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#1: Least Reliable American Car

Posted on 2006-07-20 17:48:28 by WoodBee

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Saturn Relay minivan (tie)
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#2: Re: Least Reliable American Car

Posted on 2006-07-21 12:27:03 by Jim

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 08:48:28 -0700, &quot;WoodBee&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:byon&#64;at.com" target="_blank">byon&#64;at.com</a>&gt; wrote:
Please don't feed the troll.

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#3: Re: Least Reliable American Car

Posted on 2006-07-22 03:00:14 by Talkin Horse

&quot;Jim&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ZZZjim_croninZZZ&#64;juno.com" target="_blank">ZZZjim_croninZZZ&#64;juno.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:2va1c2hr8gu1e551cpvphjdqggutovrc31&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">2va1c2hr8gu1e551cpvphjdqggutovrc31&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; Please don't feed the troll.

Why's he a troll? He's pointing out mainstream news evaluations about the
latest Saturns. Those reports may not be the final word on the subject (and
in fact I hope they're not), but they're certainly worthy of being
addressed.

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#4: Re: Least Reliable American Car

Posted on 2006-07-22 05:28:39 by Box134

I subscribe to CR on-line so I thought I mosey on down there and see what
they say since Forbes is using their info.

&quot;Saturn's first minivan is among the GM minivans that have been in
production since 1997. As with the Buick Terraza, Chevrolet Uplander, and
Pontiac Montana SV6, the Relay is powered by a coarse 3.5-liter V6 engine. A
3.9-liter V6 is optional. We found the ride stiff and noisy, the handling
reluctant, and the fit and finish insubstantial. The second-row seats can be
folded and removed, but they are heavy. The third-row seat folds flat on top
of the floor rather than into a well under the floor. This is basically an
outdated and uncompetitive minivan. First-year reliability is much worse
than average. IIHS side-crash test results are Poor without the optional
side air bags and Marginal with them.&quot;

- Consumer Reports

If you delve into the details of the reliability ratings:

Engine - Excellent
Cooling - Excellent
Transmission - Excellent
Drive System - Excellent
Fuel - Good
Ignitiion - Excellent
Electrical - Poor
AC - Very Good
Suspension - Good
Brakes - Good
Exhaust - Excellent
Paint/Trim/Rust - Poor
Body Integrity - Poor
Power equipment - Poor
Body hardware - Fair
Used Car Verdicts - Poor

Really sounds like a poorly made body with excellent power plant. Maybe not
great, but doesn't sound that bad either. Most major components come out
well.

Crash and rollover tests:
Gov't front-crash test, driver: - Excellent
Gov't front-crash test, front passenger: - Excellent
Gov't side-crash test, driver - Very Good
Gov't side-crash test, rear passenger - Excellent
Gov't rollover test, 2WD - Good
Gov't rollover test, 4WDNA - NA
IIHS offset crash testGood - Good
IIHS side crash test, with side air bags - Marginal
IIHS side crash test, without side air bags - Poor

With the exception of side impact, safety is good.

So, all I can say is CR has very high standards indeed. Of course they
slagged the SL2 and here I am still driving the car I bought in Noevmber,
1995.

(In the interests of full disclosure, I don't own a Relay.)



&quot;WoodBee&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:byon&#64;at.com" target="_blank">byon&#64;at.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:12bv9huolh3vh29&#64;corp.supernews.com..." target="_blank">12bv9huolh3vh29&#64;corp.supernews.com...</a>
Saturn Relay minivan (tie)

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#5: Re: Least Reliable American Car

Posted on 2006-07-22 18:17:42 by Tom The Great

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 18:00:14 -0700, &quot;Talkin Horse&quot;
&lt;davidrolfen0sp&amp;<a href="mailto:m&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">m&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&quot;Jim&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ZZZjim_croninZZZ&#64;juno.com" target="_blank">ZZZjim_croninZZZ&#64;juno.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:2va1c2hr8gu1e551cpvphjdqggutovrc31&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">2va1c2hr8gu1e551cpvphjdqggutovrc31&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; Please don't feed the troll.
&gt;
&gt;Why's he a troll? He's pointing out mainstream news evaluations about the
&gt;latest Saturns. Those reports may not be the final word on the subject (and
&gt;in fact I hope they're not), but they're certainly worthy of being
&gt;addressed.
&gt;


Good point.

