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#1: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 17:09:25 by Cryasor

Hi,

Just been asked by a colleague interested in motorcycle mechanics, why we
have a 1 down 5 up gear box arrangement on bikes these days and not the 1 up
5 down or even the N at the bottom of the stack!

Is this just a safety thing, if so what is this reason, or is it just a
standard imposed up on us by the Japanese industry?

Love to get some answers, it's been on my mind for a while now with no
definitive response.

Thanx

KJ

--

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#2: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 17:23:18 by Neal Champion

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 15:09:25 GMT, "Cryasor"
&lt;<a href="mailto:the-crypt&#64;blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">the-crypt&#64;blueyonder.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;Hi,
&gt;
&gt;Just been asked by a colleague interested in motorcycle mechanics, why we
&gt;have a 1 down 5 up gear box arrangement on bikes these days and not the 1 up
&gt;5 down or even the N at the bottom of the stack!

There's a good reason for not having neutral at either end of the
stack - unless you're sure what gear you're in, there's the chance of
changing down from first into neutral, which as anyone who's found a
false neutral on the way into a corner will tell you, is a Bad Thing.

&gt;Is this just a safety thing, if so what is this reason, or is it just a
&gt;standard imposed up on us by the Japanese industry?

I can't think of a safety reason of having &quot;up for up&quot; rather than
&quot;down for up&quot;. The latter is still often referred to as &quot;race
pattern&quot;, as lots of racers use it. The idea is that you don't have
to get your boot under the gear lever to change up, which can
sometimes be a problem accelerating out of long corners. Getting your
boot under the lever to change down is rarely a problem as you're
usually upright when braking for a corner. Also, clicking down for
the next higher gear seems quicker than hooking one up. And,
certainly for racing two strokes, and now the new generation of MotoGP
four strokes, the top racers just pull the clutch in on the way into
the corner and change down 2 or 3 gears in one go and then let the
clutch out again. The bikes brake so hard, and so quickly, that
there's not actually time to let the clutch out between each gear
change!

So, my guess would be that the Japanese just chose to do &quot;up for up&quot;,
sometime in the 70s. It's hardly imposed, except for in the sense
that their industry became so dominant from the 70s onwards. If you
don't like it, it's usually just a 5 minute job to switch the linkage
round so that it works &quot;down for up&quot;.

hth
--
Champ

ZX10R
GPz750turbo
My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle

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#3: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:01:46 by ls650{modelname}

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:23:18 +0100, Champ &lt;<a href="mailto:news&#64;champ.org.uk" target="_blank">news&#64;champ.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:

....

&gt;There's a good reason for not having neutral at either end of the
&gt;stack - unless you're sure what gear you're in, there's the chance of
&gt;changing down from first into neutral....

That makes sense.

.....
&gt;So, my guess would be that the Japanese just chose to do &quot;up for up&quot;,
&gt;sometime in the 70s.

More like the '50's. Honda's first production bike was in 1949. Not
suer when they started being imported to the U.S..

&gt; It's hardly imposed, except for in the sense
&gt;that their industry became so dominant from the 70s onwards.

Called a &quot;de facto&quot; standard -- everyone else follows the leader.

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#4: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:27:52 by Neal Champion

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:01:46 GMT, ls650{modelname}@sbcglobal.net
(Paladin) wrote:

&gt;On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:23:18 +0100, Champ &lt;<a href="mailto:news&#64;champ.org.uk" target="_blank">news&#64;champ.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;...
&gt;
&gt;&gt;There's a good reason for not having neutral at either end of the
&gt;&gt;stack - unless you're sure what gear you're in, there's the chance of
&gt;&gt;changing down from first into neutral....
&gt;
&gt;That makes sense.
&gt;
&gt;....
&gt;&gt;So, my guess would be that the Japanese just chose to do &quot;up for up&quot;,
&gt;&gt;sometime in the 70s.
&gt;
&gt;More like the '50's. Honda's first production bike was in 1949. Not
&gt;suer when they started being imported to the U.S..

