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#1: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-15 13:00:49 by Eric Baber

Hi,

The air conditioning on my 1991 Eunos Roadster has stopped working, most
likely because the refrigerant needs charging up. I took it into a KwikFit
(only place around here that would do anything at all with a/c); they had a
bit of a look around and announced that the refrigerant needed was an old
kind which is now illegal in the UK. I've had a bit of a Google search and
it does seem that some older types of refrigerants contained CFCs and are
therefore no longer allowed; does anyone know whether the a/c in the 1991
Roadster does indeed use a refrigerant which is now illegal in the UK?
Alternatively, if this is nonsense, does anyone know of a shop in the
Cambridge, UK area that can recharge my a/c unit?

Thanks

Eric

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#2: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-15 17:53:20 by XS11E

&quot;Eric Baber&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com" target="_blank">eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com</a>&gt; wrote in
news:<a href="mailto:4hs0grF119h4U1&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">4hs0grF119h4U1&#64;individual.net</a>:

&gt; The air conditioning on my 1991 Eunos Roadster has stopped
&gt; working, most likely because the refrigerant needs charging up. I
&gt; took it into a KwikFit (only place around here that would do
&gt; anything at all with a/c); they had a bit of a look around and
&gt; announced that the refrigerant needed was an old kind which is now
&gt; illegal in the UK. I've had a bit of a Google search and it does
&gt; seem that some older types of refrigerants contained CFCs and are
&gt; therefore no longer allowed; does anyone know whether the a/c in
&gt; the 1991 Roadster does indeed use a refrigerant which is now
&gt; illegal in the UK? Alternatively, if this is nonsense, does anyone
&gt; know of a shop in the Cambridge, UK area that can recharge my a/c
&gt; unit?

A 1991 will use the banned refrigerant (R12), it can be converted to
use the later type of refrigerant (134a) by replacing all the oil in
the system since the oil in your system isn't compatible with the later
refrigerant. Removing and replacing the oil almost certainly requires
replacement of the compressor and the receiver/drier (or accumulator,
if that's what Mazda uses) along with maybe a couple of other minor
parts which is costly. There might be a very slight reduction in
cooling with the later refrigerant but it probably won't be noticeable.

Oh, the fittings for charging the system may also require replacement
as 134a uses different ones. A knowledgeable mechanic will be able to
get around that problem, though...

If you want air conditioning you really have no choice unless you can
find a shop that does have a stock of R12. I don't know the law there
but here if a shop has it they are allowed to use it, the ban is on
manufacturing the stuff AFAIK.

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#3: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-15 21:25:28 by BK

I had my '90 converted a couple of years ago...they didn't have to replace
any major parts such as the compressor and/or dryer...just some fittings and
the oil. I can't tell any difference in the cold air it puts out vs. what
the R12 did. I'm completely happy with the conversion.
&quot;XS11E&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:xs11eNO&#64;SPAMyahoo.com" target="_blank">xs11eNO&#64;SPAMyahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:Xns98015A6CAB5E9xs11eyahoocom&#64;70.168.83.30..." target="_blank">Xns98015A6CAB5E9xs11eyahoocom&#64;70.168.83.30...</a>
&gt; &quot;Eric Baber&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com" target="_blank">eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com</a>&gt; wrote in
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:4hs0grF119h4U1&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">4hs0grF119h4U1&#64;individual.net</a>:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; The air conditioning on my 1991 Eunos Roadster has stopped
&gt;&gt; working, most likely because the refrigerant needs charging up. I
&gt;&gt; took it into a KwikFit (only place around here that would do
&gt;&gt; anything at all with a/c); they had a bit of a look around and
&gt;&gt; announced that the refrigerant needed was an old kind which is now
&gt;&gt; illegal in the UK. I've had a bit of a Google search and it does
&gt;&gt; seem that some older types of refrigerants contained CFCs and are
&gt;&gt; therefore no longer allowed; does anyone know whether the a/c in
&gt;&gt; the 1991 Roadster does indeed use a refrigerant which is now
&gt;&gt; illegal in the UK? Alternatively, if this is nonsense, does anyone
&gt;&gt; know of a shop in the Cambridge, UK area that can recharge my a/c
&gt;&gt; unit?
&gt;
&gt; A 1991 will use the banned refrigerant (R12), it can be converted to
&gt; use the later type of refrigerant (134a) by replacing all the oil in
&gt; the system since the oil in your system isn't compatible with the later
&gt; refrigerant. Removing and replacing the oil almost certainly requires
&gt; replacement of the compressor and the receiver/drier (or accumulator,
&gt; if that's what Mazda uses) along with maybe a couple of other minor
&gt; parts which is costly. There might be a very slight reduction in
&gt; cooling with the later refrigerant but it probably won't be noticeable.
&gt;
&gt; Oh, the fittings for charging the system may also require replacement
&gt; as 134a uses different ones. A knowledgeable mechanic will be able to
&gt; get around that problem, though...
&gt;
&gt; If you want air conditioning you really have no choice unless you can
&gt; find a shop that does have a stock of R12. I don't know the law there
&gt; but here if a shop has it they are allowed to use it, the ban is on
&gt; manufacturing the stuff AFAIK.
&gt;

