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#1: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-16 18:14:46 by Charles Stembridge

Dang. I've got parts EVERYWHERE. Found clutch plates broken in several places.
Got to the point where I needed a deep 12 mm socket to remove something
obscurely named "segment" and called it a night about 10 pm last night. The part
above the segment had 2 little springs, 2 little spring tips, and 2 chunks of
steel that fell apart as I pulled it off. It doesn't look easy to put it back
together...something that makes the shifter work.

I spent a couple hours yesterday driving all over to find a rotor holder.
Finally found some obscure Race Tech tool kicked under the shelf at a cycle
gear. Bought it, (not sure what Race Tech intended it to be used for) got the
rotor off ! and then went to take off the clutch basket and hub. Guess what, the
Motion Pro clutch holding tool I've had for probably 3 years also has 8mm studs
designed to hold the rotor...glad cycle gear has a lenient return policy.

Off to get a 12mm deep socket. To be continued.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#2: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-16 18:28:48 by Mike Baxter

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:14:46 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt;
wrote:

&gt;Dang. I've got parts EVERYWHERE. Found clutch plates broken in several places.
&gt;Got to the point where I needed a deep 12 mm socket to remove something
&gt;obscurely named &quot;segment&quot; and called it a night about 10 pm last night. The part
&gt;above the segment had 2 little springs, 2 little spring tips, and 2 chunks of
&gt;steel that fell apart as I pulled it off. It doesn't look easy to put it back
&gt;together...something that makes the shifter work.
&gt;
&gt;I spent a couple hours yesterday driving all over to find a rotor holder.
&gt;Finally found some obscure Race Tech tool kicked under the shelf at a cycle
&gt;gear. Bought it, (not sure what Race Tech intended it to be used for) got the
&gt;rotor off ! and then went to take off the clutch basket and hub. Guess what, the
&gt;Motion Pro clutch holding tool I've had for probably 3 years also has 8mm studs
&gt;designed to hold the rotor...glad cycle gear has a lenient return policy.
&gt;
&gt;Off to get a 12mm deep socket. To be continued.


No worries. I will come up to Walnut Creek if you would like.


Mike Baxter --------------- &quot;All GasGas, All The Time&quot;

2005 GasGas EC300, 2000 GasGas EC300, 1997 GasGas JXT270

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#3: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-16 19:49:38 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:27qkb2ld020o6dt798vbcjipuch352tvu2&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">27qkb2ld020o6dt798vbcjipuch352tvu2&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
Mike Baxter &lt;m&quot;who&quot;@comcast.net&gt; wrote:

&gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:14:46 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt;
&gt; wrote:
&gt;

&gt; &gt;Off to get a 12mm deep socket. To be continued.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; No worries. I will come up to Walnut Creek if you would like.
&gt;

Thanks, I'll let you know...

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#4: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-17 00:03:11 by WoodsChick

HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:27qkb2ld020o6dt798vbcjipuch352tvu2&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">27qkb2ld020o6dt798vbcjipuch352tvu2&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; Mike Baxter &lt;m&quot;who&quot;@comcast.net&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:14:46 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt;
&gt; &gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Off to get a 12mm deep socket. To be continued.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; No worries. I will come up to Walnut Creek if you would like.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; Thanks, I'll let you know...

Well, it's 4:05pm, and you haven't shown up yet. Either you're doing
ok, or you've slit your wrists and have put yourself out of your
misery.

I'm guessing it's the former &lt;G&gt;

&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Charles
&gt; '99 YZ250

Tami-

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#5: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-17 00:03:11 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153091184.850146.248310&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153091184.850146.248310&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&quot;WoodsChick&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:TamiRowell&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">TamiRowell&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:27qkb2ld020o6dt798vbcjipuch352tvu2&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">27qkb2ld020o6dt798vbcjipuch352tvu2&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &gt; Mike Baxter &lt;m&quot;who&quot;@comcast.net&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:14:46 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Off to get a 12mm deep socket. To be continued.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; No worries. I will come up to Walnut Creek if you would like.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Thanks, I'll let you know...
&gt;
&gt; Well, it's 4:05pm, and you haven't shown up yet. Either you're doing
&gt; ok, or you've slit your wrists and have put yourself out of your
&gt; misery.
&gt;
&gt; I'm guessing it's the former &lt;G&gt;
&gt;

No, I've got the cases in the freezer, hoping that will help. grrrr.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#6: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-17 04:31:06 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey-8BECCB.16214716072006&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">harvey-8BECCB.16214716072006&#64;individual.net</a>&gt;,
HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153091184.850146.248310&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153091184.850146.248310&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &quot;WoodsChick&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:TamiRowell&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">TamiRowell&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:27qkb2ld020o6dt798vbcjipuch352tvu2&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">27qkb2ld020o6dt798vbcjipuch352tvu2&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &gt; &gt; Mike Baxter &lt;m&quot;who&quot;@comcast.net&gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:14:46 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Off to get a 12mm deep socket. To be continued.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; No worries. I will come up to Walnut Creek if you would like.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks, I'll let you know...
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Well, it's 4:05pm, and you haven't shown up yet. Either you're doing
&gt; &gt; ok, or you've slit your wrists and have put yourself out of your
&gt; &gt; misery.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I'm guessing it's the former &lt;G&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; No, I've got the cases in the freezer, hoping that will help. grrrr.