Yes, but, the japanese used a variety of gear change patterns into the
70s. I can think of several 70s two strokes that *did* have neutral
at the bottom of the box :-)
--
Champ

ZX10R
GPz750turbo
My advice as your attorney is to buy a motorcycle

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#5: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:40:38 by unknown

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#6: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 20:08:02 by unknown

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#7: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 20:12:53 by Preston II

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:08:02 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon said ...
&gt; We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
&gt; drugs began to take hold. I remember Biker Geek
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net" target="_blank">bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net</a>&gt; saying something like:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:27:52 +0100, Champ &lt;<a href="mailto:news&#64;champ.org.uk" target="_blank">news&#64;champ.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; I can think of several 70s two strokes that *did* have neutral
&gt; &gt;&gt; at the bottom of the box :-)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Didn't at least some of them have a failure mode whereby it was
&gt; &gt;possible, if you weren't aware you were in top gear, to go
&gt; &gt;straight from top gear into neutral when you went to &quot;upshift&quot;?
&gt;
&gt; Not so much that (for what would be the point?), but one of the Yamaha 2
&gt; strokes had a suicide box with a missing stop, where you could go
&gt; straight from top into first.

I thought that had been debunked as an urban miff?

Maybe I dreamt that though.

Paging Loz.
--
Bear

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#8: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 20:40:14 by Andy Bonwick

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:08:02 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
&lt;<a href="mailto:grimly4REMOVE&#64;REMOVEgmail.com" target="_blank">grimly4REMOVE&#64;REMOVEgmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
&gt;drugs began to take hold. I remember Biker Geek
&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net" target="_blank">bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net</a>&gt; saying something like:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:27:52 +0100, Champ &lt;<a href="mailto:news&#64;champ.org.uk" target="_blank">news&#64;champ.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; I can think of several 70s two strokes that *did* have neutral
&gt;&gt;&gt; at the bottom of the box :-)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Didn't at least some of them have a failure mode whereby it was
&gt;&gt;possible, if you weren't aware you were in top gear, to go
&gt;&gt;straight from top gear into neutral when you went to &quot;upshift&quot;?
&gt;
&gt;Not so much that (for what would be the point?), but one of the Yamaha 2
&gt;strokes had a suicide box with a missing stop, where you could go
&gt;straight from top into first.

I always assumed that one to be an urban miss. One of those horror
stories spread about by Suzuki owners to make up for their feelings of
inadequacy.

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#9: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 20:55:26 by Kim Bolton

Cryasor wrote:

&gt;Just been asked by a colleague interested in motorcycle mechanics, why we
&gt;have a 1 down 5 up gear box arrangement on bikes these days and not the 1 up
&gt;5 down or even the N at the bottom of the stack!

AFAIAA it was mandated for all machines sold in the US from a certain
date, probably in the 1970s, and I guess it was easiest to standardise
on that.

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#10: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 21:04:22 by Ian Northeast

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:12:53 +0100, Bear wrote:

&gt; On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:08:02 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon said ...
&gt;&gt; We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
&gt;&gt; drugs began to take hold. I remember Biker Geek
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net" target="_blank">bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net</a>&gt; saying something like:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:27:52 +0100, Champ &lt;<a href="mailto:news&#64;champ.org.uk" target="_blank">news&#64;champ.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I can think of several 70s two strokes that *did* have neutral at
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; the bottom of the box :-)
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;Didn't at least some of them have a failure mode whereby it was
&gt;&gt; &gt;possible, if you weren't aware you were in top gear, to go straight
&gt;&gt; &gt;from top gear into neutral when you went to &quot;upshift&quot;?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Not so much that (for what would be the point?), but one of the Yamaha 2
&gt;&gt; strokes had a suicide box with a missing stop, where you could go
&gt;&gt; straight from top into first.
&gt;
&gt; I thought that had been debunked as an urban miff?
&gt;
&gt; Maybe I dreamt that though.

What I heard (and I don't remember where:) was that an RD250 had a 5 speed
gearbox which actually had the same 6 speed internals as the 400, and you
could remove a stop to get 6 speeds. If you did it incompetently, you
ended up with something as above.

But I never had a 250 and nor did anyone I knew, so this could be complete
bollox.

Regards, Ian

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#11: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 21:29:24 by unknown

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#12: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 21:45:03 by fubar

Andy Bonwick wrote:
&gt; On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:08:02 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:grimly4REMOVE&#64;REMOVEgmail.com" target="_blank">grimly4REMOVE&#64;REMOVEgmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; [...] one of the Yamaha 2 strokes had a suicide box with a missing
&gt;&gt; stop, where you could go straight from top into first.
&gt;
&gt; I always assumed that one to be an urban miss. One of those horror
&gt; stories spread about by Suzuki owners to make up for their feelings
&gt; of inadequacy.

