gonna
get enough allowance to afford $4/gal petrol for the Hummer? :)


--
Comrade Otto The Duke Of Yamamoto
<a href="http://mryamamoto.50megs.com" target="_blank">http://mryamamoto.50megs.com</a>
'The Quality goes in before the Name goes on'

Report this message

#7: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 07:35:23 by EAST COAST HIVE MIND

Studemania wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 8:42 pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P) wrote:
&gt;&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:ac9f5fe0-35ec-4770-8313-f2c2b0f0a...&#64;p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">ac9f5fe0-35ec-4770-8313-f2c2b0f0a...&#64;p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, MLOM wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mar 4, 10:23 pm, Studemania &lt;<a href="mailto:midl...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">midl...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mar 4, 6:36 pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mar 4, 8:13 pm, Rich Piehl &lt;<a href="mailto:rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net" target="_blank">rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (forwarded to r.a.d: folks there may have comments as well)
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..." target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive down
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By lowering
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Follow the link for the full article.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take care,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Rich
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; God bless the USA
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pat Paulson (1927-1997) for President - 2008
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to vote for him as it does for the choices
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that we have who are living. At least he's not
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; going change his position on anything.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As if the dangers of existing drivers operating like they are 14
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (either excessive fear or excessive hormones) were not enough. Eep.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; equipmant in mnay states.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;&gt;&gt; Kansas used to have drivers legally operating at 14. As a farm-raised
&gt;&gt;&gt; dude in northern MO, I was driving a 2-ton flatbed truck on the farm
&gt;&gt;&gt; and nearby gravel roads at 12 during hay season. It had a 5-speed
&gt;&gt;&gt; transmission and a 2-speed axle. The pedals were challenging to reach
&gt;&gt;&gt; due to being only 5 feet tall at the time. One of my neighbors was
&gt;&gt;&gt; (illegally) driving automobiles on rural roads at 8.
&gt;&gt; Many of the problems these days IMO come from all the age restrictions
&gt;&gt; that delay development....- Hide quoted text -
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; I got a survey call about drinking age.
&gt; I replied that I knew 12 year olds I would trust with a bottle
&gt; and sisty-six year old folks whom I wouldn't.
&gt; I was turned over to a supervisor as there was no such box like I said
&gt; for
&gt; this fpr the caller to check-off!


Don't get me started on that. I have no problem w/young ppl drinking, as
long as a responsible adults are supervising. I was drinking beer as a
child-sips, mind you, no huge amounts; and my grandmother used to serve
us half wine(chianti, I think) and half 7 up with our lunch when we came
around to visit: I looked forward to that :) I learnt to *enjoy*
alcoholic beverages, not think of them as a means to get hammered.

--
Comrade Otto The Duke Of Yamamoto
<a href="http://mryamamoto.50megs.com" target="_blank">http://mryamamoto.50megs.com</a>
'The Quality goes in before the Name goes on'

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#8: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 07:49:31 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 4, 8:23 pm, Studemania &lt;<a href="mailto:midl...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">midl...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
&gt; During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
&gt; equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
&gt; There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
&gt; equipmant in mnay states.

Oregon will give farm kids provisional licenses at 13, valid only
while performing duties related to farming, IIRC. I have no idea how
often people take advantage of this, though; it's got to be fairly
rare as I generally only see teenagers driving in the neighborhoods,
sometimes the city and almost never out in the countryside. OTOH, I
can go 20 or 30 minutes without encountering another driver at all in
the middle of the day on OR-99E Business between Jefferson and Salem...

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#9: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 07:52:56 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 4, 10:28 pm, EAST COAST HIVE MIND &lt;<a href="mailto:calq...&#64;jih.ad" target="_blank">calq...&#64;jih.ad</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Idaho used to let them have a licence at 14 in the 60's. I'll have to
&gt; look up some of my older Rand MCN atlas tables that had minimum ages for
&gt; an operator's licence. It's not *all* bad. What 14 yr old kid's gonna
&gt; get enough allowance to afford $4/gal petrol for the Hummer? :)

Odds are if the family has a Hummer, the little shit driving it is a
trust fund baby who has no sense of money in the first place and won't
learn that reality until after the trust fund is dry.

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#10: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-05 21:35:39 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;47ce3c76$0$15166$<a href="mailto:607ed4bc&#64;cv.net" target="_blank">607ed4bc&#64;cv.net</a>&gt;, EAST COAST HIVE MIND wrote:

&gt; Don't get me started on that. I have no problem w/young ppl drinking, as
&gt; long as a responsible adults are supervising. I was drinking beer as a
&gt; child-sips, mind you, no huge amounts; and my grandmother used to serve
&gt; us half wine(chianti, I think) and half 7 up with our lunch when we came
&gt; around to visit: I looked forward to that :) I learnt to *enjoy*
&gt; alcoholic beverages, not think of them as a means to get hammered.

And that's the right way IMO. The american prohibitionist tendencies on
so many things just create problems. (and that includes driving speed)

I had the same as you growing up more or less...by the time I was in my late
teens I didn't understand why people my age were so thrilled by drinking
alcohol... it was no big deal to me. I drank wine because I liked it. (I
had not yet tasted a beer I liked at that point)

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#11: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-06 05:20:57 by midlant

On Mar 4, 10:49=A0pm, Paul Johnson &lt;<a href="mailto:ba...&#64;ursine.ca" target="_blank">ba...&#64;ursine.ca</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 8:23 pm, Studemania &lt;<a href="mailto:midl...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">midl...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
&gt; &gt; During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
&gt; &gt; equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
&gt; &gt; There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
&gt; &gt; equipmant in mnay states.
&gt;
&gt; Oregon will give farm kids provisional licenses at 13, valid only
&gt; while performing duties related to farming, IIRC. =A0I have no idea how
&gt; often people take advantage of this, though; it's got to be fairly
&gt; rare as I generally only see teenagers driving in the neighborhoods,
&gt; sometimes the city and almost never out in the countryside. =A0OTOH, I
&gt; can go 20 or 30 minutes without encountering another driver at all in
&gt; the middle of the day on OR-99E Business between Jefferson and Salem...

Did you leave WV or is this a different PJ?

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#12: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-06 05:24:00 by Nate Nagel

Studemania wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 10:49 pm, Paul Johnson &lt;<a href="mailto:ba...&#64;ursine.ca" target="_blank">ba...&#64;ursine.ca</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;On Mar 4, 8:23 pm, Studemania &lt;<a href="mailto:midl...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">midl...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
&gt;&gt;&gt;During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
&gt;&gt;&gt;equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
&gt;&gt;&gt;There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
&gt;&gt;&gt;equipmant in mnay states.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Oregon will give farm kids provisional licenses at 13, valid only
&gt;&gt;while performing duties related to farming, IIRC. I have no idea how
&gt;&gt;often people take advantage of this, though; it's got to be fairly
&gt;&gt;rare as I generally only see teenagers driving in the neighborhoods,
&gt;&gt;sometimes the city and almost never out in the countryside. OTOH, I
&gt;&gt;can go 20 or 30 minutes without encountering another driver at all in
&gt;&gt;the middle of the day on OR-99E Business between Jefferson and Salem...
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Did you leave WV or is this a different PJ?

I think it's a different one from the guy you're thinking of. (I want
to say he's a &quot;Johnston?&quot;)

nate

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#13: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-09 22:30:49 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 5, 1:35 pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethyllead&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethyllead&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P) wrote:

&gt; And that's the right way IMO. The american prohibitionist tendencies on
&gt; so many things just create problems. (and that includes driving speed)

I was with you up until driving speed. We, as a country, absolutely
do not have the petroleum resources to keep burning just to go 10-20
MPH faster than peak efficiency. As much as I like to drive fast,
I've given it up. Simply because eventually the guys managing the
energy policy are eventually going to wise up to this, the days of the
55+ speed limit are very likely numbered.

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#14: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-09 22:32:10 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 5, 9:20 pm, Studemania &lt;<a href="mailto:midl...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">midl...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Did you leave WV or is this a different PJ?

The closest I've been to West Virginia in my life is Lewis, DE.

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#15: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-09 23:11:56 by Nate Nagel

Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; On Mar 5, 1:35 pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethyllead&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethyllead&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P) wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;And that's the right way IMO. The american prohibitionist tendencies on
&gt;&gt;so many things just create problems. (and that includes driving speed)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I was with you up until driving speed. We, as a country, absolutely
&gt; do not have the petroleum resources to keep burning just to go 10-20
&gt; MPH faster than peak efficiency. As much as I like to drive fast,
&gt; I've given it up. Simply because eventually the guys managing the
&gt; energy policy are eventually going to wise up to this, the days of the
&gt; 55+ speed limit are very likely numbered.

I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able to
do everything quickly. Far more likely is that we will keep burning
gasoline until another energy source is discovered that don't have any
of the significant drawbacks that any of the current &quot;alternative&quot;
sources do.

nate

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#16: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-09 23:35:51 by gpsman

On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; &gt; On Mar 5, 1:35 pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethyll...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethyll...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P) wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;And that's the right way IMO. The american prohibitionist tendencies on
&gt; &gt;&gt;so many things just create problems. (and that includes driving speed)
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I was with you up until driving speed. We, as a country, absolutely
&gt; &gt; do not have the petroleum resources to keep burning just to go 10-20
&gt; &gt; MPH faster than peak efficiency. As much as I like to drive fast,
&gt; &gt; I've given it up. Simply because eventually the guys managing the
&gt; &gt; energy policy are eventually going to wise up to this, the days of the
&gt; &gt; 55+ speed limit are very likely numbered.
&gt;
&gt; I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able to
&gt; do everything quickly.

Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.

&quot;Quick&quot; $B!b(B &quot;efficient&quot;.
-----

- gpsman

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#17: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-09 23:57:50 by Nate Nagel

gpsman wrote:
&gt; On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mar 5, 1:35 pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethyll...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethyll...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P) wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; And that's the right way IMO. The american prohibitionist
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; tendencies on so many things just create problems. (and that
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; includes driving speed)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; I was with you up until driving speed. We, as a country,
&gt;&gt;&gt; absolutely do not have the petroleum resources to keep burning
&gt;&gt;&gt; just to go 10-20 MPH faster than peak efficiency. As much as I
&gt;&gt;&gt; like to drive fast, I've given it up. Simply because eventually
&gt;&gt;&gt; the guys managing the energy policy are eventually going to wise
&gt;&gt;&gt; up to this, the days of the 55+ speed limit are very likely
&gt;&gt;&gt; numbered.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able
&gt;&gt; to do everything quickly.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Quick&quot; â  &quot;efficient&quot;. -----
&gt;
&gt; - gpsman

Are you kidding? there are whole businesses that specialize in
expediting letters, packages, even freight. It's to the point where
customers look at me funny if I say that something might take &quot;a couple
of days&quot; because we have become a society that doesn't like to wait.
And, of course, nobody wants to be the company that bows out of the race
to do everything faster, because customer service is the name of the game.

nate

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#18: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 00:29:27 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 9, 3:57 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Are you kidding? there are whole businesses that specialize in
&gt; expediting letters, packages, even freight. It's to the point where
&gt; customers look at me funny if I say that something might take &quot;a couple
&gt; of days&quot; because we have become a society that doesn't like to wait.
&gt; And, of course, nobody wants to be the company that bows out of the race
&gt; to do everything faster, because customer service is the name of the game.

