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#1: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 20:44:09 by steve auvache

This week, I have been mostly fettling my Bloo GS and on the whole
things have gone swimmingly well. Until this evening.

Today we are mostly putting it back together in the expectation of doing
road trials tomorrow to see what (if any) jetting changes may be called
for but with full expectation of having a fully functioning source of
added adrenaline.

Snot fucking working is it. Oh it fired up all right and coughed and
spluttered in that "It is running well enough to be called a place to
start" kind of a way that badly out of tune carbs do and then I got to
work on getting the needles and spacers in more or less the right place
and halfway through it decided it was going to refuse to start.

One flat battery later and I am doing the "we'll try it one end and then
we will try it the other" with the needle heights and the fucker still
refused to start.

I dunno why but something told me I should check the plugs and see if
they were awash with fuel, which they weren't. Neither do they appear
to be awash with sparks, which they were.


I do know that unless it has chosen this moment to be broke it snot the
kill switch. Nor can I see any shiny wires hanging down where there
were not shiny wires hanging down before. This one is not going to give
itself up easily I can just sense it. So, I am not going within a
sword's length of it for the moment, for it's own good.



--
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#2: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 21:53:36 by Paul Wheelock

steve auvache wrote:

>
> This week, I have been mostly fettling my Bloo GS and on the whole
> things have gone swimmingly well. Until this evening.
>
> Today we are mostly putting it back together in the expectation of
> doing road trials tomorrow to see what (if any) jetting changes may
> be called for but with full expectation of having a fully functioning
> source of added adrenaline.
>
> Snot fucking working is it. Oh it fired up all right and coughed and
> spluttered in that "It is running well enough to be called a place to
> start" kind of a way that badly out of tune carbs do and then I got to
> work on getting the needles and spacers in more or less the right
> place and halfway through it decided it was going to refuse to start.
>
> One flat battery later and I am doing the "we'll try it one end and
> then we will try it the other" with the needle heights and the fucker
> still refused to start.
>
> I dunno why but something told me I should check the plugs and see if
> they were awash with fuel, which they weren't. Neither do they appear
> to be awash with sparks, which they were.
>
>
> I do know that unless it has chosen this moment to be broke it snot
> the kill switch. Nor can I see any shiny wires hanging down where
> there were not shiny wires hanging down before. This one is not
> going to give itself up easily I can just sense it. So, I am not
> going within a sword's length of it for the moment, for it's own
> good.

Have you got a can of EasyStart? Works wonders for stubborn bikes, my
70's trials bike had been sitting since the mid eightys and would not
kick over and run. Squirt of EasyStart and ran right up.

Failing that.. It does have fuel in the tank doesn't it?

--
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CB250RSA x3 (Wreck, Racer, Roadbike)
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#3: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 22:00:21 by Pete Fisher

steve auvache wrote:
>
> I do know that unless it has chosen this moment to be broke it snot the
> kill switch. Nor can I see any shiny wires hanging down where there
> were not shiny wires hanging down before. This one is not going to give
> itself up easily I can just sense it. So, I am not going within a
> sword's length of it for the moment, for it's own good.
>

Was it only the carbs that have been disturbed? Nothing else fiddled
with in the ignition system area - even if just to gain access for the
carb work?

When I did the 604 conversion on the Nordie it was a real pig to start
with the new CR33 smooth bore carbs I put on at the same time. On
putting back the standard Teikei twin choke unit it was fine.
Eventually I discovered that my shiny new carbs had been supplied by
Allens without *any* idle jets at all!

I would have suspected idle jet shennanigans if you hadn't found a lack
of sparks. Time for the full Pirsig sleep, before cranking up the
'formal scientific method' approach.

--
Pete Fisher

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#4: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 22:04:45 by Pete Fisher

steve auvache wrote:
> One flat battery later and I am doing the "we'll try it one end and then
> we will try it the other" with the needle heights and the fucker still
> refused to start.
>
> I dunno why but something told me I should check the plugs and see if
> they were awash with fuel, which they weren't. Neither do they appear
> to be awash with sparks, which they were.

Just another thougfht.

I am sure you have since tried it again with a good battery to check
the spark, or is it CDI ignition which is not dependent on a good
battery voltage to produce a spark?

--
Pete Fisher

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#5: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 22:17:18 by steve auvache

Peter Jones wrote
>Have you got a can of EasyStart?

No I haven't oddly enough. I always consider it to be an essential part
of the SOB tool kit but for some reason seem to have run out.

I do now have a half empty can of strong wind which was full which I
have been having great fun blowing down the ant's nest by the back door
though.


>
>Failing that.. It does have fuel in the tank doesn't it?

It doesn't currently have a tank. Instead it is sporting an old half
litre plastic oil can and some fish tank hose and a yard or two of gaffa
tape as a Summer fashion accessory of the kind of arrangement you set up
when you are doing carbs and stuff.