It didn't. Thanks to Tami-n-Eric, and a bigger hammer, and the right set of
bearing drivers, it's time to start putting it all back together.

Thanks you two--made my day!

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#7: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-17 15:35:03 by diariodastrilhas

HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; No, I've got the cases in the freezer, hoping that will help. grrrr.

I always tought that bearings goes to the freezer and cases goes to the
oven? I mean, cold bearings and hot cases?

-- Tiago

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#8: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-17 16:09:43 by midwestmotocross

Tiago Rocha wrote:
&gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt; No, I've got the cases in the freezer, hoping that will help. grrrr.
&gt;
&gt; I always tought that bearings goes to the freezer and cases goes to the
&gt; oven? I mean, cold bearings and hot cases?
&gt;
&gt; -- Tiago

Ack!

Umm. Baxter, how soon can you make that drive?

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#9: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-17 16:19:02 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153143303.107841.24210&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153143303.107841.24210&#64;p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt; No, I've got the cases in the freezer, hoping that will help. grrrr.
&gt;
&gt; I always tought that bearings goes to the freezer and cases goes to the
&gt; oven? I mean, cold bearings and hot cases?

Yes, well, except I couldn't get the damn old bearings out of the cases to begin
with. Tried heating up the aluminum around the bearing, pounded the living
daylights out of it (I thought), still couldn't budge anything. So I figured if
I froze the whole case (with old bearing in it), then quickly heated up the
aluminum around the now cold bearing it might help. It didn't.

Took the cases to Eric &amp; Tami's workshop. Eric had a nice set of bearing/seal
drivers, and a bigger hammer, and the experience to know how much pounding
something like this could take. He got them out, and then let me borrow his seal
drivers for the re-assembly. The old bearings (and seals) were almost glued in
by what looked like some kind of corrosion between the steel bearing and
aluminum case. The crank would not let go of the left side main bearing either,
we had to drive the bearing out with the crank still attached to it.

New bearings are now settled in for a nice chill in the freezer.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#10: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-17 16:26:38 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153145383.641139.89270&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153145383.641139.89270&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:midwestmotocross&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">midwestmotocross&#64;yahoo.com</a> wrote:

&gt; Tiago Rocha wrote:
&gt; &gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; No, I've got the cases in the freezer, hoping that will help. grrrr.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I always tought that bearings goes to the freezer and cases goes to the
&gt; &gt; oven? I mean, cold bearings and hot cases?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; -- Tiago
&gt;
&gt; Ack!
&gt;
&gt; Umm. Baxter, how soon can you make that drive?

Now now, you guys need to read a little more carefully. Bearings were STILL in
the cases. There was a method to my apparent madness. I've always wished someone
would invent a cold gun.

Although, after pounding on the bearing until I was a sweaty mess (manual &quot;DO
NOT STRIKE BEARINGS WITH HAMMER&quot;) I had this sudden panic that maybe I was
driving them out the wrong way :)

I wasn't. They just didn't want to leave the nest, is all.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#11: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-17 16:54:54 by John

&quot;HardWorkingDog&quot; &lt;
&gt;&gt; Ack!
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Umm. Baxter, how soon can you make that drive?
&gt;
&gt; Now now, you guys need to read a little more carefully. Bearings were
&gt; STILL in
&gt; the cases. There was a method to my apparent madness. I've always wished
&gt; someone
&gt; would invent a cold gun.

CO2 fire extinguisher is your friend.....
another way involves air venturies
<a href="http://www.vortec.com/vortex_tubes.php" target="_blank">http://www.vortec.com/vortex_tubes.php</a>
or if someones ex wife is around just have her look at them &lt;they'll freaze
&amp; fall off&gt;

&gt; Although, after pounding on the bearing until I was a sweaty mess (manual
&gt; &quot;DO
&gt; NOT STRIKE BEARINGS WITH HAMMER&quot;) I had this sudden panic that maybe I was
&gt; driving them out the wrong way :)
&gt;
&gt; I wasn't. They just didn't want to leave the nest, is all.
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Charles
&gt; '99 YZ250

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#12: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-17 20:25:54 by outofthe

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 07:26:38 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;I've always wished someone
&gt;would invent a cold gun.