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#4: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-16 04:15:08 by Chuck

You will also pay a large fortune for R12 if you can find it.

&quot;XS11E&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:xs11eNO&#64;SPAMyahoo.com" target="_blank">xs11eNO&#64;SPAMyahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:Xns98015A6CAB5E9xs11eyahoocom&#64;70.168.83.30..." target="_blank">Xns98015A6CAB5E9xs11eyahoocom&#64;70.168.83.30...</a>
&gt; &quot;Eric Baber&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com" target="_blank">eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com</a>&gt; wrote in
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:4hs0grF119h4U1&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">4hs0grF119h4U1&#64;individual.net</a>:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; The air conditioning on my 1991 Eunos Roadster has stopped
&gt; &gt; working, most likely because the refrigerant needs charging up. I
&gt; &gt; took it into a KwikFit (only place around here that would do
&gt; &gt; anything at all with a/c); they had a bit of a look around and
&gt; &gt; announced that the refrigerant needed was an old kind which is now
&gt; &gt; illegal in the UK. I've had a bit of a Google search and it does
&gt; &gt; seem that some older types of refrigerants contained CFCs and are
&gt; &gt; therefore no longer allowed; does anyone know whether the a/c in
&gt; &gt; the 1991 Roadster does indeed use a refrigerant which is now
&gt; &gt; illegal in the UK? Alternatively, if this is nonsense, does anyone
&gt; &gt; know of a shop in the Cambridge, UK area that can recharge my a/c
&gt; &gt; unit?
&gt;
&gt; A 1991 will use the banned refrigerant (R12), it can be converted to
&gt; use the later type of refrigerant (134a) by replacing all the oil in
&gt; the system since the oil in your system isn't compatible with the later
&gt; refrigerant. Removing and replacing the oil almost certainly requires
&gt; replacement of the compressor and the receiver/drier (or accumulator,
&gt; if that's what Mazda uses) along with maybe a couple of other minor
&gt; parts which is costly. There might be a very slight reduction in
&gt; cooling with the later refrigerant but it probably won't be noticeable.
&gt;
&gt; Oh, the fittings for charging the system may also require replacement
&gt; as 134a uses different ones. A knowledgeable mechanic will be able to
&gt; get around that problem, though...
&gt;
&gt; If you want air conditioning you really have no choice unless you can
&gt; find a shop that does have a stock of R12. I don't know the law there
&gt; but here if a shop has it they are allowed to use it, the ban is on
&gt; manufacturing the stuff AFAIK.
&gt;

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#5: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-17 13:16:03 by marc

If anyone here is from Raleigh, NC.

I know a shop that will recharge R12. Yes it is expensive, but IMO my
'93 Ranger with R12 is colder than my wife's 2004 Toyota R134A.