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#6: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 22:35:10 by steve auvache

wrote
>
>steve auvache wrote:
>>
>> I do know that unless it has chosen this moment to be broke it snot the
>> kill switch. Nor can I see any shiny wires hanging down where there
>> were not shiny wires hanging down before. This one is not going to give
>> itself up easily I can just sense it. So, I am not going within a
>> sword's length of it for the moment, for it's own good.
>>
>
>Was it only the carbs that have been disturbed? Nothing else fiddled
>with in the ignition system area - even if just to gain access for the
>carb work?

Theoretically yes only the carbs but who knows what gets pulled and
pushed around when you are having an enthusiastic fettle.

Now that I have calmed down a bit I have been out and begun diagnosis
and the spark is most certainly not big, blue and fat, not evewn in the
failing light of dusk. I can draw a half inch long one no problems but
it is very thin and yellow. And given that it is the same rather weak
insipid yellow both sides I am inclined to be looking at the electronics
come next daylight I think.



>I would have suspected idle jet shennanigans if you hadn't found a lack
>of sparks.

The jets haven't been touched (yet). I bought it a K&N filter in the
fairly certain knowledge that I could get it running well enough to get
me to Tesco and back just by buggering about with the needles and that
the jets could be considered the final fine tuning which could be done
over a period of time. I have done this any number of times before with
mates bikes and cars and never had this issue.


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#7: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 22:38:08 by steve auvache

wrote
>
>steve auvache wrote:
>> One flat battery later and I am doing the "we'll try it one end and then
>> we will try it the other" with the needle heights and the fucker still
>> refused to start.
>>
>> I dunno why but something told me I should check the plugs and see if
>> they were awash with fuel, which they weren't. Neither do they appear
>> to be awash with sparks, which they were.
>
>Just another thougfht.
>
>I am sure you have since tried it again with a good battery to check
>the spark,

No, I am keeping the good battery well away from this until I am ready
to declare it fit to ride. It has got a "good enough" one on there and
it is staying.


> or is it CDI ignition which is not dependent on a good
>battery voltage to produce a spark?

CDI innit.


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#8: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 22:51:02 by steve auvache

steve auvache wrote
> wrote
>>
>>steve auvache wrote:
>>>
>>> I do know that unless it has chosen this moment to be broke it snot the
>>> kill switch. Nor can I see any shiny wires hanging down where there
>>> were not shiny wires hanging down before. This one is not going to give
>>> itself up easily I can just sense it. So, I am not going within a
>>> sword's length of it for the moment, for it's own good.
>>>
>>
>>Was it only the carbs that have been disturbed? Nothing else fiddled
>>with in the ignition system area - even if just to gain access for the
>>carb work?
>
>Theoretically yes only the carbs but who knows what gets pulled and
>pushed around when you are having an enthusiastic fettle.

That said I have been all over the engine and immediate area in the last
week curing oil leaks and taking off fairing mounts and adding the right
number of nuts and bolts to the engine mounting system and putting right
a too long list of really rather unsavoury bodges and generally wiping a
greasy rag over everything that I can see, so who knows what long term
just waiting to happen problem I have uncovered.



Although I am not one to complain me, just not the type, very much a pot
half full rather than the jolly old vessel half empty kind of a fella,
know what I mean? Well I have just had a text from WC announcing he is
going to be missing from ukrm for possibly as much as 3 weeks. Laugh,
it brightened my day no end.





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#9: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 23:22:11 by Wicked Uncle Nigel

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, steve auvache
&lt;<a href="mailto:dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk" target="_blank">dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk</a>&gt; typed
&gt; Well I have just had a text from WC announcing he is
&gt;going to be missing from ukrm for possibly as much as 3 weeks. Laugh,
&gt;it brightened my day no end.

Ten days with good behaviour, surely?

--
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Performance Bikes

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
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Suzuki TS250 &quot;The Africa Single&quot; Yamaha Vmax Honda ST1100 wiv trailer

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#10: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 23:32:46 by steve auvache

Wicked Uncle Nigel wrote
&gt;Using the patented Mavis Beacon &quot;Hunt&amp;Peck&quot; Technique, steve auvache
&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk" target="_blank">dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk</a>&gt; typed
&gt;&gt; Well I have just had a text from WC announcing he is
&gt;&gt;going to be missing from ukrm for possibly as much as 3 weeks. Laugh,
&gt;&gt;it brightened my day no end.
&gt;
&gt;Ten days with good behaviour, surely?

See, now, you are just trying to spoil it aren't you. At least 10 days
even with good behaviour. So much better.


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#11: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-21 23:51:41 by Molly Fletcher

On 2006-07-21 21:38:08 +0100, steve auvache &lt;<a href="mailto:dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk" target="_blank">dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk</a>&gt; said:

&gt; No, I am keeping the good battery well away from this until I am ready
&gt; to declare it fit to ride. It has got a &quot;good enough&quot; one on there and
&gt; it is staying.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; or is it CDI ignition which is not dependent on a good
&gt;&gt; battery voltage to produce a spark?
&gt;
&gt; CDI innit.

Hmm, is this a GS as in Suzuki? If so the CDIs on them will give a
crappy (or non-existant) spark if the battery voltage drops a bit low -
so just 'cause the battery has enough juice to turn the engine over
deosn't necessarilly mean it's got enough to give a good spark.