Invert a can of DustOff... helped with my KZP clutch bearings:)

BTW.... spray some on your arm. It feels cool.

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P

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#13: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-18 03:21:00 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:3glnb295itbcdtnq8dfpauh2k79n07cqvm&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">3glnb295itbcdtnq8dfpauh2k79n07cqvm&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
Mike W. &lt;<a href="mailto:outofthe&#64;emailbiz.com" target="_blank">outofthe&#64;emailbiz.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 07:26:38 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;I've always wished someone
&gt; &gt;would invent a cold gun.
&gt;
&gt; Invert a can of DustOff... helped with my KZP clutch bearings:)
&gt;
&gt; BTW.... spray some on your arm. It feels cool.
&gt;

Ya know, I thought of that. If I'd had some in the house I would've tried it.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#14: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-18 03:21:35 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;1xNug.32249$<a href="mailto:B62.27190&#64;fe07.news.easynews.com" target="_blank">B62.27190&#64;fe07.news.easynews.com</a>&gt;,
&quot;john&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:john-----rmd---removedashes---&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">john-----rmd---removedashes---&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; &gt; someone
&gt; &gt; would invent a cold gun.
&gt;
&gt; CO2 fire extinguisher is your friend.....
&gt; another way involves air venturies
&gt; <a href="http://www.vortec.com/vortex_tubes.php" target="_blank">http://www.vortec.com/vortex_tubes.php</a>

That's pretty cool! I love industrial spot processes.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#15: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-18 06:22:49 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey-89781A.07263817072006&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">harvey-89781A.07263817072006&#64;individual.net</a>&gt;,
HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153145383.641139.89270&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153145383.641139.89270&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; <a href="mailto:midwestmotocross&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">midwestmotocross&#64;yahoo.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Tiago Rocha wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; No, I've got the cases in the freezer, hoping that will help. grrrr.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; I always tought that bearings goes to the freezer and cases goes to the
&gt; &gt; &gt; oven? I mean, cold bearings and hot cases?
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; -- Tiago
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Ack!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Umm. Baxter, how soon can you make that drive?
&gt;
&gt; Now now, you guys need to read a little more carefully.

uhh, sorry. Should've said &quot;you guys need to read &lt;minds&gt; a little more
carefully.&quot; I never had mentioned the problem I was having with the old
bearings. BFH and all that.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#16: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-18 11:33:46 by dr_versaeg

Hi!

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:14:46 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt;
wrote :
&gt;Dang. I've got parts EVERYWHERE.

That's normal. Thermodynamic scientists call this &quot;enthropy&quot;. ;-)

&gt;Found clutch plates broken in several places.

*ugh* Was that kinda race-mod...? ;-)

&gt;The part
&gt;above the segment had 2 little springs, 2 little spring tips, and 2 chunks of
&gt;steel that fell apart as I pulled it off. It doesn't look easy to put it back
&gt;together...something that makes the shifter work.

Ah. I remember that part when splitting my KTM 620's case (which is
easier because of the zylindrical roller bearings in the lower end that
come apart w/o force). Did I tell you about 5 reverse gears...? ;-)

&gt;I spent a couple hours yesterday driving all over to find a rotor holder.
&gt;Finally found some obscure Race Tech tool kicked under the shelf at a cycle
&gt;gear. Bought it, (not sure what Race Tech intended it to be used for) got the
&gt;rotor off ! and then went to take off the clutch basket and hub. Guess what, the
&gt;Motion Pro clutch holding tool I've had for probably 3 years also has 8mm studs
&gt;designed to hold the rotor...glad cycle gear has a lenient return policy.

Ah. Cool trick! I gotta try that with my parts dealers: Buy, use, clean,
return. Might also work with valve shims... ;-)

&gt;Off to get a 12mm deep socket. To be continued.

That should be piece of cake. Good luck!

V.

__
Mail replies to/an V B A R T H E L D at G M X dot D E

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#17: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-18 11:38:25 by dr_versaeg

Hi!

&gt;Now now, you guys need to read a little more carefully. Bearings were STILL in
&gt;the cases.

HEAT, HEAT, HEAT. Ample amounts of heat. If you think it's enough, just
continue for another 5 minutes. If the case sizzles when you spit on it,
it's just right. Aluminum (the case) has a much higher thermal expansion
coefficient than steel (the bearings). =&gt; HEAT. (Like in &quot;The Matrix&quot;:
We need guns, lots of guns.).

&gt;Although, after pounding on the bearing until I was a sweaty mess (manual &quot;DO
&gt;NOT STRIKE BEARINGS WITH HAMMER&quot;) I had this sudden panic that maybe I was
-----------^ a &quot;NEW&quot; is missing here.
&gt;driving them out the wrong way :)

Wuhaha. Well, OK. BTDT, forgot a circlip (CR250R lower shock linkage).

