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#1: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 16:05:36 by gcmccoury

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July 16, 2006

By Micheline Maynard
New York Times
Dearborn, Mich.

A fish tank as big as a flat-screen television dominates one wall of =
Bill Ford's office. Tulips, tired and randomly arranged, droop from =
vases on nearby tables. A jumble of orchids and tropical plants compete =
for space behind his desk, and a closet has a hidden espresso machine =
where Mr. Ford, the Ford Motor Company's chief executive, retreats =
several times a day to brew high-octane shots.

If Mr. Ford's office smacks of an overgrown boomer's pad, nearly =
everything else around it offers a corporate version of Miss Havisham - =
from the automotive giant's headquarters, built in 1956 and known =
locally as the Glass House, to the hallways dotted with stylized =
black-and-white photographs from the company's glory days decades ago.=20

In the executive dining room, the last of its kind at Detroit's big =
automakers, waitresses take orders from a multicourse menu and bring =
silver finger bowls between the main course and dessert. Many of the =
Glass House's walls, as well as the wood-paneled and softly lit lobby of =
the company's design center, feature portraits of Mr. Ford's ancestors, =
like his legendary great-grandfather Henry Ford, his grandfather Edsel =
Ford and his father, William Clay Ford Sr.

The answer to whether Mr. Ford's portrait will hang among them one day, =
and whether there will eventually even be a headquarters where such =
portraits can hang, now rests in his hands. He could either be the Ford =
that resurrects one of the biggest companies on earth, or perhaps become =
the last Ford to run it. Few are more aware of this than Mr. Ford =
himself, who, at 49, holds a daunting trio of jobs, as chairman, chief =
executive and, since earlier this month, chair of its executive =
operating committee, making him Ford's de facto chief operating officer, =
too.

"There's nobody that has more at stake in this company than I do," he =
said in a recent interview here. "Not just financially, but emotionally, =
and historically and everything else."

Mr. Ford's challenges are extraordinary. His company reported losses of =
$1.6 billion in North America last year and lost $1.2 billion worldwide =
in the first quarter this year. On Thursday, Ford halved its quarterly =
dividend to a nickel to preserve cash, and analysts expect the company =
to report tepid second-quarter earnings this week. Many are already =
forecasting a third-quarter loss. With analysts speculating that the =
dividend cut means that Ford's fortunes are worsening, Mr. Ford issued a =
statement noting that "the headwinds we faced at the beginning of 2006 =
have only become stronger."=20

As Mr. Ford tries to stem a slide that has taken his company from 25 =
percent of the American market in 2000 to about 18 percent now, he must =
preserve his family's legacy, fight off Asian automakers' ferocious =
assault on Detroit and somehow realize his ambition, as yet unfulfilled, =
to make Ford the environmental leader among American auto companies.

A casual and ebullient man, Mr. Ford personally owns 6.3 million Ford =
shares, making him the company's largest individual holder. The extended =
Ford family as a whole, which reasserted itself five years ago when it =
led the ouster of Jacques Nasser as chief executive and replaced him =
with Mr. Ford, owns 40 percent of the company's super-voting shares. =
Ever since Mr. Ford assumed Mr. Nasser's mantle, there have been doubts, =
some only thinly veiled, among analysts, investors and employees that he =
has the chops for the job.=20

When he started, his widely held image was that of a reluctant executive =
who would rather be practicing yoga, fly fishing or traveling somewhere =
with his wife and four children than be corralled in his corner office. =
Now, as he juggles an even more burdensome troika of job titles and =
responsibilities, Mr. Ford says he is energized in a way that he was not =
during his first years as chief executive.=20

"I'm just a lot more comfortable in this job," he said. "I mean, you =
know, to use a clich=E9, I think I've really grown in this job; but I =
think it's also because my instincts were right."

BUT while Mr. Ford has partially streamlined Ford's bureaucracy and =
become its public face during his tenure, some of his instincts have not =
born fruit. A devoted environmentalist, he still bowed early on to the =
wishes of Ford's entrenched middle managers and senior executives who =
wanted the company to keep churning out very profitable but gas-guzzling =
sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks during a period when oil prices =
were dirt cheap.=20

Had Mr. Ford produced more fuel-efficient vehicles like hybrids sooner, =
he not only would have found his company keeping pace with nimble =
foreign competitors like Toyota when oil prices spiked, but he also =
would have been able to illustrate the bottom-line merit of his =
environmental values. Instead, Ford, is again in the all-too-familiar =
spot of playing corporate catch-up.

As the entire American auto industry comes to grips with challenges that =
threaten to permanently eclipse its dominance at home and abroad, and as =
uncertainties about Ford's future stir anxieties within his family, Mr. =
Ford asserts that he and his company are responding to the monumental =
shifts that are shaking the foundations of his business.

"The world has played out like I thought it would, and it's given me not =
only a renewed sense of confidence but one of urgency," he said. "The =
question is, what are we changing into and how fast can we get there?"

Not fast enough, say some. The stark reality, which Ford as well as =
General Motors need to accept, analysts say, is that the companies' =
fates now hang in the balance.=20

"Both these companies could fail," said John Casesa, a veteran auto =
industry analyst who runs his own consulting firm. "That's how =
fundamental the problems are in Detroit."

A few miles east of Mr. Ford's office, dozens of visitors from as far =
away as Australia line up each day to tour Ford's newest assembly plant =
inside the sprawling River Rouge complex, whose largely vacant buildings =
once ranked among the biggest industrial centers in the world. They =
start their tour at the plant, which opened two years ago, by watching a =
film that depicts the life of Henry Ford and the activities of =
succeeding generations of Fords.

They can look out at 1,500 trees surrounding the complex or learn that =
the new plant's roof, covered with tough, bushy sedum, is part of Mr. =
Ford's goal of building a "green" factory, one that will help restore =
the environment rather than pollute the surrounding skies with filthy =
smoke as the Rouge complex once did. On an ideal day, tourists also can =
watch Ford workers building the big F-Series pickup truck, the country's =
best-selling vehicle for almost 30 years running, and the indisputable =
gusher in Ford's revenue stream.

Sometimes, though, tourists go home without seeing any trucks glide down =
the assembly line, idled occasionally because it makes no sense to ship =
vehicles that dealers cannot sell. Even so, Mr. Ford considers the new =
plant as one of his most important victories over company executives who =
argued that it was an expensive folly.=20

Completing the plant "validated" him, Mr. Ford said. "I got very little =
support," he recalled, "and yet I said: 'We're going to do it. We're =
just going to do it.' "

Mr. Ford will need that firmness of mind if he intends to preserve three =
things he says are of paramount importance to him at Ford: the company =
itself, his family's legacy and a clean environmental record. He has =
foregone a salary over the last year and said he intended to keep it =
that way until he successfully revived Ford's fortunes.

The family's financial stake in Ford, including nonvoting common stock =
and a more powerful and separate class of voting shares, is currently =
worth approximately $460 million, down almost half since Ford celebrated =
its 100th corporate birthday three years ago; Mr. Ford's personal stake =
is worth about $43 million. A combination of financial self-interest and =
a prized familial legacy makes Mr. Ford's tasks more personally =
imperative than they might typically be at other public companies in =
need of a turnaround - like G.M., for example, whose headquarters Mr. =
Ford can spy from his office on a clear day.

As Mr. Ford watches G.M. entertain a potentially historic alliance with =
a French automaker, Renault, and a Japanese automaker, Nissan, he says =
he will not rule out a similar path for his company, which already has =
management control of another Japanese auto company, Mazda. But Mr. Ford =
said he had more pressing concerns. "Regardless of any deal that we =
might envision," he said, "the fact is that we have to fix our North =
American business."=20

The company's North American operation is hamstrung by lackluster =
product lines, heavy losses that have delayed new vehicle development =
and, until recently, constant executive turnover that forced underlings =
to wait until new bosses came on board. Mr. Ford has to tackle all of =
these problems while overseeing a potentially backbreaking combination =
of jobs.