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#12: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 00:12:38 by steve auvache

Molly Fletcher wrote
&gt;On 2006-07-21 21:38:08 +0100, steve auvache &lt;<a href="mailto:dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk" target="_blank">dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk</a>&gt; said:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; No, I am keeping the good battery well away from this until I am ready
&gt;&gt; to declare it fit to ride. It has got a &quot;good enough&quot; one on there and
&gt;&gt; it is staying.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; or is it CDI ignition which is not dependent on a good
&gt;&gt;&gt; battery voltage to produce a spark?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; CDI innit.
&gt;
&gt;Hmm, is this a GS as in Suzuki?

Is there any other? Shame on you.


&gt; If so the CDIs on them will give a
&gt;crappy (or non-existant) spark if the battery voltage drops a bit low -
&gt;so just 'cause the battery has enough juice to turn the engine over
&gt;deosn't necessarilly mean it's got enough to give a good spark.

Now if that had come from anybody else I would have said bollox but
until such time as my own rapidly expanding expertise with this bike
exceeds yours then I shall have to accept your explanation as being
plausible. Got any evidence, even anecdotal, to back it up? I haven't
come across anything to suggest this.

But it has occurred to me that at the very least I disturbed the wiring
round the pulse generator thing when I had the RHS crankcase cover off.
But that, if it is going to be an iffy wire, shouldn't be both plugs. I
am not confident I will find the problem there.

I have just been out and taken the battery off simmer, so I will let it
cool overnight and see tomorrow.



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#13: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 00:23:20 by Preston Kemp

steve auvache wrote:

&gt; But it has occurred to me that at the very least I disturbed the
&gt; wiring round the pulse generator thing when I had the RHS crankcase
&gt; cover off. But that, if it is going to be an iffy wire, shouldn't be
&gt; both plugs.

&lt;panto mode&gt;

Oh yes it will!

&lt;/pm&gt;


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#14: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 00:35:12 by steve auvache

Krusty wrote
&gt;steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; But it has occurred to me that at the very least I disturbed the
&gt;&gt; wiring round the pulse generator thing when I had the RHS crankcase
&gt;&gt; cover off. But that, if it is going to be an iffy wire, shouldn't be
&gt;&gt; both plugs.
&gt;
&gt;&lt;panto mode&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Oh yes it will!
&gt;
&gt;&lt;/pm&gt;

Go on then explain. 4 wires, 2 line and 2 return. 1 of each to each
generator doobry and no plug anywhere near where I have been playing.
I'd believe one falling off and if it had been a one cylinder issue I
would have been straight back in there.

Granted it could be. Fundamentally it is Automotive Electrix which
remains to this day the Blackest of Black Arts.




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#15: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 00:55:36 by Preston Kemp

steve auvache wrote:

&gt; Krusty wrote
&gt; &gt; steve auvache wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; But it has occurred to me that at the very least I disturbed the
&gt; &gt;&gt; wiring round the pulse generator thing when I had the RHS crankcase
&gt; &gt;&gt; cover off. But that, if it is going to be an iffy wire, shouldn't
&gt; be &gt;&gt; both plugs.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &lt;panto mode&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Oh yes it will!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &lt;/pm&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Go on then explain. 4 wires, 2 line and 2 return. 1 of each to each
&gt; generator doobry

OK maybe not the wires themselves, but you may have wiggled them enough
to break something inside the pick-up coil, or maybe disturbed it so
the gap to the trigger wheel's gone out of spec.

&gt; Granted it could be. Fundamentally it is Automotive Electrix which
&gt; remains to this day the Blackest of Black Arts.

Ain't dat da troof - closely followed by inlet length &amp; airbox design.
And to think spannies used to confuse me.

--
Krusty.

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#16: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 01:08:10 by steve auvache

Krusty wrote
&gt;steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Go on then explain. 4 wires, 2 line and 2 return. 1 of each to each
&gt;&gt; generator doobry
&gt;
&gt;OK maybe not the wires themselves, but you may have wiggled them enough
&gt;to break something inside the pick-up coil,

Two pulse generators. Two entirely separate low and HT circuits all the
way really.


&gt; or maybe disturbed it so
&gt;the gap to the trigger wheel's gone out of spec.

Yes but.... The wheel thing is located on a lump that sort of makes it
hard to not put it in the right place and still do it up. Keyed, I
think is the correct term. Mind you if Molly's is wrong it will be high
on the list of places to poke round.



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#17: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 09:00:09 by Dan L

Molly Fletcher wrote:
&gt; On 2006-07-21 21:38:08 +0100, steve auvache &lt;<a href="mailto:dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk" target="_blank">dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk</a>&gt;
&gt; said:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; No, I am keeping the good battery well away from this until I am
&gt;&gt; ready to declare it fit to ride. It has got a &quot;good enough&quot; one on
&gt;&gt; there and it is staying.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; or is it CDI ignition which is not dependent on a good
&gt;&gt;&gt; battery voltage to produce a spark?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; CDI innit.
&gt;
&gt; Hmm, is this a GS as in Suzuki? If so the CDIs on them will give a
&gt; crappy (or non-existant) spark if the battery voltage drops a bit low
&gt; - so just 'cause the battery has enough juice to turn the engine over
&gt; deosn't necessarilly mean it's got enough to give a good spark.

