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#1: question for ASME types

Posted on 2006-07-23 17:07:24 by Charles Stembridge

After the last round of posts here regarding torqueing bolts and thread
lubricants, I've been pretty liberally using anti-seize compound (Permatex,
silver paste in a tube) on all critical bolts as well as any steel bolts in
aluminum threads.

The only problem I've run into is when I put the anti-seize on the threads of a
bolt which uses a locking nut. Not sure how best to describe this type of nut,
but on my YZ's they are typically on the rear axle, the brace that connects the
cylinder to the upper frame, and the motor mounting bolts. The nut normally has
a washer-sized base on the contact edge, and the opposite edge has a pair of
"teeth" that must bite into the threads (?).

I noticed some corrosion on the motor mount bolts that use this type of nut, and
now when I try to torque it (69 N-m) it feels like the bolt is getting ready to
shear, and my calibrated arm muscle is telling me I'm way past 69 N-m. I first
noticed this on the frame to cylinder brace a couple months ago after a top end
replacement, and thought my torque wrench was bad. Now I've got a new torque
wrench, and I'm still having this same problem.

Any clues?

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#2: Re: question for ASME types

Posted on 2006-07-23 17:46:13 by Mike Baxter

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 08:07:24 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;After the last round of posts here regarding torqueing bolts and thread
&gt;lubricants, I've been pretty liberally using anti-seize compound (Permatex,
&gt;silver paste in a tube) on all critical bolts as well as any steel bolts in
&gt;aluminum threads.
&gt;
&gt;The only problem I've run into is when I put the anti-seize on the threads of a
&gt;bolt which uses a locking nut. Not sure how best to describe this type of nut,
&gt;but on my YZ's they are typically on the rear axle, the brace that connects the
&gt;cylinder to the upper frame, and the motor mounting bolts. The nut normally has
&gt;a washer-sized base on the contact edge, and the opposite edge has a pair of
&gt;&quot;teeth&quot; that must bite into the threads (?).
&gt;
&gt;I noticed some corrosion on the motor mount bolts that use this type of nut, and
&gt;now when I try to torque it (69 N-m) it feels like the bolt is getting ready to
&gt;shear, and my calibrated arm muscle is telling me I'm way past 69 N-m. I first
&gt;noticed this on the frame to cylinder brace a couple months ago after a top end
&gt;replacement, and thought my torque wrench was bad. Now I've got a new torque
&gt;wrench, and I'm still having this same problem.
&gt;
&gt;Any clues?


Well, now that I have power again, I can post. Did you know that 69
Newton meters is = to 508.9 ft/lbs. I think your manual is has a
misprint. I have to be honest and tell you that I do not use a torque
wrench on motor mount bolts. I just make sure they are good and
tight.

Mike Baxter --------------- &quot;All GasGas, All The Time&quot;

2005 GasGas EC300, 2000 GasGas EC300, 1997 GasGas JXT270

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#3: Re: question for ASME types

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:03:25 by Brokein2

Mike Baxter wrote:
&gt; On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 08:07:24 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt;
&gt; wrote:
SNIPPAGE
&gt;
&gt; Well, now that I have power again, I can post. Did you know that 69
&gt; Newton meters is = to 508.9 ft/lbs. I think your manual is has a
&gt; misprint. I have to be honest and tell you that I do not use a torque
&gt; wrench on motor mount bolts. I just make sure they are good and
&gt; tight.
&gt;
&gt; Mike Baxter --------------- &quot;All GasGas, All The Time&quot;
&gt;
&gt; 2005 GasGas EC300, 2000 GasGas EC300, 1997 GasGas JXT270

Mike,
Move your decimal point 1 to the left. It is 50.98 ft/lbs.

<a href="http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm" target="_blank">http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm</a>

Torquing is to be done with dry threads - applying anti sieze or
oil/grease will prevent proper measurement and will likely result in
overtorqued fasteners.


- Rock Hardly

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#4: Re: question for ASME types

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:09:36 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:sr57c2psr4a8dmd9jd81m014h1al99ic69&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">sr57c2psr4a8dmd9jd81m014h1al99ic69&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
Mike Baxter &lt;m&quot;who&quot;@comcast.net&gt; wrote:


&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Well, now that I have power again, I can post. Did you know that 69
&gt; Newton meters is = to 508.9 ft/lbs. I think your manual is has a
&gt; misprint. I have to be honest and tell you that I do not use a torque
&gt; wrench on motor mount bolts. I just make sure they are good and
&gt; tight.
&gt;

I read your other post, this is understandable.