"It defies my imagination how he can get through a day with the proper =
amount of attention to each position," said Michael Useem, a management =
professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. "If =
he can, more power to him."

MR. FORD said his biggest challenge is time management, as well as a =
constant switching of corporate roles. In one moment, he occupies Ford's =
conceptual role as chairman; in the next, a strategic role as chief =
executive; and in the next, the nitty-gritty management role of =
overseeing daily operations. "I can't delegate to anybody," he said.

Why take all of that on? Because controlling those jobs is how Mr. Ford =
believes that he can get his own way inside an unyielding corporate =
bureaucracy - something that he says has not occurred earlier despite =
his name and apparent clout. Mr. Ford bluntly contends that managers =
stymied him, as both chairman and chief executive, by getting in the way =
of projects like the Rouge plant and a hybrid version of the Ford =
Escape, a small sport utility vehicle

The Escape Hybrid, which Ford began developing in 1998 in response to =
Toyota's hybrid plans, languished for nearly six years before reaching =
the market. Even then, Mr. Ford said, he had to fight with marketing =
officials who argued that there was no point spending much money on a =
vehicle that generated sales of only 20,000 units a year, despite its =
symbolism as the first hybrid from a Detroit car company.

Mr. Ford contends that projects like the hybrid Escape will move more =
swiftly with his own handpicked team members in place, the most crucial =
of whom is his new chief of staff, Steven K. Hamp, his closest friend, =
brother-in-law and determined gatekeeper. "He has probably voiced every =
frustration you can imagine to me with respect to this company," said =
Mr. Hamp, who previously ran the world-famous Henry Ford Museum and is =
married to Mr. Ford's sister, Sheila.

Associates say Mr. Ford endured years of condescending behavior by =
subordinates who considered his wealth and interest in social causes no =
match for the years they had toiled in the company's trenches, even =
though Mr. Ford himself spent more than 20 years in a variety of =
lower-level jobs. They also say that other executives, who spent as much =
time managing their careers as they did managing the company, saw Mr. =
Ford as a roadblock to the top and tried to undermine him. Yet, others =
see these complaints as excuses for actions that Mr. Ford did not take.

"I don't think Ford has suffered from a lack of talent the past 15 =
years," Mr. Casesa said. "The issue is strategy and implementation, =
rather than the people involved."

EARLIER this year, an entire table of Mr. Ford's relatives - his cousins =
Edsel B. Ford II and Elena Ford, and Edsel's son, Henry Ford III - =
looked on during a luncheon at the Detroit Athletic Club as Mr. Ford was =
named automotive executive of the year. Despite the united front, Mr. =
Ford acknowledges that family members are concerned about Ford's =
declining fortunes, and its stock price, which, at $6.38, is cheaper =
than a pound of coffee at Starbucks, where Mr. Ford could once escape =
anonymously during the workday. (Having relocated his family from tony =
Grosse Pointe a few years ago, he still drops in to local coffee shops =
in the college town they now call home, Ann Arbor.)

While declining to speak for the family, Mr. Hamp also acknowledged its =
apprehensions. "They're very intelligent people who have observed this =
company for a long time; they recognize the challenges that this company =
faces," he said. "They have, it's fair to say, as many concerns as =
anyone else - board member, investor, employee."

Those concerns helped convince Mr. Ford to take on the job of chief =
operating officer, and Mr. Hamp helps him decide which meetings and =
projects deserve his attention. Mr. Hamp said he encouraged Mr. Ford to =
remember that "we need to go faster, we need to make decisions more =
quickly, we need to cut costs and we need to do those things that are a =
part of an organization that needs to fix its problems."=20

Mr. Ford is stressing that same message to his executive team. This =
spring, he took a dozen of Ford's most senior executives to a Michigan =
resort for a combination Big Chill-style bonding and brainstorming =
weekend, intended to lay the groundwork for his assumption of greater =
operating duties. The executives cooked a salmon dinner together, with =
Mr. Ford, a vegetarian, in charge of the brown rice. They spent hours =
talking about his turnaround plan, called "the Way Forward," which he =
rolled out at a splashy news conference in January and which calls for =
the company to close two dozen plants and eliminate 30,000 jobs through =
2010.

Mr. Ford vowed to slow and then reverse the company's market-share slide =
and to return to profitability by 2008. Yet much about his approach =
remains unclear, particularly where his devotion to the environment is =
concerned. Although Ford has promoted its commitment to hybrids in =
television commercials featuring Kermit the Frog, last month it backed =
off plans to build 250,000 hybrid vehicles a year by 2010. Instead, Ford =
said it would double the number of flexible fuel vehicles it produces, =
to two million a year by 2010, while continuing to develop hybrid =
vehicles.=20

It was the second time during Mr. Ford's tenure in the senior ranks that =
the company had reneged on an environmental promise. In 2000, when he =
was chairman, it pledged a 25 percent improvement in the fuel efficiency =
of its S.U.V.'s by 2005. But the effort was set aside in 2002, because =
Ford did not have the technology to achieve it, Mr. Ford told =
shareholders in an environmental report.

"He held himself out as the great green hope," said Daniel Becker, =
director of the Sierra Club's global warming program. "The fear is that =
he will turn into the great green hoax."

Mr. Ford, accustomed to such criticism, says the company needs to keep =
its options open. Technology is developing so rapidly, he says, that =
hybrids may not be the way to go, even though Toyota, the acknowledged =
leader in hybrid development, plans to have one million hybrids on the =
road by the end of the decade. Green debate aside, however, it will not =
be hybrids or fuel-efficient vehicles that end Ford's slide: it will be =
an overall fleet of attractive, reliable cars that can battle Toyota and =
other auto companies for buyers.

Ford's lineup includes two hits: the Mustang and the Fusion, one of =
three midsized cars that the company rolled out in the last year. Thanks =
to this pair, Ford's car sales are up this year even though its overall =
sales and market share are down from 2005, continuing a decline that =
began around the start of the decade. Ford's overreliance on pickup =
trucks and S.U.V.'s has hurt it. The latest version of the Explorer, =
long its best-selling sport utility, made its debut last fall just as =
gas prices began soaring; sales of the vehicle have slumped.=20

Consumers, meanwhile, are clamoring for fuel-efficient small cars, but =
in the United States Ford does not sell anything smaller than the Focus, =
leaving a missing rung at the bottom of its product ladder and another =
gap in its pro-environment philosophy. To jump-start things, Ford =
executives say, they have to develop vehicles they can sell without =
discounts and which buyers will load with expensive options like =
navigation systems and powerful engines. The Way Forward pins Ford's =
hopes on innovation, which Mr. Ford says is exemplified by cars like the =
Escape Hybrid, the Fusion and the Mustang.

But most of Ford's new cars are less distinctive. Embracing a trend =
started by Toyota in the mid-1990's, Ford is rushing to bring out more =
crossover vehicles, like the Edge, an S.U.V. built on a standard =
automobile platform. Analysts say those vehicles are by nature =
utilitarian and likely to inspire little lust in buyers' hearts.

"There is no evidence of a huge product offensive," said Stefano Aversa, =
chief operating officer at Alix Partners, a firm that specializes in =
corporate restructuring. "I'll be pleasantly surprised if I see 10 new =
products. I don't see any of them coming yet."=20

Ford also has to overcome a reputation for turning out merely =
serviceable products, said Brian Moody, a road test editor at =
Edmunds.com, a Web site that dispenses car-buying advice. =
Vanilla-flavored cars might work fine for Toyota, which honed its =
reputation for quality over decades, and a conservative approach might =
have been acceptable in an earlier era, when Detroit companies dominated =
the American market, he said. But with Detroit's market share reaching =
all-time lows, Ford needs to exceed customers' expectations in order to =
keep up with Japanese and Korean carmakers, which are increasingly =
attracting Ford's loyal, largely middle-class customers.