&lt;Thread Hijack&gt;

Did you get your Zephyr Zorst sorted Molly?

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#18: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 09:10:09 by Kim Bolton

steve auvache wrote:

&gt;Krusty wrote
&gt;&gt;steve auvache wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Go on then explain. 4 wires, 2 line and 2 return. 1 of each to each
&gt;&gt;&gt; generator doobry
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;OK maybe not the wires themselves, but you may have wiggled them enough
&gt;&gt;to break something inside the pick-up coil,
&gt;
&gt;Two pulse generators. Two entirely separate low and HT circuits all the
&gt;way really.
&gt;
&gt;&gt; or maybe disturbed it so
&gt;&gt;the gap to the trigger wheel's gone out of spec.
&gt;
&gt;Yes but.... The wheel thing is located on a lump that sort of makes it
&gt;hard to not put it in the right place and still do it up. Keyed, I
&gt;think is the correct term. Mind you if Molly's is wrong it will be high
&gt;on the list of places to poke round.

Put on the best battery you've got, not one that 'might be good
enough'. You've got enough unknowns there as it is.

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#19: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 16:12:37 by steve auvache

Kim Bolton wrote
&gt;
&gt;steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Krusty wrote
&gt;&gt;&gt;steve auvache wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Go on then explain. 4 wires, 2 line and 2 return. 1 of each to each
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; generator doobry
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;OK maybe not the wires themselves, but you may have wiggled them enough
&gt;&gt;&gt;to break something inside the pick-up coil,
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Two pulse generators. Two entirely separate low and HT circuits all the
&gt;&gt;way really.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; or maybe disturbed it so
&gt;&gt;&gt;the gap to the trigger wheel's gone out of spec.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Yes but.... The wheel thing is located on a lump that sort of makes it
&gt;&gt;hard to not put it in the right place and still do it up. Keyed, I
&gt;&gt;think is the correct term. Mind you if Molly's is wrong it will be high
&gt;&gt;on the list of places to poke round.
&gt;
&gt;Put on the best battery you've got, not one that 'might be good
&gt;enough'. You've got enough unknowns there as it is.

I appreciate your advice but with batteries there are very few unknowns
as far as I am concerned. The battery that is on there, which has been
tested by a very confident about what he is doing me, is more than good
enough and I still have a pristine spare.

It is getting desperate now, I have got the meter out. I have had a go
over things with it this morning and I am fairly convinced it is the
ignition electronics. It is obviously trying to have a go but there
just isn't enough oomph. I could be more convinced mind but the spare
one I have got is going to have to be cut from the donor bike avec
Dremel unless the WD40 works and that will have to wait until play
resumes after the rain.



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#20: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 19:20:34 by Molly Fletcher

On 2006-07-21 23:12:38 +0100, steve auvache &lt;<a href="mailto:dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk" target="_blank">dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk</a>&gt; said:

&gt; Molly Fletcher wrote
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Hmm, is this a GS as in Suzuki?
&gt;
&gt; Is there any other? Shame on you.

Well there's the beemer big traily things.

&gt;
&gt;&gt; If so the CDIs on them will give a crappy (or non-existant) spark if
&gt;&gt; the battery voltage drops a bit low - so just 'cause the battery has
&gt;&gt; enough juice to turn the engine over deosn't necessarilly mean it's got
&gt;&gt; enough to give a good spark.
&gt;
&gt; Now if that had come from anybody else I would have said bollox but
&gt; until such time as my own rapidly expanding expertise with this bike
&gt; exceeds yours then I shall have to accept your explanation as being
&gt; plausible. Got any evidence, even anecdotal, to back it up? I haven't
&gt; come across anything to suggest this.

Well I've owned several GSs and on plenty of occasions had them with a
slightly flat battery (suzuki electrics being what they are) that'll
turn the engine over but it won't start. Checking turning the engine
over on the starter shows a weak spark or no spark. Checking by turning
the engine over by hand and the spark is fine. Bump start it or use the
kickstart if it's got one and it'll start fine. What seems to be the
case is that the CDI needs a certain voltage to fire and the drain of
the starter motor causes a voltage drop which stops the CDI firing.