But, in Southeast Asia where the bikes like the Honda Dream and the
Suzuki Smash outnumber cages by maybe ten to one, that shift pattern is
considered normal.

Have a look at <a href="http://phuketdir.com/swsuzuki/index.htm" target="_blank">http://phuketdir.com/swsuzuki/index.htm</a> and look for an
icon that looks like this:

(N)

(4) (1)


(3) (2)

You can shift up from 4 to N to 1, and you can shift down from 1 to N to
4. There's no clutch control on these bikes. The clutch is automatic,
but the gearbox is manual. Operate it with you left foot, just like a
real bike, except the pedal is a rocker: Press with your toe to shift
up, and press with your heel to shift down (or maybe it's the other way
'round, I forget.)

There's usually indicator lights on the instrument cluster to remind you
which gear you're in. Of course, on a rental bike that's been beat to
hell, the lights prob'ly don't work. (Don't ask me how I know.)

Beauty Funny every time.

-- Foo!

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#13: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:19:54 by fubar

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

&gt; [...] one of the Yamaha 2 strokes had a suicide box with a
&gt; missing stop, where you could go straight from top into first.

Hmm... Just realized you said &quot;stop&quot;. That's not how my BMW oilhead
works. Actually, I don't REALLY know. I've never seen the inside of
the gearbox, so maybe there is a stop, but if so, it's redundant.

See, on the BMW, when you're in top gear, you CAN pull up on the lever.
You can pull it up all the way; It just doesn't do anything.
Likewise, in 1st gear, you can press it all the way down, but it don't
turn no shaft.

This is actually an important UI feature that works with the klunkiness
of the oilhead gearbox. If you press down and it don't move, you're NOT
in first: It's stuck, and you need to stomp harder. You've made it to
first when you press down and feel nothing. Either that, I guess or
you've sheared something off.

-- Foo!

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#14: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:42:31 by Timberwoof

In article &lt;FiMwg.6740$<a href="mailto:b9.6472&#64;fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">b9.6472&#64;fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk</a>&gt;,
&quot;Cryasor&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:the-crypt&#64;blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">the-crypt&#64;blueyonder.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Hi,
&gt;
&gt; Just been asked by a colleague interested in motorcycle mechanics, why we
&gt; have a 1 down 5 up gear box arrangement on bikes these days and not the 1 up
&gt; 5 down or even the N at the bottom of the stack!
&gt;
&gt; Is this just a safety thing, if so what is this reason, or is it just a
&gt; standard imposed up on us by the Japanese industry?
&gt;
&gt; Love to get some answers, it's been on my mind for a while now with no
&gt; definitive response.
&gt;
&gt; Thanx
&gt;
&gt; KJ

Argh. You posted separately to various newsgroups instead of all at once
to all of them. I'm adding alt.motorcycles to this thread.

It has to do with practicalities in shifting while in traffic. Someone
else explained how racers use a 1 up 5 down arrangement, but even that
maintains essentially the same feature: N is halfway between 1 and 2,
and while shifting, the gearbox usually skips N.

To put N between any other pairs of gears or after top gear would be
silly: You'd have to click-click-click all the way up to it and then,
when the light turns green, go all the way back down to 1.

To put N at the bottom would also not work practically. As you slowed
down for a red light, stop sign, or other traffic problem, you'd
eventually end up in N, and you would be require to shift again to get
to 1.

I do not consciously think about the number of the gear the transmission
is in; I just know that it's too high, too low, or just right. If I need
another gear on whatever direction, I shift that way. (Sometimes when
I'm riding on the freeway, I want another gear, so I shift up ... and
nothing happens. I was in 5th already.) Likewise, as I slow down, I keep
downshifitng appropriately, and when I come to the end of the gears, the
transmission is in gear and I'm ready to go again without any extra
shifitng.

The only time I need N is when I'm at a long red light. Then there's
enough time to concentrate on the half-click it takes. When the light
turns green, a simple stab downwards takes it into first.