"If the car isn't good, if the truck isn't good, people aren't going to =
buy it just because it's a Ford," Mr. Moody said.=20

FORD needs to act quickly on its vow to innovate. Toyota blew by =
DaimlerChrysler this spring to claim the No. 3 spot in American auto =
sales. Next in Toyota's sights is Ford. True innovation, as illustrated =
by vehicles like Toyota's popular Prius, is an elusive goal in an =
industry that typically needs more than three years to bring its cars to =
life. That may be more time than Mr. Ford has - and he is battling a =
culture that still clings to some vestiges of its more prosperous past.=20

Insiders have often likened Ford's middle management to a marshmallow: =
push on it and it dents; after a short while it just springs back into =
shape. To be sure, Ford managers have also had to endure a barrage of =
improvement efforts through the years, from the quality-focused =
teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming, to Six Sigma quality-control =
methodologies to globalization plans. Hoping to avoid the =
flavor-of-the-month trap, Mr. Ford says he is examining all aspects of =
the way Ford operates, "everything from small things like how we're =
going to treat each other in meetings to very big things like what about =
the trappings of our job?"

Analysts say frills like Ford's executive dining room send messages that =
the Way Forward plan, with its focus on doing more with less, is for the =
grunts only, while top executives, whose Glass House offices are reached =
by climbing a curved staircase behind a security guard, still enjoy =
creature comforts.

"There should be signals," Mr. Aversa said. "When things go well, you =
can take your time and plan for the long term. But when things go rough, =
you have to execute and do things with a sense of urgency."

Last week's dividend cut may be one such signal, but whether the Way =
Forward is the plan and Mr. Ford the right executive to carry it out =
remain topics of debate among analysts. "Either you intensify this plan =
and look at the whole business model brutally or you get someone else to =
do the job," Mr. Casesa said.

For his part, Mr. Ford said he heard the clock ticking, aware that his =
family's legacy was in danger of slipping away with every passing =
second. "I'm impatient, too," he said. "I have no patience for wasting =
time."=20

Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C @ =
<a href="http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt" target="_blank">http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt</a>

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&lt;DIV class=3Dtimestamp&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;July 16, 2006&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV class=3Dtimestamp&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV class=3Dtimestamp&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;By Micheline =
Maynard&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV class=3Dtimestamp&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;New York=20
Times&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;&lt;NYT_TEXT&gt;&lt;/NYT_TEXT&gt;
&lt;DIV id=3DarticleBody&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Dearborn, Mich.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;A fish tank as big as a flat-screen television =
dominates=20
one wall of Bill Ford=92s office. Tulips, tired and randomly arranged, =
droop from=20
vases on nearby tables. A jumble of orchids and tropical plants compete =
for=20
space behind his desk, and a closet has a hidden espresso machine where =
Mr.=20
Ford, the &lt;SPAN class=3Dbold&gt;Ford Motor&lt;/SPAN&gt; Company=92s chief =
executive, retreats=20
several times a day to brew high-octane shots.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;If Mr. Ford=92s office smacks of an overgrown =
boomer=92s pad,=20
nearly everything else around it offers a corporate version of Miss =
Havisham =97=20
from the automotive giant=92s headquarters, built in 1956 and known =
locally as the=20
Glass House, to the hallways dotted with stylized black-and-white =
photographs=20
from the company=92s glory days decades ago. &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;In the executive dining room, the last of its =
kind at=20
Detroit=92s big automakers, waitresses take orders from a multicourse =
menu and=20
bring silver finger bowls between the main course and dessert. Many of =
the Glass=20
House=92s walls, as well as the wood-paneled and softly lit lobby of the =
company=92s=20
design center, feature portraits of Mr. Ford=92s ancestors, like his =
legendary=20
great-grandfather Henry Ford, his grandfather Edsel Ford and his father, =
William=20
Clay Ford Sr.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;The answer to whether Mr. Ford=92s portrait will =
hang among=20
them one day, and whether there will eventually even be a headquarters =
where=20
such portraits can hang, now rests in his hands. He could either be the =
Ford=20
that resurrects one of the biggest companies on earth, or perhaps become =
the=20
last Ford to run it. Few are more aware of this than Mr. Ford himself, =
who, at=20
49, holds a daunting trio of jobs, as chairman, chief executive and, =
since=20
earlier this month, chair of its executive operating committee, making =
him=20
Ford=92s de facto chief operating officer, too.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93There=92s nobody that has more at stake in =
this company than=20
I do,=94 he said in a recent interview here. =93Not just financially, =
but=20
emotionally, and historically and everything else.=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Mr. Ford=92s challenges are extraordinary. His =
company=20
reported losses of $1.6 billion in North America last year and lost $1.2 =
billion=20
worldwide in the first quarter this year. On Thursday, Ford halved its =
quarterly=20
dividend to a nickel to preserve cash, and analysts expect the company =
to report=20
tepid second-quarter earnings this week. Many are already forecasting a=20
third-quarter loss. With analysts speculating that the dividend cut =
means that=20
Ford=92s fortunes are worsening, Mr. Ford issued a statement noting that =
=93the=20
headwinds we faced at the beginning of 2006 have only become =
stronger.=94=20
&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;As Mr. Ford tries to stem a slide that has taken =
his=20
company from 25 percent of the American market in 2000 to about 18 =
percent now,=20
he must preserve his family=92s legacy, fight off Asian automakers=92 =
ferocious=20
assault on Detroit and somehow realize his ambition, as yet unfulfilled, =
to make=20
Ford the environmental leader among American auto companies.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;A casual and ebullient man, Mr. Ford personally =
owns 6.3=20
million Ford shares, making him the company=92s largest individual =
holder. The=20
extended Ford family as a whole, which reasserted itself five years ago =
when it=20
led the ouster of Jacques Nasser as chief executive and replaced him =
with Mr.=20
Ford, owns 40 percent of the company=92s super-voting shares. Ever since =
Mr. Ford=20
assumed Mr. Nasser=92s mantle, there have been doubts, some only thinly =
veiled,=20
among analysts, investors and employees that he has the chops for the =
job.=20
&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;When he started, his widely held image was that =
of a=20
reluctant executive who would rather be practicing yoga, fly fishing or=20
traveling somewhere with his wife and four children than be corralled in =
his=20
corner office. Now, as he juggles an even more burdensome troika of job =
titles=20
and responsibilities, Mr. Ford says he is energized in a way that he was =
not=20
during his first years as chief executive. &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93I=92m just a lot more comfortable in this =
job,=94 he said. =93I=20
mean, you know, to use a clich=E9, I think I=92ve really grown in this =
job; but I=20
think it=92s also because my instincts were right.=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;BUT while Mr. Ford has partially streamlined =
Ford=92s=20
bureaucracy and become its public face during his tenure, some of his =
instincts=20
have not born fruit. A devoted environmentalist, he still bowed early on =
to the=20
wishes of Ford=92s entrenched middle managers and senior executives who =
wanted the=20
company to keep churning out very profitable but gas-guzzling sport =
utility=20
vehicles and pickup trucks during a period when oil prices were dirt =
cheap.=20
&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Had Mr. Ford produced more fuel-efficient =
vehicles like=20
hybrids sooner, he not only would have found his company keeping pace =
with=20
nimble foreign competitors like &lt;SPAN class=3Dbold&gt;Toyota&lt;/SPAN&gt; when =
oil prices=20
spiked, but he also would have been able to illustrate the bottom-line =
merit of=20
his environmental values. Instead, Ford, is again in the =
all-too-familiar spot=20
of playing corporate catch-up.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;As the entire American auto industry comes to =
grips with=20
challenges that threaten to permanently eclipse its dominance at home =
and=20
abroad, and as uncertainties about Ford=92s future stir anxieties within =
his=20
family, Mr. Ford asserts that he and his company are responding to the=20
monumental shifts that are shaking the foundations of his =
business.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93The world has played out like I thought it =
would, and it=92s=20
given me not only a renewed sense of confidence but one of urgency,=94 =
he said.=20
=93The question is, what are we changing into and how fast can we get=20
there?=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Not fast enough, say some. The stark reality, =
which Ford as=20
well as &lt;SPAN class=3Dbold&gt;General Motors&lt;/SPAN&gt; need to accept, =
analysts say, is=20
that the companies=92 fates now hang in the balance. &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93Both these companies could fail,=94 said John =
Casesa, a=20
veteran auto industry analyst who runs his own consulting firm. =
=93That=92s how=20
fundamental the problems are in Detroit.=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;A few miles east of Mr. Ford=92s office, dozens =
of visitors=20
from as far away as Australia line up each day to tour Ford=92s newest =
assembly=20
plant inside the sprawling River Rouge complex, whose largely vacant =
buildings=20
once ranked among the biggest industrial centers in the world. They =
start their=20
tour at the plant, which opened two years ago, by watching a film that =
depicts=20
the life of Henry Ford and the activities of succeeding generations of=20
Fords.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;They can look out at 1,500 trees surrounding the =
complex or=20
learn that the new plant=92s roof, covered with tough, bushy sedum, is =
part of Mr.=20
Ford=92s goal of building a =93green=94 factory, one that will help =
restore the=20
environment rather than pollute the surrounding skies with filthy smoke =
as the=20
Rouge complex once did. On an ideal day, tourists also can watch Ford =
workers=20
building the big F-Series pickup truck, the country=92s best-selling =
vehicle for=20
almost 30 years running, and the indisputable gusher in Ford=92s revenue =