Easiest was around it is a set of jump leads off something with a less
knackered battery or a start charger.
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#21: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 19:32:57 by Molly Fletcher

On 2006-07-22 08:00:09 +0100, &quot;Dan L&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; said:

&gt; Molly Fletcher wrote:
&gt;&gt; On 2006-07-21 21:38:08 +0100, steve auvache &lt;<a href="mailto:dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk" target="_blank">dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt; said:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; No, I am keeping the good battery well away from this until I am
&gt;&gt;&gt; ready to declare it fit to ride. It has got a &quot;good enough&quot; one on
&gt;&gt;&gt; there and it is staying.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or is it CDI ignition which is not dependent on a good
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; battery voltage to produce a spark?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; CDI innit.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Hmm, is this a GS as in Suzuki? If so the CDIs on them will give a
&gt;&gt; crappy (or non-existant) spark if the battery voltage drops a bit low
&gt;&gt; - so just 'cause the battery has enough juice to turn the engine over
&gt;&gt; deosn't necessarilly mean it's got enough to give a good spark.
&gt;
&gt; &lt;Thread Hijack&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Did you get your Zephyr Zorst sorted Molly?

Not yet - it's actually Melanie's Zephyr not mine so it's when she gets
around to it...
--
Molly Fletcher

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#22: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 19:36:03 by Dan L

Molly Fletcher wrote:
&gt; On 2006-07-22 08:00:09 +0100, &quot;Dan L&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; said:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Molly Fletcher wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 2006-07-21 21:38:08 +0100, steve auvache &lt;<a href="mailto:dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk" target="_blank">dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk</a>&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; said:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No, I am keeping the good battery well away from this until I am
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ready to declare it fit to ride. It has got a &quot;good enough&quot; one on
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; there and it is staying.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or is it CDI ignition which is not dependent on a good
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; battery voltage to produce a spark?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CDI innit.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hmm, is this a GS as in Suzuki? If so the CDIs on them will give a
&gt;&gt;&gt; crappy (or non-existant) spark if the battery voltage drops a bit
&gt;&gt;&gt; low - so just 'cause the battery has enough juice to turn the
&gt;&gt;&gt; engine over deosn't necessarilly mean it's got enough to give a
&gt;&gt;&gt; good spark.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &lt;Thread Hijack&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Did you get your Zephyr Zorst sorted Molly?
&gt;
&gt; Not yet - it's actually Melanie's Zephyr not mine so it's when she
&gt; gets around to it...

I've still got a spare set of downpipes if they're of any use

--
Dan L (Oldbloke)
<a href="mailto:dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com</a>
My bike 1996 Kawasaki ZR1100 Zephyr
Space in shed where NSR125 used to be
Spare Bike 1990 Suzuki TS50X (Patio Ornament)
BOTAFOT #140 (KotL 2005/6), X-FOT#000, DIAABTCOD #26, BOMB#18 (slow), OMF#11

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#23: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 19:43:07 by steve auvache

Molly Fletcher wrote
&gt; Bump start it

Not an option.

&gt; or use the
&gt;kickstart if it's got one

If it had one I promise it would only ever be used to starter the bike
if the bike would reliably start first kick every kick and I would only
do it when in sight of the local 6th form girls college. My days of
jumping up and down on a kickstart are long long gone as far as I am
concerned.



&gt; and it'll start fine. What seems to be the
&gt;case is that the CDI needs a certain voltage to fire and the drain of
&gt;the starter motor causes a voltage drop which stops the CDI firing.

Hmmm.


&gt;
&gt;Easiest was around it is a set of jump leads off something with a less
&gt;knackered battery or a start charger.

Various batteries lying around the estate are currently being evaluated
for exactly this purpose. There isn't anything else left to check. It
has reached the point where I know an awful lot about what it is not and
I am having to consider silliness like this to be a distinct
possibility.

I haven't got a clue where me jump leads are though. I have a horrible
feeling they might have been thrown in as part of a deal to make the
last car I sold a more attractive purchase.




--
steve auvache
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#24: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 20:54:20 by Pete Fisher

steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Various batteries lying around the estate are currently being evaluated
&gt; for exactly this purpose. There isn't anything else left to check. It
&gt; has reached the point where I know an awful lot about what it is not and
&gt; I am having to consider silliness like this to be a distinct
&gt; possibility.
&gt;
&gt; I haven't got a clue where me jump leads are though. I have a horrible
&gt; feeling they might have been thrown in as part of a deal to make the
&gt; last car I sold a more attractive purchase.

True CDI is not directly dependent on battery voltage but the speed
with which the motor is whacked over will determine the output from the
charging coil in the stator and hence the spark strength.

Definitely worth trying a jump from the biggest battery you can get
access to.

The later nordies have an ignition system which at first sight looks
the same as the early CDI but is actually an inductive set up. With
these the battery voltage will directly influence the spark strength.

Otherwise, if the cranking voltage output from the charging coil in the
stator is up to spec. and the HT coil is good (resistance checked out
OK by the sound of it) it looks as if it could be the ignition module
:(

I did once find that some corrosion on the timing 'pips' and the sender
unit, together with an out of spec. air gap between them prevented the
CDI big bore nordie from firing (unless jumped from a car battery).

--
Pete Fisher

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#25: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 21:31:14 by Kim Bolton

steve auvache wrote:

&gt;Kim Bolton wrote

&gt;&gt;Put on the best battery you've got, not one that 'might be good
&gt;&gt;enough'. You've got enough unknowns there as it is.
&gt;
&gt;I appreciate your advice but with batteries there are very few unknowns
&gt;as far as I am concerned. The battery that is on there, which has been
&gt;tested by a very confident about what he is doing me, is more than good
&gt;enough and I still have a pristine spare.

