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#1: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:18:11 by D

Hi All,
I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two vehicles
I'm comparing for purchase.

Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very clean
and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact airbags,
90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come down
some from that.

Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options make
it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
$15,200

V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited trim
on a Laredo.
Any candid thoughts?
I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good behind
that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
Thanks.
D

Report this message

#2: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:27:47 by bobmct

D wrote:

> Hi All,
> I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two vehicles
> I'm comparing for purchase.
>
> Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very clean
> and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
> Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
> dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
> airbags, 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will
> come down some from that.
>
> Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
> clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
> make it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
> though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
> passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
> $15,200
>
> V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
> V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited
> trim on a Laredo.
> Any candid thoughts?
> I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
> behind that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
> Thanks.
> D
FWIW: Mostly "Personal Choice".

Myself, I'd go for the Limited even with its higher mileage. I like the Ltd
amenities and the full-time 4WD.

One of my drives is a 96 JGC Ltd with 175K+ on it and it still looks and
runs absolutely great (except for the FM radio).

On the other hand, the lower mileage Laredo is hardly broken in and perhaps
underutilized so things "might" break sooner than later.

Good luck.

Bob

Report this message

#3: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:29:14 by billhughes

I think: <a href="http://www.carfax.com/" target="_blank">http://www.carfax.com/</a> is worth the money, specially after
all the flooding.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:<a href="mailto:LWHughes3rd&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">LWHughes3rd&#64;aol.com</a> <a href="http://www.billhughes.com/" target="_blank">http://www.billhughes.com/</a>

D wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Hi All,
&gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two vehicles
&gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt;
&gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very clean
&gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
&gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
&gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact airbags,
&gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come down
&gt; some from that.
&gt;
&gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
&gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options make
&gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
&gt; $15,200
&gt;
&gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited trim
&gt; on a Laredo.
&gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good behind
&gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; Thanks.
&gt; D

Report this message

#4: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:04:06 by Billy Ray

The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands are the
most common cause of expensive repairs.

The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in the
vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor to
get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace $12
in parts. There may well be no warning before failure

The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a vehicle
that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when accelerating
and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching. When it
fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The real
'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer case.

The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the ATC.
There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan speeds.
It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
driveway in a few minutes

If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department in
chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy, you
can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer can also
be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in your
factory radio.

Other differences.

Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in highway
and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their specific
size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.



&quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; Hi All,
&gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two vehicles
&gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt;
&gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very clean
&gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
&gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
&gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt; airbags,
&gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come down
&gt; some from that.
&gt;
&gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
&gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
&gt; make
&gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
&gt; $15,200
&gt;
&gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited
&gt; trim
&gt; on a Laredo.
&gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt; behind
&gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; Thanks.
&gt; D
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#5: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:44:37 by D

Good thoughts Bob. The amenites are nice and I like the side airbag curtain
idea. I did a oil pump at about 90K on my 93 ZJ inline 6. Makes me a little
gun shy, but I would be able to afford the extended warranty with the lower
price.
Oh, decisions, decisions.
Thank you so much.

&quot;bobmct&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:r.mariottiX&#64;fdcx.netX" target="_blank">r.mariottiX&#64;fdcx.netX</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:R9Vvg.7$<a href="mailto:5v3.542&#64;news.ntplx.net..." target="_blank">5v3.542&#64;news.ntplx.net...</a>
&gt; D wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
vehicles
&gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
clean
&gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
&gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
&gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt; &gt; airbags, 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will
&gt; &gt; come down some from that.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
&gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
&gt; &gt; make it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow
hooks
&gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
&gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited
&gt; &gt; trim on a Laredo.
&gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt; &gt; behind that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt; &gt; D
&gt; FWIW: Mostly &quot;Personal Choice&quot;.
&gt;
&gt; Myself, I'd go for the Limited even with its higher mileage. I like the
Ltd
&gt; amenities and the full-time 4WD.
&gt;
&gt; One of my drives is a 96 JGC Ltd with 175K+ on it and it still looks and
&gt; runs absolutely great (except for the FM radio).
&gt;
&gt; On the other hand, the lower mileage Laredo is hardly broken in and
perhaps
&gt; underutilized so things &quot;might&quot; break sooner than later.
&gt;
&gt; Good luck.
&gt;
&gt; Bob

Report this message

#6: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:47:37 by D

I should have mentioned it, but both do have the Carfax report. I don't
wholly rely on Carfax entirely because of backyard fixes and the like, but
it is a good starting point for Louisiana cars. Unless somebody happened to
be down there on vacation. Nothing is certain in life is it? Heh.
Thanks Bill. I was waiting for you input especially. Doug are you around on
this too?
D

&quot;L.W.(Bill) Hughes III&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billhughes&#64;cox.net" target="_blank">billhughes&#64;cox.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:44C01FDA.4C615F09&#64;cox.net..." target="_blank">44C01FDA.4C615F09&#64;cox.net...</a>
&gt; I think: <a href="http://www.carfax.com/" target="_blank">http://www.carfax.com/</a> is worth the money, specially after
&gt; all the flooding.
&gt; God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
&gt; mailto:<a href="mailto:LWHughes3rd&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">LWHughes3rd&#64;aol.com</a> <a href="http://www.billhughes.com/" target="_blank">http://www.billhughes.com/</a>
&gt;
&gt; D wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
vehicles
&gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
clean
&gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
&gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
&gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
airbags,
&gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
down
&gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
&gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
make
&gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
&gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited
trim
&gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
behind
&gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt; &gt; D

Report this message

#7: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:59:39 by D

Thanks Billy Ray. I agree. Most of the problems with my 93 ZJ inline 6 have
been the accessories. Does that blend door cause the whole system to fail?
I'm sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph here. I assume the nv249
xfer case is the Quadra-Drive? What is the 'severe service' maintenance you
mention? There was no binding, stiffness or noise from the underside during
a 5 mile test drive. I did try to make several sharp, lock to lock turns
during it for that reason. I was surprised a full time 4WD could be so
smooth.
Do I understand you to say that the Select-Trac is more durable in your
opinion than the Quadra? Is this because it is only an occassional part-time
use of the system? I would think that gas mileage might be better with the
Selec-Trac since you're not driving the front wheels all the time too.
I have done the resistor checkout in my 93. I agree, simple and easy fix. I
am a recovering shade-tree guy anyway.
I don't care really too much about the hooks or the CD changer really. I
just put that in cause it came to mind, but thanks.
The tire reference is very telling. I do appreciate that type of
information.
Thanks for your input. Any other thoughts?

&quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands are
the
&gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt;
&gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in the
&gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor to
&gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace $12
&gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt;
&gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
vehicle
&gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when accelerating
&gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching. When
it
&gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The real
&gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer case.
&gt;
&gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
ATC.
&gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
speeds.
&gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt;
&gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department in
&gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy, you
&gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer can
also
&gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in
your
&gt; factory radio.
&gt;
&gt; Other differences.
&gt;
&gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in highway
&gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their specific
&gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
vehicles
&gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
clean
&gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
&gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
&gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt; &gt; airbags,
&gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
down
&gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
&gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
&gt; &gt; make
&gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
&gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited
&gt; &gt; trim
&gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt; &gt; behind
&gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt; &gt; D
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#8: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 04:40:49 by Earle Horton

Selec-Trac is a 100% mechanical or geared system. That is to say, it
doesn't have any friction materials, viscous couplers, or electronic gizmos
to fail. Just gears, and three differentials that divide the torque between
the front and rear wheels. You can also put the lever in 2H and it is a
true two wheel drive system. That would be good for your gas mileage
concerns, but the Quadra-Drive system was supposedly designed for improved
bad weather on-road manners. I don't know how much better it could be than
Selec-Trac. If you really wanted to, I think you could put locking front
hubs on a Selec-Trac vehicle too. You have to decide for yourself which
concern is more important for you, and add in Billy Ray's potentially
expensive repair argument.

Good luck!

Earle

&quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:fyWvg.1801$D%<a href="mailto:4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; Thanks Billy Ray. I agree. Most of the problems with my 93 ZJ inline 6
have
&gt; been the accessories. Does that blend door cause the whole system to fail?
&gt; I'm sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph here. I assume the
nv249
&gt; xfer case is the Quadra-Drive? What is the 'severe service' maintenance
you
&gt; mention? There was no binding, stiffness or noise from the underside
during
&gt; a 5 mile test drive. I did try to make several sharp, lock to lock turns
&gt; during it for that reason. I was surprised a full time 4WD could be so
&gt; smooth.
&gt; Do I understand you to say that the Select-Trac is more durable in your
&gt; opinion than the Quadra? Is this because it is only an occassional
part-time
&gt; use of the system? I would think that gas mileage might be better with the
&gt; Selec-Trac since you're not driving the front wheels all the time too.
&gt; I have done the resistor checkout in my 93. I agree, simple and easy fix.
I
&gt; am a recovering shade-tree guy anyway.
&gt; I don't care really too much about the hooks or the CD changer really. I
&gt; just put that in cause it came to mind, but thanks.
&gt; The tire reference is very telling. I do appreciate that type of
&gt; information.
&gt; Thanks for your input. Any other thoughts?
&gt;
&gt; &quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt; &gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands are
&gt; the
&gt; &gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt; &gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in
the
&gt; &gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor
to
&gt; &gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace
$12
&gt; &gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
&gt; vehicle
&gt; &gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt; &gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when
accelerating
&gt; &gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching.
When
&gt; it
&gt; &gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The
real
&gt; &gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer case.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
&gt; ATC.
&gt; &gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
&gt; speeds.
&gt; &gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt; &gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department
in
&gt; &gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy,
you
&gt; &gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer can
&gt; also
&gt; &gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in
&gt; your
&gt; &gt; factory radio.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Other differences.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in
highway
&gt; &gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their specific
&gt; &gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt; &gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
&gt; vehicles
&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
&gt; clean
&gt; &gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive
system.
&gt; &gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on
front,
&gt; &gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt; &gt; &gt; airbags,
&gt; &gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
&gt; down
&gt; &gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also
very
&gt; &gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
&gt; &gt; &gt; make
&gt; &gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt; &gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt; &gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest
price,
&gt; &gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; &gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the
Limited
&gt; &gt; &gt; trim
&gt; &gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt; &gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt; &gt; &gt; behind
&gt; &gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt; &gt; &gt; D
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#9: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 04:43:59 by D

Thanks Earle.
Very good thoughts about the Selec-Trac. I only wish I could get him down a
couple hundred more $'s and I think it would be a deal.
D
&quot;Earle Horton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:earle-NOSPAM-horton&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">earle-NOSPAM-horton&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:44c03bce$0$23737$<a href="mailto:a82e2bb9&#64;reader.athenanews.com..." target="_blank">a82e2bb9&#64;reader.athenanews.com...</a>
&gt; Selec-Trac is a 100% mechanical or geared system. That is to say, it
&gt; doesn't have any friction materials, viscous couplers, or electronic
gizmos
&gt; to fail. Just gears, and three differentials that divide the torque
between
&gt; the front and rear wheels. You can also put the lever in 2H and it is a
&gt; true two wheel drive system. That would be good for your gas mileage
&gt; concerns, but the Quadra-Drive system was supposedly designed for improved
&gt; bad weather on-road manners. I don't know how much better it could be
than
&gt; Selec-Trac. If you really wanted to, I think you could put locking front
&gt; hubs on a Selec-Trac vehicle too. You have to decide for yourself which
&gt; concern is more important for you, and add in Billy Ray's potentially
&gt; expensive repair argument.
&gt;
&gt; Good luck!
&gt;
&gt; Earle
&gt;
&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:fyWvg.1801$D%<a href="mailto:4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; Thanks Billy Ray. I agree. Most of the problems with my 93 ZJ inline 6
&gt; have
&gt; &gt; been the accessories. Does that blend door cause the whole system to
fail?
&gt; &gt; I'm sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph here. I assume the
&gt; nv249
&gt; &gt; xfer case is the Quadra-Drive? What is the 'severe service' maintenance
&gt; you
&gt; &gt; mention? There was no binding, stiffness or noise from the underside
&gt; during
&gt; &gt; a 5 mile test drive. I did try to make several sharp, lock to lock turns
&gt; &gt; during it for that reason. I was surprised a full time 4WD could be so
&gt; &gt; smooth.
&gt; &gt; Do I understand you to say that the Select-Trac is more durable in your
&gt; &gt; opinion than the Quadra? Is this because it is only an occassional
&gt; part-time
&gt; &gt; use of the system? I would think that gas mileage might be better with
the
&gt; &gt; Selec-Trac since you're not driving the front wheels all the time too.
&gt; &gt; I have done the resistor checkout in my 93. I agree, simple and easy
fix.
&gt; I
&gt; &gt; am a recovering shade-tree guy anyway.
&gt; &gt; I don't care really too much about the hooks or the CD changer really. I
&gt; &gt; just put that in cause it came to mind, but thanks.
&gt; &gt; The tire reference is very telling. I do appreciate that type of
&gt; &gt; information.
&gt; &gt; Thanks for your input. Any other thoughts?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands
are
&gt; &gt; the
&gt; &gt; &gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt; &gt; &gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in
&gt; the
&gt; &gt; &gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor
&gt; to
&gt; &gt; &gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace
&gt; $12
&gt; &gt; &gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
&gt; &gt; vehicle
&gt; &gt; &gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt; &gt; &gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when
&gt; accelerating
&gt; &gt; &gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching.
&gt; When
&gt; &gt; it
&gt; &gt; &gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The
&gt; real
&gt; &gt; &gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer
case.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
&gt; &gt; ATC.
&gt; &gt; &gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
&gt; &gt; speeds.
&gt; &gt; &gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt; &gt; &gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts
department
&gt; in
&gt; &gt; &gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy,
&gt; you
&gt; &gt; &gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer
can
&gt; &gt; also
&gt; &gt; &gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in
&gt; &gt; your
&gt; &gt; &gt; factory radio.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Other differences.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in
&gt; highway
&gt; &gt; &gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their
specific
&gt; &gt; &gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; &gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
&gt; &gt; vehicles
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
&gt; &gt; clean
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive
&gt; system.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on
&gt; front,
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; airbags,
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
&gt; &gt; down
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also
&gt; very
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other
options
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; make
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow
hooks
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver
and
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest
&gt; price,
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the
&gt; Limited
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; trim
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; behind
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; D
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#10: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 05:29:33 by Billy Ray