stream.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Sometimes, though, tourists go home without =
seeing any=20
trucks glide down the assembly line, idled occasionally because it makes =
no=20
sense to ship vehicles that dealers cannot sell. Even so, Mr. Ford =
considers the=20
new plant as one of his most important victories over company executives =
who=20
argued that it was an expensive folly. &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Completing the plant =93validated=94 him, Mr. =
Ford said. =93I got=20
very little support,=94 he recalled, =93and yet I said: =91We=92re going =
to do it. We=92re=20
just going to do it.=92 =94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Mr. Ford will need that firmness of mind if he =
intends to=20
preserve three things he says are of paramount importance to him at =
Ford: the=20
company itself, his family=92s legacy and a clean environmental record. =
He has=20
foregone a salary over the last year and said he intended to keep it =
that way=20
until he successfully revived Ford=92s fortunes.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;The family=92s financial stake in Ford, including =
nonvoting=20
common stock and a more powerful and separate class of voting shares, is =

currently worth approximately $460 million, down almost half since Ford=20
celebrated its 100th corporate birthday three years ago; Mr. Ford=92s =
personal=20
stake is worth about $43 million. A combination of financial =
self-interest and a=20
prized familial legacy makes Mr. Ford=92s tasks more personally =
imperative than=20
they might typically be at other public companies in need of a =
turnaround =97 like=20
G.M., for example, whose headquarters Mr. Ford can spy from his office =
on a=20
clear day.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;As Mr. Ford watches G.M. entertain a potentially =
historic=20
alliance with a French automaker, &lt;SPAN class=3Dbold&gt;Renault&lt;/SPAN&gt;, and =
a=20
Japanese automaker, &lt;SPAN class=3Dbold&gt;Nissan&lt;/SPAN&gt;, he says he will =
not rule out=20
a similar path for his company, which already has management control of =
another=20
Japanese auto company, &lt;SPAN class=3Dbold&gt;Mazda&lt;/SPAN&gt;. But Mr. Ford =
said he had=20
more pressing concerns. =93Regardless of any deal that we might =
envision,=94 he=20
said, =93the fact is that we have to fix our North American business.=94 =
&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;The company=92s North American operation is =
hamstrung by=20
lackluster product lines, heavy losses that have delayed new vehicle =
development=20
and, until recently, constant executive turnover that forced underlings =
to wait=20
until new bosses came on board. Mr. Ford has to tackle all of these =
problems=20
while overseeing a potentially backbreaking combination of =
jobs.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93It defies my imagination how he can get =
through a day with=20
the proper amount of attention to each position,=94 said Michael Useem, =
a=20
management professor at the Wharton School of the University of =
Pennsylvania.=20
=93If he can, more power to him.=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;MR. FORD said his biggest challenge is time =
management, as=20
well as a constant switching of corporate roles. In one moment, he =
occupies=20
Ford=92s conceptual role as chairman; in the next, a strategic role as =
chief=20
executive; and in the next, the nitty-gritty management role of =
overseeing daily=20
operations. =93I can=92t delegate to anybody,=94 he said.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Why take all of that on? Because controlling =
those jobs is=20
how Mr. Ford believes that he can get his own way inside an unyielding =
corporate=20
bureaucracy =97 something that he says has not occurred earlier despite =
his name=20
and apparent clout. Mr. Ford bluntly contends that managers stymied him, =
as both=20
chairman and chief executive, by getting in the way of projects like the =
Rouge=20
plant and a hybrid version of the Ford Escape, a small sport utility=20
vehicle&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;The Escape Hybrid, which Ford began developing in =
1998 in=20
response to Toyota=92s hybrid plans, languished for nearly six years =
before=20
reaching the market. Even then, Mr. Ford said, he had to fight with =
marketing=20
officials who argued that there was no point spending much money on a =
vehicle=20
that generated sales of only 20,000 units a year, despite its symbolism =
as the=20
first hybrid from a Detroit car company.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Mr. Ford contends that projects like the hybrid =
Escape will=20
move more swiftly with his own handpicked team members in place, the =
most=20
crucial of whom is his new chief of staff, Steven K. Hamp, his closest =
friend,=20
brother-in-law and determined gatekeeper. =93He has probably voiced =
every=20
frustration you can imagine to me with respect to this company,=94 said =
Mr. Hamp,=20
who previously ran the world-famous Henry Ford Museum and is married to =
Mr.=20
Ford=92s sister, Sheila.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Associates say Mr. Ford endured years of =
condescending=20
behavior by subordinates who considered his wealth and interest in =
social causes=20
no match for the years they had toiled in the company=92s trenches, even =
though=20
Mr. Ford himself spent more than 20 years in a variety of lower-level =
jobs. They=20
also say that other executives, who spent as much time managing their =
careers as=20
they did managing the company, saw Mr. Ford as a roadblock to the top =
and tried=20
to undermine him. Yet, others see these complaints as excuses for =
actions that=20
Mr. Ford did not take.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93I don=92t think Ford has suffered from a lack =
of talent the=20
past 15 years,=94 Mr. Casesa said. =93The issue is strategy and =
implementation,=20
rather than the people involved.=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;EARLIER this year, an entire table of Mr. =
Ford=92s relatives=20
=97 his cousins Edsel B. Ford II and Elena Ford, and Edsel=92s son, =
Henry Ford III =97=20
looked on during a luncheon at the Detroit Athletic Club as Mr. Ford was =
named=20
automotive executive of the year. Despite the united front, Mr. Ford=20
acknowledges that family members are concerned about Ford=92s declining =
fortunes,=20
and its stock price, which, at $6.38, is cheaper than a pound of coffee =
at=20
Starbucks, where Mr. Ford could once escape anonymously during the =
workday.=20
(Having relocated his family from tony Grosse Pointe a few years ago, he =
still=20
drops in to local coffee shops in the college town they now call home, =
Ann=20
Arbor.)&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;While declining to speak for the family, Mr. Hamp =
also=20
acknowledged its apprehensions. =93They=92re very intelligent people who =
have=20
observed this company for a long time; they recognize the challenges =
that this=20
company faces,=94 he said. =93They have, it=92s fair to say, as many =
concerns as=20
anyone else =97 board member, investor, employee.=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Those concerns helped convince Mr. Ford to take =
on the job=20
of chief operating officer, and Mr. Hamp helps him decide which meetings =
and=20
projects deserve his attention. Mr. Hamp said he encouraged Mr. Ford to =
remember=20
that =93we need to go faster, we need to make decisions more quickly, we =
need to=20
cut costs and we need to do those things that are a part of an =
organization that=20
needs to fix its problems.=94 &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Mr. Ford is stressing that same message to his =
executive=20
team. This spring, he took a dozen of Ford=92s most senior executives to =
a=20
Michigan resort for a combination Big Chill-style bonding and =
brainstorming=20
weekend, intended to lay the groundwork for his assumption of greater =
operating=20
duties. The executives cooked a salmon dinner together, with Mr. Ford, a =