With respect, I acknowledge what you say, but a pristine battery will
remove all doubt about the ignition system if the bike fires up OK.
Once in the situation where you can fettle the running bike, you can
replace the pristine battery and see you the original one works.
Batteries can have peculiar faults, and motorcycle batteries are much
higher-tech that car batteries.

&gt;It is getting desperate now, I have got the meter out. I have had a go
&gt;over things with it this morning and I am fairly convinced it is the
&gt;ignition electronics. It is obviously trying to have a go but there
&gt;just isn't enough oomph. I could be more convinced mind but the spare
&gt;one I have got is going to have to be cut from the donor bike avec
&gt;Dremel unless the WD40 works and that will have to wait until play
&gt;resumes after the rain.

Wot rain....I've got lawn (ROFL) that died ages ago.....

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#26: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 21:35:33 by Molly Fletcher

On 2006-07-22 18:36:03 +0100, &quot;Dan L&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; said
&gt; I've still got a spare set of downpipes if they're of any use

I think the downpipes are OK. It's the collector box/balance pipe
thingie that's rotted out. I suspect she's going to end up getting
Zorstec to make one up.

--
Molly Fletcher

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#27: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 21:44:21 by steve auvache

wrote
&gt;
&gt;Definitely worth trying a jump from the biggest battery you can get
&gt;access to.

No point, I know what the problem was and it wasn't the battery.

It was the plugs.

Nothing that much wrong with the ones that came out really. Last week
they propelled me to all sorts of speeds but after revisiting all the
places I had been and confirming that all the immobilizer immobilizes
only the starter motor relay it just sort of occurred to me to swap
plugs on the bikes and low and behold it worked. I don't understand it.


--
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#28: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 22:07:09 by steve auvache

Kim Bolton wrote
&gt;
&gt;steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Kim Bolton wrote
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Put on the best battery you've got, not one that 'might be good
&gt;&gt;&gt;enough'. You've got enough unknowns there as it is.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I appreciate your advice but with batteries there are very few unknowns
&gt;&gt;as far as I am concerned. The battery that is on there, which has been
&gt;&gt;tested by a very confident about what he is doing me, is more than good
&gt;&gt;enough and I still have a pristine spare.
&gt;
&gt;With respect, I acknowledge what you say, but a pristine battery will
&gt;remove all doubt about the ignition system if the bike fires up OK.

Now I know that a plug change cured the problem and add to that what I
have learnt about that bike over the last couple of days I think I have
half a clue what it might be and it does fit in sort of with what Molly
said and would be more of an issue at low battery voltages but only with
a stuffed battery and very low voltages. On it's own I believe the
battery will behave exactly the same as with any other bike and give
similar problems when problems occur. Mine, as I have said, is fine.
My theory though isn't, as it relies rather heavily on some marginal
sums by Suzuki and plug electrodes increasing dramatically and suddenly
in resistance in old age and I don't think they do that.


&gt; motorcycle batteries are much
&gt;higher-tech that car batteries.

Who told you that load of old bollox? If they were higher tech they
would last a lot longer than 5 minutes out of warranty.




&gt;&gt;It is getting desperate now, I have got the meter out. I have had a go
&gt;&gt;over things with it this morning and I am fairly convinced it is the
&gt;&gt;ignition electronics. It is obviously trying to have a go but there
&gt;&gt;just isn't enough oomph. I could be more convinced mind but the spare
&gt;&gt;one I have got is going to have to be cut from the donor bike avec
&gt;&gt;Dremel unless the WD40 works and that will have to wait until play
&gt;&gt;resumes after the rain.
&gt;
&gt;Wot rain....I've got lawn (ROFL) that died ages ago.....

--
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#29: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 22:10:03 by steve auvache

Molly Fletcher wrote
&gt;On 2006-07-22 18:36:03 +0100, &quot;Dan L&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; said
&gt;&gt; I've still got a spare set of downpipes if they're of any use
&gt;
&gt;I think the downpipes are OK. It's the collector box/balance pipe
&gt;thingie that's rotted out. I suspect she's going to end up getting
&gt;Zorstec to make one up.

What is this &quot;collector box&quot; mechanism of which you and so many others
speak? Is it somewhere to collect the overflow from the liquid cooling
systems that you all seem to favour?