So the &quot;1-down 5-up&quot; pattern is practical in real traffic. (And in my
day-to-day riding, I generally ignore N. During normal shifting, the
transmission skips it, so &quot;1-down 5-up&quot; is not even accurate -- but it
is shorter than &quot;6 gears with N between 1 and 2.&quot;)

As for controls standards, there was a time when there were no mandated
standards for the major controls on a motorcycle. There were all kinds
of confusing arrangements for controls. Someone who had trained on one
style could make serious errors on another. This also complicated
motorcycle training: a newbie might learn one style and then have to
relearn for a different kind of motorcycle. I don't know the history of
different control layouts, but in the end, it was the DOT that mandated
how they work. (They did the same thing for cars, too. By the way, PRNDL
came from Mercedes.)

--
Timberwoof &lt;me at timberwoof dot com&gt; <a href="http://www.timberwoof.com" target="_blank">http://www.timberwoof.com</a>

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#15: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:46:44 by unknown

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#16: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:47:48 by Timberwoof

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:jle7c2526l3m4gtia57v6i94b6t81la19n&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">jle7c2526l3m4gtia57v6i94b6t81la19n&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
Grimly Curmudgeon &lt;<a href="mailto:grimly4REMOVE&#64;REMOVEgmail.com" target="_blank">grimly4REMOVE&#64;REMOVEgmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
&gt; drugs began to take hold. I remember Biker Geek
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net" target="_blank">bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net</a>&gt; saying something like:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:27:52 +0100, Champ &lt;<a href="mailto:news&#64;champ.org.uk" target="_blank">news&#64;champ.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; I can think of several 70s two strokes that *did* have neutral
&gt; &gt;&gt; at the bottom of the box :-)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Didn't at least some of them have a failure mode whereby it was
&gt; &gt;possible, if you weren't aware you were in top gear, to go
&gt; &gt;straight from top gear into neutral when you went to &quot;upshift&quot;?
&gt;
&gt; Not so much that (for what would be the point?), but one of the Yamaha 2
&gt; strokes had a suicide box with a missing stop, where you could go
&gt; straight from top into first.

This happens because the shifting mechanism in a motorcycle transmission
is a barrel with wiggly slots in it. Each transmission fork has its slot
to follow as the barrel rotates, and the barrel has 4 or 5o or 6
canonical positions (plus the 1/2-step between 1 and 2 for N). The
shifter operates a pawl that pulls the barrel in this direction or that,
and a steel ball with a spring pushes on a set of detents in the barrel
to make it lock in a canonical position.

And yup, a badly designed barrel will allow an instant shift between top
and 1. Yikes!

--
Timberwoof &lt;me at timberwoof dot com&gt; <a href="http://www.timberwoof.com" target="_blank">http://www.timberwoof.com</a>

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#17: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:51:40 by Timberwoof

In article &lt;KRQwg.9579$<a href="mailto:Oz3.4327&#64;trnddc02" target="_blank">Oz3.4327&#64;trnddc02</a>&gt;,
&quot;Foobar T. Clown&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:fubar&#64;gazonk.del" target="_blank">fubar&#64;gazonk.del</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; [...] one of the Yamaha 2 strokes had a suicide box with a
&gt; &gt; missing stop, where you could go straight from top into first.
&gt;
&gt; Hmm... Just realized you said &quot;stop&quot;. That's not how my BMW oilhead
&gt; works. Actually, I don't REALLY know. I've never seen the inside of
&gt; the gearbox, so maybe there is a stop, but if so, it's redundant.
&gt;
&gt; See, on the BMW, when you're in top gear, you CAN pull up on the lever.
&gt; You can pull it up all the way; It just doesn't do anything.
&gt; Likewise, in 1st gear, you can press it all the way down, but it don't
&gt; turn no shaft.
&gt;
&gt; This is actually an important UI feature that works with the klunkiness
&gt; of the oilhead gearbox. If you press down and it don't move, you're NOT
&gt; in first: It's stuck, and you need to stomp harder. You've made it to
&gt; first when you press down and feel nothing. Either that, I guess or
&gt; you've sheared something off.

I noticed that on my R-GS. I'd rather have the lever have a bit of give
to it than not move when it's at one end or another, for the exact
reason you mentined.