There is blend door write up on WJ Jeeps at:
<a href="http://www.wjjeeps.com/hvac_sub_assembly.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wjjeeps.com/hvac_sub_assembly.htm</a>

In 'severe service' you replace most of the underbody lubricants on a yearly
basis, on the other schedule they are 'lifetime' fluids.

I would also take the vehicle to a dead end street or parking lot at night
(when it is quieter) and listen for noises/bindings while at slow speed
going from full lock to lock

I was somewhat surprised at the lack of tire options myself. This is
compounded by a lack of information about what other 17 inch sizes will
actually fit without interference or lifting.

I suspect that mileage would be somewhat better with the Selec-Trac but I've
never heard that it was very much.


&quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:fyWvg.1801$D%<a href="mailto:4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; Thanks Billy Ray. I agree. Most of the problems with my 93 ZJ inline 6
&gt; have
&gt; been the accessories. Does that blend door cause the whole system to fail?
&gt; I'm sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph here. I assume the
&gt; nv249
&gt; xfer case is the Quadra-Drive? What is the 'severe service' maintenance
&gt; you
&gt; mention? There was no binding, stiffness or noise from the underside
&gt; during
&gt; a 5 mile test drive. I did try to make several sharp, lock to lock turns
&gt; during it for that reason. I was surprised a full time 4WD could be so
&gt; smooth.
&gt; Do I understand you to say that the Select-Trac is more durable in your
&gt; opinion than the Quadra? Is this because it is only an occassional
&gt; part-time
&gt; use of the system? I would think that gas mileage might be better with the
&gt; Selec-Trac since you're not driving the front wheels all the time too.
&gt; I have done the resistor checkout in my 93. I agree, simple and easy fix.
&gt; I
&gt; am a recovering shade-tree guy anyway.
&gt; I don't care really too much about the hooks or the CD changer really. I
&gt; just put that in cause it came to mind, but thanks.
&gt; The tire reference is very telling. I do appreciate that type of
&gt; information.
&gt; Thanks for your input. Any other thoughts?
&gt;
&gt; &quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt;&gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands are
&gt; the
&gt;&gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt;&gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in
&gt;&gt; the
&gt;&gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor to
&gt;&gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace
&gt;&gt; $12
&gt;&gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
&gt; vehicle
&gt;&gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt;&gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when accelerating
&gt;&gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching. When
&gt; it
&gt;&gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The
&gt;&gt; real
&gt;&gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer case.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
&gt; ATC.
&gt;&gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
&gt; speeds.
&gt;&gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt;&gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department
&gt;&gt; in
&gt;&gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy,
&gt;&gt; you
&gt;&gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer can
&gt; also
&gt;&gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in
&gt; your
&gt;&gt; factory radio.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Other differences.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in
&gt;&gt; highway
&gt;&gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their specific
&gt;&gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt;&gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
&gt; vehicles
&gt;&gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
&gt; clean
&gt;&gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
&gt;&gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on
&gt;&gt; &gt; front,
&gt;&gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt;&gt; &gt; airbags,
&gt;&gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
&gt; down
&gt;&gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
&gt;&gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
&gt;&gt; &gt; make
&gt;&gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt;&gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt;&gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
&gt;&gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt;&gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited
&gt;&gt; &gt; trim
&gt;&gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt;&gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt;&gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt;&gt; &gt; behind
&gt;&gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt;&gt; &gt; D
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#11: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 05:52:19 by D

Billy Ray,
What a great site ! ! ! THanks so much! That will really help.
So, taking the dash out is a job huh? That's an understatement. Heh.
Thanks for the explanation of 'severe service'.
I do appreciate all the help. It clears a lot up for me.
D

&quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:94006$44c04b27$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:7039&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">7039&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt; There is blend door write up on WJ Jeeps at:
&gt; <a href="http://www.wjjeeps.com/hvac_sub_assembly.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wjjeeps.com/hvac_sub_assembly.htm</a>
&gt;
&gt; In 'severe service' you replace most of the underbody lubricants on a
yearly
&gt; basis, on the other schedule they are 'lifetime' fluids.
&gt;
&gt; I would also take the vehicle to a dead end street or parking lot at night
&gt; (when it is quieter) and listen for noises/bindings while at slow speed
&gt; going from full lock to lock
&gt;
&gt; I was somewhat surprised at the lack of tire options myself. This is
&gt; compounded by a lack of information about what other 17 inch sizes will
&gt; actually fit without interference or lifting.
&gt;
&gt; I suspect that mileage would be somewhat better with the Selec-Trac but
I've
&gt; never heard that it was very much.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:fyWvg.1801$D%<a href="mailto:4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; Thanks Billy Ray. I agree. Most of the problems with my 93 ZJ inline 6
&gt; &gt; have
&gt; &gt; been the accessories. Does that blend door cause the whole system to
fail?
&gt; &gt; I'm sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph here. I assume the
&gt; &gt; nv249
&gt; &gt; xfer case is the Quadra-Drive? What is the 'severe service' maintenance
&gt; &gt; you
&gt; &gt; mention? There was no binding, stiffness or noise from the underside
&gt; &gt; during
&gt; &gt; a 5 mile test drive. I did try to make several sharp, lock to lock turns
&gt; &gt; during it for that reason. I was surprised a full time 4WD could be so
&gt; &gt; smooth.
&gt; &gt; Do I understand you to say that the Select-Trac is more durable in your
&gt; &gt; opinion than the Quadra? Is this because it is only an occassional
&gt; &gt; part-time
&gt; &gt; use of the system? I would think that gas mileage might be better with
the
&gt; &gt; Selec-Trac since you're not driving the front wheels all the time too.
&gt; &gt; I have done the resistor checkout in my 93. I agree, simple and easy
fix.
&gt; &gt; I
&gt; &gt; am a recovering shade-tree guy anyway.
&gt; &gt; I don't care really too much about the hooks or the CD changer really. I
&gt; &gt; just put that in cause it came to mind, but thanks.
&gt; &gt; The tire reference is very telling. I do appreciate that type of
&gt; &gt; information.
&gt; &gt; Thanks for your input. Any other thoughts?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands
are
&gt; &gt; the
&gt; &gt;&gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt; &gt;&gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in
&gt; &gt;&gt; the
&gt; &gt;&gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor
to
&gt; &gt;&gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace
&gt; &gt;&gt; $12
&gt; &gt;&gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
&gt; &gt; vehicle
&gt; &gt;&gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt; &gt;&gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when
accelerating
&gt; &gt;&gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching.
When
&gt; &gt; it
&gt; &gt;&gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The
&gt; &gt;&gt; real
&gt; &gt;&gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer
case.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
&gt; &gt; ATC.
&gt; &gt;&gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
&gt; &gt; speeds.
&gt; &gt;&gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt; &gt;&gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department
&gt; &gt;&gt; in
&gt; &gt;&gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy,
&gt; &gt;&gt; you
&gt; &gt;&gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer can
&gt; &gt; also
&gt; &gt;&gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in
&gt; &gt; your
&gt; &gt;&gt; factory radio.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Other differences.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in
&gt; &gt;&gt; highway
&gt; &gt;&gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their
specific
&gt; &gt;&gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
&gt; &gt; vehicles
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
&gt; &gt; clean
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive
system.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; front,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; airbags,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
&gt; &gt; down
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also
very
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other
options
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; make
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver
and
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest
price,
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the
Limited
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; trim
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; behind
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; D
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#12: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 07:58:59 by Billy Ray