vegetarian, in charge of the brown rice. They spent hours talking about =
his=20
turnaround plan, called =93the Way Forward,=94 which he rolled out at a =
splashy news=20
conference in January and which calls for the company to close two dozen =
plants=20
and eliminate 30,000 jobs through 2010.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Mr. Ford vowed to slow and then reverse the =
company=92s=20
market-share slide and to return to profitability by 2008. Yet much =
about his=20
approach remains unclear, particularly where his devotion to the =
environment is=20
concerned. Although Ford has promoted its commitment to hybrids in =
television=20
commercials featuring Kermit the Frog, last month it backed off plans to =
build=20
250,000 hybrid vehicles a year by 2010. Instead, Ford said it would =
double the=20
number of flexible fuel vehicles it produces, to two million a year by =
2010,=20
while continuing to develop hybrid vehicles. &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;It was the second time during Mr. Ford=92s tenure =
in the=20
senior ranks that the company had reneged on an environmental promise. =
In 2000,=20
when he was chairman, it pledged a 25 percent improvement in the fuel =
efficiency=20
of its S.U.V.=92s by 2005. But the effort was set aside in 2002, because =
Ford did=20
not have the technology to achieve it, Mr. Ford told shareholders in an=20
environmental report.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93He held himself out as the great green =
hope,=94 said Daniel=20
Becker, director of the Sierra Club=92s global warming program. =93The =
fear is that=20
he will turn into the great green hoax.=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Mr. Ford, accustomed to such criticism, says the =
company=20
needs to keep its options open. Technology is developing so rapidly, he =
says,=20
that hybrids may not be the way to go, even though Toyota, the =
acknowledged=20
leader in hybrid development, plans to have one million hybrids on the =
road by=20
the end of the decade. Green debate aside, however, it will not be =
hybrids or=20
fuel-efficient vehicles that end Ford=92s slide: it will be an overall =
fleet of=20
attractive, reliable cars that can battle Toyota and other auto =
companies for=20
buyers.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Ford=92s lineup includes two hits: the Mustang =
and the=20
Fusion, one of three midsized cars that the company rolled out in the =
last year.=20
Thanks to this pair, Ford=92s car sales are up this year even though its =
overall=20
sales and market share are down from 2005, continuing a decline that =
began=20
around the start of the decade. Ford=92s overreliance on pickup trucks =
and=20
S.U.V.=92s has hurt it. The latest version of the Explorer, long its =
best-selling=20
sport utility, made its debut last fall just as gas prices began =
soaring; sales=20
of the vehicle have slumped. &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Consumers, meanwhile, are clamoring for =
fuel-efficient=20
small cars, but in the United States Ford does not sell anything smaller =
than=20
the Focus, leaving a missing rung at the bottom of its product ladder =
and=20
another gap in its pro-environment philosophy. To jump-start things, =
Ford=20
executives say, they have to develop vehicles they can sell without =
discounts=20
and which buyers will load with expensive options like navigation =
systems and=20
powerful engines. The Way Forward pins Ford=92s hopes on innovation, =
which Mr.=20
Ford says is exemplified by cars like the Escape Hybrid, the Fusion and =
the=20
Mustang.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;But most of Ford=92s new cars are less =
distinctive. Embracing=20
a trend started by Toyota in the mid-1990=92s, Ford is rushing to bring =
out more=20
crossover vehicles, like the Edge, an S.U.V. built on a standard =
automobile=20
platform. Analysts say those vehicles are by nature utilitarian and =
likely to=20
inspire little lust in buyers=92 hearts.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93There is no evidence of a huge product =
offensive,=94 said=20
Stefano Aversa, chief operating officer at Alix Partners, a firm that=20
specializes in corporate restructuring. =93I=92ll be pleasantly =
surprised if I see=20
10 new products. I don=92t see any of them coming yet.=94 &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Ford also has to overcome a reputation for =
turning out=20
merely serviceable products, said Brian Moody, a road test editor at=20
Edmunds.com, a Web site that dispenses car-buying advice. =
Vanilla-flavored cars=20
might work fine for Toyota, which honed its reputation for quality over =
decades,=20
and a conservative approach might have been acceptable in an earlier =
era, when=20
Detroit companies dominated the American market, he said. But with =
Detroit=92s=20
market share reaching all-time lows, Ford needs to exceed customers=92=20
expectations in order to keep up with Japanese and Korean carmakers, =
which are=20
increasingly attracting Ford=92s loyal, largely middle-class =
customers.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93If the car isn=92t good, if the truck isn=92t =
good, people=20
aren=92t going to buy it just because it=92s a Ford,=94 Mr. Moody said. =
&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;FORD needs to act quickly on its vow to innovate. =
Toyota=20
blew by &lt;SPAN class=3Dbold&gt;DaimlerChrysler&lt;/SPAN&gt; this spring to claim =
the No. 3=20
spot in American auto sales. Next in Toyota=92s sights is Ford. True =
innovation,=20
as illustrated by vehicles like Toyota=92s popular Prius, is an elusive =
goal in an=20
industry that typically needs more than three years to bring its cars to =
life.=20
That may be more time than Mr. Ford has =97 and he is battling a culture =
that=20
still clings to some vestiges of its more prosperous past. &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Insiders have often likened Ford=92s middle =
management to a=20
marshmallow: push on it and it dents; after a short while it just =
springs back=20
into shape. To be sure, Ford managers have also had to endure a barrage =
of=20
improvement efforts through the years, from the quality-focused =
teachings of Dr.=20
W. Edwards Deming, to Six Sigma quality-control methodologies to =
globalization=20
plans. Hoping to avoid the flavor-of-the-month trap, Mr. Ford says he is =

examining all aspects of the way Ford operates, =93everything from small =
things=20
like how we=92re going to treat each other in meetings to very big =
things like=20
what about the trappings of our job?=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Analysts say frills like Ford=92s executive =
dining room send=20
messages that the Way Forward plan, with its focus on doing more with =
less, is=20
for the grunts only, while top executives, whose Glass House offices are =
reached=20
by climbing a curved staircase behind a security guard, still enjoy =
creature=20
comforts.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;=93There should be signals,=94 Mr. Aversa said. =
=93When things go=20
well, you can take your time and plan for the long term. But when things =
go=20
rough, you have to execute and do things with a sense of =
urgency.=94&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Last week=92s dividend cut may be one such =
signal, but=20
whether the Way Forward is the plan and Mr. Ford the right executive to =
carry it=20
out remain topics of debate among analysts. =93Either you intensify this =
plan and=20
look at the whole business model brutally or you get someone else to do =
the=20
job,=94 Mr. Casesa said.&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;For his part, Mr. Ford said he heard the clock =
ticking,=20
aware that his family=92s legacy was in danger of slipping away with =
every passing=20
second. =93I=92m impatient, too,=94 he said. =93I have no patience for =
wasting time.=94=20
&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;
&lt;P&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DTahoma&gt;Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a =
1970 Mach 1=20
351C @&amp;nbsp; &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;A href=3D&quot;&quot;&gt;&lt;FONT=20
face=3DTahoma&gt;<a href="http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt" target="_blank">http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt</a>&lt;/FON=
T&gt;&lt;/A&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;&lt;/BODY&gt;&lt;/HTML&gt;

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Report this message

#2: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 16:29:57 by Picasso

What they need, is to get the workers on board, make them realize a
change is necessary, and it doesn't mean paycuts, it means doing things
more efficiently, building better quality, with the people they have.

They need to take some time and study the GE management style, and begin
to manage these people.