The clunkiness of the oilhead gearbox is a safety feature. Even the loud
sewing machine sound emitted by the oilhead engine is not enough to be
heard over the usual traffic noise, but the hmmmm CLUNK hmmmmm CLUNK
hmmmm CLUNK is startling enough to alert cagers and pedestrians alike
that something big is headed their way.

--
Timberwoof &lt;me at timberwoof dot com&gt; <a href="http://www.timberwoof.com" target="_blank">http://www.timberwoof.com</a>

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#18: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:51:54 by steve auvache

Timberwoof wrote

&gt;I do not consciously think about the number of the gear the transmission
&gt;is in;

I do. I am quite anal about it really and I count them all up and I
count them all down again and if I had a pencil and a bit of paper
attached to the tank I would probably write it down as well.


&gt; I just know that it's too high, too low, or just right.

Mine is always just right but then I always know what gear I am in
before any changing needs to be done.




--
steve auvache
i rate dates

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#19: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:12:13 by Tunku

&quot;Cryasor&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:the-crypt&#64;blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">the-crypt&#64;blueyonder.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote in
news:FiMwg.6740$<a href="mailto:b9.6472&#64;fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">b9.6472&#64;fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk</a>:

&gt; Hi,
&gt;
&gt; Just been asked by a colleague interested in motorcycle mechanics, why
&gt; we have a 1 down 5 up gear box arrangement on bikes these days and not
&gt; the 1 up 5 down or even the N at the bottom of the stack!
&gt;
&gt; Is this just a safety thing, if so what is this reason, or is it just
&gt; a standard imposed up on us by the Japanese industry?
&gt;
&gt; Love to get some answers, it's been on my mind for a while now with no
&gt; definitive response.
&gt;
&gt; Thanx
&gt;
&gt; KJ
&gt;

No idea, but at one time I had five bikes, mostly Brits, and had 4
different gear change patterns if you include left and right foot gear
shifts. Two had gears on the left, foot brake on the right, but one was
1 up and 2 down, and the other was 1 down and 2 up. The other two were
gears on the right, I wish I could remember the bikes, but time
intervenes. Previous ones had a hand change and a car like gearbox.
I can feel a bout of Alzeimers coming on just thinking about it.
What was the question?

--
Tunku

&quot;end user&quot; v. A command regrettably not implemented in most systems.

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#20: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:26:08 by Pete Fisher

steve auvache wrote:

&gt; I do. I am quite anal about it really and I count them all up and I
&gt; count them all down again and if I had a pencil and a bit of paper
&gt; attached to the tank I would probably write it down as well.

Why does this not surprise me? As definite subscriber to the &quot;I am in
the right one for the moment what ever that happens to be&quot; school.

--
Pete Fisher

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#21: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:34:42 by steve auvache

wrote
&gt;
&gt;steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I do. I am quite anal about it really and I count them all up and I
&gt;&gt; count them all down again and if I had a pencil and a bit of paper
&gt;&gt; attached to the tank I would probably write it down as well.
&gt;
&gt;Why does this not surprise me?

I dunno, it should do because I am not a naturally anal type person but
I do count all sorts of things for no good reason.


--
steve auvache
i rate dates

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#22: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:45:13 by mrkesti

steve auvache wrote:

&gt;Timberwoof wrote
&gt;
&gt;&gt;I do not consciously think about the number of the gear the transmission
&gt;&gt;is in;
&gt;
&gt;I do. I am quite anal about it really and I count them all up and I
&gt;count them all down again and if I had a pencil and a bit of paper
&gt;attached to the tank I would probably write it down as well.

I used to be like that until I bought a GL1200A Goldwing Aspencade. I still
count but I use the gear display for confirmation, espceially when stopped and
I lack the cue of vehicle-to-engine-speed ratio.

&gt;&gt; I just know that it's too high, too low, or just right.
&gt;
&gt;Mine is always just right but then I always know what gear I am in
&gt;before any changing needs to be done.

Roger that!


I wonder what idiotic attempt at inane insult mentioning this Goldwing
feature will have drawn.