If we can get Bill to post you a link to the WJ maintenance and Lubrication
Schedule you can get details on the differences.

I read a story some time ago that according to GM over 90 percent of drivers
should be following 'severe service' rather than the maintenance schedule
the manufacturers advertise.


I assume it is similar or higher for Jeeps.



&quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:TbYvg.6947$<a href="mailto:PN4.394&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">PN4.394&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; Billy Ray,
&gt; What a great site ! ! ! THanks so much! That will really help.
&gt; So, taking the dash out is a job huh? That's an understatement. Heh.
&gt; Thanks for the explanation of 'severe service'.
&gt; I do appreciate all the help. It clears a lot up for me.
&gt; D
&gt;
&gt; &quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:94006$44c04b27$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:7039&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">7039&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt;&gt; There is blend door write up on WJ Jeeps at:
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.wjjeeps.com/hvac_sub_assembly.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wjjeeps.com/hvac_sub_assembly.htm</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; In 'severe service' you replace most of the underbody lubricants on a
&gt; yearly
&gt;&gt; basis, on the other schedule they are 'lifetime' fluids.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I would also take the vehicle to a dead end street or parking lot at
&gt;&gt; night
&gt;&gt; (when it is quieter) and listen for noises/bindings while at slow speed
&gt;&gt; going from full lock to lock
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I was somewhat surprised at the lack of tire options myself. This is
&gt;&gt; compounded by a lack of information about what other 17 inch sizes will
&gt;&gt; actually fit without interference or lifting.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I suspect that mileage would be somewhat better with the Selec-Trac but
&gt; I've
&gt;&gt; never heard that it was very much.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:fyWvg.1801$D%<a href="mailto:4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks Billy Ray. I agree. Most of the problems with my 93 ZJ inline 6
&gt;&gt; &gt; have
&gt;&gt; &gt; been the accessories. Does that blend door cause the whole system to
&gt; fail?
&gt;&gt; &gt; I'm sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph here. I assume the
&gt;&gt; &gt; nv249
&gt;&gt; &gt; xfer case is the Quadra-Drive? What is the 'severe service' maintenance
&gt;&gt; &gt; you
&gt;&gt; &gt; mention? There was no binding, stiffness or noise from the underside
&gt;&gt; &gt; during
&gt;&gt; &gt; a 5 mile test drive. I did try to make several sharp, lock to lock
&gt;&gt; &gt; turns
&gt;&gt; &gt; during it for that reason. I was surprised a full time 4WD could be so
&gt;&gt; &gt; smooth.
&gt;&gt; &gt; Do I understand you to say that the Select-Trac is more durable in your
&gt;&gt; &gt; opinion than the Quadra? Is this because it is only an occassional
&gt;&gt; &gt; part-time
&gt;&gt; &gt; use of the system? I would think that gas mileage might be better with
&gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt; Selec-Trac since you're not driving the front wheels all the time too.
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have done the resistor checkout in my 93. I agree, simple and easy
&gt; fix.
&gt;&gt; &gt; I
&gt;&gt; &gt; am a recovering shade-tree guy anyway.
&gt;&gt; &gt; I don't care really too much about the hooks or the CD changer really.
&gt;&gt; &gt; I
&gt;&gt; &gt; just put that in cause it came to mind, but thanks.
&gt;&gt; &gt; The tire reference is very telling. I do appreciate that type of
&gt;&gt; &gt; information.
&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks for your input. Any other thoughts?
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt; news:a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands
&gt; are
&gt;&gt; &gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor
&gt; to
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; $12
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
&gt;&gt; &gt; vehicle
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when
&gt; accelerating
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching.
&gt; When
&gt;&gt; &gt; it
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; real
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer
&gt; case.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
&gt;&gt; &gt; ATC.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
&gt;&gt; &gt; speeds.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; department
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; in
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; you
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; can
&gt;&gt; &gt; also
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in
&gt;&gt; &gt; your
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; factory radio.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Other differences.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; highway
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their
&gt; specific
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
&gt;&gt; &gt; vehicles
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
&gt;&gt; &gt; clean
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive
&gt; system.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; front,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; airbags,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
&gt;&gt; &gt; down
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also
&gt; very
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other
&gt; options
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; make
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; hooks
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver
&gt; and
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest
&gt; price,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the
&gt; Limited
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; trim
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; behind
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; D
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#13: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 13:54:11 by Al J

I've been looking at WJ's as well and another somewhat common problem
area I encountered is pulling to the right. An '04 I test drove would
lane-change in a millisecond at 70 mph if I let go of the wheel. Even in
the left hand lane crowned the opposite way it wanted to go right. A
search of this newsgroup and the WJ site turned up something about
variations in a weld location causing a bad caster angle on some WJ's.
I'm not sure if there's a fix for this, but I passed on that one.

Regarding gas mileage, at least with the I6 trailer tow gets you a lower
axle ratio which will probably hurts mileage more than the transfer
case. Do V8's with Selectrac have the aluminum Dana 44?