Grover C. McCoury III wrote:
&gt; July 16, 2006
&gt;
&gt; By Micheline Maynard
&gt; New York Times
&gt;
&gt; Dearborn, Mich.
&gt;
&gt; A fish tank as big as a flat-screen television dominates one wall of
&gt; Bill FordÂs office. Tulips, tired and randomly arranged, droop from
&gt; vases on nearby tables. A jumble of orchids and tropical plants compete
&gt; for space behind his desk, and a closet has a hidden espresso machine
&gt; where Mr. Ford, the Ford Motor CompanyÂs chief executive, retreats
&gt; several times a day to brew high-octane shots.
&gt;
&gt; If Mr. FordÂs office smacks of an overgrown boomerÂs pad, nearly
&gt; everything else around it offers a corporate version of Miss Havisham Â
&gt; from the automotive giantÂs headquarters, built in 1956 and known
&gt; locally as the Glass House, to the hallways dotted with stylized
&gt; black-and-white photographs from the companyÂs glory days decades ago.
&gt;
&gt; In the executive dining room, the last of its kind at DetroitÂs big
&gt; automakers, waitresses take orders from a multicourse menu and bring
&gt; silver finger bowls between the main course and dessert. Many of the
&gt; Glass HouseÂs walls, as well as the wood-paneled and softly lit lobby of
&gt; the companyÂs design center, feature portraits of Mr. FordÂs ancestors,
&gt; like his legendary great-grandfather Henry Ford, his grandfather Edsel
&gt; Ford and his father, William Clay Ford Sr.
&gt;
&gt; The answer to whether Mr. FordÂs portrait will hang among them one day,
&gt; and whether there will eventually even be a headquarters where such
&gt; portraits can hang, now rests in his hands. He could either be the Ford
&gt; that resurrects one of the biggest companies on earth, or perhaps become
&gt; the last Ford to run it. Few are more aware of this than Mr. Ford
&gt; himself, who, at 49, holds a daunting trio of jobs, as chairman, chief
&gt; executive and, since earlier this month, chair of its executive
&gt; operating committee, making him FordÂs de facto chief operating officer,
&gt; too.
&gt;
&gt; ÂThereÂs nobody that has more at stake in this company than I do, he
&gt; said in a recent interview here. ÂNot just financially, but emotionally,
&gt; and historically and everything else.Â
&gt;
&gt; Mr. FordÂs challenges are extraordinary. His company reported losses of
&gt; $1.6 billion in North America last year and lost $1.2 billion worldwide
&gt; in the first quarter this year. On Thursday, Ford halved its quarterly
&gt; dividend to a nickel to preserve cash, and analysts expect the company
&gt; to report tepid second-quarter earnings this week. Many are already
&gt; forecasting a third-quarter loss. With analysts speculating that the
&gt; dividend cut means that FordÂs fortunes are worsening, Mr. Ford issued a
&gt; statement noting that Âthe headwinds we faced at the beginning of 2006
&gt; have only become stronger.Â
&gt;
&gt; As Mr. Ford tries to stem a slide that has taken his company from 25
&gt; percent of the American market in 2000 to about 18 percent now, he must
&gt; preserve his familyÂs legacy, fight off Asian automakers ferocious
&gt; assault on Detroit and somehow realize his ambition, as yet unfulfilled,
&gt; to make Ford the environmental leader among American auto companies.
&gt;
&gt; A casual and ebullient man, Mr. Ford personally owns 6.3 million Ford
&gt; shares, making him the companyÂs largest individual holder. The extended
&gt; Ford family as a whole, which reasserted itself five years ago when it
&gt; led the ouster of Jacques Nasser as chief executive and replaced him
&gt; with Mr. Ford, owns 40 percent of the companyÂs super-voting shares.
&gt; Ever since Mr. Ford assumed Mr. NasserÂs mantle, there have been doubts,
&gt; some only thinly veiled, among analysts, investors and employees that he
&gt; has the chops for the job.
&gt;
&gt; When he started, his widely held image was that of a reluctant executive
&gt; who would rather be practicing yoga, fly fishing or traveling somewhere
&gt; with his wife and four children than be corralled in his corner office.
&gt; Now, as he juggles an even more burdensome troika of job titles and
&gt; responsibilities, Mr. Ford says he is energized in a way that he was not
&gt; during his first years as chief executive.
&gt;
&gt; ÂIÂm just a lot more comfortable in this job, he said. ÂI mean, you
&gt; know, to use a cliché, I think IÂve really grown in this job; but I
&gt; think itÂs also because my instincts were right.Â
&gt;
&gt; BUT while Mr. Ford has partially streamlined FordÂs bureaucracy and
&gt; become its public face during his tenure, some of his instincts have not
&gt; born fruit. A devoted environmentalist, he still bowed early on to the
&gt; wishes of FordÂs entrenched middle managers and senior executives who
&gt; wanted the company to keep churning out very profitable but gas-guzzling
&gt; sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks during a period when oil prices
&gt; were dirt cheap.
&gt;
&gt; Had Mr. Ford produced more fuel-efficient vehicles like hybrids sooner,
&gt; he not only would have found his company keeping pace with nimble
&gt; foreign competitors like Toyota when oil prices spiked, but he also
&gt; would have been able to illustrate the bottom-line merit of his
&gt; environmental values. Instead, Ford, is again in the all-too-familiar
&gt; spot of playing corporate catch-up.
&gt;
&gt; As the entire American auto industry comes to grips with challenges that
&gt; threaten to permanently eclipse its dominance at home and abroad, and as
&gt; uncertainties about FordÂs future stir anxieties within his family, Mr.
&gt; Ford asserts that he and his company are responding to the monumental
&gt; shifts that are shaking the foundations of his business.
&gt;
&gt; ÂThe world has played out like I thought it would, and itÂs given me not
&gt; only a renewed sense of confidence but one of urgency, he said. ÂThe
&gt; question is, what are we changing into and how fast can we get there?Â
&gt;
&gt; Not fast enough, say some. The stark reality, which Ford as well as
&gt; General Motors need to accept, analysts say, is that the companiesÂ
&gt; fates now hang in the balance.
&gt;
&gt; ÂBoth these companies could fail, said John Casesa, a veteran auto
&gt; industry analyst who runs his own consulting firm. ÂThatÂs how
&gt; fundamental the problems are in Detroit.Â
&gt;
&gt; A few miles east of Mr. FordÂs office, dozens of visitors from as far
&gt; away as Australia line up each day to tour FordÂs newest assembly plant
&gt; inside the sprawling River Rouge complex, whose largely vacant buildings
&gt; once ranked among the biggest industrial centers in the world. They
&gt; start their tour at the plant, which opened two years ago, by watching a
&gt; film that depicts the life of Henry Ford and the activities of
&gt; succeeding generations of Fords.
&gt;
&gt; They can look out at 1,500 trees surrounding the complex or learn that
&gt; the new plantÂs roof, covered with tough, bushy sedum, is part of Mr.
&gt; FordÂs goal of building a Âgreen factory, one that will help restore
&gt; the environment rather than pollute the surrounding skies with filthy
&gt; smoke as the Rouge complex once did. On an ideal day, tourists also can
&gt; watch Ford workers building the big F-Series pickup truck, the countryÂs
&gt; best-selling vehicle for almost 30 years running, and the indisputable
&gt; gusher in FordÂs revenue stream.
&gt;
&gt; Sometimes, though, tourists go home without seeing any trucks glide down
&gt; the assembly line, idled occasionally because it makes no sense to ship
&gt; vehicles that dealers cannot sell. Even so, Mr. Ford considers the new
&gt; plant as one of his most important victories over company executives who
&gt; argued that it was an expensive folly.
&gt;
&gt; Completing the plant Âvalidated him, Mr. Ford said. ÂI got very little
&gt; support, he recalled, Âand yet I said: ÂWeÂre going to do it. WeÂre
&gt; just going to do it. Â
&gt;
&gt; Mr. Ford will need that firmness of mind if he intends to preserve three
&gt; things he says are of paramount importance to him at Ford: the company
&gt; itself, his familyÂs legacy and a clean environmental record. He has
&gt; foregone a salary over the last year and said he intended to keep it
&gt; that way until he successfully revived FordÂs fortunes.
&gt;
&gt; The familyÂs financial stake in Ford, including nonvoting common stock
&gt; and a more powerful and separate class of voting shares, is currently
&gt; worth approximately $460 million, down almost half since Ford celebrated
&gt; its 100th corporate birthday three years ago; Mr. FordÂs personal stake
&gt; is worth about $43 million. A combination of financial self-interest and
&gt; a prized familial legacy makes Mr. FordÂs tasks more personally
&gt; imperative than they might typically be at other public companies in
&gt; need of a turnaround  like G.M., for example, whose headquarters Mr.
&gt; Ford can spy from his office on a clear day.
&gt;
&gt; As Mr. Ford watches G.M. entertain a potentially historic alliance with
&gt; a French automaker, Renault, and a Japanese automaker, Nissan, he says
&gt; he will not rule out a similar path for his company, which already has
&gt; management control of another Japanese auto company, Mazda. But Mr. Ford
&gt; said he had more pressing concerns. ÂRegardless of any deal that we
&gt; might envision, he said, Âthe fact is that we have to fix our North
&gt; American business.Â
&gt;
&gt; The companyÂs North American operation is hamstrung by lackluster
&gt; product lines, heavy losses that have delayed new vehicle development
&gt; and, until recently, constant executive turnover that forced underlings
&gt; to wait until new bosses came on board. Mr. Ford has to tackle all of
&gt; these problems while overseeing a potentially backbreaking combination
&gt; of jobs.
&gt;
&gt; ÂIt defies my imagination how he can get through a day with the proper
&gt; amount of attention to each position, said Michael Useem, a management
&gt; professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. ÂIf
&gt; he can, more power to him.Â
&gt;
&gt; MR. FORD said his biggest challenge is time management, as well as a
&gt; constant switching of corporate roles. In one moment, he occupies FordÂs
&gt; conceptual role as chairman; in the next, a strategic role as chief
&gt; executive; and in the next, the nitty-gritty management role of
&gt; overseeing daily operations. ÂI canÂt delegate to anybody, he said.
&gt;
&gt; Why take all of that on? Because controlling those jobs is how Mr. Ford
&gt; believes that he can get his own way inside an unyielding corporate
&gt; bureaucracy  something that he says has not occurred earlier despite
&gt; his name and apparent clout. Mr. Ford bluntly contends that managers
&gt; stymied him, as both chairman and chief executive, by getting in the way
&gt; of projects like the Rouge plant and a hybrid version of the Ford
&gt; Escape, a small sport utility vehicle
&gt;
&gt; The Escape Hybrid, which Ford began developing in 1998 in response to