I'm an owner-operator do same day express delivery for a living. I
drive the speed limit or 45 off-highway (whichever is lower), and
either the speed limit or 50 (whichever is lower) on the freeway. I
still beat deadlines with plenty of time to spare. I'm not going to
fork 20% more of my profits over to PetroCanada, and by proxy OPEC,
just to go 60 or 70. The time saved in a day by going faster doesn't
even leave enough extra time in the day to do another run.

You can spend a few minutes here and there throughout the day and
drive a little slower, or you can give people in the middle east who
dispise us a lot more money to get there an insignificant amount of
time sooner. One mentality is common sense. The other mentality is
selfish and threatens to undermine our country's economic viability
and international credability. You're going to be hard pressed to
convince us that being part of the problem is a Good Thing.

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#19: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 00:47:17 by Arif Khokar

Paul Johnson wrote:

&gt; You can spend a few minutes here and there throughout the day and
&gt; drive a little slower,

Driving slower doesn't save a significant amount of fuel (I might get an
additional 30 miles in a tank of gas by driving slower). The only way
to save fuel is to use transportation that doesn't use fuel. I
guarantee that during the summer months, someone, like me, who rides a
bicycle all week and drives 80 to 90 mph on weekends uses less fuel
compared to someone who drives at 50 (mph or km/h?) every day of the week.

&gt; or you can give people in the middle east who dispise us a lot

That's because we hate their freedoms.

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#20: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 02:04:47 by gpsman

On Mar 9, 6:47 pm, Arif Khokar &lt;<a href="mailto:akhokar1...&#64;wvu.edu" target="_blank">akhokar1...&#64;wvu.edu</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Driving slower doesn't save a significant amount of fuel (I might get an
&gt; additional 30 miles in a tank of gas by driving slower).

Well, it's not just driving slower. The best drivers manage the
energy in other ways as well.

&gt; The only way
&gt; to save fuel is to use transportation that doesn't use fuel.

I thought you said you could get an extra 30 miles per tank,
somehow...
-----

- gpsman

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#21: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 03:22:27 by gpsman

On Mar 9, 6:57 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; gpsman wrote:
&gt; &gt; On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On Mar 5, 1:35 pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethyll...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethyll...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P) wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; And that's the right way IMO. The american prohibitionist
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; tendencies on so many things just create problems. (and that
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; includes driving speed)
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I was with you up until driving speed. We, as a country,
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; absolutely do not have the petroleum resources to keep burning
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; just to go 10-20 MPH faster than peak efficiency. As much as I
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; like to drive fast, I've given it up. Simply because eventually
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the guys managing the energy policy are eventually going to wise
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; up to this, the days of the 55+ speed limit are very likely
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; numbered.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able
&gt; &gt;&gt; to do everything quickly.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;Quick&quot; $B!b(B &quot;efficient&quot;. -----
&gt;
&gt; &gt; - gpsman
&gt;
&gt; Are you kidding? there are whole businesses that specialize in
&gt; expediting letters, packages, even freight.

Expedite, as a transportation term, does not mean &quot;we'll drive
faster&quot;, unless you're talking donor organs, or maybe bicycle
messengers.

&gt; It's to the point where
&gt; customers look at me funny if I say that something might take &quot;a couple
&gt; of days&quot; because we have become a society that doesn't like to wait.

I suspect the reason they look at you funny is because customers
generally don't want to know how long it &quot;might&quot; take, they want to
know how long it &quot;will&quot; take.

Try saying, &quot;We'll have this for you in 48 hours&quot; and see how that
works.

&gt; And, of course, nobody wants to be the company that bows out of the race
&gt; to do everything faster, because customer service is the name of the game.

They don't want to go tits up, or even just realize less profit, for
failing to manage an expensive resource either.

Unlike most companies whose greatest expense is employee wages, in
transportation it's fuel, by a long shot, and getting longer.

Figger 250 trucks burning 100g each per day (600mi @ 6mpg) at $3.25g *
28 days per month= $2,275,000.

If each driver averages $4K in that 28 day month= $1M.

If those 250 drivers each burn just 1 gallon of fuel extra per day,
that's $812.50, per day ($22,750/month).
-----

- gpsman

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#22: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 04:21:33 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:d2f3df80-52fa-431a-b404-99a384e2e288&#64;d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">d2f3df80-52fa-431a-b404-99a384e2e288&#64;d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;On Mar 5, 1:35 pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethyllead&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethyllead&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P) wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; And that's the right way IMO. The american prohibitionist tendencies on
&gt;&gt; so many things just create problems. (and that includes driving speed)
&gt;
&gt;I was with you up until driving speed. We, as a country, absolutely
&gt;do not have the petroleum resources to keep burning just to go 10-20
&gt;MPH faster than peak efficiency. As much as I like to drive fast,
&gt;I've given it up. Simply because eventually the guys managing the
&gt;energy policy are eventually going to wise up to this, the days of the
&gt;55+ speed limit are very likely numbered.

Ahh yes, the myth that the oil is running out. The oil isn't running
out, no where near running out. The problem we are facing is a weak
dollar and that's because of how government and central bankers treat
fiat currencies. At least half of the $70 a bbl increase is due to the
problems of the dollar. Much of the rest is due to the instabilities
caused by Bush's war follies.

Central control is not answer, has never been the answer, and will never
be the answer.

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#23: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 04:31:25 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:e56d1901-89f8-4721-ab5c-c5eb8052a318&#64;e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">e56d1901-89f8-4721-ab5c-c5eb8052a318&#64;e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;On Mar 9, 3:57 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Are you kidding? there are whole businesses that specialize in
&gt;&gt; expediting letters, packages, even freight. It's to the point where
&gt;&gt; customers look at me funny if I say that something might take &quot;a couple
&gt;&gt; of days&quot; because we have become a society that doesn't like to wait.
&gt;&gt; And, of course, nobody wants to be the company that bows out of the race
&gt;&gt; to do everything faster, because customer service is the name of the game.
&gt;
&gt;I'm an owner-operator do same day express delivery for a living. I
&gt;drive the speed limit or 45 off-highway (whichever is lower), and
&gt;either the speed limit or 50 (whichever is lower) on the freeway. I
&gt;still beat deadlines with plenty of time to spare. I'm not going to
&gt;fork 20% more of my profits over to PetroCanada, and by proxy OPEC,
&gt;just to go 60 or 70. The time saved in a day by going faster doesn't
&gt;even leave enough extra time in the day to do another run.

Good for you, that's your market forces at work. We don't need
government telling us how to spend our money.

&gt;You can spend a few minutes here and there throughout the day and
&gt;drive a little slower, or you can give people in the middle east who
&gt;dispise us a lot more money to get there an insignificant amount of
&gt;time sooner. One mentality is common sense. The other mentality is
&gt;selfish and threatens to undermine our country's economic viability
&gt;and international credability. You're going to be hard pressed to
&gt;convince us that being part of the problem is a Good Thing.

Bullshit. Plain bullshit. The USA is despised in the middle east because
it's been overthrowing governments and proping up dictators there for
more than 50 years. Nothing I can do as far as my spending choices will
change that. I am compelled to pay the US federal government at the
point of a gun and threat of imprisonment.

Driving slower on the interstate will maybe save me a few dollars a
year, and by few I mean less than $20 and have zero impact on the
geo-political condition. My vote for a non-interventist foreign policy
in the presidental election was more meaningful and we know how
meaningful voting is these days since the same people always get in.

Our nation's economic viability has been damaged by the central bankers
and paying for wars on credit and taking on huge social program
obligations. International credibility went into the toilet for much the
same reason. Me not driving slower on the interstate didn't do jack
shit.

Report this message

#24: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 04:32:15 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;9G_Aj.5697$<a href="mailto:Sa1.1300&#64;news02.roc.ny" target="_blank">Sa1.1300&#64;news02.roc.ny</a>&gt;, Arif Khokar wrote:

&gt;&gt; or you can give people in the middle east who dispise us a lot
&gt;
&gt;That's because we hate their freedoms.

That's a good one... mind if I steal it? :)

Report this message

#25: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 04:48:04 by websurf1

On Mar 4, 9:23 pm, Studemania &lt;<a href="mailto:midl...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">midl...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 6:36 pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; On Mar 4, 8:13 pm, Rich Piehl &lt;<a href="mailto:rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net" target="_blank">rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...&#64;NOSPAMcharter.net</a>&gt;
&gt; &gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; (forwarded to r.a.d: folks there may have comments as well)
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..." target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive down
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By lowering
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Follow the link for the full article.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Take care,
&gt; &gt; &gt; Rich
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; God bless the USA
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; --
&gt; &gt; &gt; Pat Paulson (1927-1997) for President - 2008
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
&gt; &gt; &gt; to vote for him as it does for the choices
&gt; &gt; &gt; that we have who are living. At least he's not
&gt; &gt; &gt; going change his position on anything.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; As if the dangers of existing drivers operating like they are 14
&gt; &gt; (either excessive fear or excessive hormones) were not enough. Eep.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; &gt; - Show quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; They used to drive at that age in NY. Maybe they still do.
&gt; During the war (don't ask which war.) my late B-I-L drove farm
&gt; equipment on the streets - and probably cars, too.
&gt; There are kids driving multi-million dollar pieces of
&gt; equipmant in mnay states.

Lots of states used to allow 14 year olds (or whatever) to drive farm
implements on non-freeway roads. There were usually a ton of
restrictions--no night driving, only between your properties, etc.

Putting 14 year olds in regular driving situations is a great way to
reduce the general population.

Report this message

#26: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 13:35:05 by noway

&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Quick&quot; $B!b(B &quot;efficient&quot;. -----
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; - gpsman
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Are you kidding? there are whole businesses that specialize in
&gt; &gt; expediting letters, packages, even freight.
&gt;
&gt; Expedite, as a transportation term, does not mean &quot;we'll drive
&gt; faster&quot;, unless you're talking donor organs, or maybe bicycle
&gt; messengers.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; It's to the point where
&gt; &gt; customers look at me funny if I say that something might take &quot;a couple
&gt; &gt; of days&quot; because we have become a society that doesn't like to wait.
&gt;
&gt; I suspect the reason they look at you funny is because customers
&gt; generally don't want to know how long it &quot;might&quot; take, they want to
&gt; know how long it &quot;will&quot; take.
&gt;
&gt; Try saying, &quot;We'll have this for you in 48 hours&quot; and see how that
&gt; works.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; And, of course, nobody wants to be the company that bows out of the race
&gt; &gt; to do everything faster, because customer service is the name of the
game.
&gt;
&gt; They don't want to go tits up, or even just realize less profit, for
&gt; failing to manage an expensive resource either.
&gt;
&gt; Unlike most companies whose greatest expense is employee wages, in
&gt; transportation it's fuel, by a long shot, and getting longer.
&gt;
&gt; Figger 250 trucks burning 100g each per day (600mi @ 6mpg) at $3.25g *
&gt; 28 days per month= $2,275,000.
&gt;
&gt; If each driver averages $4K in that 28 day month= $1M.
&gt;
&gt; If those 250 drivers each burn just 1 gallon of fuel extra per day,
&gt; that's $812.50, per day ($22,750/month).
&gt; -----
&gt;
&gt; - gpsman

You've never heard of just in time delivery then. Just about every
transportation and distribution company is striving to minimize warehouse
floor space use by utilizing some form of just in time delivery. The plan
is, product incoming is pulled off one truck and immediately re-stacked and
loaded on other trucks, spending no more than a few hours AT MOST in a
warehouse. If the incoming truck is late, that can delay dozens of customer
deliveries, causing many thousands of dollars in lost profits and extra
delivery fees, as the product that was supposed to be on the trucks but
isn't still needs to be delivered, in most cases. If you are driving a
truck, your employer does not want you to slow down, other than to keep
reasonably close to whatever speed you can legally log, and for safety
reasons (don't do 65MPH on ice, for example). That is, you might be able to
save a little fuel by driving 5MPH slower, but you'll also lose your job by
doing so, if you make a habit of it. -Dave

Report this message

#27: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 13:49:15 by noway

&gt; Lots of states used to allow 14 year olds (or whatever) to drive farm
&gt; implements on non-freeway roads. There were usually a ton of
&gt; restrictions--no night driving, only between your properties, etc.
&gt;
&gt; Putting 14 year olds in regular driving situations is a great way to
&gt; reduce the general population.