--
============================================================ ============
Michael Kesti | &quot;And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one.&quot;
mrkesti at hotmail dot com | - The Who, Bargain

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#23: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:46:02 by unknown

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#24: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:24:38 by Grimly Curmudgeon

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember &quot;Michael R. Kesti&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:mrkesti&#64;nospam.net" target="_blank">mrkesti&#64;nospam.net</a>&gt; saying something like:

&gt;I used to be like that until I bought a GL1200A Goldwing Aspencade. I still
&gt;count but I use the gear display for confirmation, espceially when stopped and
&gt;I lack the cue of vehicle-to-engine-speed ratio.
&gt;
&gt;I wonder what idiotic attempt at inane insult mentioning this Goldwing
&gt;feature will have drawn.

None from me. My ShiteOldGSs used to have working gear indicators but
when they broke it wasn't something I felt inclined to fix. I'd
occasionally find the facility useful when in top and a glance at the GI
would confirm I didn't have another gear to go up. Otoh, when they broke
I would occasionally cruise along at umpteen revs in 4th, thinking I was
in top.

So there ya go. Swines and roustabouts.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a
Every post contains Nutri-Ceramide-R and Pre-Biotics
for your reading pleasure.
<a href="mailto:Folding&#64;Home" target="_blank">Folding&#64;Home</a> Team UKRM <a href="http://www.tinyurl.com/jkxwv" target="_blank">http://www.tinyurl.com/jkxwv</a>

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#25: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:25:31 by Timberwoof

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:44C3EDE9.B85068CF&#64;nospam.net" target="_blank">44C3EDE9.B85068CF&#64;nospam.net</a>&gt;,
&quot;Michael R. Kesti&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mrkesti&#64;nospam.net" target="_blank">mrkesti&#64;nospam.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;Timberwoof wrote
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;I do not consciously think about the number of the gear the transmission
&gt; &gt;&gt;is in;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;I do. I am quite anal about it really and I count them all up and I
&gt; &gt;count them all down again and if I had a pencil and a bit of paper
&gt; &gt;attached to the tank I would probably write it down as well.
&gt;
&gt; I used to be like that until I bought a GL1200A Goldwing Aspencade. I still
&gt; count but I use the gear display for confirmation, espceially when stopped and
&gt; I lack the cue of vehicle-to-engine-speed ratio.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; I just know that it's too high, too low, or just right.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Mine is always just right but then I always know what gear I am in
&gt; &gt;before any changing needs to be done.
&gt;
&gt; Roger that!
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I wonder what idiotic attempt at inane insult mentioning this Goldwing
&gt; feature will have drawn.

My R1100GS has a gear indicator, too, but I don't use it much.

--
Timberwoof &lt;me at timberwoof dot com&gt; <a href="http://www.timberwoof.com" target="_blank">http://www.timberwoof.com</a>

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#26: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:28:07 by Timberwoof

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:ptn7c2drqin10eafu8e4pcguqsifbij4le&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">ptn7c2drqin10eafu8e4pcguqsifbij4le&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:deadmail&#64;burnt.org.uk" target="_blank">deadmail&#64;burnt.org.uk</a> wrote:

&gt; Timberwoof &lt;<a href="mailto:timberwoof.spam&#64;infernosoft.com" target="_blank">timberwoof.spam&#64;infernosoft.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:timberwoof.spam-98BB9F.13423123072006&#64;nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net" target="_blank">timberwoof.spam-98BB9F.13423123072006&#64;nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net</a>&gt;:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;To put N at the bottom would also not work practically. As you slowed
&gt; &gt;down for a red light, stop sign, or other traffic problem, you'd
&gt; &gt;eventually end up in N, and you would be require to shift again to get
&gt; &gt;to 1.
&gt;
&gt; This doesn't make sense (to me).
&gt;
&gt; If N's at the bottom, you'd click down from first to neutral. Then when
&gt; you pulled away you'd change up to first.
&gt;
&gt; If N's between 1st and 2nd you click from 2nd to N or 1st to N and stop.
&gt; Then when you pulled away you'd change down to first.
&gt;
&gt; I don't see the difference.

The difference is that if N is at the bottom, you'd often or always end
up shifting into N, and then you'd *have* to shift back up into 1.

If N is in between 2 and 1, you can skip N on the way down, and be in
1st during the stop. And that's useful for when some idiot cager behind
you wants to do a SMIDSY and stop at the line instead of behind you.