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#6: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-17 13:20:14 by Eric Baber

Thanks for the information, anyone. Looks like I'll be putting my a/c out to
farm; it's not really worth converting it to the new refrigerant.

Thanks

Eric

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#7: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-17 14:31:12 by Eric Baber

&gt; Thanks for the information, anyone.

&quot;Everyone&quot;, even.

Eric

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#8: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-17 15:14:40 by Eric Baber

Update: I've just phoned a few companies and have found one that uses a
&quot;drop in&quot; refrigerant, RS-24
(<a href="http://www.car-air-conditioning-supplies.com/carshop/product.php?productid=80&amp;cat=0&amp;page=1" target="_blank"> http://www.car-air-conditioning-supplies.com/carshop/product .php?productid=80&amp;cat=0&amp;page=1</a>
- that's not the company offering to do the recharging, but I assume that's
the same stuff). It supposedly works in R12 units without needing to convert
anything else, and is affordable (UK£65 for a recharge, about US$100). Has
anyone tried this and is it any good?

By the way, I've found various websites that confirm what BK said, that only
various fittings and the oil need to be changed when converting a system
from R12 to R134a, but I've yet to find anywhere here that will actually do
any kind of conversion so at the moment the RS-24 looks attractive if it's
likely to be ok.

Eric

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#9: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-17 20:40:16 by XS11E

&quot;Eric Baber&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com" target="_blank">eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com</a>&gt; wrote in
news:<a href="mailto:4i1gq0F1l7q4U1&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">4i1gq0F1l7q4U1&#64;individual.net</a>:

&gt; Update: I've just phoned a few companies and have found one that
&gt; uses a &quot;drop in&quot; refrigerant, RS-24
&gt; (<a href="http://www.car-air-conditioning-supplies.com/carshop/product.php?p" target="_blank"> http://www.car-air-conditioning-supplies.com/carshop/product .php?p</a>
&gt; roductid=80&amp;cat=0&amp;page=1
&gt; - that's not the company offering to do the recharging, but I
&gt; assume that's
&gt; the same stuff). It supposedly works in R12 units without needing
&gt; to convert anything else, and is affordable (UK£65 for a recharge,
&gt; about US$100). Has anyone tried this and is it any good?

I don't know anyone who's tried it, let us know if it works!

&gt; By the way, I've found various websites that confirm what BK said,
&gt; that only various fittings and the oil need to be changed when
&gt; converting a system from R12 to R134a,

Correct but misleading. It's pretty much impossible to remove the oil
from the receiver/drier, it needs to be replaced. The compressor can
be drained but that almost always requires that it be removed. If you
try and convert w/o removing *all* the old oil you'll have some
problems a couple of years down the road with leaking seals, etc.

As for the fittings, they don't need to be changed IF you have a
reasonably savvy AC guy, he can use a gauge set with hoses that will
fit the old fittings to charge with R134a.

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#10: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-18 10:22:48 by Eric Baber

&gt;&gt; Update: I've just phoned a few companies and have found one that
&gt;&gt; uses a &quot;drop in&quot; refrigerant, RS-24
&gt;&gt; (<a href="http://www.car-air-conditioning-supplies.com/carshop/product.php?p" target="_blank"> http://www.car-air-conditioning-supplies.com/carshop/product .php?p</a>
&gt;&gt; roductid=80&amp;cat=0&amp;page=1
&gt;&gt; - that's not the company offering to do the recharging, but I
&gt;&gt; assume that's
&gt;&gt; the same stuff). It supposedly works in R12 units without needing
&gt;&gt; to convert anything else, and is affordable (UK£65 for a recharge,
&gt;&gt; about US$100). Has anyone tried this and is it any good?
&gt;
&gt; I don't know anyone who's tried it, let us know if it works!