I have a different view on this. Where I grew up, I was licensed at age 14,
and there was NO public transportation available, and everything was driving
distance from just about everything else. In high school, every student
drove to school as there was no bus service and bus service would have been
prohibitively expensive due to the low population density. In areas where
driving is legal at young ages like 14, there is usually a really good
reason for that, which boils down to, you must drive...not for
entertainment, but just to maintain your regular every day routine.
When I was 14, driving was not such a big deal. Yeah, there were some
hotheads who were irresponsible but for the most part my 14-15 year old
peers treated their cars like the transportation appliance that it was, not
a toy.

In areas where school buses operate at high school level and they make you
wait until 16 or 17 to get your license, the 17 year old drivers are MUCH
more dangerous than the 14 year old drivers that must drive, just to stay in
school.

So many people advocate RAISING the minimum driving age to 17 or 18 or
????????

But this ignores a very scary reality. We all know that parents of
teenagers aren't always great drivers, but for the most part they do give a
damn about TRYING to teach their kids to drive safely. By raising minimum
driving age to 17 or 18, you are severely restricting the time frame in
which the parents have the opportunity to TRY to teach their kids how to
drive safely. End result is that our kids learn to drive from other kids
after they head off to college in another state. Is that what we REALLY
want? It certainly scares the shit out of me.

I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave

Report this message

#28: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 17:28:23 by gpsman

On Mar 10, 8:35 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Quick&quot; $B!b(B &quot;efficient&quot;. -----
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; - gpsman
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Are you kidding? there are whole businesses that specialize in
&gt; &gt; &gt; expediting letters, packages, even freight.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Expedite, as a transportation term, does not mean &quot;we'll drive
&gt; &gt; faster&quot;, unless you're talking donor organs, or maybe bicycle
&gt; &gt; messengers.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; It's to the point where
&gt; &gt; &gt; customers look at me funny if I say that something might take &quot;a couple
&gt; &gt; &gt; of days&quot; because we have become a society that doesn't like to wait.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I suspect the reason they look at you funny is because customers
&gt; &gt; generally don't want to know how long it &quot;might&quot; take, they want to
&gt; &gt; know how long it &quot;will&quot; take.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Try saying, &quot;We'll have this for you in 48 hours&quot; and see how that
&gt; &gt; works.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; And, of course, nobody wants to be the company that bows out of the race
&gt; &gt; &gt; to do everything faster, because customer service is the name of the
&gt; game.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; They don't want to go tits up, or even just realize less profit, for
&gt; &gt; failing to manage an expensive resource either.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Unlike most companies whose greatest expense is employee wages, in
&gt; &gt; transportation it's fuel, by a long shot, and getting longer.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Figger 250 trucks burning 100g each per day (600mi @ 6mpg) at $3.25g *
&gt; &gt; 28 days per month= $2,275,000.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; If each driver averages $4K in that 28 day month= $1M.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; If those 250 drivers each burn just 1 gallon of fuel extra per day,
&gt; &gt; that's $812.50, per day ($22,750/month).
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; You've never heard of just in time delivery then. Just about every
&gt; transportation and distribution company is striving to minimize warehouse
&gt; floor space use by utilizing some form of just in time delivery.

Most JIT scheduled deliveries are for manufacturing plants who don't
have space to stockpile materials.

Distribution companies are usually also warehousing companies.

Transportation companies sometimes offer limited warehousing, but
their focus is most often just getting product from A to B.

&gt; The plan
&gt; is, product incoming is pulled off one truck and immediately re-stacked and
&gt; loaded on other trucks, spending no more than a few hours AT MOST in a
&gt; warehouse.

Sometimes that's true.

&gt; If the incoming truck is late, that can delay dozens of customer
&gt; deliveries, causing many thousands of dollars in lost profits and extra
&gt; delivery fees, as the product that was supposed to be on the trucks but
&gt; isn't still needs to be delivered, in most cases.

How late are you talking?!

&gt; If you are driving a
&gt; truck, your employer does not want you to slow down, other than to keep
&gt; reasonably close to whatever speed you can legally log, and for safety
&gt; reasons (don't do 65MPH on ice, for example). That is, you might be able to
&gt; save a little fuel by driving 5MPH slower, but you'll also lose your job by
&gt; doing so, if you make a habit of it.

You make a semi-convincing argument, for someone who doesn't really
know what they're talking about, but usually plenty of time is
allotted for trucks to make delivery appointments.

(One exception that comes to mind is the Staples western DC in Rialto
CA. They always &quot;schedule&quot; plenty of time, but often don't get the
trailer loaded until on-time delivery is impossible.)

If you know anything about trucking you know that delays are often
inevitable and nobody with any sense counts on a optimally scheduled
delivery, and those that do are often disappointed.

With your vast experience I'm sure you've waited 2-4-6-8+ hours to
load or unload a &quot;hot&quot; load.

&quot;Hot&quot; loads exist only in the minds of shippers, receivers and
dispatchers. Better drivers know better. (After a few times of
waiting 2-8+ hours for a &quot;hot&quot; load it becomes rather obvious.)

A load isn't going to arrive sooner or on-time if its lying on its
side in the median, and if it's scheduled so tight that a speeding
ticket (and all the bullshit that can be associated with any traffic
stop of a LCV) is going to cost customers &quot;many thousands of dollars
in lost profits and extra delivery fees&quot;, it's too tight.

So it most often isn't done that way, and those that do do it that way
as a normal business practice have plenty of experience making the
necessary adjustments when their plan that risks the driver's CDL
doesn't work out quite the way they planned.
-----

- gpsman

Report this message

#29: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 17:55:39 by Dave

&gt;
&gt; You make a semi-convincing argument, for someone who doesn't really
&gt; know what they're talking about

I'm an OTR truck driver, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.


&gt;, but usually plenty of time is
&gt; allotted for trucks to make delivery appointments.

Not enough extra time is alloted to allow you to slow down enough to save a
significant amount of fuel however. We have sophisticated computers in our
rigs that track this. If I slow down from 65 to 60 for example, fuel
economy does increase, but it only jumps a few hundredths of miles per
gallon, typically from 6.80 to 6.85MPG or some similar number that makes the
extra time just not worth it to employers who pay for the miniscule amount
of extra gas.


&gt;
&gt; (One exception that comes to mind is the Staples western DC in Rialto
&gt; CA. They always &quot;schedule&quot; plenty of time, but often don't get the
&gt; trailer loaded until on-time delivery is impossible.)
&gt;
&gt; If you know anything about trucking you know that delays are often
&gt; inevitable and nobody with any sense counts on a optimally scheduled
&gt; delivery, and those that do are often disappointed.

Well many trucking and distribution companies do schedule deliveries so that
ANY delay is a problem. I don't agree with the practice, but it is very
widespread. Probably because a delay on a delivery here and there is still
LESS expensive to the company than budgeting -extra- time for hundreds of
deliveries on a daily basis...


&gt;
&gt; With your vast experience I'm sure you've waited 2-4-6-8+ hours to
&gt; load or unload a &quot;hot&quot; load.

Oh sure, btdt. Worst case was told by transp. manager I absolutely HAD TO
be there early Monday morning under penalty of losing my job, and I called
ahead to find cons was closed Mondays, wasn't expecting my load at all, and
wouldn't accept my load until Thursday anyway. (!)


&gt;
&gt; &quot;Hot&quot; loads exist only in the minds of shippers, receivers and
&gt; dispatchers. Better drivers know better. (After a few times of
&gt; waiting 2-8+ hours for a &quot;hot&quot; load it becomes rather obvious.)

I agree with you there.


&gt;
&gt; A load isn't going to arrive sooner or on-time if its lying on its
&gt; side in the median, and if it's scheduled so tight that a speeding
&gt; ticket (and all the bullshit that can be associated with any traffic
&gt; stop of a LCV) is going to cost customers &quot;many thousands of dollars
&gt; in lost profits and extra delivery fees&quot;, it's too tight.

I'm not talking about speeding, I don't know of any trucking company that
will tolerate speeding. But yes, deliveries are scheduled so tight that you
are not allowed to slow down simply for the purpose of saving fuel. This is
quite common to the point of being the norm rather than the exception. And
again I don't agree with the practice at all, but that's the way it is,
usually.

&gt;
&gt; So it most often isn't done that way, and those that do do it that way
&gt; as a normal business practice have plenty of experience making the
&gt; necessary adjustments when their plan that risks the driver's CDL
&gt; doesn't work out quite the way they planned.

Nobody is specifying that a driver needs to risk his CDL, but they are
definitely pressuring drivers NOT to slow down. In fact, if you suggested
to most trucking/distribution companies that they should have their drivers
slow down about 5MPH to save fuel, they would laugh in your face. They
aren't that worried about fuel costs if it means delays in delivery times.
But they do strive to reduce fuel costs in other ways, such as buying fuel
in bulk and fueling on-site at the yards. -Dave

Report this message

#30: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 18:58:03 by gpsman

On Mar 10, 12:55 pm, &quot;Dave&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; You make a semi-convincing argument, for someone who doesn't really
&gt; &gt; know what they're talking about
&gt;
&gt; I'm an OTR truck driver, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.

You're suggesting that every OTR driver knows what they're talking
about...?

&gt; &gt;, but usually plenty of time is
&gt; &gt; allotted for trucks to make delivery appointments.
&gt;
&gt; Not enough extra time is alloted to allow you to slow down enough to save a
&gt; significant amount of fuel however.

Who suggested that?!

The premise is exchanging fossil fuels for time.

&gt; We have sophisticated computers in our
&gt; rigs that track this.

If you keep track of your mpg over months or years you'll find those
sophisticated computers ain't all that accurate.

&gt; If I slow down from 65 to 60 for example, fuel
&gt; economy does increase, but it only jumps a few hundredths of miles per
&gt; gallon, typically from 6.80 to 6.85MPG or some similar number that makes the
&gt; extra time just not worth it to employers who pay for the miniscule amount
&gt; of extra gas.

You drive a gasoline powered OTR rig...?!

You think like a driver (and/or Brent). A minuscule amount of savings
by a large number of units adds up.

&gt; Well many trucking and distribution companies do schedule deliveries so that
&gt; ANY delay is a problem.

No, they don't, and it's stupid of you to say so.

&gt; I don't agree with the practice, but it is very
&gt; widespread. Probably because a delay on a delivery here and there is still
&gt; LESS expensive to the company than budgeting -extra- time for hundreds of
&gt; deliveries on a daily basis...

I think you exaggerate, a lot. Such a practice would be stupid
because delays for traffic, weather, flat tires, construction, etc.
etc., are common and often unavoidable.

If a load is time-sensitive to the nth degree even more time is
allotted for its delivery.


&gt; I'm not talking about speeding, I don't know of any trucking company that
&gt; will tolerate speeding. But yes, deliveries are scheduled so tight that you
&gt; are not allowed to slow down simply for the purpose of saving fuel. This is
&gt; quite common to the point of being the norm rather than the exception.