69 N-m = 610 inch-lbs
= 50.8 ft-lbs

Yeah, I LOVE torque wrenches though. There's something odd going on with these
lock nuts and the anti-seize, regardless of torque wrench or not. It feels like
I could keep tightening until something snaps.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#5: Re: question for ASME types

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:15:29 by Brokein2

Brokein2 wrote:
snippage..
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm" target="_blank">http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm</a>
&gt;
&gt; Torquing is to be done with dry threads - applying anti sieze or
&gt; oil/grease will prevent proper measurement and will likely result in
&gt; overtorqued fasteners.
&gt;
Usually done with dry threads...

I used antisieze on lug nuts on my truck when I wasn't thinking and
used a torque wrench to apply the 110 ft/lbs. they needed. Snapped
a 9/16&quot; stud...

I knew all that training as and aircraft mechanic/engineer would come
in handy....just gotta remember to use it.

- Idaknowitall &quot;ya right...&quot;

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#6: Re: question for ASME types

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:38:37 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153671329.323049.234190&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153671329.323049.234190&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&quot;Brokein2&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dualsport&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">dualsport&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Brokein2 wrote:
&gt; snippage..
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm" target="_blank">http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Torquing is to be done with dry threads - applying anti sieze or
&gt; &gt; oil/grease will prevent proper measurement and will likely result in
&gt; &gt; overtorqued fasteners.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; Usually done with dry threads...
&gt;
&gt; I used antisieze on lug nuts on my truck when I wasn't thinking and
&gt; used a torque wrench to apply the 110 ft/lbs. they needed. Snapped
&gt; a 9/16&quot; stud...
&gt;
&gt; I knew all that training as and aircraft mechanic/engineer would come
&gt; in handy....just gotta remember to use it.
&gt;
&gt; - Idaknowitall &quot;ya right...&quot;

Cool website. I looked for 20 minutes, and couldn't find the above info about
dry threads.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#7: Re: question for ASME types

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:53:45 by Brokein2

HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153671329.323049.234190&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153671329.323049.234190&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &quot;Brokein2&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dualsport&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">dualsport&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Brokein2 wrote:
&gt; &gt; snippage..
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm" target="_blank">http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Torquing is to be done with dry threads - applying anti sieze or
&gt; &gt; &gt; oil/grease will prevent proper measurement and will likely result in
&gt; &gt; &gt; overtorqued fasteners.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Usually done with dry threads...
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I used antisieze on lug nuts on my truck when I wasn't thinking and
&gt; &gt; used a torque wrench to apply the 110 ft/lbs. they needed. Snapped
&gt; &gt; a 9/16&quot; stud...
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I knew all that training as and aircraft mechanic/engineer would come
&gt; &gt; in handy....just gotta remember to use it.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; - Idaknowitall &quot;ya right...&quot;
&gt;
&gt; Cool website. I looked for 20 minutes, and couldn't find the above info about
&gt; dry threads.
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Charles
&gt; '99 YZ250

The info about dry threads comes from my training and many years as a
mechanic.

But if you look here:
<a href="http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners_torque/index.asp" target="_blank"> http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners_torque/inde x.asp</a>

You will see there are ways to compensate for lubricated threads.

I was just referencing the fact that I have seen very few manufacturers
that want lubrication used on torque sensitive fasteners.

- Craig

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#8: Re: question for ASME types

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:58:26 by zodran

HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153671329.323049.234190&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153671329.323049.234190&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &quot;Brokein2&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dualsport&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">dualsport&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Brokein2 wrote:
&gt; &gt; snippage..
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm" target="_blank">http://www.boltscience.com/pages/convert.htm</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Torquing is to be done with dry threads - applying anti sieze or
&gt; &gt; &gt; oil/grease will prevent proper measurement and will likely result in
&gt; &gt; &gt; overtorqued fasteners.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Usually done with dry threads...&gt;snip&lt;

I just dealt with this friday, grade 8, 1/2&quot;-13 called for 105ft. lbs
DRY , but only 64ft. lbs with OILED threads or antiseized as the mfg
recommended. I had to use an extension on one bolt but could feel no
appreciable difference owing to torsional flex before I got a click.
I'm not talking aerospace stuff, just packaging equipment, it was
enough of a bitch getting the broken one out that torqueing the new one
seemed like a real good idea. ;-) DK

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