I wrote off NEW Saturn's as not being American anymore because of
their low percentage of American made components. It seems that this
latest negative press, still promotes them at AMERICAN cars. So in
this case bad press might actually create more buyer loyality.

later,

tom @ www.IRantAndRave.com

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#6: Re: Least Reliable American Car

Posted on 2006-07-23 05:08:07 by Talkin Horse

&quot;Tom The Great&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Post&#64;here.com" target="_blank">Post&#64;here.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:npj4c2dq1bjdul11g63eg6tj594576em0v&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">npj4c2dq1bjdul11g63eg6tj594576em0v&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt; I wrote off NEW Saturn's as not being American anymore because of
&gt; their low percentage of American made components. It seems that this
&gt; latest negative press, still promotes them at AMERICAN cars. So in
&gt; this case bad press might actually create more buyer loyalty.

I noticed this also. I'm sure the question of &quot;what is American?&quot; is
much-discussed with no final resolution, since a number of &quot;foreign&quot; cars
seem more &quot;American&quot; than many &quot;American&quot; cars are. I was drawn to Saturn in
the first place when I saw that Detroit finally built a reliable car with
good mileage. And I guess there's still some truth to that, but it now seems
to be relatively less reliable (although the standards have gone up, so it
may still be decent in absolute terms) with lower mileage and more foreign
components. So there's a sense of a diminished essential appeal, even if
it's still an okay car at an okay price. Maybe that's just a touchy-feely
perception. Then again, the three Saturn dealers closest to me have folded
up their tents and disappeared in the last year.

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#7: Re: Least Reliable American Car

Posted on 2006-07-23 20:41:22 by Tom The Great

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 20:08:07 -0700, &quot;Talkin Horse&quot;
&lt;davidrolfen0sp&amp;<a href="mailto:m&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">m&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&quot;Tom The Great&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Post&#64;here.com" target="_blank">Post&#64;here.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:npj4c2dq1bjdul11g63eg6tj594576em0v&#64;4ax.com..." target="_blank">npj4c2dq1bjdul11g63eg6tj594576em0v&#64;4ax.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; I wrote off NEW Saturn's as not being American anymore because of
&gt;&gt; their low percentage of American made components. It seems that this
&gt;&gt; latest negative press, still promotes them at AMERICAN cars. So in
&gt;&gt; this case bad press might actually create more buyer loyalty.
&gt;
&gt;I noticed this also. I'm sure the question of &quot;what is American?&quot; is
&gt;much-discussed with no final resolution, since a number of &quot;foreign&quot; cars
&gt;seem more &quot;American&quot; than many &quot;American&quot; cars are. I was drawn to Saturn in
&gt;the first place when I saw that Detroit finally built a reliable car with
&gt;good mileage. And I guess there's still some truth to that, but it now seems
&gt;to be relatively less reliable (although the standards have gone up, so it
&gt;may still be decent in absolute terms) with lower mileage and more foreign
&gt;components. So there's a sense of a diminished essential appeal, even if
&gt;it's still an okay car at an okay price. Maybe that's just a touchy-feely
&gt;perception. Then again, the three Saturn dealers closest to me have folded
&gt;up their tents and disappeared in the last year.
&gt;


Actually I heard the FED has responded. I was told, that for a
product to be labeled as a &quot;domestic car&quot; it must contain atleast 75%
American Made Parts, and I think the Assembly must take place in the
US.

So the term American Car might be meaning less like &quot;lite beer&quot;,
doesn't mean anything really.

tom

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