No it isn't, and it's obvious that it isn't, for the circumstances I
described above.

&gt; Nobody is specifying that a driver needs to risk his CDL, but they are
&gt; definitely pressuring drivers NOT to slow down.

No they aren't. There is some pressure to keep the L door closed, but
only on the most ignorant of drivers who can't identify that benefit
for themselves.

And, no trucking company would fail to consider that if a load is
inevitably delayed, as they so often are, the driver can't make up the
time by driving faster, and attempting to do so would be ill-advised.

&gt; In fact, if you suggested
&gt; to most trucking/distribution companies that they should have their drivers
&gt; slow down about 5MPH to save fuel, they would laugh in your face.

Well, I often drove slower, and was often rewarded with bonuses for
being among the drivers with the highest mpg, and the lowest cost per
mile driven.

Those are the stats (among others) by which the better drivers are
determined to be &quot;better&quot;.

&gt; They
&gt; aren't that worried about fuel costs if it means delays in delivery times.

No, because you can't get a load delivered significantly sooner or
make up time lost due to the aforementioned unavoidable delays by
driving faster, but you can get it delivered on-time, most every time,
by allowing realistic travel time.

So, that's how it's done, son.
-----

- gpsman

Report this message

#31: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 22:14:34 by N8N

On Mar 9, 10:22 pm, gpsman &lt;<a href="mailto:gps...&#64;driversmail.com" target="_blank">gps...&#64;driversmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Mar 9, 6:57 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; gpsman wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; On Mar 5, 1:35 pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethyll...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethyll...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P) wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; And that's the right way IMO. The american prohibitionist
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; tendencies on so many things just create problems. (and that
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; includes driving speed)
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I was with you up until driving speed. We, as a country,
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; absolutely do not have the petroleum resources to keep burning
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; just to go 10-20 MPH faster than peak efficiency. As much as I
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; like to drive fast, I've given it up. Simply because eventually
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the guys managing the energy policy are eventually going to wise
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; up to this, the days of the 55+ speed limit are very likely
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; numbered.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; to do everything quickly.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Quick&quot; $B!b(B &quot;efficient&quot;. -----
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; - gpsman
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Are you kidding? there are whole businesses that specialize in
&gt; &gt; expediting letters, packages, even freight.
&gt;
&gt; Expedite, as a transportation term, does not mean &quot;we'll drive
&gt; faster&quot;, unless you're talking donor organs, or maybe bicycle
&gt; messengers.

It does, however, imply &quot;will be delivered by 10AM tomorrow&quot; or
whatever is quoted at the initiating of the arrangement. &quot;Whatever it
takes&quot; is not just a figure of speech once that commitment has been
made.

&gt;
&gt; &gt; It's to the point where
&gt; &gt; customers look at me funny if I say that something might take &quot;a couple
&gt; &gt; of days&quot; because we have become a society that doesn't like to wait.
&gt;
&gt; I suspect the reason they look at you funny is because customers
&gt; generally don't want to know how long it &quot;might&quot; take, they want to
&gt; know how long it &quot;will&quot; take.
&gt;
&gt; Try saying, &quot;We'll have this for you in 48 hours&quot; and see how that
&gt; works.

Don't even get me started on that. It's not an attitude problem on my
part, it's the Byzantine ordering system that my employer uses - I
can't guarantee squat in terms of parts delivery because I don't even
have an *estimated* ship date until I've already placed an order with
corporate. I've become rather resourceful at creative parts sourcing,
but even so, sometimes I simply can't make guarantees. And it pisses
me off to no end.

&gt;
&gt; &gt; And, of course, nobody wants to be the company that bows out of the race
&gt; &gt; to do everything faster, because customer service is the name of the game.
&gt;
&gt; They don't want to go tits up, or even just realize less profit, for
&gt; failing to manage an expensive resource either.
&gt;
&gt; Unlike most companies whose greatest expense is employee wages, in
&gt; transportation it's fuel, by a long shot, and getting longer.
&gt;
&gt; Figger 250 trucks burning 100g each per day (600mi @ 6mpg) at $3.25g *
&gt; 28 days per month= $2,275,000.
&gt;
&gt; If each driver averages $4K in that 28 day month= $1M.
&gt;
&gt; If those 250 drivers each burn just 1 gallon of fuel extra per day,
&gt; that's $812.50, per day ($22,750/month).

When there's liquidated damages involved, very often any expense will
be cheerfully absorbed (OK, I'm stretching it with the &quot;cheerfully&quot;
part) to avoid even greater expenditures. Excuses are not often an
option in the world of contracting.

nate

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#32: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 23:19:38 by gcmschemist

On Mar 10, 2:14=A0pm, N8N &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">njna...&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Mar 9, 10:22 pm, gpsman &lt;<a href="mailto:gps...&#64;driversmail.com" target="_blank">gps...&#64;driversmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I suspect the reason they look at you funny is because customers
&gt; &gt; generally don't want to know how long it &quot;might&quot; take, they want to
&gt; &gt; know how long it &quot;will&quot; take.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Try saying, &quot;We'll have this for you in 48 hours&quot; and see how that
&gt; &gt; works.
&gt;
&gt; Don't even get me started on that. =A0It's not an attitude problem on my
&gt; part, it's the Byzantine ordering system that my employer uses - I
&gt; can't guarantee squat in terms of parts delivery because I don't even
&gt; have an *estimated* ship date until I've already placed an order with
&gt; corporate. =A0

Dontcha just love gpsturd trying to tell you how to do your job - like
he knows the first damn thing about it?

The irony is freakin' spectacular.

E.P.

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#33: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-10 23:50:34 by Nate Nagel

Ed Pirrero wrote:
&gt; On Mar 10, 2:14 pm, N8N &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">njna...&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;On Mar 9, 10:22 pm, gpsman &lt;<a href="mailto:gps...&#64;driversmail.com" target="_blank">gps...&#64;driversmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I suspect the reason they look at you funny is because customers
&gt;&gt;&gt;generally don't want to know how long it &quot;might&quot; take, they want to
&gt;&gt;&gt;know how long it &quot;will&quot; take.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Try saying, &quot;We'll have this for you in 48 hours&quot; and see how that
&gt;&gt;&gt;works.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Don't even get me started on that. It's not an attitude problem on my
&gt;&gt;part, it's the Byzantine ordering system that my employer uses - I
&gt;&gt;can't guarantee squat in terms of parts delivery because I don't even
&gt;&gt;have an *estimated* ship date until I've already placed an order with
&gt;&gt;corporate.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Dontcha just love gpsturd trying to tell you how to do your job - like
&gt; he knows the first damn thing about it?
&gt;
&gt; The irony is freakin' spectacular.
&gt;
&gt; E.P.

Well, in his defense, I do find the gymnastics that I have to go through
to get ship dates to be absurd, and I don't understand why for time
critical orders I can't pick up the phone and get ship dates *before*
I've already placed the order, so that I can warn customers up front if
an order isn't going to arrive in the time frame in which they are
expecting it. But such is life...

I should probably stop bitching about my job before someone finds out
who I work for :)

nate

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#34: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-11 00:13:13 by gpsman

&gt; &gt; On Mar 9, 6:57 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; gpsman wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Expedite, as a transportation term, does not mean &quot;we'll drive
&gt; &gt; faster&quot;, unless you're talking donor organs, or maybe bicycle
&gt; &gt; messengers.
&gt;
&gt; It does, however, imply &quot;will be delivered by 10AM tomorrow&quot; or
&gt; whatever is quoted at the initiating of the arrangement.

In that case it's a statement, not an implication, and in any case
it's irrelevant. It'll get there when it gets there.

&gt; &quot;Whatever it
&gt; takes&quot; is not just a figure of speech once that commitment has been
&gt; made.

Yes, yes it is. The absolute final authority of &quot;whatever it takes&quot;
is the driver, the person with the most to lose by actually doing
&quot;whatever it takes&quot;.

And anybody who regularly ships shit generally knows what's involved
in shipping shit (or is at least in the middle of the lessons), and
doesn't expect to ship shit in less time than is reasonable.

Factories have, for the most part, been doing what they do for a
number of years. They know how much Z it takes to make a number of Y,
how much Z is on-hand, and when it will be needed, and they don't
order it that morning and expect it to be delivered yesterday.

Successful companies aren't operated by morons, as you seem to think.

&gt; &gt; &gt; It's to the point where
&gt; &gt; &gt; customers look at me funny if I say that something might take &quot;a couple
&gt; &gt; &gt; of days&quot; because we have become a society that doesn't like to wait.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I suspect the reason they look at you funny is because customers
&gt; &gt; generally don't want to know how long it &quot;might&quot; take, they want to
&gt; &gt; know how long it &quot;will&quot; take.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Try saying, &quot;We'll have this for you in 48 hours&quot; and see how that
&gt; &gt; works.
&gt;
&gt; Don't even get me started on that. It's not an attitude problem on my
&gt; part, it's the Byzantine ordering system that my employer uses - I
&gt; can't guarantee squat in terms of parts delivery because I don't even
&gt; have an *estimated* ship date until I've already placed an order with
&gt; corporate. I've become rather resourceful at creative parts sourcing,
&gt; but even so, sometimes I simply can't make guarantees. And it pisses
&gt; me off to no end.

That hardly seems anything to be pissed about.

I mean, you can get it eventually, or you can't. How long does it
usually take, or do you never order the same part twice...?

All I know is clients prefer positive answers; 2-5 days, 2 days to 5
weeks, rather than &quot;I might&quot;.

&gt; &gt; &gt; And, of course, nobody wants to be the company that bows out of the race
&gt; &gt; &gt; to do everything faster, because customer service is the name of the game.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; They don't want to go tits up, or even just realize less profit, for
&gt; &gt; failing to manage an expensive resource either.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Unlike most companies whose greatest expense is employee wages, in
&gt; &gt; transportation it's fuel, by a long shot, and getting longer.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Figger 250 trucks burning 100g each per day (600mi @ 6mpg) at $3.25g *
&gt; &gt; 28 days per month= $2,275,000.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; If each driver averages $4K in that 28 day month= $1M.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; If those 250 drivers each burn just 1 gallon of fuel extra per day,
&gt; &gt; that's $812.50, per day ($22,750/month).
&gt;
&gt; When there's liquidated damages involved, very often any expense will
&gt; be cheerfully absorbed (OK, I'm stretching it with the &quot;cheerfully&quot;
&gt; part) to avoid even greater expenditures.

Terms of performance aren't written so tightly that driving faster is
going to help.

&gt; Excuses are not often an
&gt; option in the world of contracting.

If you don't make promises you can't keep, and if you control your
customer, excuses are not necessary.
-----

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#35: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-11 00:21:54 by Nate Nagel

gpsman wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;On Mar 9, 6:57 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gpsman wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Expedite, as a transportation term, does not mean &quot;we'll drive
&gt;&gt;&gt;faster&quot;, unless you're talking donor organs, or maybe bicycle
&gt;&gt;&gt;messengers.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;It does, however, imply &quot;will be delivered by 10AM tomorrow&quot; or
&gt;&gt;whatever is quoted at the initiating of the arrangement.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; In that case it's a statement, not an implication, and in any case
&gt; it's irrelevant. It'll get there when it gets there.

And in the case of a shipper that does not perform with 99.44% plus on
time deliveries, generally a switch to another carrier.