I did run across what I call a 'Katrina' '04 WJ this past weekend. The
bottom edge of the trans cooler was solid rust and the paint was gone
off the bottom 2 inches of the AC condenser up front. There was rust on
the front pumpkin which was leaking and a freshly painted rear axle with
new sealer on the cover. It also had brand new rotors all around. It
must have been sitting in something pretty toxic to eat the paint off
the condenser. I passed on that as well, but it confirmed that a good
look underneath is worthwhile.

In article &lt;a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET" target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a> says...
&gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands are the
&gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt;
&gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in the
&gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor to
&gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace $12
&gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt;
&gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a vehicle
&gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when accelerating
&gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching. When it
&gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The real
&gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer case.
&gt;
&gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the ATC.
&gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan speeds.
&gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt;
&gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department in
&gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy, you
&gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer can also
&gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in your
&gt; factory radio.
&gt;
&gt; Other differences.
&gt;
&gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in highway
&gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their specific
&gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two vehicles
&gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very clean
&gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
&gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
&gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt; &gt; airbags,
&gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come down
&gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
&gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
&gt; &gt; make
&gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
&gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited
&gt; &gt; trim
&gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt; &gt; behind
&gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt; &gt; D
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#14: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 16:27:01 by EDdaTREE

I would go with the 4.0 sixer and selec-trac in an option heavy Laredo.
The 4.7 has a powerband that's not far above the six...add a K&amp;N filter
and free-flowing muffler to the 4.0 and you will catch yourself trolling
for hotrods on the wet streets while in the NP242 fulltime mode. ALL the
GC auto trannies have &quot;issues&quot;......do a search. My bud bought his WJ
w/4.7V8-Quadra-crap....lousy MPG. I run my '01 4.0 -selec-trac 650 miles
a week, good mpg and pass everything on the road in rain/snow/late for
work mode. I'm on my third 4.0 powered Jeep and have found these motors
virtually bullet-proof.

Report this message

#15: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 18:14:47 by D

I really enjoy this group. You guys are giving me such good information!
I'm not sure if the V8 w/ Selec-Trac have the Dana 44. Maybe someone else
will chime in.
I never fail to look underneath. There's always a story there.
Thanks for your input Al.
D

&quot;Al J&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ajsmail&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">ajsmail&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:MPG.1f2a7c61332554ec9898ae&#64;news.xnet.com..." target="_blank">MPG.1f2a7c61332554ec9898ae&#64;news.xnet.com...</a>
&gt; I've been looking at WJ's as well and another somewhat common problem
&gt; area I encountered is pulling to the right. An '04 I test drove would
&gt; lane-change in a millisecond at 70 mph if I let go of the wheel. Even in
&gt; the left hand lane crowned the opposite way it wanted to go right. A
&gt; search of this newsgroup and the WJ site turned up something about
&gt; variations in a weld location causing a bad caster angle on some WJ's.
&gt; I'm not sure if there's a fix for this, but I passed on that one.
&gt;
&gt; Regarding gas mileage, at least with the I6 trailer tow gets you a lower
&gt; axle ratio which will probably hurts mileage more than the transfer
&gt; case. Do V8's with Selectrac have the aluminum Dana 44?
&gt;
&gt; I did run across what I call a 'Katrina' '04 WJ this past weekend. The
&gt; bottom edge of the trans cooler was solid rust and the paint was gone
&gt; off the bottom 2 inches of the AC condenser up front. There was rust on
&gt; the front pumpkin which was leaking and a freshly painted rear axle with
&gt; new sealer on the cover. It also had brand new rotors all around. It
&gt; must have been sitting in something pretty toxic to eat the paint off
&gt; the condenser. I passed on that as well, but it confirmed that a good
&gt; look underneath is worthwhile.
&gt;
&gt; In article &lt;a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET" target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET</a>&gt;,
&gt; <a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a> says...
&gt; &gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands are
the
&gt; &gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt; &gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in
the
&gt; &gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor
to
&gt; &gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace
$12
&gt; &gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
vehicle
&gt; &gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt; &gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when
accelerating
&gt; &gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching.
When it
&gt; &gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The
real
&gt; &gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer case.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
ATC.
&gt; &gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
speeds.
&gt; &gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt; &gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department
in
&gt; &gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy,
you
&gt; &gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer can
also
&gt; &gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in
your
&gt; &gt; factory radio.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Other differences.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in
highway
&gt; &gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their specific
&gt; &gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt; &gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
vehicles
&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
clean
&gt; &gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive
system.
&gt; &gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on
front,
&gt; &gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt; &gt; &gt; airbags,
&gt; &gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
down
&gt; &gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also
very
&gt; &gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
&gt; &gt; &gt; make
&gt; &gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt; &gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt; &gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest
price,
&gt; &gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt; &gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the
Limited
&gt; &gt; &gt; trim
&gt; &gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt; &gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt; &gt; &gt; behind
&gt; &gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt; &gt; &gt; D
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;

Report this message

#16: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 18:19:29 by D

Thanks Edward.
I think the 4.0 is actually bullet-proof. Mine's over 276K. Only big
problems' been in the accessories. That tells me a lot about the bling bling
on the Limited's too.
What is a K&amp;N filter? Seems like I should know, but didn't sleep well last
night.
THanks again.
D

&quot;EDWARD BELLUS&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:EDdaTREE&#64;webtv.net" target="_blank">EDdaTREE&#64;webtv.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:25484-44C0E435-261&#64;storefull-3313.bay.webtv.net..." target="_blank">25484-44C0E435-261&#64;storefull-3313.bay.webtv.net...</a>
&gt; I would go with the 4.0 sixer and selec-trac in an option heavy Laredo.
&gt; The 4.7 has a powerband that's not far above the six...add a K&amp;N filter
&gt; and free-flowing muffler to the 4.0 and you will catch yourself trolling
&gt; for hotrods on the wet streets while in the NP242 fulltime mode. ALL the
&gt; GC auto trannies have &quot;issues&quot;......do a search. My bud bought his WJ
&gt; w/4.7V8-Quadra-crap....lousy MPG. I run my '01 4.0 -selec-trac 650 miles
&gt; a week, good mpg and pass everything on the road in rain/snow/late for
&gt; work mode. I'm on my third 4.0 powered Jeep and have found these motors
&gt; virtually bullet-proof.
&gt;

Report this message

#17: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 20:40:31 by Robert Holdaway

billy ray wrote:
&gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands are the
&gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt;
&gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in the
&gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor to
&gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace $12
&gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt;
&gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a vehicle
&gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when accelerating
&gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching. When it
&gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The real
&gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer case.
&gt;
Re: Transfer cases

The NV249 (viscous coupling) was in the V8 ZJs. The WJs have the NV247
(gerotor coupling). I was not aware that it's as failure-prone as the 249.

<a href="http://www.wjjeeps.com/tcases.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wjjeeps.com/tcases.htm</a>

Bob - 1999 WJ Limited V8/QD, Tow Hooks/Skid plates, 245/70R16 BFG AT/KO
- 109k.


&gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the ATC.
&gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan speeds.
&gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt;
&gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department in
&gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy, you
&gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer can also
&gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in your
&gt; factory radio.
&gt;
&gt; Other differences.
&gt;
&gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in highway
&gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their specific
&gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Hi All,
&gt;&gt;I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two vehicles
&gt;&gt;I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very clean
&gt;&gt;and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
&gt;&gt;Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
&gt;&gt;dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt;&gt;airbags,
&gt;&gt;90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come down
&gt;&gt;some from that.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
&gt;&gt;clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
&gt;&gt;make
&gt;&gt;it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt;&gt;though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt;&gt;passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
&gt;&gt;$15,200
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt;&gt;V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited
&gt;&gt;trim
&gt;&gt;on a Laredo.
&gt;&gt;Any candid thoughts?
&gt;&gt;I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt;&gt;behind
&gt;&gt;that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt;&gt;Thanks.
&gt;&gt;D
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#18: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 21:01:55 by EDdaTREE

The K&amp;N on my '01 cost 27 bucks at Advance Auto parts... clean &amp; re-oil
every 30 to 50K miles w/million mile warranty. Better mpg and
performance. Look on Ebay for the Quadradrive viscous couplings....I
guess they go bad often. In Ohio those WJ prices would get the seller
laughed at, or beaten. I saw a Technical Service Bulletin on the
alignment remedy(pulls right) thing. If you buy 4.7 V8 , they also made
H.O.(high output) in certain years. Do a web search on Grand Cherokee
groups.... NorthAmericanGrandCherokeeAssociation(NAGCA) or
MallCrawlin'.com are two of MANY. After you get a 4.0 broke in (100K)
there are &quot;stroker&quot; kits and other hop-up tricks galore.


<a href="http://community.webtv.net/EDdaTREE/MUDTHUGS4X4CLUB" target="_blank">http://community.webtv.net/EDdaTREE/MUDTHUGS4X4CLUB</a>

Report this message

#19: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 21:36:39 by Billy Ray

The Dana44 in question is the 44a (aluminum), not the regular 44 which is
iron. The two share little in common.

There are strength issues for both available axles (d44a &amp; d35c) and it may
well be a toss-up as to which one is preferable or superior.

I believe that both WJs in question had the factory tow package which comes
standard with the d44a and 3.73 gearing.

The 4 liter engine gets a lot of criticism on some boards in regards to
performance. It is true that it won't win many drag races but is perfectly
adequate for normal operation and towing. When towing in the mountains it
is necessary to lock out overdrive.

On the other hand it had a proven durability of several hundred thousand
miles before a major rebuild is required.

Please note that in my previous post I mentioned the NV249 transfer case.
While it also has its problems I should have said nv247 AWD case.

In any case be sure to get a 'build sheet' from the dealership (or via
e-mail). They offer a wealth of information at no charge.


&quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:X37wg.1853$D%<a href="mailto:4.1630&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.1630&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;I really enjoy this group. You guys are giving me such good information!
&gt; I'm not sure if the V8 w/ Selec-Trac have the Dana 44. Maybe someone else
&gt; will chime in.
&gt; I never fail to look underneath. There's always a story there.
&gt; Thanks for your input Al.
&gt; D
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Al J&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ajsmail&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">ajsmail&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:MPG.1f2a7c61332554ec9898ae&#64;news.xnet.com..." target="_blank">MPG.1f2a7c61332554ec9898ae&#64;news.xnet.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; I've been looking at WJ's as well and another somewhat common problem
&gt;&gt; area I encountered is pulling to the right. An '04 I test drove would
&gt;&gt; lane-change in a millisecond at 70 mph if I let go of the wheel. Even in
&gt;&gt; the left hand lane crowned the opposite way it wanted to go right. A
&gt;&gt; search of this newsgroup and the WJ site turned up something about
&gt;&gt; variations in a weld location causing a bad caster angle on some WJ's.
&gt;&gt; I'm not sure if there's a fix for this, but I passed on that one.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Regarding gas mileage, at least with the I6 trailer tow gets you a lower
&gt;&gt; axle ratio which will probably hurts mileage more than the transfer
&gt;&gt; case. Do V8's with Selectrac have the aluminum Dana 44?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I did run across what I call a 'Katrina' '04 WJ this past weekend. The
&gt;&gt; bottom edge of the trans cooler was solid rust and the paint was gone
&gt;&gt; off the bottom 2 inches of the AC condenser up front. There was rust on
&gt;&gt; the front pumpkin which was leaking and a freshly painted rear axle with
&gt;&gt; new sealer on the cover. It also had brand new rotors all around. It
&gt;&gt; must have been sitting in something pretty toxic to eat the paint off
&gt;&gt; the condenser. I passed on that as well, but it confirmed that a good
&gt;&gt; look underneath is worthwhile.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; In article &lt;a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET" target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET</a>&gt;,
&gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a> says...
&gt;&gt; &gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands
&gt;&gt; &gt; are
&gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt; most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt;&gt; &gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in
&gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt; vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor
&gt; to
&gt;&gt; &gt; get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace
&gt; $12
&gt;&gt; &gt; in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
&gt; vehicle
&gt;&gt; &gt; that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt;&gt; &gt; attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when
&gt; accelerating
&gt;&gt; &gt; and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching.
&gt; When it
&gt;&gt; &gt; fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The
&gt; real
&gt;&gt; &gt; 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer
&gt;&gt; &gt; case.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
&gt; ATC.
&gt;&gt; &gt; There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
&gt; speeds.
&gt;&gt; &gt; It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt;&gt; &gt; driveway in a few minutes
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department
&gt; in
&gt;&gt; &gt; chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy,
&gt; you
&gt;&gt; &gt; can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer can
&gt; also
&gt;&gt; &gt; be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in
&gt; your
&gt;&gt; &gt; factory radio.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Other differences.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in
&gt; highway
&gt;&gt; &gt; and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their
&gt;&gt; &gt; specific
&gt;&gt; &gt; size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi All,
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
&gt; vehicles
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
&gt; clean
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive
&gt; system.
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on
&gt; front,
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; airbags,
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; 90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
&gt; down
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; some from that.
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also
&gt; very
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; options
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; make
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; and
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest
&gt; price,
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; $15,200
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the
&gt; Limited
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; trim
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; on a Laredo.
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Any candid thoughts?
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; behind
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks.
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; D
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#20: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-21 21:43:39 by Billy Ray

Quite right on the 249/247. I hadn't yet seen your note when I posted a
correction in an earlier post.