&gt;I wasn't. They just didn't want to leave the nest, is all.

I heard, people are keeping a big electric motor in their garage for
that purpose. ;-)

V.

__
Mail replies to/an V B A R T H E L D at G M X dot D E

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#18: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-18 16:00:11 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:4i3ok7F209eeU2&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">4i3ok7F209eeU2&#64;individual.net</a>&gt;,
Volker Bartheld &lt;<a href="mailto:dr_versaeg&#64;freenet.de" target="_blank">dr_versaeg&#64;freenet.de</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Hi!

Guten tag! (that's about the extent of my deutsche)

&gt; &gt;Now now, you guys need to read a little more carefully. Bearings were STILL
&gt; &gt;in
&gt; &gt;the cases.
&gt;
&gt; HEAT, HEAT, HEAT. Ample amounts of heat. If you think it's enough, just
&gt; continue for another 5 minutes. If the case sizzles when you spit on it,
&gt; it's just right. Aluminum (the case) has a much higher thermal expansion
&gt; coefficient than steel (the bearings). =&gt; HEAT. (Like in &quot;The Matrix&quot;:
&gt; We need guns, lots of guns.).

OK. I've been thinking of sticking them in the oven (old bearings are now GONE),
although now I worry about the nice little seals still in the cases (shift
lever, trans, kicker, etc.) I'd imagine they can handle some heat. Do you have
any recommendation for temperature to set the oven? I'm thinking that the main
bearing seats in the cases have a relatively massive shape that doesn't permit
much exansion from localized heating--at least if I was the case designer, that
would probably be a primary goal. Heating up the entire case would probably give
me better results.

If this isn't a good idea, I'll use the propane and spit method.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#19: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-18 16:03:38 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:4i3obgF209eeU1&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">4i3obgF209eeU1&#64;individual.net</a>&gt;,
Volker Bartheld &lt;<a href="mailto:dr_versaeg&#64;freenet.de" target="_blank">dr_versaeg&#64;freenet.de</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; &gt;The part
&gt; &gt;above the segment had 2 little springs, 2 little spring tips, and 2 chunks
&gt; &gt;of
&gt; &gt;steel that fell apart as I pulled it off. It doesn't look easy to put it
&gt; &gt;back
&gt; &gt;together...something that makes the shifter work.
&gt;
&gt; Ah. I remember that part when splitting my KTM 620's case (which is
&gt; easier because of the zylindrical roller bearings in the lower end that
&gt; come apart w/o force). Did I tell you about 5 reverse gears...? ;-)

Oh no, another nightmare in the making. Now that I've got everything torn apart,
I realize I didn't even need to take the segment or the spring thingy off to
remove the crank. Next time...

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#20: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-18 17:15:25 by dr_versaeg

Hi!

&gt;Guten tag! (that's about the extent of my deutsche)

Well, that's about 400% better than my conaissance de francais. ;-)

&gt;OK. I've been thinking of sticking them in the oven (old bearings are now GONE),
&gt;although now I worry about the nice little seals still in the cases (shift
&gt;lever, trans, kicker, etc.)

You didn't replace them? Tsetsetse... They &lt;nightmare&gt;will start to leak
as soon as you have mated the cases again&lt;/nightmare&gt;...

&gt;I'd imagine they can handle some heat. Do you have
&gt;any recommendation for temperature to set the oven?

Hmmm. How hot is the gear oil supposed to get? That should be about the
temperature you can safely heat the cases. I would say 100°C/212°F is a
reasonable value. Ordinary rubber seals will probably also take
150°C/302°F but will then get a little soft. I would say -15°C/5°F for
the bearings/crankshaft (freezer) and 100°C for the cases is more than
enough for a safe and sane recombination.

At least for my CR250R it was - if you do it without long hesitation.

&gt;I'm thinking that the main
&gt;bearing seats in the cases have a relatively massive shape that doesn't permit
&gt;much exansion from localized heating--at least if I was the case designer, that
&gt;would probably be a primary goal. Heating up the entire case would probably give
&gt;me better results.

Indeed. Since I had no oven, I used the hot air gun (up to 400°C/752°F)
over the whole case but shielded the (new) oilseals a little with some
cloth.

Good luck!