--
Timberwoof &lt;me at timberwoof dot com&gt; <a href="http://www.timberwoof.com" target="_blank">http://www.timberwoof.com</a>

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#27: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:32:49 by unknown

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#28: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:46:00 by martin coogan

&quot;Tunku&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:stuartggray-nospam&#64;dsl.pipex.com" target="_blank">stuartggray-nospam&#64;dsl.pipex.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:Xns9809E1DE8CDDFstuartggraydslpipexc&#64;216.196.109.145..." target="_blank">Xns9809E1DE8CDDFstuartggraydslpipexc&#64;216.196.109.145...</a>
&gt; &quot;Cryasor&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:the-crypt&#64;blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">the-crypt&#64;blueyonder.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote in
&gt; news:FiMwg.6740$<a href="mailto:b9.6472&#64;fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk" target="_blank">b9.6472&#64;fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk</a>:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Hi,
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Just been asked by a colleague interested in motorcycle mechanics, why
&gt;&gt; we have a 1 down 5 up gear box arrangement on bikes these days and not
&gt;&gt; the 1 up 5 down or even the N at the bottom of the stack!
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Is this just a safety thing, if so what is this reason, or is it just
&gt;&gt; a standard imposed up on us by the Japanese industry?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Love to get some answers, it's been on my mind for a while now with no
&gt;&gt; definitive response.

&gt; No idea, but at one time I had five bikes, mostly Brits, and had 4
&gt; different gear change patterns if you include left and right foot gear
&gt; shifts. Two had gears on the left, foot brake on the right, but one was
&gt; 1 up and 2 down, and the other was 1 down and 2 up. The other two were
&gt; gears on the right, I wish I could remember the bikes, but time
&gt; intervenes. Previous ones had a hand change and a car like gearbox.
&gt; I can feel a bout of Alzeimers coming on just thinking about it.
&gt; What was the question?

Matchless (1957 G3LS at least) gearboxes were 1 up 2 (or was it 3?) down.

&lt;drifts off into incoherent reminiscences of felt oil filters and exploding
big ends&gt;

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#29: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-24 00:56:20 by Timberwoof

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:17u7c25i583j68tuhc0e47cketgj8rrc4p&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">17u7c25i583j68tuhc0e47cketgj8rrc4p&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:deadmail&#64;burnt.org.uk" target="_blank">deadmail&#64;burnt.org.uk</a> wrote:

&gt; Timberwoof &lt;<a href="mailto:timberwoof.spam&#64;infernosoft.com" target="_blank">timberwoof.spam&#64;infernosoft.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:timberwoof.spam-3C6914.15280723072006&#64;nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net" target="_blank">timberwoof.spam-3C6914.15280723072006&#64;nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net</a>&gt;:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;In article &lt;<a href="mailto:ptn7c2drqin10eafu8e4pcguqsifbij4le&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">ptn7c2drqin10eafu8e4pcguqsifbij4le&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &gt; <a href="mailto:deadmail&#64;burnt.org.uk" target="_blank">deadmail&#64;burnt.org.uk</a> wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Timberwoof &lt;<a href="mailto:timberwoof.spam&#64;infernosoft.com" target="_blank">timberwoof.spam&#64;infernosoft.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:timberwoof.spam-98BB9F.13423123072006&#64;nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net" target="_blank">timberwoof.spam-98BB9F.13423123072006&#64;nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net</a>&gt;:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;To put N at the bottom would also not work practically. As you slowed
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;down for a red light, stop sign, or other traffic problem, you'd
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;eventually end up in N, and you would be require to shift again to get
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;to 1.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; This doesn't make sense (to me).
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; If N's at the bottom, you'd click down from first to neutral. Then when
&gt; &gt;&gt; you pulled away you'd change up to first.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; If N's between 1st and 2nd you click from 2nd to N or 1st to N and stop.
&gt; &gt;&gt; Then when you pulled away you'd change down to first.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; I don't see the difference.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;The difference is that if N is at the bottom, you'd often or always end
&gt; &gt;up shifting into N, and then you'd *have* to shift back up into 1.
&gt;
&gt; Well, I count my gears so I'd only go into N when I wanted to.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;If N is in between 2 and 1, you can skip N on the way down, and be in
&gt; &gt;1st during the stop.
&gt;
&gt; As you could with N at the bottom.