&gt; ToyotaÂs hybrid plans, languished for nearly six years before reaching
&gt; the market. Even then, Mr. Ford said, he had to fight with marketing
&gt; officials who argued that there was no point spending much money on a
&gt; vehicle that generated sales of only 20,000 units a year, despite its
&gt; symbolism as the first hybrid from a Detroit car company.
&gt;
&gt; Mr. Ford contends that projects like the hybrid Escape will move more
&gt; swiftly with his own handpicked team members in place, the most crucial
&gt; of whom is his new chief of staff, Steven K. Hamp, his closest friend,
&gt; brother-in-law and determined gatekeeper. ÂHe has probably voiced every
&gt; frustration you can imagine to me with respect to this company, said
&gt; Mr. Hamp, who previously ran the world-famous Henry Ford Museum and is
&gt; married to Mr. FordÂs sister, Sheila.
&gt;
&gt; Associates say Mr. Ford endured years of condescending behavior by
&gt; subordinates who considered his wealth and interest in social causes no
&gt; match for the years they had toiled in the companyÂs trenches, even
&gt; though Mr. Ford himself spent more than 20 years in a variety of
&gt; lower-level jobs. They also say that other executives, who spent as much
&gt; time managing their careers as they did managing the company, saw Mr.
&gt; Ford as a roadblock to the top and tried to undermine him. Yet, others
&gt; see these complaints as excuses for actions that Mr. Ford did not take.
&gt;
&gt; ÂI donÂt think Ford has suffered from a lack of talent the past 15
&gt; years, Mr. Casesa said. ÂThe issue is strategy and implementation,
&gt; rather than the people involved.Â
&gt;
&gt; EARLIER this year, an entire table of Mr. FordÂs relatives  his cousins
&gt; Edsel B. Ford II and Elena Ford, and EdselÂs son, Henry Ford III Â
&gt; looked on during a luncheon at the Detroit Athletic Club as Mr. Ford was
&gt; named automotive executive of the year. Despite the united front, Mr.
&gt; Ford acknowledges that family members are concerned about FordÂs
&gt; declining fortunes, and its stock price, which, at $6.38, is cheaper
&gt; than a pound of coffee at Starbucks, where Mr. Ford could once escape
&gt; anonymously during the workday. (Having relocated his family from tony
&gt; Grosse Pointe a few years ago, he still drops in to local coffee shops
&gt; in the college town they now call home, Ann Arbor.)
&gt;
&gt; While declining to speak for the family, Mr. Hamp also acknowledged its
&gt; apprehensions. ÂTheyÂre very intelligent people who have observed this
&gt; company for a long time; they recognize the challenges that this company
&gt; faces, he said. ÂThey have, itÂs fair to say, as many concerns as
&gt; anyone else  board member, investor, employee.Â
&gt;
&gt; Those concerns helped convince Mr. Ford to take on the job of chief
&gt; operating officer, and Mr. Hamp helps him decide which meetings and
&gt; projects deserve his attention. Mr. Hamp said he encouraged Mr. Ford to
&gt; remember that Âwe need to go faster, we need to make decisions more
&gt; quickly, we need to cut costs and we need to do those things that are a
&gt; part of an organization that needs to fix its problems.Â
&gt;
&gt; Mr. Ford is stressing that same message to his executive team. This
&gt; spring, he took a dozen of FordÂs most senior executives to a Michigan
&gt; resort for a combination Big Chill-style bonding and brainstorming
&gt; weekend, intended to lay the groundwork for his assumption of greater
&gt; operating duties. The executives cooked a salmon dinner together, with
&gt; Mr. Ford, a vegetarian, in charge of the brown rice. They spent hours
&gt; talking about his turnaround plan, called Âthe Way Forward, which he
&gt; rolled out at a splashy news conference in January and which calls for
&gt; the company to close two dozen plants and eliminate 30,000 jobs through
&gt; 2010.
&gt;
&gt; Mr. Ford vowed to slow and then reverse the companyÂs market-share slide
&gt; and to return to profitability by 2008. Yet much about his approach
&gt; remains unclear, particularly where his devotion to the environment is
&gt; concerned. Although Ford has promoted its commitment to hybrids in
&gt; television commercials featuring Kermit the Frog, last month it backed
&gt; off plans to build 250,000 hybrid vehicles a year by 2010. Instead, Ford
&gt; said it would double the number of flexible fuel vehicles it produces,
&gt; to two million a year by 2010, while continuing to develop hybrid vehicles.
&gt;
&gt; It was the second time during Mr. FordÂs tenure in the senior ranks that
&gt; the company had reneged on an environmental promise. In 2000, when he
&gt; was chairman, it pledged a 25 percent improvement in the fuel efficiency
&gt; of its S.U.V.Âs by 2005. But the effort was set aside in 2002, because
&gt; Ford did not have the technology to achieve it, Mr. Ford told
&gt; shareholders in an environmental report.
&gt;
&gt; ÂHe held himself out as the great green hope, said Daniel Becker,
&gt; director of the Sierra ClubÂs global warming program. ÂThe fear is that
&gt; he will turn into the great green hoax.Â
&gt;
&gt; Mr. Ford, accustomed to such criticism, says the company needs to keep
&gt; its options open. Technology is developing so rapidly, he says, that
&gt; hybrids may not be the way to go, even though Toyota, the acknowledged
&gt; leader in hybrid development, plans to have one million hybrids on the
&gt; road by the end of the decade. Green debate aside, however, it will not
&gt; be hybrids or fuel-efficient vehicles that end FordÂs slide: it will be
&gt; an overall fleet of attractive, reliable cars that can battle Toyota and
&gt; other auto companies for buyers.
&gt;
&gt; FordÂs lineup includes two hits: the Mustang and the Fusion, one of
&gt; three midsized cars that the company rolled out in the last year. Thanks
&gt; to this pair, FordÂs car sales are up this year even though its overall
&gt; sales and market share are down from 2005, continuing a decline that
&gt; began around the start of the decade. FordÂs overreliance on pickup
&gt; trucks and S.U.V.Âs has hurt it. The latest version of the Explorer,
&gt; long its best-selling sport utility, made its debut last fall just as
&gt; gas prices began soaring; sales of the vehicle have slumped.
&gt;
&gt; Consumers, meanwhile, are clamoring for fuel-efficient small cars, but
&gt; in the United States Ford does not sell anything smaller than the Focus,
&gt; leaving a missing rung at the bottom of its product ladder and another
&gt; gap in its pro-environment philosophy. To jump-start things, Ford
&gt; executives say, they have to develop vehicles they can sell without
&gt; discounts and which buyers will load with expensive options like
&gt; navigation systems and powerful engines. The Way Forward pins FordÂs
&gt; hopes on innovation, which Mr. Ford says is exemplified by cars like the
&gt; Escape Hybrid, the Fusion and the Mustang.
&gt;
&gt; But most of FordÂs new cars are less distinctive. Embracing a trend
&gt; started by Toyota in the mid-1990Âs, Ford is rushing to bring out more
&gt; crossover vehicles, like the Edge, an S.U.V. built on a standard
&gt; automobile platform. Analysts say those vehicles are by nature
&gt; utilitarian and likely to inspire little lust in buyers hearts.
&gt;
&gt; ÂThere is no evidence of a huge product offensive, said Stefano Aversa,
&gt; chief operating officer at Alix Partners, a firm that specializes in
&gt; corporate restructuring. ÂIÂll be pleasantly surprised if I see 10 new
&gt; products. I donÂt see any of them coming yet.Â
&gt;
&gt; Ford also has to overcome a reputation for turning out merely
&gt; serviceable products, said Brian Moody, a road test editor at
&gt; Edmunds.com, a Web site that dispenses car-buying advice.
&gt; Vanilla-flavored cars might work fine for Toyota, which honed its
&gt; reputation for quality over decades, and a conservative approach might
&gt; have been acceptable in an earlier era, when Detroit companies dominated
&gt; the American market, he said. But with DetroitÂs market share reaching
&gt; all-time lows, Ford needs to exceed customers expectations in order to
&gt; keep up with Japanese and Korean carmakers, which are increasingly
&gt; attracting FordÂs loyal, largely middle-class customers.
&gt;
&gt; ÂIf the car isnÂt good, if the truck isnÂt good, people arenÂt going to
&gt; buy it just because itÂs a Ford, Mr. Moody said.
&gt;
&gt; FORD needs to act quickly on its vow to innovate. Toyota blew by
&gt; DaimlerChrysler this spring to claim the No. 3 spot in American auto
&gt; sales. Next in ToyotaÂs sights is Ford. True innovation, as illustrated
&gt; by vehicles like ToyotaÂs popular Prius, is an elusive goal in an
&gt; industry that typically needs more than three years to bring its cars to
&gt; life. That may be more time than Mr. Ford has  and he is battling a
&gt; culture that still clings to some vestiges of its more prosperous past.
&gt;
&gt; Insiders have often likened FordÂs middle management to a marshmallow:
&gt; push on it and it dents; after a short while it just springs back into
&gt; shape. To be sure, Ford managers have also had to endure a barrage of
&gt; improvement efforts through the years, from the quality-focused
&gt; teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming, to Six Sigma quality-control
&gt; methodologies to globalization plans. Hoping to avoid the
&gt; flavor-of-the-month trap, Mr. Ford says he is examining all aspects of
&gt; the way Ford operates, Âeverything from small things like how weÂre
&gt; going to treat each other in meetings to very big things like what about
&gt; the trappings of our job?Â
&gt;
&gt; Analysts say frills like FordÂs executive dining room send messages that
&gt; the Way Forward plan, with its focus on doing more with less, is for the
&gt; grunts only, while top executives, whose Glass House offices are reached
&gt; by climbing a curved staircase behind a security guard, still enjoy
&gt; creature comforts.
&gt;
&gt; ÂThere should be signals, Mr. Aversa said. ÂWhen things go well, you
&gt; can take your time and plan for the long term. But when things go rough,
&gt; you have to execute and do things with a sense of urgency.Â
&gt;
&gt; Last weekÂs dividend cut may be one such signal, but whether the Way
&gt; Forward is the plan and Mr. Ford the right executive to carry it out
&gt; remain topics of debate among analysts. ÂEither you intensify this plan
&gt; and look at the whole business model brutally or you get someone else to
&gt; do the job, Mr. Casesa said.
&gt;
&gt; For his part, Mr. Ford said he heard the clock ticking, aware that his
&gt; familyÂs legacy was in danger of slipping away with every passing
&gt; second. ÂIÂm impatient, too, he said. ÂI have no patience for wasting
&gt; time.Â
&gt;
&gt; Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C @
&gt; <a href="http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt" target="_blank">http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt</a>
&gt;