&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;Whatever it
&gt;&gt;takes&quot; is not just a figure of speech once that commitment has been
&gt;&gt;made.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Yes, yes it is. The absolute final authority of &quot;whatever it takes&quot;
&gt; is the driver, the person with the most to lose by actually doing
&gt; &quot;whatever it takes&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; And anybody who regularly ships shit generally knows what's involved
&gt; in shipping shit (or is at least in the middle of the lessons), and
&gt; doesn't expect to ship shit in less time than is reasonable.
&gt;
&gt; Factories have, for the most part, been doing what they do for a
&gt; number of years. They know how much Z it takes to make a number of Y,
&gt; how much Z is on-hand, and when it will be needed, and they don't
&gt; order it that morning and expect it to be delivered yesterday.
&gt;
&gt; Successful companies aren't operated by morons, as you seem to think.

I didn't say they were morons; I said that sometimes things have to be
delivered in seemingly unreasonable time frames, no matter what. And
there's people willing to pay a lot of money for a guarantee of that.

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;It's to the point where
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;customers look at me funny if I say that something might take &quot;a couple
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;of days&quot; because we have become a society that doesn't like to wait.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I suspect the reason they look at you funny is because customers
&gt;&gt;&gt;generally don't want to know how long it &quot;might&quot; take, they want to
&gt;&gt;&gt;know how long it &quot;will&quot; take.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Try saying, &quot;We'll have this for you in 48 hours&quot; and see how that
&gt;&gt;&gt;works.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Don't even get me started on that. It's not an attitude problem on my
&gt;&gt;part, it's the Byzantine ordering system that my employer uses - I
&gt;&gt;can't guarantee squat in terms of parts delivery because I don't even
&gt;&gt;have an *estimated* ship date until I've already placed an order with
&gt;&gt;corporate. I've become rather resourceful at creative parts sourcing,
&gt;&gt;but even so, sometimes I simply can't make guarantees. And it pisses
&gt;&gt;me off to no end.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; That hardly seems anything to be pissed about.
&gt;
&gt; I mean, you can get it eventually, or you can't. How long does it
&gt; usually take, or do you never order the same part twice...?

I've ordered the same parts repeatedly; sometimes they ship the same
day, sometimes it takes a month.

&gt; All I know is clients prefer positive answers; 2-5 days, 2 days to 5
&gt; weeks, rather than &quot;I might&quot;.

I agree, with the caveat that a lot of times even if I can *guarantee*
two day delivery, that's not good enough for some people. I try to be
accomodating to them, because quite honestly, my employer does not
distinguish itself on price, so we attempt to differentiate ourselves
with quality and service.

&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;And, of course, nobody wants to be the company that bows out of the race
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;to do everything faster, because customer service is the name of the game.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;They don't want to go tits up, or even just realize less profit, for
&gt;&gt;&gt;failing to manage an expensive resource either.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Unlike most companies whose greatest expense is employee wages, in
&gt;&gt;&gt;transportation it's fuel, by a long shot, and getting longer.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Figger 250 trucks burning 100g each per day (600mi @ 6mpg) at $3.25g *
&gt;&gt;&gt;28 days per month= $2,275,000.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;If each driver averages $4K in that 28 day month= $1M.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;If those 250 drivers each burn just 1 gallon of fuel extra per day,
&gt;&gt;&gt;that's $812.50, per day ($22,750/month).
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;When there's liquidated damages involved, very often any expense will
&gt;&gt;be cheerfully absorbed (OK, I'm stretching it with the &quot;cheerfully&quot;
&gt;&gt;part) to avoid even greater expenditures.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Terms of performance aren't written so tightly that driving faster is
&gt; going to help.

When you have tens or hundreds of kilobucks hanging over your head in
LD's, sometimes you drive the stuff to the job site yourself. Sure,
it's not going to get charged to you directly but to the GC, but even
so, when they get that bill they will look for someone to blame.

&gt;
&gt;&gt;Excuses are not often an
&gt;&gt;option in the world of contracting.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; If you don't make promises you can't keep, and if you control your
&gt; customer, excuses are not necessary.

Weren't you just busting on me for not making promises? Sheesh. My
boss is hard enough on me as it is, I don't need Usenet armchair
quarterbacks looking over my shoulder too.

My point is, there will always be a market for &quot;unreasonable&quot; shipping
times, and given the local traffic in this area, I sometimes wonder how
expediters manage to do as well as they do.

nate

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#36: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-11 00:52:28 by gpsman

On Mar 10, 7:21 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; I said that sometimes things have to be
&gt; delivered in seemingly unreasonable time frames, no matter what.

And just like your use of &quot;seemingly&quot; in that sentence, you're wrong.

A shipping time frame is either reasonable or unreasonable. You've
confusedly added the time it takes you to cut red tape, etc. to
&quot;shipping&quot;.

&gt; And
&gt; there's people willing to pay a lot of money for a guarantee of that.

Yeah, and they generally ship by air. Few need a truckload of shit
overnighted.

&gt; &gt;&gt;it's the Byzantine ordering system that my employer uses
&gt;
&gt; I've ordered the same parts repeatedly; sometimes they ship the same
&gt; day, sometimes it takes a month.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; All I know is clients prefer positive answers; 2-5 days, 2 days to 5
&gt; &gt; weeks, rather than &quot;I might&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; I agree, with the caveat that a lot of times even if I can *guarantee*
&gt; two day delivery, that's not good enough for some people. I try to be
&gt; accomodating to them, because quite honestly, my employer does not
&gt; distinguish itself on price, so we attempt to differentiate ourselves
&gt; with quality and service.

You call that service...?

&gt; &gt;&gt;Excuses are not often an
&gt; &gt;&gt;option in the world of contracting.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; If you don't make promises you can't keep, and if you control your
&gt; &gt; customer, excuses are not necessary.
&gt;
&gt; Weren't you just busting on me for not making promises? Sheesh.

No, genius, I suggested a better way to present that promise, so that
it can, or has excellent chances of being &quot;keepable&quot;.

Shit happens. Everybody knows shit happens. The bigger the client
the more shit happens at their place.

&gt; My point is, there will always be a market for &quot;unreasonable&quot; shipping
&gt; times, and given the local traffic in this area, I sometimes wonder how
&gt; expediters manage to do as well as they do.

How well do they do...?
-----

- gpsman

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#37: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 01:49:05 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 9, 4:47 pm, Arif Khokar &lt;<a href="mailto:akhokar1...&#64;wvu.edu" target="_blank">akhokar1...&#64;wvu.edu</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; &gt; You can spend a few minutes here and there throughout the day and
&gt; &gt; drive a little slower,
&gt;
&gt; Driving slower doesn't save a significant amount of fuel (I might get an
&gt; additional 30 miles in a tank of gas by driving slower).

That's very substantial. Depending on what you drive, that could be
anywhere from ~0.6 to 3 gallons. Insignificant would be &lt;10 miles per
tank.

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#38: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 01:52:43 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 10, 5:35 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; You've never heard of just in time delivery then.

You've never driven just in time delivery, or you'd understand that
safety and fuel economy is still the priority, the distances involved
just aren't generally more than 250 miles from pickup which is how
things still stay on time. That's how JIT works, not the cocamame
scheme you suggest.

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#39: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 02:02:12 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt; consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt; how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave

You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...

<a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_LJ.43c847c3.html" target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_LJ.43c847c3.html</a>

Report this message

#40: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 02:35:50 by Nate Nagel

Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt;&gt;consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt;&gt;how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt; generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt; current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_LJ.43c847c3.html" target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_LJ.43c847c3.html</a>

Doesn't matter. Would you prefer *some* parental supervision or none at
all? Those are your choices... Truth is, driving is pretty much a
requirement for functioning in society in most areas of the US, so far
better for the initial experience behind the wheel to be supervised than
not.

nate

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#41: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 02:48:00 by Arif Khokar

Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; On Mar 9, 4:47 pm, Arif Khokar &lt;<a href="mailto:akhokar1...&#64;wvu.edu" target="_blank">akhokar1...&#64;wvu.edu</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&gt; Driving slower doesn't save a significant amount of fuel (I might get an
&gt;&gt; additional 30 miles in a tank of gas by driving slower).

&gt; That's very substantial. Depending on what you drive, that could be
&gt; anywhere from ~0.6 to 3 gallons. Insignificant would be &lt;10 miles per
&gt; tank.

No it isn't. In my car, it's probably around a gallon (which in itself
is worth nowhere near as much as the time I lose by driving slower to
save $3.50 worth of gas). Compare that to using 0 gallons in 5 days and
probably around 3 to 4 gallons per weekend to how many gallons you use
per week while driving 50 mph instead of 60 mph. FYI, I don't have to
refuel more often than once a month in the summer (even less if I choose
not to drive on weekends) with a car that has a 16 gallon fuel tank.

Report this message

#42: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 02:48:30 by Arif Khokar

Brent P wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;9G_Aj.5697$<a href="mailto:Sa1.1300&#64;news02.roc.ny" target="_blank">Sa1.1300&#64;news02.roc.ny</a>&gt;, Arif Khokar wrote:

&gt;&gt;&gt; or you can give people in the middle east who dispise us a lot

&gt;&gt; That's because we hate their freedoms.

&gt; That's a good one... mind if I steal it? :)

Sure, go ahead :)

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#43: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 02:57:15 by gpsman

On Mar 11, 9:35 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; &gt; On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt; &gt;&gt;consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt; &gt;&gt;how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;
&gt; &gt; You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt; &gt; generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt; &gt; current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;
&gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_L..." target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_L...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Doesn't matter. Would you prefer *some* parental supervision or none at
&gt; all? Those are your choices...

I'll take Full Parental Or Adult Supervision for 100, Alex.

&gt;Truth is, driving is pretty much a
&gt; requirement for functioning in society in most areas of the US, so far
&gt; better for the initial experience behind the wheel to be supervised than
&gt; not.

Truth is, that would be far better no matter what.
----

- gpsman

Report this message

#44: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 03:27:34 by lazylatvian

On Mar 11, 9:02 pm, Paul Johnson &lt;<a href="mailto:ba...&#64;ursine.ca" target="_blank">ba...&#64;ursine.ca</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt; &gt; consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt; &gt; how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;
&gt; You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt; generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt; current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_L..." target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_L...</a>

Yeah, because NO ONE of legal age ever drinks and
drives................

Report this message

#45: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 03:39:19 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:d045d49c-7f9f-42e1-bdc4-d9b1e3e9dabc&#64;s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">d045d49c-7f9f-42e1-bdc4-d9b1e3e9dabc&#64;s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt;&gt; consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt;&gt; how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;
&gt;You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt;generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt;current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;
&gt;<a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_LJ.43c847c3.html" target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_LJ.43c847c3.html</a>

That sort of attitude is what led to the current problems.

But I like the article: &quot; Troopers say when they arrived, the two
clearly appeared to be under the unfluence.&quot;

Typos usually aren't so funny.

Anyway, the existance of poor parents is a reason to restrict everyone.
Oh well, I should just give up, sit back and just watch the contry go to
hell.

Report this message

#46: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 04:45:58 by websurf1

On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; I have a different view on this. Where I grew up, I was licensed at age 14,
&gt; and there was NO public transportation available, and everything was driving
&gt; distance from just about everything else.

I'm going to hazard a guess that this was rural, and let's just say,
quite a while ago, no?
If so, well, a lot of things were different then.


&gt; In areas where school buses operate at high school level and they make you
&gt; wait until 16 or 17 to get your license, the 17 year old drivers are MUCH
&gt; more dangerous than the 14 year old drivers that must drive, just to stay in
&gt; school.