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#30: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 22:11:14 by Dan L

Molly Fletcher wrote:
&gt; On 2006-07-22 18:36:03 +0100, &quot;Dan L&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; said
&gt;&gt; I've still got a spare set of downpipes if they're of any use
&gt;
&gt; I think the downpipes are OK. It's the collector box/balance pipe
&gt; thingie that's rotted out. I suspect she's going to end up getting
&gt; Zorstec to make one up.

look on ebay, bloke that sold me mine has had several since



--
Dan L (Oldbloke)
<a href="mailto:dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com</a>
My bike 1996 Kawasaki ZR1100 Zephyr
Space in shed where NSR125 used to be
Spare Bike 1990 Suzuki TS50X (Patio Ornament)
BOTAFOT #140 (KotL 2005/6), X-FOT#000, DIAABTCOD #26, BOMB#18 (slow), OMF#11

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#31: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 23:26:20 by Pete Fisher

steve auvache wrote:

&gt; It was the plugs.
&gt;
&gt; Nothing that much wrong with the ones that came out really. Last week
&gt; they propelled me to all sorts of speeds but after revisiting all the
&gt; places I had been and confirming that all the immobilizer immobilizes
&gt; only the starter motor relay it just sort of occurred to me to swap
&gt; plugs on the bikes and low and behold it worked. I don't understand it.

Odd. Hope they keep working. Fresh plugs will sometimes spark up OK on
a 'bad' ignition system at first then give up again. At least the
maddening behaviour that two-strokes can exhibit with slightly dodgy
plugs can be ignored.

There was a CR500 at Loton Park last season. It would start, run for a
few seconds then expire. The owner tried various previously perfect
spare plugs all with the same result before assuming it must be
something else. &quot;Nah - just try a brand new plug&quot;, said a stroker
expert. He was right.

--
Pete Fisher

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#32: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 23:51:14 by steve auvache

wrote
&gt;
&gt;steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; It was the plugs.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Nothing that much wrong with the ones that came out really. Last week
&gt;&gt; they propelled me to all sorts of speeds but after revisiting all the
&gt;&gt; places I had been and confirming that all the immobilizer immobilizes
&gt;&gt; only the starter motor relay it just sort of occurred to me to swap
&gt;&gt; plugs on the bikes and low and behold it worked. I don't understand it.
&gt;
&gt;Odd. Hope they keep working. Fresh plugs will sometimes spark up OK on
&gt;a 'bad' ignition system at first then give up again. At least the
&gt;maddening behaviour that two-strokes can exhibit with slightly dodgy
&gt;plugs can be ignored.

I am wondering if it isn't actually something very similar to plug
oiling on a smoker.

In the process of taking it apart and sorting out this and that, I end
up on Thursday evening with a bike that has had everything done that was
planned and only needed starting and having the carbs fettled roughly
before the plastic could be bolted back on and I could get back to me
hooligan ways.

I have got all the bits scattered around and duly set myself up a 1
litre petrol tank gaffa taped to the frame at about the right height and
wiv a tap and everything. The 1 litre petrol tank previously contained
shaftie axle oil, some residue undoubtedly remained. The plastic petrol
can what I used top fill my temporary tank had some petrol smelling
liquid in the bottom to which I added about a quart of fresh stuff from
the tank.

It ran and I was quite happy and set about the business of going in and
sorting it but before I could it ran worse and worse and worse and
finally stopped running at all.

I do wonder if the concoction of &quot;additives&quot; to that first burst of fuel
was enough to send the plugs to an early grave.



&gt;There was a CR500 at Loton Park last season. It would start, run for a
&gt;few seconds then expire. The owner tried various previously perfect
&gt;spare plugs all with the same result before assuming it must be
&gt;something else. &quot;Nah - just try a brand new plug&quot;, said a stroker
&gt;expert. He was right.

Striker experts often are, the cunts. My first journey will be to
somewhere where I can buy new plugs though.




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#33: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-22 23:58:58 by Molly Fletcher

On 2006-07-22 21:10:03 +0100, steve auvache &lt;<a href="mailto:dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk" target="_blank">dont_spam&#64;thecow.me.uk</a>&gt; said:

&gt; Molly Fletcher wrote
&gt;&gt; On 2006-07-22 18:36:03 +0100, &quot;Dan L&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">dan.yodanet&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; said
&gt;&gt;&gt; I've still got a spare set of downpipes if they're of any use
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I think the downpipes are OK. It's the collector box/balance pipe
&gt;&gt; thingie that's rotted out. I suspect she's going to end up getting
&gt;&gt; Zorstec to make one up.
&gt;
&gt; What is this &quot;collector box&quot; mechanism of which you and so many others
&gt; speak? Is it somewhere to collect the overflow from the liquid cooling
&gt; systems that you all seem to favour?

Nope - the Zephyr is aircooled. It's basically just a fat ballance pipe
between the two 2 into 1 exausts on the zephyr but more generally the
collector box is where the downpipes collect together to feed into the
silencer.

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#34: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-23 09:55:15 by Kim Bolton

steve auvache wrote:

&gt;Now I know that a plug change cured the problem and add to that what I
&gt;have learnt about that bike over the last couple of days I think I have
&gt;half a clue what it might be and it does fit in sort of with what Molly
&gt;said and would be more of an issue at low battery voltages but only with
&gt;a stuffed battery and very low voltages. On it's own I believe the
&gt;battery will behave exactly the same as with any other bike and give
&gt;similar problems when problems occur. Mine, as I have said, is fine.

I'm glad to hear that you have the problem sorted.

&gt;My theory though isn't, as it relies rather heavily on some marginal
&gt;sums by Suzuki and plug electrodes increasing dramatically and suddenly
&gt;in resistance in old age and I don't think they do that.

