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#1: CBR running lousy all the sudden

Posted on 2006-07-16 01:19:55 by foo

Gang,

I'm a little lost with these modern bikes, maybe these symptoms will scream
something obvious to you learned folk.

It's a 2001 CBR 929 with 12K miles. About a year and a half ago I garaged
it with a battery tender. (We'd just moved, it needed tires, and all my
time and money was going into a 74 MGB) Two weeks ago I got new tires,
tags, insurance, etc and started commuting on it again and it ran just fine.
Ride quality and gas mileage were just as before for several hundred miles
of highway/suburban commuting. Last weekend I changed the oil, filter
(OEM), and brake fluid. It still ran just the same. Thursday afternoon,
about 150 miles after the oil change and 3/4 way through a fresh tank of
gas, it started missing a little on the highway portion of my commute home.
It gradually got worse, with last few suburban miles very rough It felt as
if it was missing on about half of my cylinders when the engine was under
any load at all -- exactly the way my old twins (Yamaha RD250, Triumph
Bonneville, Moto Guzzi V65) did when the points needed adjusting on one
side.

This weekend I replaced the plugs (point Guzzi on this particular
operation). Two of them were pretty fouled. I also bought a new air
filter, but found out it was broken after getting it home, they won't have
a new one until next week. Well I put it back together and it's still the
same. I wondered about the air cleaner so I took the old one out for a test
and the problem persisted. I went out and topped off the tank (put 3 gal in
a 4 gal tank), but still the same. My thinking now is that it's electrical,
maybe the coils. Those integrated coils on top of the spark plugs look
expensive to change out for a test, I wonder if there's some way to test
them.

Any ideas?

TNX!!,
Dave

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#2: Re: CBR running lousy all the sudden

Posted on 2006-07-16 22:17:27 by foo

FWIW, based on the touch test it's the two outer cylinders that aren't
firing. They seem to pop back in for a second I rev it really high, but
otherwise they're dead. I smell what seems like unburnt fuel when I stop.
I'm working up the gumption to swap the two inner plug coils for the outer
coils to see if they're bad. I did check the resistance of one of the outer
coils (cold, of course) and it was pretty low, about what I expected.

&quot;foo&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:foo&#64;bar.com" target="_blank">foo&#64;bar.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:vKeug.173041$<a href="mailto:F_3.116227&#64;newssvr29.news.prodigy.net..." target="_blank">F_3.116227&#64;newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...</a>
&gt; Gang,
&gt;
&gt; I'm a little lost with these modern bikes, maybe these symptoms will
&gt; scream something obvious to you learned folk.
&gt;
&gt; It's a 2001 CBR 929 with 12K miles. About a year and a half ago I garaged
&gt; it with a battery tender. (We'd just moved, it needed tires, and all my
&gt; time and money was going into a 74 MGB) Two weeks ago I got new tires,
&gt; tags, insurance, etc and started commuting on it again and it ran just
&gt; fine. Ride quality and gas mileage were just as before for several hundred
&gt; miles of highway/suburban commuting. Last weekend I changed the oil,
&gt; filter (OEM), and brake fluid. It still ran just the same. Thursday
&gt; afternoon, about 150 miles after the oil change and 3/4 way through a
&gt; fresh tank of gas, it started missing a little on the highway portion of
&gt; my commute home. It gradually got worse, with last few suburban miles very
&gt; rough It felt as if it was missing on about half of my cylinders when the
&gt; engine was under any load at all -- exactly the way my old twins (Yamaha
&gt; RD250, Triumph Bonneville, Moto Guzzi V65) did when the points needed
&gt; adjusting on one side.
&gt;
&gt; This weekend I replaced the plugs (point Guzzi on this particular
&gt; operation). Two of them were pretty fouled. I also bought a new air
&gt; filter, but found out it was broken after getting it home, they won't
&gt; have a new one until next week. Well I put it back together and it's
&gt; still the same. I wondered about the air cleaner so I took the old one
&gt; out for a test and the problem persisted. I went out and topped off the
&gt; tank (put 3 gal in a 4 gal tank), but still the same. My thinking now is
&gt; that it's electrical, maybe the coils. Those integrated coils on top of
&gt; the spark plugs look expensive to change out for a test, I wonder if
&gt; there's some way to test them.
&gt;
&gt; Any ideas?
&gt;
&gt; TNX!!,
&gt; Dave
&gt;

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#3: Outer 2 Cylinders not firing: was CBR running lousy all the sudden

Posted on 2006-07-17 04:23:13 by foo

I swapped the coil modules collected to the sparkplugs of one central and
one outer cylinder, and still the two outer pipes are cold after running for
a minute. I guess that leaves the electronic ignition module, wire harness,
or injectors. Which are most likely to go bad a few weeks after a long
layup? Ideas???