That's not my particular observation. Again, perhaps location has
something to do with it, although I grew up in a somewhat rural area
(northern MN)

&gt; So many people advocate RAISING the minimum driving age to 17 or 18 or
&gt; ????????
&gt;
&gt; But this ignores a very scary reality. We all know that parents of
&gt; teenagers aren't always great drivers, but for the most part they do give a
&gt; damn about TRYING to teach their kids to drive safely. By raising minimum
&gt; driving age to 17 or 18, you are severely restricting the time frame in
&gt; which the parents have the opportunity to TRY to teach their kids how to
&gt; drive safely. End result is that our kids learn to drive from other kids
&gt; after they head off to college in another state. Is that what we REALLY
&gt; want? It certainly scares the shit out of me.
&gt;
&gt; I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt; consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt; how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave

That's an interesting viewpoint.
Overall, though, these days I'd still see it the other way.

Report this message

#47: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 07:37:35 by davidjcorcoran

On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; Lots of states used to allow 14 year olds (or whatever) to drive farm
&gt; &gt; implements on non-freeway roads. There were usually a ton of
&gt; &gt; restrictions--no night driving, only between your properties, etc.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Putting 14 year olds in regular driving situations is a great way to
&gt; &gt; reduce the general population.
&gt;
&gt; I have a different view on this. Where I grew up, I was licensed at age 14,
&gt; and there was NO public transportation available, and everything was driving
&gt; distance from just about everything else. In high school, every student
&gt; drove to school as there was no bus service and bus service would have been
&gt; prohibitively expensive due to the low population density. In areas where
&gt; driving is legal at young ages like 14, there is usually a really good
&gt; reason for that, which boils down to, you must drive...not for
&gt; entertainment, but just to maintain your regular every day routine.
&gt; When I was 14, driving was not such a big deal. Yeah, there were some
&gt; hotheads who were irresponsible but for the most part my 14-15 year old
&gt; peers treated their cars like the transportation appliance that it was, not
&gt; a toy.
&gt;
&gt; In areas where school buses operate at high school level and they make you
&gt; wait until 16 or 17 to get your license, the 17 year old drivers are MUCH
&gt; more dangerous than the 14 year old drivers that must drive, just to stay in
&gt; school.
&gt;
&gt; So many people advocate RAISING the minimum driving age to 17 or 18 or
&gt; ????????
&gt;
&gt; But this ignores a very scary reality. We all know that parents of
&gt; teenagers aren't always great drivers, but for the most part they do give a
&gt; damn about TRYING to teach their kids to drive safely. By raising minimum
&gt; driving age to 17 or 18, you are severely restricting the time frame in
&gt; which the parents have the opportunity to TRY to teach their kids how to
&gt; drive safely. End result is that our kids learn to drive from other kids
&gt; after they head off to college in another state. Is that what we REALLY
&gt; want? It certainly scares the shit out of me.
&gt;
&gt; I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt; consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt; how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave

I'm in full agreement with you. I grew up in a similar situation where
I was out in the country in Idaho and I had to drive to get to school
at 15, so I did. And what I found is that upon arriving in college the
15 year old Idaho drivers who'd had their license for 3 years were far
more responsible then the 18 year old California drivers who had had
their license for six months. An 18 year old driving age makes it
really tough to break into driving .

I grew up in McCall, Idaho. When I was 15, I was allowed to go to
school, home and that's it. As I got older my parents were able to
slowly extend the leash and by the time I was 17 I was allowed to
drive to Boise (down admittedly dangerous SH 55). By the time I went
off to college in Washington I had almost four years of driving
experience under my belt and it was not a big deal for me to make the
McCall ID to Seattle trek underany weather conditions.

These kids that have had their licenses for six months and are then
allowed to drive 500-1000 miles for college are scary. They're not
only not used to not driving but they likely haven't had an
oppurtunity to build up their driving &quot;endurance.&quot; I don't trust
someone who has never driven more then an hour to get in the car and
drive 12- 14 hours. That's scary, and kids should be given time to
build up to that level.

I admit that getting my driver's license at a young age in rural
conditions with horrible snow conditions probably put me at an
advantage compared to city kids getting their license at 15. I got my
driver's license in November and didn't see a road without ice for 6
months (and during my formative driving years I only had the luxury of
driving on dry pavement about 40% of the time), and I'd guess that the
overexposure to highly adverse weather conditions made me a more
responsible young driver (on my way in to school every day you'd
generally see three or four tourists with their cars in the ditch).

And as such, I had already driven in moderate two lane traffic for 2
years before I even touched a four lane road (nearest four lane road
(truck lanes excepted) from McCall being in Boise or Weiser). While
that may sound scary, the adjustment was really easy because I was
already completely in control of the car, and I feel like I became a
pretty good city driver pretty quickly.

I guess the point is that I think adequate time needs to be given to
slowly break kids into the road. I really think kids will be better
drivers if they are slowly pushed into tougher traffic conditions and
longer drives from a younger age then if they are just handed the keys
and sent off to college at 18.

Report this message

#48: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 08:41:01 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 11, 6:35 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; &gt; On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt; &gt;&gt;consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt; &gt;&gt;how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;
&gt; &gt; You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt; &gt; generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt; &gt; current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;
&gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_L..." target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_L...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Doesn't matter. Would you prefer *some* parental supervision or none at
&gt; all? Those are your choices... Truth is, driving is pretty much a
&gt; requirement for functioning in society in most areas of the US, so far
&gt; better for the initial experience behind the wheel to be supervised than
&gt; not.

Did you read that article at all? Supervision was involved.

Report this message

#49: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 08:44:51 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 11, 11:37 pm, &quot;<a href="mailto:davidjcorco...&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">davidjcorco...&#64;gmail.com</a>&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:davidjcorco...&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">davidjcorco...&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; I'm in full agreement with you. I grew up in a similar situation where
&gt; I was out in the country in Idaho and I had to drive to get to school
&gt; at 15, so I did. And what I found is that upon arriving in college the
&gt; 15 year old Idaho drivers who'd had their license for 3 years were far
&gt; more responsible then the 18 year old California drivers who had had
&gt; their license for six months. An 18 year old driving age makes it
&gt; really tough to break into driving .

That's not really a fair comparison. A half-retarded monkey or that
drunk teenager from that NWCN story are, on average, more competant
than a Californian driver with 20 years of experience.

Report this message

#50: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 13:29:20 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a748&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a748&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;On Mar 11, 6:35 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt; On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt;&gt; &gt; generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt;&gt; &gt; current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_L..." target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_L...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Doesn't matter. Would you prefer *some* parental supervision or none at
&gt;&gt; all? Those are your choices... Truth is, driving is pretty much a
&gt;&gt; requirement for functioning in society in most areas of the US, so far
&gt;&gt; better for the initial experience behind the wheel to be supervised than
&gt;&gt; not.
&gt;
&gt;Did you read that article at all? Supervision was involved.

So a few bad parents mean that everyone else has to be restricted?

Report this message

#51: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 14:13:07 by N8N

On Mar 12, 8:29=A0am, <a href="mailto:tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P)
wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups." target="_blank">6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.</a>=
com&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; &gt;On Mar 11, 6:35 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental=

&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;consent. =A0This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach t=
he kid
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. =A0-Dave
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; generation by an order of magnitude. =A0This is what happens when the=

&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_L.=" target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_L.=</a>
...
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Doesn't matter. =A0Would you prefer *some* parental supervision or none=
at
&gt; &gt;&gt; all? =A0Those are your choices... =A0Truth is, driving is pretty much a=

&gt; &gt;&gt; requirement for functioning in society in most areas of the US, so far
&gt; &gt;&gt; better for the initial experience behind the wheel to be supervised tha=
n
&gt; &gt;&gt; not.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Did you read that article at all? =A0Supervision was involved.
&gt;
&gt; So a few bad parents mean that everyone else has to be restricted?

Apparently. I don't get it either.

nate

Report this message

#52: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 19:10:24 by betaxxx

On Mar 4, 8:36 pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..." target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt;<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt; &gt; &gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois
&gt; &gt; &gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt; &gt; &gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt; &gt; &gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive down
&gt; &gt; &gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger
&gt; &gt; &gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By lowering
&gt; &gt; &gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt; &gt; &gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt; &gt; &gt; before they're licensed.

This is just more corruption. The auto industry pays congress to lower
driving ages since that means more drivers and more crashes for the
auto industry to profit from.

Report this message

#53: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 19:15:38 by cineaste

On Mar 12, 1:10=A0pm, &quot;Speeders &amp; Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:beta...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">beta...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 8:36 pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..." target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois=

&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive dow=
n
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger=

&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By loweri=
ng
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;
&gt; This is just more corruption. The auto industry pays congress to lower
&gt; driving ages since that means more drivers and more crashes for the
&gt; auto industry to profit from.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; - Show quoted text -

That's baloney. Illinois just raised the age to drive and increased
the amount of time a student driver must have before a license is
granted.

Report this message

#54: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 19:26:41 by Jerry Kraus

On Mar 12, 1:10=A0pm, &quot;Speeders &amp; Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:beta...&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">beta...&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; On Mar 4, 8:36 pm, My Land of Misery &lt;<a href="mailto:gr...&#64;netzero.net" target="_blank">gr...&#64;netzero.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingtraffic/st..." target="_blank"> http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/commutingt raffic/st...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;<a href="http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2zx4la</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- Even as some states impose new restrictions on
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 16-year-old drivers in response to high accident rates, one Illinois=

&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; lawmaker is suggesting going in the other direction -- allowing
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 14-year-olds behind the wheel.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea is to let kids get their learners permits early enough to
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; provide plenty of practice before they're actually licensed at 16.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;I'm not asking for them to be able to jump in the car and drive dow=
n
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the road at 14. I'm asking for them to be able to learn at a younger=

&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; age,&quot; says Rep. Jim Sacia, R-Freeport, the bill's sponsor. By loweri=
ng
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the age for a drivers permit to 14, Sacia argues, it's easier for
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; those young drivers to get much-needed behind-the-wheel experience
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; before they're licensed.
&gt;
&gt; This is just more corruption. The auto industry pays congress to lower
&gt; driving ages since that means more drivers and more crashes for the
&gt; auto industry to profit from.- Hide quoted text -
&gt;
&gt; - Show quoted text -

I'm going to tell you a secret. The United States isn't a democracy.
It's a plutocracy. The rich dictate what politicians will do, and
control who wins elections using money and the media. So, they
regularly manipulate legislators to draft legislation that favors
their corporations, and makes them money. And, they really don't give
a damn about people, whether they live or die, unless they can make
them money. They call that &quot;free market Capitalism&quot;, which they
worship with a truly religious fervor.

Report this message

#55: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 19:41:10 by larrysheldon

Jerry Kraus wrote:

&gt; I'm going to tell you a secret. The United States isn't a democracy.
&gt; It's a plutocracy. The rich dictate what politicians will do, and
&gt; control who wins elections using money and the media. So, they
&gt; regularly manipulate legislators to draft legislation that favors
&gt; their corporations, and makes them money. And, they really don't give
&gt; a damn about people, whether they live or die, unless they can make
&gt; them money. They call that &quot;free market Capitalism&quot;, which they
&gt; worship with a truly religious fervor.