&quot;Robert Holdaway&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:robert-holdaway&#64;uiowa.edu" target="_blank">robert-holdaway&#64;uiowa.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:J2rnvo.2FJ&#64;sysadm.physics.uiowa.edu..." target="_blank">J2rnvo.2FJ&#64;sysadm.physics.uiowa.edu...</a>
&gt; billy ray wrote:
&gt;&gt; The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands are
&gt;&gt; the most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt;&gt; tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in
&gt;&gt; the vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of
&gt;&gt; labor to get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to
&gt;&gt; replace $12 in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
&gt;&gt; vehicle that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay
&gt;&gt; special attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when
&gt;&gt; accelerating and especially turning which would indicate failure is
&gt;&gt; approaching. When it fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the
&gt;&gt; failure occurs. The real 'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242
&gt;&gt; Selec-Trac transfer case.
&gt;&gt;
&gt; Re: Transfer cases
&gt;
&gt; The NV249 (viscous coupling) was in the V8 ZJs. The WJs have the NV247
&gt; (gerotor coupling). I was not aware that it's as failure-prone as the
&gt; 249.
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://www.wjjeeps.com/tcases.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wjjeeps.com/tcases.htm</a>
&gt;
&gt; Bob - 1999 WJ Limited V8/QD, Tow Hooks/Skid plates, 245/70R16 BFG AT/KO -
&gt; 109k.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
&gt;&gt; ATC. There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
&gt;&gt; speeds. It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in
&gt;&gt; your driveway in a few minutes
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts department
&gt;&gt; in chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy,
&gt;&gt; you can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer
&gt;&gt; can also be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely,
&gt;&gt; already in your factory radio.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Other differences.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in
&gt;&gt; highway and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their
&gt;&gt; specific size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Hi All,
&gt;&gt;&gt;I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two vehicles
&gt;&gt;&gt;I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very clean
&gt;&gt;&gt;and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive system.
&gt;&gt;&gt;Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on front,
&gt;&gt;&gt;dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt;&gt;&gt;airbags,
&gt;&gt;&gt;90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come down
&gt;&gt;&gt;some from that.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also very
&gt;&gt;&gt;clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other options
&gt;&gt;&gt;make
&gt;&gt;&gt;it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow hooks
&gt;&gt;&gt;though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver and
&gt;&gt;&gt;passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest price,
&gt;&gt;&gt;$15,200
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt;&gt;&gt;V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the Limited
&gt;&gt;&gt;trim
&gt;&gt;&gt;on a Laredo.
&gt;&gt;&gt;Any candid thoughts?
&gt;&gt;&gt;I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt;&gt;&gt;behind
&gt;&gt;&gt;that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt;&gt;&gt;Thanks.
&gt;&gt;&gt;D
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;

Report this message

#21: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-22 01:33:38 by billhughes

The Maintainance chart is now in the owner's Manual:
<a href="http://www.billhughes.com/WJLubeSchedule.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.billhughes.com/WJLubeSchedule.jpg</a>
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:<a href="mailto:LWHughes3rd&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">LWHughes3rd&#64;aol.com</a>

billy ray wrote:
&gt;
&gt; If we can get Bill to post you a link to the WJ maintenance and Lubrication
&gt; Schedule you can get details on the differences.
&gt;
&gt; I read a story some time ago that according to GM over 90 percent of drivers
&gt; should be following 'severe service' rather than the maintenance schedule
&gt; the manufacturers advertise.
&gt;
&gt; I assume it is similar or higher for Jeeps.

Report this message

#22: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-22 01:42:02 by billhughes

Next time you &quot;clean &amp; re-oil&quot; take a finger and wipe the inside of
the tube and see how much dust and dirt gets by, where none is found on
a stock filter. K&amp;N is great for racing where we change the engine at
the other end.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:<a href="mailto:LWHughes3rd&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">LWHughes3rd&#64;aol.com</a> <a href="http://www.billhughes.com/" target="_blank">http://www.billhughes.com/</a>

EDWARD BELLUS wrote:
&gt;
&gt; The K&amp;N on my '01 cost 27 bucks at Advance Auto parts... clean &amp; re-oil
&gt; every 30 to 50K miles w/million mile warranty. Better mpg and
&gt; performance. Look on Ebay for the Quadradrive viscous couplings....I
&gt; guess they go bad often. In Ohio those WJ prices would get the seller
&gt; laughed at, or beaten. I saw a Technical Service Bulletin on the
&gt; alignment remedy(pulls right) thing. If you buy 4.7 V8 , they also made
&gt; H.O.(high output) in certain years. Do a web search on Grand Cherokee
&gt; groups.... NorthAmericanGrandCherokeeAssociation(NAGCA) or
&gt; MallCrawlin'.com are two of MANY. After you get a 4.0 broke in (100K)
&gt; there are &quot;stroker&quot; kits and other hop-up tricks galore.
&gt;
&gt; <a href="http://community.webtv.net/EDdaTREE/MUDTHUGS4X4CLUB" target="_blank">http://community.webtv.net/EDdaTREE/MUDTHUGS4X4CLUB</a>

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#23: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-22 14:16:13 by Al J

In addition to the build sheet which is on DC's computer, if buying from
a Jeep dealer a friendly service advisor can pull up the warranty claim
history on his computer. This won't show routine service or non-warranty
repairs and may be less useful for higher mileage vehicles, but if
something has been torn apart multiple times, at least you'll know.

I have to agree about the 4.0 and towing. My boat is just under 3,000
lbs. and my '97 ZJ without factory tow and the standard 3.55 axle hauls
it just fine, far better than the V6 Exploder I had in a previous life.
The 4.0 has a lot of torque at useable RPM and when not towing cruises
quite happily down the Interstate doing 70 mph at a hair over 2,000 rpm
while showing 24 mpg on the trip computer. If I could wave a magic wand
and make my ZJ new again I'd do it.

IMO DC has gone the wrong way with the new GC in making it longer,
wider, etc. I suspect it has more in common with a Dodge Durago than a
WJ. ;-)

In article &lt;42d35$44c12ce4$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:3179&#64;FUSE.NET" target="_blank">3179&#64;FUSE.NET</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a> says...
&gt; The Dana44 in question is the 44a (aluminum), not the regular 44 which is
&gt; iron. The two share little in common.
&gt;
&gt; There are strength issues for both available axles (d44a &amp; d35c) and it may
&gt; well be a toss-up as to which one is preferable or superior.
&gt;
&gt; I believe that both WJs in question had the factory tow package which comes
&gt; standard with the d44a and 3.73 gearing.
&gt;
&gt; The 4 liter engine gets a lot of criticism on some boards in regards to
&gt; performance. It is true that it won't win many drag races but is perfectly
&gt; adequate for normal operation and towing. When towing in the mountains it
&gt; is necessary to lock out overdrive.
&gt;
&gt; On the other hand it had a proven durability of several hundred thousand
&gt; miles before a major rebuild is required.
&gt;
&gt; Please note that in my previous post I mentioned the NV249 transfer case.
&gt; While it also has its problems I should have said nv247 AWD case.
&gt;
&gt; In any case be sure to get a 'build sheet' from the dealership (or via
&gt; e-mail). They offer a wealth of information at no charge.
&gt;
&gt;