Volker

__
Mail replies to/an V B A R T H E L D at G M X dot D E

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#21: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-18 21:12:53 by Wudsracer

&gt;On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:00:11 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;OK. I've been thinking of sticking them in the oven (old bearings are now GONE),
&gt;although now I worry about the nice little seals still in the cases (shift
&gt;lever, trans, kicker, etc.) I'd imagine they can handle some heat. Do you have
&gt;any recommendation for temperature to set the oven? I'm thinking that the main
&gt;bearing seats in the cases have a relatively massive shape that doesn't permit
&gt;much exansion from localized heating--at least if I was the case designer, that
&gt;would probably be a primary goal. Heating up the entire case would probably give
&gt;me better results.
&gt;
&gt;If this isn't a good idea, I'll use the propane and spit method.
&gt;
&gt;--
&gt;Charles
&gt;'99 YZ250


Not changing all the seals while you are there?
What sort of gasket kit are you using? If it was a &quot;split the cases&quot;
teardown we normally used a Moose gasket and seal kit for &quot;popular&quot;
motorcycles. It is a good quality, but very cost effective kit.

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#22: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-19 03:01:48 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:iacqb2h0p9c00qgc2mo661eqcpo6cr6ibc&#64;4ax.com" target="_blank">iacqb2h0p9c00qgc2mo661eqcpo6cr6ibc&#64;4ax.com</a>&gt;,
Wudsracer &lt;<a href="mailto:dirtbike52RemovE&#64;sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">dirtbike52RemovE&#64;sbcglobal.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; &gt;On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:00:11 -0700, HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt;OK. I've been thinking of sticking them in the oven (old bearings are now
&gt; &gt;GONE),
&gt; &gt;although now I worry about the nice little seals still in the cases (shift
&gt; &gt;lever, trans, kicker, etc.) I'd imagine they can handle some heat. Do you
&gt; &gt;have
&gt; &gt;any recommendation for temperature to set the oven? I'm thinking that the
&gt; &gt;main
&gt; &gt;bearing seats in the cases have a relatively massive shape that doesn't
&gt; &gt;permit
&gt; &gt;much exansion from localized heating--at least if I was the case designer,
&gt; &gt;that
&gt; &gt;would probably be a primary goal. Heating up the entire case would probably
&gt; &gt;give
&gt; &gt;me better results.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;If this isn't a good idea, I'll use the propane and spit method.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;--
&gt; &gt;Charles
&gt; &gt;'99 YZ250
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Not changing all the seals while you are there?
&gt; What sort of gasket kit are you using? If it was a &quot;split the cases&quot;
&gt; teardown we normally used a Moose gasket and seal kit for &quot;popular&quot;
&gt; motorcycles. It is a good quality, but very cost effective kit.

Duh. A Moose kit will be on order very shortly.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#23: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-19 13:42:02 by GP

HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt;Do you have
&gt; any recommendation for temperature to set the oven?
&gt; Charles
&gt; '99 YZ250

I set the oven to 250 F. Heating a metal &quot;slug&quot; and resting it on the
crank bearing inner race for a few minutes can be helpful during
reassembly of the case halves.
GP

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#24: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-19 15:51:58 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153309322.432681.127810&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153309322.432681.127810&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&quot;GP&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:gplassmann&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">gplassmann&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt;Do you have
&gt; &gt; any recommendation for temperature to set the oven?
&gt; &gt; Charles
&gt; &gt; '99 YZ250
&gt;
&gt; I set the oven to 250 F. Heating a metal &quot;slug&quot; and resting it on the
&gt; crank bearing inner race for a few minutes can be helpful during
&gt; reassembly of the case halves.
&gt; GP

Thanks. Wife will be out of town tonight, the oven is MINE.

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#25: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-19 16:02:43 by John

&quot;HardWorkingDog&quot; &lt;ha
&gt; &quot;GP&quot; &lt;
&gt;&gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;Do you have
&gt;&gt; &gt; any recommendation for temperature to set the oven?
&gt;&gt; &gt; Charles
&gt;&gt; &gt; '99 YZ250
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I set the oven to 250 F. Heating a metal &quot;slug&quot; and resting it on the
&gt;&gt; crank bearing inner race for a few minutes can be helpful during
&gt;&gt; reassembly of the case halves.
&gt;&gt; GP
&gt;
&gt; Thanks. Wife will be out of town tonight, the oven is MINE.
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Charles

might I humbly suggest that you purchase a bag of ideal french fries or the
like and cook a handful of them after you pull the cases out of the oven,
then throw them out... this will create a smell through out the house that
will mask any motorcycle style odor that might be left in the house
prompting a flurry of questions, being that my wife knows me well she is
suspicious when i cook, cause she knows i rarely touch the oven controls....
so far the i was hungry answer covers most odd behavior &amp; smells
explanation... tinfoil double layered under the case is a good idea, and
wiping the oven controls &amp; handle off when you are done removes the grease
monkey trail from her kitchen &lt;grin&gt;
john
gas grills on low also work in a pinch