&quot;foo&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:foo&#64;bar.com" target="_blank">foo&#64;bar.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:r9xug.68399$<a href="mailto:Lm5.7261&#64;newssvr12.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">Lm5.7261&#64;newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt; FWIW, based on the touch test it's the two outer cylinders that aren't
&gt; firing. They seem to pop back in for a second I rev it really high, but
&gt; otherwise they're dead. I smell what seems like unburnt fuel when I stop.
&gt; I'm working up the gumption to swap the two inner plug coils for the outer
&gt; coils to see if they're bad. I did check the resistance of one of the
&gt; outer coils (cold, of course) and it was pretty low, about what I
&gt; expected.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;foo&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:foo&#64;bar.com" target="_blank">foo&#64;bar.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:vKeug.173041$<a href="mailto:F_3.116227&#64;newssvr29.news.prodigy.net..." target="_blank">F_3.116227&#64;newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Gang,
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I'm a little lost with these modern bikes, maybe these symptoms will
&gt;&gt; scream something obvious to you learned folk.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; It's a 2001 CBR 929 with 12K miles. About a year and a half ago I
&gt;&gt; garaged it with a battery tender. (We'd just moved, it needed tires, and
&gt;&gt; all my time and money was going into a 74 MGB) Two weeks ago I got new
&gt;&gt; tires, tags, insurance, etc and started commuting on it again and it ran
&gt;&gt; just fine. Ride quality and gas mileage were just as before for several
&gt;&gt; hundred miles of highway/suburban commuting. Last weekend I changed the
&gt;&gt; oil, filter (OEM), and brake fluid. It still ran just the same.
&gt;&gt; Thursday afternoon, about 150 miles after the oil change and 3/4 way
&gt;&gt; through a fresh tank of gas, it started missing a little on the highway
&gt;&gt; portion of my commute home. It gradually got worse, with last few
&gt;&gt; suburban miles very rough It felt as if it was missing on about half of
&gt;&gt; my cylinders when the engine was under any load at all -- exactly the way
&gt;&gt; my old twins (Yamaha RD250, Triumph Bonneville, Moto Guzzi V65) did when
&gt;&gt; the points needed adjusting on one side.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; This weekend I replaced the plugs (point Guzzi on this particular
&gt;&gt; operation). Two of them were pretty fouled. I also bought a new air
&gt;&gt; filter, but found out it was broken after getting it home, they won't
&gt;&gt; have a new one until next week. Well I put it back together and it's
&gt;&gt; still the same. I wondered about the air cleaner so I took the old one
&gt;&gt; out for a test and the problem persisted. I went out and topped off the
&gt;&gt; tank (put 3 gal in a 4 gal tank), but still the same. My thinking now is
&gt;&gt; that it's electrical, maybe the coils. Those integrated coils on top of
&gt;&gt; the spark plugs look expensive to change out for a test, I wonder if
&gt;&gt; there's some way to test them.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Any ideas?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; TNX!!,
&gt;&gt; Dave
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

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#4: Re: Outer 2 Cylinders not firing: was CBR running lousy all the sudden

Posted on 2006-07-17 04:54:14 by bp

foo &lt;<a href="mailto:foo&#64;bar.com" target="_blank">foo&#64;bar.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Any ideas?
&gt;&gt;&gt;

Have you checked the device which triggers the ignition? I'm not
at all familiar with your bike, but the symmetry in the non-firing
cylinders suggests that maybe the device which times those sparks
is at fault. I'll admit it's a very long shot, but you said &quot;any&quot;.

8-)

Good luck,

bob prohaska

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#5: Re: Outer 2 Cylinders not firing: was CBR running lousy all the sudden

Posted on 2006-07-17 05:21:54 by Mark Olson

bob prohaska's usenet account wrote:
&gt; foo &lt;<a href="mailto:foo&#64;bar.com" target="_blank">foo&#64;bar.com</a>&gt; wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Any ideas?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Have you checked the device which triggers the ignition? I'm not
&gt; at all familiar with your bike, but the symmetry in the non-firing
&gt; cylinders suggests that maybe the device which times those sparks
&gt; is at fault. I'll admit it's a very long shot, but you said &quot;any&quot;.

There's a single pickup and a 'star' ignition trigger wheel. So
it's unlikely to be the pickup as it wouldn't affect just 1 &amp; 4.