&quot;Jerry&quot; &quot;Kraus&quot;. Since you don't like it or us very much, why don't
you move to Iran or some-such place that suits you better?
&gt;


--
Requiescas in pace o email

Ex turpi causa non oritur actio

<a href="http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/" target="_blank">http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/</a>

Report this message

#56: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 19:47:13 by Jerry Kraus

On Mar 12, 1:41=A0pm, &quot;Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryshel...&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">larryshel...&#64;cox.net</a>&gt;
wrote:
&gt; Jerry Kraus wrote:
&gt; &gt; I'm going to tell you a secret. =A0The United States isn't a democracy.
&gt; &gt; It's a plutocracy. =A0The rich dictate what politicians will do, and
&gt; &gt; control who wins elections using money and the media. =A0So, they
&gt; &gt; regularly manipulate legislators to draft legislation that favors
&gt; &gt; their corporations, and makes them money. =A0And, they really don't give=

&gt; &gt; a damn about people, whether they live or die, =A0unless they can make
&gt; &gt; them money. =A0They call that &quot;free market Capitalism&quot;, which they
&gt; &gt; worship with a truly religious fervor.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Jerry&quot; =A0&quot;Kraus&quot;. =A0Since you don't like it or us very much, why don't
&gt; you move to Iran or some-such place that suits you better?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Requiescas in pace o email
&gt;
&gt; Ex turpi causa non oritur actio
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/" target="_blank">http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/</a>

How about I just take over here, and you can move to Mexico, since you
like the &quot;free market&quot; so much?

In any case, your system is currently self-destructing. It's funny to
watch. I'm enjoying it.

Nice work in Iraq. I'm reading about the Iranian President's
triumphal procession in Baghdad under the eyes of your mercenaries.
Actually, just moving to Iraq would effectively put me in the Iranian
orbit. I could probably work for the Iranians while being in the U.S.
army in Baghdad, these days.

Report this message

#57: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 20:56:37 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:13tg8u6jkb6vcfe&#64;news.supernews.com" target="_blank">13tg8u6jkb6vcfe&#64;news.supernews.com</a>&gt;, Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. wrote:
&gt;Jerry Kraus wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I'm going to tell you a secret. The United States isn't a democracy.
&gt;&gt; It's a plutocracy. The rich dictate what politicians will do, and
&gt;&gt; control who wins elections using money and the media. So, they
&gt;&gt; regularly manipulate legislators to draft legislation that favors
&gt;&gt; their corporations, and makes them money. And, they really don't give
&gt;&gt; a damn about people, whether they live or die, unless they can make
&gt;&gt; them money. They call that &quot;free market Capitalism&quot;, which they
&gt;&gt; worship with a truly religious fervor.
&gt;
&gt;&quot;Jerry&quot; &quot;Kraus&quot;. Since you don't like it or us very much, why don't
&gt;you move to Iran or some-such place that suits you better?

He didn't say if he liked it or not, he said that's the way it is.

I would make one correction to what he has above, replace 'rich' with
'wealthy' as per Chris Rock's routine ;)

Report this message

#58: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 21:03:31 by Jerry Kraus

On Mar 12, 2:56=A0pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P)
wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:13tg8u6jkb6v...&#64;news.supernews.com" target="_blank">13tg8u6jkb6v...&#64;news.supernews.com</a>&gt;, Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. =
wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Jerry Kraus wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; I'm going to tell you a secret. =A0The United States isn't a democracy.=

&gt; &gt;&gt; It's a plutocracy. =A0The rich dictate what politicians will do, and
&gt; &gt;&gt; control who wins elections using money and the media. =A0So, they
&gt; &gt;&gt; regularly manipulate legislators to draft legislation that favors
&gt; &gt;&gt; their corporations, and makes them money. =A0And, they really don't giv=
e
&gt; &gt;&gt; a damn about people, whether they live or die, =A0unless they can make
&gt; &gt;&gt; them money. =A0They call that &quot;free market Capitalism&quot;, which they
&gt; &gt;&gt; worship with a truly religious fervor.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&quot;Jerry&quot; =A0&quot;Kraus&quot;. =A0Since you don't like it or us very much, why don't=

&gt; &gt;you move to Iran or some-such place that suits you better?
&gt;
&gt; He didn't say if he liked it or not, he said that's the way it is.
&gt;
&gt; I would make one correction to what he has above, replace 'rich' with
&gt; 'wealthy' as per Chris Rock's routine ;)

My friend, the Stock Market went down today, after our moronic Fed
Chairmen Ben Bernanke effectively invested 200 billion dollars
yesterday that he doesn't have, in a desperation move to make it go
up. If you don't think we are heading for big changes, in the
immediate future, you are living in a fantasy world.

Not quite sure how things are going to end up. But, they ain't a
stayin the way they are. Not in the U.S. This system is self-
destructing.

Like I say, it's fun to watch.

Report this message

#59: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 21:29:00 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:30f1b901-a9a5-43f7-842e-9e7095ad5747&#64;8g2000hse.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">30f1b901-a9a5-43f7-842e-9e7095ad5747&#64;8g2000hse.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Jerry Kraus wrote:
&gt;On Mar 12, 2:56 pm, <a href="mailto:tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P)
&gt;wrote:
&gt;&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:13tg8u6jkb6v...&#64;news.supernews.com" target="_blank">13tg8u6jkb6v...&#64;news.supernews.com</a>&gt;, Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;Jerry Kraus wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I'm going to tell you a secret.  The United States isn't a democracy.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; It's a plutocracy.  The rich dictate what politicians will do, and
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; control who wins elections using money and the media.  So, they
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; regularly manipulate legislators to draft legislation that favors
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; their corporations, and makes them money.  And, they really don't give
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; a damn about people, whether they live or die,  unless they can make
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; them money.  They call that &quot;free market Capitalism&quot;, which they
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; worship with a truly religious fervor.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&quot;Jerry&quot;  &quot;Kraus&quot;.  Since you don't like it or us very much, why don't
&gt;&gt; &gt;you move to Iran or some-such place that suits you better?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; He didn't say if he liked it or not, he said that's the way it is.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I would make one correction to what he has above, replace 'rich' with
&gt;&gt; 'wealthy' as per Chris Rock's routine ;)
&gt;
&gt;My friend, the Stock Market went down today, after our moronic Fed
&gt;Chairmen Ben Bernanke effectively invested 200 billion dollars
&gt;yesterday that he doesn't have, in a desperation move to make it go
&gt;up. If you don't think we are heading for big changes, in the
&gt;immediate future, you are living in a fantasy world.

I don't know if I made it clear enough, I was agreeing with you, that
you were just offering the effective facts of the matter.

Helicopter boy has more than pissed me off with his actions, since I am
a saver. Today I made a shopping list. If I can figure out if the intake
will clear the shock tower I'll probably end up spending a couple grand
on my maverick's engine. Nice AL set up... sadly though it appears they
set up the intake for an early falcon and there are fitment problems
with later cars. Mavericks have the smallest width between the shock
towers of them all.... Hell I just may even see if the boys at mad max
cars can find me something down under. Might as well spend it....

&gt;Not quite sure how things are going to end up. But, they ain't a
&gt;stayin the way they are. Not in the U.S. This system is self-
&gt;destructing.
&gt;
&gt;Like I say, it's fun to watch.

I don't think anyone is just watching. You're either in the US, a
country that is going to suffer on the edges of the smoldering crater of
economic ruin or in a 'rogue state' that will be subject to attack by
the US miltary. There aren't really any spectators in this only degrees
and kind of hurt.

Report this message

#60: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 22:50:25 by russotto

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0ee8&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0ee8&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
gpsman &lt;<a href="mailto:gpsman&#64;driversmail.com" target="_blank">gpsman&#64;driversmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able to
&gt;&gt; do everything quickly.
&gt;
&gt;Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.

Yeah, that's why I can't send anything via UPS 2-Day Air, or FedEx
Overnight anymore.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Report this message

#61: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-12 22:54:49 by Nate Nagel

Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0ee8&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0ee8&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; gpsman &lt;<a href="mailto:gpsman&#64;driversmail.com" target="_blank">gpsman&#64;driversmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able to
&gt;&gt;&gt;do everything quickly.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Yeah, that's why I can't send anything via UPS 2-Day Air, or FedEx
&gt; Overnight anymore.

Indeed. I just got a rather large box from New Brunswick, shipped two
days ago and was on my loading dock at 9AM.

Sometimes it amazes even me that you can do stuff like this as part of
day-to-day business and nobody bats an eye.

nate

--
replace &quot;roosters&quot; with &quot;cox&quot; to reply.
<a href="http://members.cox.net/njnagel" target="_blank">http://members.cox.net/njnagel</a>

Report this message

#62: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-13 00:38:24 by gpsman

On Mar 12, 5:54 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
&gt; &gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0...&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0...&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &gt; gpsman &lt;<a href="mailto:gps...&#64;driversmail.com" target="_blank">gps...&#64;driversmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able to
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;do everything quickly.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Yeah, that's why I can't send anything via UPS 2-Day Air, or FedEx
&gt; &gt; Overnight anymore.
&gt;
&gt; Indeed. I just got a rather large box from New Brunswick, shipped two
&gt; days ago and was on my loading dock at 9AM.
&gt;
&gt; Sometimes it amazes even me that you can do stuff like this as part of
&gt; day-to-day business and nobody bats an eye.

The way I imagine you imagining shipping methodology is reminiscent of
that old Looney Tunes cartoon where an redwood tree is held erect
while a hundred mechanical hatchets come out and chop it to flinders
until a single toothpick teeters, then finally falls into a box.
-----

- gpsman

Report this message

#63: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-13 00:49:01 by Nate Nagel

gpsman wrote:
&gt; On Mar 12, 5:54 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0...&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0...&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt;&gt;gpsman &lt;<a href="mailto:gps...&#64;driversmail.com" target="_blank">gps...&#64;driversmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able to
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;do everything quickly.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Yeah, that's why I can't send anything via UPS 2-Day Air, or FedEx
&gt;&gt;&gt;Overnight anymore.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Indeed. I just got a rather large box from New Brunswick, shipped two
&gt;&gt;days ago and was on my loading dock at 9AM.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Sometimes it amazes even me that you can do stuff like this as part of
&gt;&gt;day-to-day business and nobody bats an eye.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; The way I imagine you imagining shipping methodology is reminiscent of
&gt; that old Looney Tunes cartoon where an redwood tree is held erect
&gt; while a hundred mechanical hatchets come out and chop it to flinders
&gt; until a single toothpick teeters, then finally falls into a box.
&gt; -----
&gt;
&gt; - gpsman

Huh? Did you have a point?

You said &quot;no industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.&quot;
Shipping anything by air versus truck or ship is a perfect example of
exactly that - using more fossil fuel in exchange for quicker delivery
times.

Additionally, there are firms that will do same day or even several hour
local deliveries of parcels - even envelopes - for a fee, of course.
Sure, it would be more efficient to wait until you have a full truck or
van load going to the same place, but sometimes the contents of a single
envelope are important enough that someone will pay.

nate

--
replace &quot;roosters&quot; with &quot;cox&quot; to reply.
<a href="http://members.cox.net/njnagel" target="_blank">http://members.cox.net/njnagel</a>

Report this message

#64: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-13 01:49:24 by gpsman

On Mar 12, 7:49 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; gpsman wrote:
&gt; &gt; On Mar 12, 5:54 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0...&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0...&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;gpsman &lt;<a href="mailto:gps...&#64;driversmail.com" target="_blank">gps...&#64;driversmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able to
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;do everything quickly.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Yeah, that's why I can't send anything via UPS 2-Day Air, or FedEx
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Overnight anymore.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Indeed. I just got a rather large box from New Brunswick, shipped two
&gt; &gt;&gt;days ago and was on my loading dock at 9AM.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Sometimes it amazes even me that you can do stuff like this as part of
&gt; &gt;&gt;day-to-day business and nobody bats an eye.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; The way I imagine you imagining shipping methodology is reminiscent of
&gt; &gt; that old Looney Tunes cartoon where an redwood tree is held erect
&gt; &gt; while a hundred mechanical hatchets come out and chop it to flinders
&gt; &gt; until a single toothpick teeters, then finally falls into a box.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; Huh? Did you have a point?