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#26: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-20 09:32:16 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:4i4cc3F24hljU1&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">4i4cc3F24hljU1&#64;individual.net</a>&gt;,
Volker Bartheld &lt;<a href="mailto:dr_versaeg&#64;freenet.de" target="_blank">dr_versaeg&#64;freenet.de</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt; You didn't replace them? Tsetsetse... They &lt;nightmare&gt;will start to leak
&gt; as soon as you have mated the cases again&lt;/nightmare&gt;...
&gt;
&gt; &gt;I'd imagine they can handle some heat. Do you have
&gt; &gt;any recommendation for temperature to set the oven?
&gt;
&gt; Hmmm. How hot is the gear oil supposed to get? That should be about the
&gt; temperature you can safely heat the cases. I would say 100°C/212°F is a
&gt; reasonable value. Ordinary rubber seals will probably also take
&gt; 150°C/302°F but will then get a little soft. I would say -15°C/5°F for
&gt; the bearings/crankshaft (freezer) and 100°C for the cases is more than
&gt; enough for a safe and sane recombination.

Whew....

The crank is in, cases Yamabonded (along with fingers) and bolted together.
Everything seems pretty good, although there was plenty of worrying to get to
this place.

I put the cases in the oven tonight, along with wife's digital meat thermometer,
just to be sure. Kept it under 250 F, for about an hour. Didn't smell too bad at
all :) Bearings and crank had been in freezer since Sunday. Took the first case
out of the oven, singing like Julia, I'm pretty sure the oil will come out of
the hot pads. Kind of looks like a gravy stain, oh well. Set it on the bench,
got out the frozen bearing. Took forever to unwrap it. Set it on the case, it
dropped in about 1/3 of the way and then wedged. By the time I realized what had
happened the bearing had warmed, the seat had cooled, and it was stuck. Damn.
Took out Eric's bearing driver slug and bfh, and started beating away. Got it
close, but it was still about .5 mm out. Beat on it some more, and finally got
it. Don't really like this part.

The next bearing I was quicker, the thing literally dropped into the seat,
perfect. Within 10 seconds it had equalized and was snugly embedded, tight as,
well, you know the expression. I like this part.

The seals went in, but I had a bit of a time getting them to stay parallel to
the seat. Took the crank out, it dropped right into the right side bearing.
Smeared Yamabond on the case, put the 2 halves together and with just a bit of
massaging they slid together. Torqued the bolts, and the transmission and crank
both turn free and easy. Nice.

&gt;
&gt; Good luck!

Thank you! Only 752 parts left to go.

&gt; Volker

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#27: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-20 11:14:35 by dr_versaeg

Hi Charles!

&gt;I put the cases in the oven tonight, along with wife's digital meat thermometer,
&gt;just to be sure. Kept it under 250 F, for about an hour. Didn't smell too bad at
&gt;all :)

Actually, I still get horny when I smell 2-stroke fumes even though I'm
riding a thumper for several years now. But that's an entirely different
story. Must be something about romantic love that broke apart (my middle
foot)...

&gt;got out the frozen bearing. Took forever to unwrap it. Set it on the case, it
&gt;dropped in about 1/3 of the way and then wedged.

Ummm. Yeah. BTDT. If you tilt the bearing just a little, it will not
budge - not even by a hairbreadth. Happened to me, too. I removed the
bearing as fast as I could and tried it again (oven, fridge, ...).

&gt;By the time I realized what had
&gt;happened the bearing had warmed, the seat had cooled, and it was stuck. Damn.
&gt;Took out Eric's bearing driver slug and bfh, and started beating away. Got it
&gt;close, but it was still about .5 mm out. Beat on it some more, and finally got
&gt;it. Don't really like this part.

Actually, the shop guys always do it like this, no heat involved. Well,
this will probably fatigue the seats a little but if you don't apply
brute force, it'll work out several times.

&gt;The next bearing I was quicker, the thing literally dropped into the seat,
&gt;perfect. Within 10 seconds it had equalized and was snugly embedded, tight as,
&gt;well, you know the expression. I like this part.

Excactly. It gives you the warm fuzzy feeling of perfection if no FBH or
electric motor is involved. Same with my KTM's wheel bearings. They
literally fell into their seats after some hot-air-gunning and then more
or less stuck like glue.

&gt;The seals went in, but I had a bit of a time getting them to stay parallel to
&gt;the seat.

Agree. That sucks. Sometimes, you can build a tool that will guide in
the seals perpendicularily. I think, the first few millimetres are the
most important. For the front sprocket axle seals of the KTM, you can
simply mount the sprocket the wrong way around and guide in the seal
with the sprocket nut. Nice!

&gt;Took the crank out, it dropped right into the right side bearing.

Yeah!