Oh yes they do...or at least, they can.

Some spark plugs, not necessarily all but I'm not too familiar with
the manufacturing technology, have a pressed-together central electode
assembly. The contact between the two pressed-together parts can
corrode over time, which results in a dramatic rise in the resistance
measured between the spark end and the HT-lead end. If you have a
multimeter and the old plugs available, you might like to measure the
resistances, It just could surprise you.

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#35: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-23 20:59:05 by steve auvache

Kim Bolton wrote
&gt;
&gt;steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Now I know that a plug change cured the problem and add to that what I
&gt;&gt;have learnt about that bike over the last couple of days I think I have
&gt;&gt;half a clue what it might be and it does fit in sort of with what Molly
&gt;&gt;said and would be more of an issue at low battery voltages but only with
&gt;&gt;a stuffed battery and very low voltages. On it's own I believe the
&gt;&gt;battery will behave exactly the same as with any other bike and give
&gt;&gt;similar problems when problems occur. Mine, as I have said, is fine.
&gt;
&gt;I'm glad to hear that you have the problem sorted.

Its carburettion though innit, solve one problem and all you do is
highlight another two.

I have been having a play today and the conclusion I draw is an odd one.

On a purely practical side the bike will start and run with the battery
down to below 11.5V, no probs *provided* the plugs aren't sooty. Give
it a minute or two coughing and spluttering on super rich and get the
plugs all sooty and it won't start on anything other than 12.5 or more
volts. At 13+V it don't matter what state the plugs are in, it works.
Interesting. Although it has to be said that it appears much more
sensitive to the height of the fuel supply than anything.

The odd side is what I found when I got inside the carbs and started
measuring and comparing my two sets. How that bike and the donor ran so
reliably I really don't know. Stretched and bent slider return springs,
every float a different and wildly incorrect height, shit in every
passageway, 3 out of the four pilot screws at least one turn too far out
(I cannot be confident about the fourth one though as it seems to be
welded in place and I can't move it, yet), the spacers that go on top of
the needle fitted underneath and raising the needle height an effective
two notches. In general it appears that both sets of carbs have been
got at, for whatever reason and that rather than put right, the bike has
been made to run. And the sad part is that both bikes have a fair bit of
dealer service history and if you add that to the various bodges I have
found elsewhere it is very poor testament to dealer servicing.

Still my pot is half full and things are progressing nicely and I should
be able, if I want, to be back on the road tomorrow.


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#36: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:06:05 by Pete Fisher

steve auvache wrote:
&gt;
&gt; I have been having a play today and the conclusion I draw is an odd one.
&gt;
&gt; On a purely practical side the bike will start and run with the battery
&gt; down to below 11.5V, no probs *provided* the plugs aren't sooty. Give
&gt; it a minute or two coughing and spluttering on super rich and get the
&gt; plugs all sooty and it won't start on anything other than 12.5 or more
&gt; volts. At 13+V it don't matter what state the plugs are in, it works.
&gt; Interesting. Although it has to be said that it appears much more
&gt; sensitive to the height of the fuel supply than anything.
&gt;

Electrics innit - what the mechanic who used to service my Alfa called
'magic'.

Those diagnostics tend to suggest that it might actually be an
inductive system, or as I said earlier you just need to spin everything
over more quickly if the plugs are not perfect.

Carburation is last in the classic list of reasons for an petrol IC
engine not to run:
compression, ignition, carburation.

As you said about putting the K&amp;Ns on - if it is nearly right it will
still run.

Ignition is less tolerant. On the 604 nordie I found going a grade
softer on the plug helped starting a lot - cooking the plug is not an
issue generally when hill climbing.

I must have tempted providence pontificating on CDI and the like, as
the the fucking French electrics on the Tart are posing a particularly
irksome conundrum after a ride to the Trofeo Rosso today. See separate
post coming soon.

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#37: Re: I knew it was goping to be too good to be true.

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:44:17 by steve auvache

wrote
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Electrics innit - what the mechanic who used to service my Alfa called
&gt;'magic'.
&gt;
&gt;Those diagnostics tend to suggest that it might actually be an
&gt;inductive system, or as I said earlier you just need to spin everything
&gt;over more quickly if the plugs are not perfect.

Well yes but the inductive bit is really only creating a timing/trigger
pulse and not actually supplying power to the bit that generates the
spark and...

It runs quite well on one cylinder with the other plug taken out to
lighten the load to test the spin speed effects. I did this and noticed
what happened and pronounce your idea as flaky at best.


&gt;I must have tempted providence pontificating on CDI and the like,

I am not convinced it is wholly or even mostly electrix. I feel they
have just been slightly contributory.

It is a combination of bits being bodged for a particular purpose and I
have been in there setting things back to factory standard and it has
spoilt some of the effects of the bodges. Still, we are at the point
where the vacuum gauges come out for the fine fettling that is happening
tomorrow so the end of the beginning is in sight and then I start the
quest for the &quot;right size jets.&quot;
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