The PGM-FI (ignition amplifier that picks up the trigger pulses and
drives the coil packs) unit appears to have two identical connectors.
I suspect that one connector drives coils packs 1&amp;4 and the other
connector drives 2&amp;3. If the connectors are identical, I'd be
tempted to see if I could swap the wiring harness connectors going
into it and see if 1&amp;4 start firing and 2&amp;3 go dead. WARNING- if
you try this and fry your ignition unit, don't blame me! It also
may not work because the two halves of the PGM-FI are not simply
duplicates but dedicated, timing-wise, because of the single
ignition pickup.

--
'01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13 '81 CM400T
OMF #7

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#6: Re: Outer 2 Cylinders not firing: was CBR running lousy all the sudden

Posted on 2006-07-17 06:45:04 by Binder Dundat

foo wrote:
&gt; I swapped the coil modules collected to the sparkplugs of one central and
&gt; one outer cylinder, and still the two outer pipes are cold after running for
&gt; a minute. I guess that leaves the electronic ignition module, wire harness,
&gt; or injectors. Which are most likely to go bad a few weeks after a long
&gt; layup? Ideas???

Maybe the ECU is confused and the RPM limiter function is keeping two
coils from firing?

Everytime you turn the ignition key on, the chip inside the ECU
probably runs through some routines, but disconnecting and reconnecting
the battery might cause the whole
fuel injection system to reboot, just like your computer when it
momentarily loses power.

What happens if you disconnect the battery, leave it disconnected for,
say, half an hour, then re-connect the battery?

Are there any warnings in the owners manual (or on the ECU itself)
about safety precautions to be taken when connecting and disconnecting
the battery?

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#7: Re: Outer 2 Cylinders not firing

Posted on 2006-07-18 05:31:25 by foo

&quot;FB&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:flying_booger&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">flying_booger&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153111504.051641.230270&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153111504.051641.230270&#64;75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; foo wrote:
&gt;&gt; I swapped the coil modules collected to the sparkplugs of one central and
&gt;&gt; one outer cylinder, and still the two outer pipes are cold after running
&gt;&gt; for
&gt;&gt; a minute. I guess that leaves the electronic ignition module, wire
&gt;&gt; harness,
&gt;&gt; or injectors. Which are most likely to go bad a few weeks after a long
&gt;&gt; layup? Ideas???
&gt;
&gt; Maybe the ECU is confused and the RPM limiter function is keeping two
&gt; coils from firing?
&gt;

I think the spark is OK: I swapped the coil from a working center plug to
one of the outer wires, connected a plug outside clamped to the frame, and
hit the starter. The spark looks strong, even using one of the old gummed
up plugs. Then I tore in deeper and swapped one of the injectors from a
center cylinder with the injector from one of the outer cylinders. There
was no change, the center pipes still got hot after a few seconds but the
outer pipes were relatively cool.

&gt; Everytime you turn the ignition key on, the chip inside the ECU
&gt; probably runs through some routines, but disconnecting and reconnecting
&gt; the battery might cause the whole
&gt; fuel injection system to reboot, just like your computer when it
&gt; momentarily loses power.
&gt;
&gt; What happens if you disconnect the battery, leave it disconnected for,
&gt; say, half an hour, then re-connect the battery?
&gt;

I did disconnect it for a few minutes, and all that happened was the clock
reset.

&gt; Are there any warnings in the owners manual (or on the ECU itself)
&gt; about safety precautions to be taken when connecting and disconnecting
&gt; the battery?
&gt;

I just scanned the manual and don't see anything specific like that. I've
heard in general that you have to watch yourself jumping the engine, but I
was just driving down the highway half way through a 40 minute commute when
the trouble started. FWIW, it was really hot, over 100 dgrees. I was
watching the guage temperature though, and it didn't look particularly high
(maybe 215 or so).

If I open the throttle and look down the intake throats while cranking the
starter, I see a bunch of fog around the outer cylinder intakes before the
engine catches and I have to cut the throttle. I guess that means it's
getting at least some fuel but just not igniting for some reason. I was
hoping to see visible squirting to see if the center squirts were stronger
than the outside ones, but I can't really see anything like a liquid squirt
on any cylinders (I'm not familiar with fuel injection, so didn't know what
to expect) If I idle the engine, all four intakes seem to have similar
suction on my hands when the engine is running. I have a compression meter,
but not an adaptor for these small diameter plugs.

If I disconnect the inner plug wires and nurse the throttle, I can get the
engine started with just the outer cylinders hooked up. I have to use a lot
more throttle, though, compared with idling with the inner cylinders only
hooked up which ticks along with no throttle turn at all.

Tomorrow I'll check the valve clearances and maybe try to find a way to test
compression. I seem to have at least some fuel and at least some spark, so
there's not much left.