If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand.

&gt; You said &quot;no industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.&quot;
&gt; Shipping anything by air versus truck or ship is a perfect example of
&gt; exactly that - using more fossil fuel in exchange for quicker delivery
&gt; times.

Lol. &quot;Using&quot; $B!b(B &quot;pissing away&quot;.

&gt; Additionally, there are firms that will do same day or even several hour
&gt; local deliveries of parcels - even envelopes - for a fee, of course.

Yeah, and they don't piss away the additional fees by driving, or
flying even a tiny bit faster.
-----

- gpsman

Report this message

#65: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-13 04:50:26 by russotto

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:fr9jfa01mel&#64;news2.newsguy.com" target="_blank">fr9jfa01mel&#64;news2.newsguy.com</a>&gt;,
Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njnagel&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njnagel&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
&gt;&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0ee8&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">d1d6712d-b9d0-4092-90a3-8c016c0f0ee8&#64;2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt; gpsman &lt;<a href="mailto:gpsman&#64;driversmail.com" target="_blank">gpsman&#64;driversmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;On Mar 9, 5:11 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I strongly disagree. Our economy is too closely tied to being able to
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;do everything quickly.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lol. No industry pisses away fossil fuels in exchange for time.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Yeah, that's why I can't send anything via UPS 2-Day Air, or FedEx
&gt;&gt; Overnight anymore.
&gt;
&gt;Indeed. I just got a rather large box from New Brunswick, shipped two
&gt;days ago and was on my loading dock at 9AM.

I ordered an R/C helicopter from Hong Kong a few months ago. Arrived
at my desk (Philadelphia suburbs) the day after it was shipped --
shipping was about $50, just under twice the cost of the slow boat
(which takes weeks).

But wait, GPSMan says that SpeedPost doesn't exist.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Report this message

#66: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-13 16:04:07 by larrysheldon

Paul Johnson wrote:

&gt; You've never driven just in time delivery, or you'd understand that
&gt; safety and fuel economy is still the priority, the distances involved
&gt; just aren't generally more than 250 miles from pickup which is how
&gt; things still stay on time. That's how JIT works, not the cocamame
&gt; scheme you suggest.

Yeah, safety is always the first concern. Which is why the dispatcher
insisted it would have been better to drive to Vale in the dark and get
stuck in the snow (or worse) rather than waste the two hours available
under HOS by stopping for the night and tackling the mountain passes in
daylight, probably after the storm had passed.

Report this message

#67: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-14 01:44:38 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 12, 5:29 am, <a href="mailto:tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P)
wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; &gt;On Mar 11, 6:35 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_L..." target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_L...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Doesn't matter. Would you prefer *some* parental supervision or none at
&gt; &gt;&gt; all? Those are your choices... Truth is, driving is pretty much a
&gt; &gt;&gt; requirement for functioning in society in most areas of the US, so far
&gt; &gt;&gt; better for the initial experience behind the wheel to be supervised than
&gt; &gt;&gt; not.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Did you read that article at all? Supervision was involved.
&gt;
&gt; So a few bad parents mean that everyone else has to be restricted?

Hanlon's Razor suggests 90% of parents are bad. Visit any high school
and tell me I'm wrong.

Report this message

#68: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-14 01:49:00 by larrysheldon

Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; On Mar 12, 5:29 am, <a href="mailto:tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P)
&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mar 11, 6:35 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_L..." target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_L...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Doesn't matter. Would you prefer *some* parental supervision or none at
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; all? Those are your choices... Truth is, driving is pretty much a
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; requirement for functioning in society in most areas of the US, so far
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; better for the initial experience behind the wheel to be supervised than
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not.
&gt;&gt;&gt; Did you read that article at all? Supervision was involved.
&gt;&gt; So a few bad parents mean that everyone else has to be restricted?
&gt;
&gt; Hanlon's Razor suggests 90% of parents are bad. Visit any high school
&gt; and tell me I'm wrong.

come visit some of the highschools out here in flyover country, where
real people live.


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#69: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-14 01:50:20 by Nate Nagel

Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; On Mar 12, 5:29 am, <a href="mailto:tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P)
&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;On Mar 11, 6:35 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_L..." target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_L...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Doesn't matter. Would you prefer *some* parental supervision or none at
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;all? Those are your choices... Truth is, driving is pretty much a
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;requirement for functioning in society in most areas of the US, so far
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;better for the initial experience behind the wheel to be supervised than
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;not.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Did you read that article at all? Supervision was involved.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;So a few bad parents mean that everyone else has to be restricted?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Hanlon's Razor suggests 90% of parents are bad. Visit any high school
&gt; and tell me I'm wrong.

Even assuming you are correct, is the way to correct the problem to tell
the kids that you *expect* them to be irresponsible? I don't think so.

nate

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#70: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-14 01:56:53 by Paul Johnson

On Mar 12, 11:41 am, &quot;Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryshel...&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">larryshel...&#64;cox.net</a>&gt;
wrote:
&gt; Jerry Kraus wrote:
&gt; &gt; I'm going to tell you a secret. The United States isn't a democracy.
&gt; &gt; It's a plutocracy. The rich dictate what politicians will do, and
&gt; &gt; control who wins elections using money and the media. So, they
&gt; &gt; regularly manipulate legislators to draft legislation that favors
&gt; &gt; their corporations, and makes them money. And, they really don't give
&gt; &gt; a damn about people, whether they live or die, unless they can make
&gt; &gt; them money. They call that &quot;free market Capitalism&quot;, which they
&gt; &gt; worship with a truly religious fervor.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Jerry&quot; &quot;Kraus&quot;. Since you don't like it or us very much, why don't
&gt; you move to Iran or some-such place that suits you better?

What's wrong with trying to fix the system we have so we can be the
best nation on earth again? Not sure if you've noticed, but we've
gradually fallen behind the rest of the first world since the
bicentennial.

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#71: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-14 02:23:58 by larrysheldon

Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt; On Mar 12, 11:41 am, &quot;Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryshel...&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">larryshel...&#64;cox.net</a>&gt;
&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; Jerry Kraus wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; I'm going to tell you a secret. The United States isn't a democracy.
&gt;&gt;&gt; It's a plutocracy. The rich dictate what politicians will do, and
&gt;&gt;&gt; control who wins elections using money and the media. So, they
&gt;&gt;&gt; regularly manipulate legislators to draft legislation that favors
&gt;&gt;&gt; their corporations, and makes them money. And, they really don't give
&gt;&gt;&gt; a damn about people, whether they live or die, unless they can make
&gt;&gt;&gt; them money. They call that &quot;free market Capitalism&quot;, which they
&gt;&gt;&gt; worship with a truly religious fervor.
&gt;&gt; &quot;Jerry&quot; &quot;Kraus&quot;. Since you don't like it or us very much, why don't
&gt;&gt; you move to Iran or some-such place that suits you better?
&gt;
&gt; What's wrong with trying to fix the system we have so we can be the
&gt; best nation on earth again? Not sure if you've noticed, but we've
&gt; gradually fallen behind the rest of the first world since the
&gt; bicentennial.

Sorry, but I don't see any attempt to fix any thing. All I see is never
ending carping about how bad it is here.


And actually, no, I had not noticed that there was any better places to
live. That is precisely why I still live here. We have not fallen
behind any part of the world, much less all of it.

I do notice a lot of the rest of the world coming here for some reason.
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#72: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-14 02:24:21 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:d19f96f7-2003-4c77-80cf-04418c4541e3&#64;d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">d19f96f7-2003-4c77-80cf-04418c4541e3&#64;d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;On Mar 12, 5:29 am, <a href="mailto:tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">tetraethylleadREMOVET...&#64;yahoo.com</a> (Brent P)
&gt;wrote:
&gt;&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">6f899ab7-5d93-46cc-8fa4-21429723a...&#64;i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;On Mar 11, 6:35 pm, Nate Nagel &lt;<a href="mailto:njna...&#64;roosters.net" target="_blank">njna...&#64;roosters.net</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Mar 10, 5:49 am, &quot;Dave C.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:no...&#64;nohow.not" target="_blank">no...&#64;nohow.not</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;I think minimum driving age should be no higher than 15 with parental
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;consent. This gives parents a minimum of 2 years to try to teach the kid
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;how to drive before the kid is out of the parents control. -Dave
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; You overestimate the intelligence of the Beavis and Butthead
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; generation by an order of magnitude. This is what happens when the
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; current run of 14-year-olds are allowed in the driver's seat...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<a href="http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_accident_L..." target="_blank"> http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_031108WAB_hwy_18_a ccident_L...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Doesn't matter. Would you prefer *some* parental supervision or none at
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; all? Those are your choices... Truth is, driving is pretty much a
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; requirement for functioning in society in most areas of the US, so far
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; better for the initial experience behind the wheel to be supervised than
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; not.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;Did you read that article at all? Supervision was involved.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; So a few bad parents mean that everyone else has to be restricted?
&gt;
&gt;Hanlon's Razor suggests 90% of parents are bad. Visit any high school
&gt;and tell me I'm wrong.

Could be 99.9% still isn't justification.

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#73: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-14 02:28:59 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:3f7271a8-2dd3-4cbd-9602-6219e8ba6449&#64;u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">3f7271a8-2dd3-4cbd-9602-6219e8ba6449&#64;u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;, Paul Johnson wrote:
&gt;On Mar 12, 11:41 am, &quot;Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:larryshel...&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">larryshel...&#64;cox.net</a>&gt;
&gt;wrote:
&gt;&gt; Jerry Kraus wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt; I'm going to tell you a secret. The United States isn't a democracy.
&gt;&gt; &gt; It's a plutocracy. The rich dictate what politicians will do, and
&gt;&gt; &gt; control who wins elections using money and the media. So, they
&gt;&gt; &gt; regularly manipulate legislators to draft legislation that favors
&gt;&gt; &gt; their corporations, and makes them money. And, they really don't give
&gt;&gt; &gt; a damn about people, whether they live or die, unless they can make
&gt;&gt; &gt; them money. They call that &quot;free market Capitalism&quot;, which they
&gt;&gt; &gt; worship with a truly religious fervor.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Jerry&quot; &quot;Kraus&quot;. Since you don't like it or us very much, why don't
&gt;&gt; you move to Iran or some-such place that suits you better?
&gt;
&gt;What's wrong with trying to fix the system we have so we can be the
&gt;best nation on earth again? Not sure if you've noticed, but we've
&gt;gradually fallen behind the rest of the first world since the
&gt;bicentennial.

If we want this to be the best nation on earth, we have to shrink the
government, get it out of our lives along with other countries, and make
the dollar sound again. More government controls, more regulation, more
intervention, keeping/enlarging the empire overseas, and more attempts
at managing the economy will only give us more of what we've had for the
last few decades.

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#74: Re: Illinois bill would allow 14-year-olds to drive

Posted on 2008-03-14 07:50:26 by bmw1100gs

Paul Johnson &lt;<a href="mailto:baloo&#64;ursine.ca" target="_blank">baloo&#64;ursine.ca</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Hanlon's Razor suggests 90% of parents are bad.

Are you a parent?

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