Well, you can argue the point with me if you want to; the OP asked why
the gears are set up this way; I gave some plausible explanations and
showed how they fit in with how I ride (or, more likely, how my style of
riding fits in with how the gears are set up). I guess you're stuck with
counting gears even though you don't have to...

--
Timberwoof &lt;me at timberwoof dot com&gt; <a href="http://www.timberwoof.com" target="_blank">http://www.timberwoof.com</a>

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#30: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-24 01:22:03 by Boat

&quot;Timberwoof&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:timberwoof.spam&#64;infernosoft.com" target="_blank">timberwoof.spam&#64;infernosoft.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:timberwoof.spam-1ACC26.15562023072006&#64;nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net..." target="_blank">timberwoof.spam-1ACC26.15562023072006&#64;nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Well, I count my gears so I'd only go into N when I wanted to.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;If N is in between 2 and 1, you can skip N on the way down, and be in
&gt;&gt; &gt;1st during the stop.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; As you could with N at the bottom.
&gt;
&gt; Well, you can argue the point with me if you want to; the OP asked why

It's an important skill, probably under-developed in most riders because
there are few dire consequences from mis-counting. OTOH, most corners in
street riding are taken in 2nd gear. I like to be in 2nd as I have grown
accustomed its cues on road speed. (2nd gear on my bike is usable between 15
and 85 mph. That about covers the range of speeds I'm interested in. Your
second gear might differ.) Aside from that, keeping count means you can stop
shifting into the non-existent 7th.

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#31: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-24 01:22:03 by Lozzo

Bear says...
&gt; On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:08:02 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon said ...
&gt; &gt; We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
&gt; &gt; drugs began to take hold. I remember Biker Geek
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net" target="_blank">bikergeek&#64;speakeasy.net</a>&gt; saying something like:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:27:52 +0100, Champ &lt;<a href="mailto:news&#64;champ.org.uk" target="_blank">news&#64;champ.org.uk</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; I can think of several 70s two strokes that *did* have neutral
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; at the bottom of the box :-)
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Didn't at least some of them have a failure mode whereby it was
&gt; &gt; &gt;possible, if you weren't aware you were in top gear, to go
&gt; &gt; &gt;straight from top gear into neutral when you went to &quot;upshift&quot;?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Not so much that (for what would be the point?), but one of the Yamaha 2
&gt; &gt; strokes had a suicide box with a missing stop, where you could go
&gt; &gt; straight from top into first.
&gt;
&gt; I thought that had been debunked as an urban miff?
&gt;
&gt; Maybe I dreamt that though.
&gt;
&gt; Paging Loz.

Half urban myth, half truth.

The RD250 and RD350A had a 6 speed box with the usual '1 down 5 up'
gearbox but 6th was, for some fucking obscure reason known only to some
slanty eyed engineer, blanked off and as such unuseable. Motorcycle
Mechanics - as it was then, it eventually became Performance Bikes - got
their resident 'expert' involved and he explained how to liberate the
missing 6th gear. What he didn't explain was how to put a stop on the
selector drum to ensure you couldn't engage 1st gear directly from 6th.
We've all done it, been flat out in 6th and looking for the next gear
up.

Cue lots of very damaged RD250 and RD350As, and not an inconsiderable
number of broken young lads.

To be fair to MM, they did print an apology and a supplement explaining
the correct method of stopping the selector drum from going full circle
in the next month's issue.

Yamaha decided the RD250 and RD350B should have all 6 gears available.

--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
GSF600SW
&quot;Loz has a god, and this god of his has 16 valves&quot; (tm) Pip, May '06

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#32: Re: 1 up 5 down!

Posted on 2006-07-24 01:22:03 by Lozzo

Cryasor says...
&gt; Hi,
&gt;
&gt; Just been asked by a colleague interested in motorcycle mechanics, why we
&gt; have a 1 down 5 up gear box arrangement on bikes these days and not the 1 up
&gt; 5 down or even the N at the bottom of the stack!

My FS1E had all 4 gears down with neutral at the top. When I bought my
RD250E it took me all of 5 minutes to get used to the box being
different, but there's no way I could ever get on with British style
right foot gearchanges.

--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
GSF600SW
&quot;Loz has a god, and this god of his has 16 valves&quot; (tm) Pip, May '06

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