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#24: Re: Candid Thoughts on GC Value

Posted on 2006-07-22 17:11:21 by Lon

Problem is that most folks think short commutes at city street speeds
are better for a vehicle than a 30 mile high speed freeway run. Fluids
never get hot enough to burn off condensation.

billy ray proclaimed:
&gt; If we can get Bill to post you a link to the WJ maintenance and Lubrication
&gt; Schedule you can get details on the differences.
&gt;
&gt; I read a story some time ago that according to GM over 90 percent of drivers
&gt; should be following 'severe service' rather than the maintenance schedule
&gt; the manufacturers advertise.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I assume it is similar or higher for Jeeps.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:TbYvg.6947$<a href="mailto:PN4.394&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">PN4.394&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Billy Ray,
&gt;&gt;What a great site ! ! ! THanks so much! That will really help.
&gt;&gt;So, taking the dash out is a job huh? That's an understatement. Heh.
&gt;&gt;Thanks for the explanation of 'severe service'.
&gt;&gt;I do appreciate all the help. It clears a lot up for me.
&gt;&gt;D
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;news:94006$44c04b27$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:7039&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">7039&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;There is blend door write up on WJ Jeeps at:
&gt;&gt;&gt;<a href="http://www.wjjeeps.com/hvac_sub_assembly.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wjjeeps.com/hvac_sub_assembly.htm</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;In 'severe service' you replace most of the underbody lubricants on a
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;yearly
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;basis, on the other schedule they are 'lifetime' fluids.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I would also take the vehicle to a dead end street or parking lot at
&gt;&gt;&gt;night
&gt;&gt;&gt;(when it is quieter) and listen for noises/bindings while at slow speed
&gt;&gt;&gt;going from full lock to lock
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I was somewhat surprised at the lack of tire options myself. This is
&gt;&gt;&gt;compounded by a lack of information about what other 17 inch sizes will
&gt;&gt;&gt;actually fit without interference or lifting.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I suspect that mileage would be somewhat better with the Selec-Trac but
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I've
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;never heard that it was very much.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt;news:fyWvg.1801$D%<a href="mailto:4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.1387&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Thanks Billy Ray. I agree. Most of the problems with my 93 ZJ inline 6
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;have
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;been the accessories. Does that blend door cause the whole system to
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;fail?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I'm sorry, I don't understand your second paragraph here. I assume the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;nv249
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;xfer case is the Quadra-Drive? What is the 'severe service' maintenance
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;you
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;mention? There was no binding, stiffness or noise from the underside
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;during
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;a 5 mile test drive. I did try to make several sharp, lock to lock
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;turns
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;during it for that reason. I was surprised a full time 4WD could be so
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;smooth.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Do I understand you to say that the Select-Trac is more durable in your
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;opinion than the Quadra? Is this because it is only an occassional
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;part-time
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;use of the system? I would think that gas mileage might be better with
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;the
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Selec-Trac since you're not driving the front wheels all the time too.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I have done the resistor checkout in my 93. I agree, simple and easy
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;fix.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;am a recovering shade-tree guy anyway.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I don't care really too much about the hooks or the CD changer really.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;just put that in cause it came to mind, but thanks.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The tire reference is very telling. I do appreciate that type of
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;information.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Thanks for your input. Any other thoughts?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;billy ray&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net" target="_blank">billy_ray&#64;SPAMfuse.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;news:a83dc$44c0281f$48311eaf$<a href="mailto:5046&#64;FUSE.NET..." target="_blank">5046&#64;FUSE.NET...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The doo-dads, gee-gaw, and bling bling in the Limiteds and Overlands
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;are
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;most common cause of expensive repairs.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The Limited's automatic temperature control system have a well known
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;tendency of developing the 'blend door' syndrome where you will get in
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;vehicle one day and find yourself needing a $1000-$1200 worth of labor
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;to
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;get the heat or A/C to work as the dash needs to be removed to replace
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;$12
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;in parts. There may well be no warning before failure
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The nv249 transfer case is also a point of weakness, especially in a
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;vehicle
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;that hasn't had 'severe service' maintenance performed. Pay special
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;attention to ANY noise, stiffness, resistance, clunking when
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;accelerating
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;and especially turning which would indicate failure is approaching.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;When
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;it
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;fails you will be, literally, stuck wherever the failure occurs. The
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;real
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;'fix' for this situation is to swap in a nv242 Selec-Trac transfer
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;case.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The Laredo's heat/air system lacks the trouble prone components of the
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;ATC.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;There is a known problem in the resistor block that controls the fan
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;speeds.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;It is located underneath the glovebox and is easily replaced in your
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;driveway in a few minutes
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;If you want tow hooks they are available at the dealer parts
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;department
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;in
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;chrome or black for less than $100 for the front or, if you are handy,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;you
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;can install them yourself and save the labor charge The CD changer
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;can
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;also
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;be added at anytime, the changer controls are, most likely, already in
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;your
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;factory radio.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Other differences.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Laredos have 16 inch wheels that offer a large amount of choice in
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;highway
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;and off-road tires. The Limiteds have 17 inch wheels and their
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;specific
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;size (235/65x17) is only made by a couple brands.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;D&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dpfer&#64;r.com" target="_blank">dpfer&#64;r.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;news:73Vvg.1760$D%<a href="mailto:4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">4.711&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Hi All,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I hope you might indulge me with an exercise on the value of two
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;vehicles
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I'm comparing for purchase.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Vehicle 1 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Limited with 82,500 miles. Very
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;clean
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;and mechanically inspected. 4.7 Liter V-8 with the Quadra-Drive
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;system.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Other baubles, leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., tow hooks on
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;front,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;dual temp controls, 10 CD changer and cassette player, side impact
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;airbags,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;90 day warranty. Car drives out very nice. Asking $13,999, will come
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;down
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;some from that.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Vehicle 2 is a 2002 Grand Cherokee, Laredo with 37,950 miles. Also
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;very
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;clean but as-is. 4.7 Liter V-8 with a Selec-Trac system. Other
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;options
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;make
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;it like a Limited. Leather, moon-roof, factory tow pkg., no tow
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;hooks
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;though, single temp control, single CD and cassette player, driver
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;and
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;passenger airbags, 30 day warranty. Drives out very nice. Lowest
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;price,
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;$15,200
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;V-1 is cherry, obviously a highway car.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;V-1 seems like a mongrel with the V-8/Selec-Trac system and the
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Limited
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;trim
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;on a Laredo.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Any candid thoughts?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I'm particularly interested to know if the Selec-Trac system is good
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;behind
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;that V-8. I think it might save a bit on gas mileage maybe.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Thanks.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;D
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

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