&gt;Smeared Yamabond on the case, put the 2 halves together and with just a bit of
&gt;massaging they slid together.

Ah! They go together w/o a paper gasket? I remember that my CR250 needed
such. You have plenty of options to fsck up whith a gasket like that. I
ended up smearing silicone grease onto every surface, so the gasket
stuck to the case half.

&gt;Torqued the bolts, and the transmission and crank
&gt;both turn free and easy. Nice.

Yeppa! Piece of cake as I told you. Welcome to the club! Next time (as
soon as you realize, the joint between the case halfs is leaking oil -
just kindding...) this will work in 1/2 of the time and w/o peeing your
pants. You will still sweat in fear but that's normal for every paranoid
motorcycle home-mechanic, I guess.

&gt;Thank you! Only 752 parts left to go.

As long as nothing stays left over... ;-)

Happy finalizing to you!


Volker

__
Mail replies to/an V B A R T H E L D at G M X dot D E

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#28: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-20 18:03:45 by DirtCrashr

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:14:35 +0200, Volker Bartheld
&lt;<a href="mailto:dr_versaeg&#64;freenet.de" target="_blank">dr_versaeg&#64;freenet.de</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&gt;The next bearing I was quicker, the thing literally dropped into the seat,
&gt;&gt;perfect. Within 10 seconds it had equalized and was snugly embedded, tight as,
&gt;&gt;well, you know the expression. I like this part.
&gt;
&gt;Excactly. It gives you the warm fuzzy feeling of perfection if no FBH or
&gt;electric motor is involved. Same with my KTM's wheel bearings. They
&gt;literally fell into their seats after some hot-air-gunning and then more
&gt;or less stuck like glue.

That sounds kewl, nice work!!

-k

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#29: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-20 18:41:22 by diariodastrilhas

HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Thank you! Only 752 parts left to go.

Hey, if after you finish, the bike starts and you notice some parts
still on the work bench, you can make a little robot out of them! &lt;G&gt;

-- Tiago

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#30: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:31:48 by SC_Tom

&quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153413682.646068.62350&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153413682.646068.62350&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Thank you! Only 752 parts left to go.
&gt;
&gt; Hey, if after you finish, the bike starts and you notice some parts
&gt; still on the work bench, you can make a little robot out of them! &lt;G&gt;
&gt;
&gt; -- Tiago
&gt;

Yes, you do not really need all of those shims ;)

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#31: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:47:32 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153413682.646068.62350&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153413682.646068.62350&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&quot;Tiago Rocha&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">diariodastrilhas&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Thank you! Only 752 parts left to go.
&gt;
&gt; Hey, if after you finish, the bike starts and you notice some parts
&gt; still on the work bench, you can make a little robot out of them! &lt;G&gt;

HAL, open the pod door...

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#32: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-21 04:18:52 by dsc

HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153145383.641139.89270&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153145383.641139.89270&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; <a href="mailto:midwestmotocross&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">midwestmotocross&#64;yahoo.com</a> wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Tiago Rocha wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; HardWorkingDog wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; No, I've got the cases in the freezer, hoping that will help. grrrr.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; I always tought that bearings goes to the freezer and cases goes to the
&gt; &gt; &gt; oven? I mean, cold bearings and hot cases?
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; -- Tiago
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Ack!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Umm. Baxter, how soon can you make that drive?
&gt;
&gt; Now now, you guys need to read a little more carefully. Bearings were STILL in
&gt; the cases. There was a method to my apparent madness. I've always wished someone
&gt; would invent a cold gun.

They do... a can of freon and a spray nozzle... :)

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#33: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-21 04:24:00 by dsc

&gt; The next bearing I was quicker, the thing literally dropped into the seat,
&gt; perfect. Within 10 seconds it had equalized and was snugly embedded, tight as,
&gt; well, you know the expression. I like this part.

.... tighter than green on a shamrock?

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#34: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-21 05:43:32 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153448640.184631.83110&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153448640.184631.83110&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&quot;dsc&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Dudley.Cornman&#64;eku.edu" target="_blank">Dudley.Cornman&#64;eku.edu</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; &gt; The next bearing I was quicker, the thing literally dropped into the seat,
&gt; &gt; perfect. Within 10 seconds it had equalized and was snugly embedded, tight
&gt; &gt; as,
&gt; &gt; well, you know the expression. I like this part.
&gt;
&gt; ... tighter than green on a shamrock?