I also noticed that the red dash light would flash nine shorts just after I
turn on the key. I don't have a decoder ring. I don't remember seeing the
flashes before tonight, so it's probably just related to the fact that I
have the airbox opened up at the moment.

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#8: Re: Outer 2 Cylinders not firing

Posted on 2006-07-18 20:18:45 by Binder Dundat

foo wrote:

&gt; I think the spark is OK: I swapped the coil from a working center plug to
&gt; one of the outer wires, connected a plug outside clamped to the frame, and
&gt; hit the starter. The spark looks strong, even using one of the old gummed
&gt; up plugs.

Usually spark plugs are good for at least 8K miles between changes, but
you just might have run into two bad spark plugs at once. They seem to
short out internally and they internally dissipate the voltage that
should jump the gap. They work OK in free air, but the compression
pressure inside the cylinder is too much for them.

So, you might try buying at least one new spark plug to see if that
helps.
reset.

&gt; I just scanned the manual and don't see anything specific like that. I've
&gt; heard in general that you have to watch yourself jumping the engine, but I
&gt; was just driving down the highway half way through a 40 minute commute when
&gt; the trouble started. FWIW, it was really hot, over 100 dgrees. I was
&gt; watching the guage temperature though, and it didn't look particularly high
&gt; (maybe 215 or so).

The fan on my FZR-1000 comes on at 205 degrees F; 100 degrees C is, of
course, 212 F and modern engines do run as hot as 240 degrees to burn
clean.

&gt;
&gt; If I disconnect the inner plug wires and nurse the throttle, I can get the
&gt; engine started with just the outer cylinders hooked up. I have to use a lot
&gt; more throttle, though, compared with idling with the inner cylinders only
&gt; hooked up which ticks along with no throttle turn at all.

Does your engine have a circuit that retards the ignition timing when
the transmission is in first gear? Maybe you might disconnect the plug
that comes from the neutral switch and see if that helps.

&gt; I also noticed that the red dash light would flash nine shorts just after I
&gt; turn on the key. I don't have a decoder ring. I don't remember seeing the
&gt; flashes before tonight, so it's probably just related to the fact that I
&gt; have the airbox opened up at the moment.

I suppose the trouble codes are in the factory shop manual.

Typically, a fuel injection system allows the engine to start in &quot;open
loop&quot; mode, ignoring the signals sent from such things as oxygen
sensors and temperature sensors. Like my pickup truck has a
thermal-time switch that sends a signal to the ECU to switch over to
closed loop operation and use the O2 sensor to determine idle mixture
richness.

The truck has a solenoid that controls idle mixture, but it began
screwing up and making the idle mixture run too lean. So I disconnected
the thermal-time switch and the O2 sensor to make the FI system run
&quot;open loop&quot;. Someday I will buy a new
$300 electronic carburetor...

And, when the O2 sensor in my car failed, the ECU wouldn't allow the
mixture to richen for power. Crazy thing about that was that the engine
couldn't properly burn the lean mixture it was getting at idle, so it
kicked out excess hydrocarbons and the car failed its smog test.

I had to go to three different &quot;Don't Pass--Don't Pay&quot; smog stations
before a mechanic was nice enough to to tell that the O2 sensor would
cause that problem.

One criminal $ervice writer in a larger $tealer$hip told me that
flu$hing my radiator and replacing the antifreeze would help the engine
pa$$ the $mog te$t.

It's possible that a sensor may have screwed up, and you might try
disconnecting as many sensors as possible and seeing which one affects
cold operation after start up.

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#9: Re: Outer 2 Cylinders not firing

Posted on 2006-07-19 05:41:11 by foo

Thanks for all the good suggestions. At the risk of jinxing it, I think I
found the problem: the fuel pressure regulator. I ran across a few
discussions about similar symptoms, especially cool headers on the outer
cylinders:
<a href="http://www.fireblades.org/forums/honda-fireblade/46125-honda-cbr-929-fouling-plugs.html" target="_blank"> http://www.fireblades.org/forums/honda-fireblade/46125-honda -cbr-929-fouling-plugs.html</a>
and
<a href="http://www.fireblades.org/forums/honda-fireblade/47747-2000-honda-929-fuel-probs.html" target="_blank"> http://www.fireblades.org/forums/honda-fireblade/47747-2000- honda-929-fuel-probs.html</a>
caused by a cracked diaphram in the fuel pressure regulator. It looks as
though the regulator takes vacuum from two points near the outer cylinder
intake manifolds. When fuel leaks through the regulator to the vacuum lines
it makes the end cylinders very rich (and cool, even if they do burn some).
I only had a few minutes to look at it this evening, but I did unhook the
vacuum line from the regulator and fuel poured out. I'll try pinching the
vacuum lines tomorrow and see how it runs.

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