Will do. I did some more research on the net and found various companies in
the UK that offer a recharging service with RS-24 for old R12 units, and one
forum on which someone said they'd had it done and were happy with it, so it
appears to be legit. I've booked the local guy for tomorrow to do the
recharge so will let you know how it goes. Supposedly using anything but the
manufacturer's recommended materials, i.e. R12, will invalidate any
component or manufacturer's warranties, but given that only cars built
before 1992 or so will be using R12 I'd say this is an academic argument.

In case anyone is interested, some good references/examples I found are

<a href="http://www.refsols.com/RS-24_p1.html" target="_blank">http://www.refsols.com/RS-24_p1.html</a>
<a href="http://www.eurocarparts.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6076" target="_blank">http://www.eurocarparts.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6076</a>

I'm surprised nobody here has used this - is RS-24 not available in the US
then? Apparently it also goes under the name R426a - does that ring any
bells?

Eric

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#11: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-19 11:33:28 by Eric Baber

Right, the guy has just been and gone and has recharged my Roadster's a/c
with RS-24 refrigerant. The process was as described at
<a href="http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/acrecharge.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/acrecharge.htm</a> (checking the system for leaks,
creating a vacuum in it to get rid of any moisture, adding oil and dye to be
able to check for any slow leaks, vacuuming again, filling up with RS-24)
and it's now nice and cold again. I can't really compare it properly to what
is used to be like since I never took a temperature reading when the R12 was
still in it but it certainly feels properly cold. It cost UK£65 for the
whole thing including him coming here to my house to do it so I'm happy!

Eric

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#12: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-19 15:27:25 by XS11E

&quot;Eric Baber&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com" target="_blank">eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com</a>&gt; wrote in
news:<a href="mailto:4i6cj6F2cibgU1&#64;individual.net" target="_blank">4i6cj6F2cibgU1&#64;individual.net</a>:

&gt; Right, the guy has just been and gone and has recharged my
&gt; Roadster's a/c with RS-24 refrigerant. The process was as
&gt; described at <a href="http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/acrecharge.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/acrecharge.htm</a> (checking
&gt; the system for leaks, creating a vacuum in it to get rid of any
&gt; moisture, adding oil and dye to be able to check for any slow
&gt; leaks, vacuuming again, filling up with RS-24) and it's now nice
&gt; and cold again. I can't really compare it properly to what is used
&gt; to be like since I never took a temperature reading when the R12
&gt; was still in it but it certainly feels properly cold. It cost
&gt; UK£65 for the whole thing including him coming here to my house to
&gt; do it so I'm happy!

Great, glad it works. It's nice to know there is a replacement for
R12.

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#13: Re: A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster

Posted on 2006-07-20 16:29:52 by Jeroen Feelders

Eric, please keep up posted on your experiences with the new fluid. Although
1 or 2 airco-shops in the Netherlands still recharge with R12 it is always
good to know what's new...
As a commissioner of the Technical Committee of the MX-5 Club of the
Netherlands I can give feedback to our members regarding this subject.

Jeroen Feelders
MX-5 Club of the Netherlands
<a href="http://www.mx5club.nl" target="_blank">http://www.mx5club.nl</a>


&quot;Eric Baber&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com" target="_blank">eric&#64;netlearnlanguages.com</a>&gt; schreef in bericht
news:<a href="mailto:4i6cj6F2cibgU1&#64;individual.net..." target="_blank">4i6cj6F2cibgU1&#64;individual.net...</a>
| Right, the guy has just been and gone and has recharged my Roadster's a/c
| with RS-24 refrigerant. The process was as described at
| <a href="http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/acrecharge.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/acrecharge.htm</a> (checking the system for
leaks,
| creating a vacuum in it to get rid of any moisture, adding oil and dye to
be
| able to check for any slow leaks, vacuuming again, filling up with RS-24)
| and it's now nice and cold again. I can't really compare it properly to
what
| is used to be like since I never took a temperature reading when the R12
was
| still in it but it certainly feels properly cold. It cost UK£65 for the
| whole thing including him coming here to my house to do it so I'm happy!
|
| Eric
|
|

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