That'll do.
Wasn't what came to mind though :)

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#35: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-21 17:09:58 by Geoff Glave

&quot;HardWorkingDog&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:harvey-08C3E8.20433220072006&#64;individual.net..." target="_blank">harvey-08C3E8.20433220072006&#64;individual.net...</a>
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:1153448640.184631.83110&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com" target="_blank">1153448640.184631.83110&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; &quot;dsc&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Dudley.Cornman&#64;eku.edu" target="_blank">Dudley.Cornman&#64;eku.edu</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; The next bearing I was quicker, the thing literally dropped into the
&gt;&gt; &gt; seat,
&gt;&gt; &gt; perfect. Within 10 seconds it had equalized and was snugly embedded,
&gt;&gt; &gt; tight
&gt;&gt; &gt; as,
&gt;&gt; &gt; well, you know the expression. I like this part.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ... tighter than green on a shamrock?
&gt;
&gt; That'll do.
&gt; Wasn't what came to mind though :)

A much more pastoral image than

&quot;Tighter that MikeW's sphincter coming around Anderson Ranch
Reservoir&quot;.

Hey Mike, I was working thru the netlist for a test board yesterday
(we lost our technician) and a lot of the nets I was working with were
CJxx and CKxx. I had a lot of trouble with the K not entering from
my keyboard. Are you missing a keyboard? :-)

-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.

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#36: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-23 16:50:07 by Charles Stembridge

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey-0010A2.09144616072006&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">harvey-0010A2.09144616072006&#64;individual.net</a>&gt;,
HardWorkingDog &lt;<a href="mailto:harvey&#64;mush.man" target="_blank">harvey&#64;mush.man</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Dang. I've got parts EVERYWHERE. Found clutch plates broken in several
&gt; places.
&gt; Got to the point where I needed a deep 12 mm socket to remove something
&gt; obscurely named &quot;segment&quot; and called it a night about 10 pm last night. The
&gt; part
&gt; above the segment had 2 little springs, 2 little spring tips, and 2 chunks of
&gt; steel that fell apart as I pulled it off. It doesn't look easy to put it back
&gt; together...something that makes the shifter work.
&gt;
&gt; I spent a couple hours yesterday driving all over to find a rotor holder.
&gt; Finally found some obscure Race Tech tool kicked under the shelf at a cycle
&gt; gear. Bought it, (not sure what Race Tech intended it to be used for) got the
&gt; rotor off ! and then went to take off the clutch basket and hub. Guess what,
&gt; the
&gt; Motion Pro clutch holding tool I've had for probably 3 years also has 8mm
&gt; studs
&gt; designed to hold the rotor...glad cycle gear has a lenient return policy.
&gt;
&gt; Off to get a 12mm deep socket. To be continued.

Update

Main bearings &amp; seals, crank installed.
Cases back together.
Replaced all seals.
Clutch side case installed.
Replated cylinder installed, along with new piston, top bearing and pin.
Reinstalled power valve. (destroyed the little seal on power valve shaft trying
to insert it, luckily I had a spare in my box o' seals).
Engine bolted back in frame.
New clutch plates.
Clutch cover installed.
Stator &amp; rotor installed, checked &amp; set timing. Decided to keep the Race Tech
rotor holder--works much better than the MP.
Reattached radiator hoses, clamped cdi cable.
Since I had everything apart, decided to replace the rear shock upper &amp; lower
bearings.

For today:
Put in coolant &amp; trans oil.
Reattach the chain &amp; sprocket, shift lever, kick start lever.
Replace a few bent spokes in rear wheel.
Put all the body parts back on.
Cross my fingers and kick it to life...

--
Charles
'99 YZ250

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#37: Re: the heart of darkness--splitting the cases

Posted on 2006-07-23 19:23:13 by outofthe

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 15:09:58 GMT, &quot;Jeff Deeney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">nospam&#64;nospam.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; That'll do.
&gt;&gt; Wasn't what came to mind though :)
&gt;
&gt;A much more pastoral image than
&gt;
&gt;&quot;Tighter that MikeW's sphincter coming around Anderson Ranch
&gt;Reservoir&quot;.

Think of me... I spent some time up there thinking of you.

&gt;
&gt;Hey Mike, I was working thru the netlist for a test board yesterday
&gt;(we lost our technician) and a lot of the nets I was working with were
&gt;CJxx and CKxx. I had a lot of trouble with the K not entering from
&gt;my keyboard. Are you missing a keyboard? :-)

Jesus... don't &quot;the tools&quot; do that crap yet? I get $(too much)/d to come in
and draw pictures on napkins to fix up tight critically timed paths. Of
course, having an ME do it should probably be interpreted as hope. Let me
know who I send the brochure too. I'm out of touch with your place since
Pete R retired.

I bought a new keyboard yesterday actually for the new computer in the
kitchen... Gyration. Everyone needs to buy one.

Hey... when you do the curve, stop for a moment and see if you can hear
that moth that sounds like a rattle snake. Kill it for me if you do.
Please.

Mike

&gt;
&gt;-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
&gt;'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
&gt;We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.
&gt;

--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P

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