Report this message

#3: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 16:40:49 by zwsdotcom

Picasso wrote:

&gt; They need to take some time and study the GE management style, and begin
&gt; to manage these people.

Ha, ha. Really, very humorous. This would be the same (Jack Welch)
management style that is now considered obsolete?

&lt;<a href="http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/10/magazines/fortune/rules.fortune/index.htm" target="_blank"> http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/10/magazines/fortune/rules.fort une/index.htm</a>&gt;

I work at a company that absorbed Welch's &quot;style&quot; and let me tell you -
it's way overdue for replacement.

Report this message

#4: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 17:13:32 by MikeHunt2

Better quality? In whose opinion? Vehicles built by Ford and GM have
outscored many of so called highly touted import brands in recently
published consumer surveys. Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of
the imports, as well.


mike hunt



&quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:F3sug.11134$<a href="mailto:pu3.256531&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.256531&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt; What they need, is to get the workers on board, make them realize a change
&gt; is necessary, and it doesn't mean paycuts, it means doing things more
&gt; efficiently, building better quality, with the people they have.
&gt;
&gt; They need to take some time and study the GE management style, and begin
&gt; to manage these people.
&gt;
&gt; Grover C. McCoury III wrote:
&gt;&gt; July 16, 2006
&gt;&gt; By Micheline Maynard
&gt;&gt; New York Times
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Dearborn, Mich.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; A fish tank as big as a flat-screen television dominates one wall of Bill
&gt;&gt; FordÂs office. Tulips, tired and randomly arranged, droop from vases on
&gt;&gt; nearby tables. A jumble of orchids and tropical plants compete for space
&gt;&gt; behind his desk, and a closet has a hidden espresso machine where Mr.
&gt;&gt; Ford, the Ford Motor CompanyÂs chief executive, retreats several times a
&gt;&gt; day to brew high-octane shots.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; If Mr. FordÂs office smacks of an overgrown boomerÂs pad, nearly
&gt;&gt; everything else around it offers a corporate version of Miss Havisham Â
&gt;&gt; from the automotive giantÂs headquarters, built in 1956 and known locally
&gt;&gt; as the Glass House, to the hallways dotted with stylized black-and-white
&gt;&gt; photographs from the companyÂs glory days decades ago.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; In the executive dining room, the last of its kind at DetroitÂs big
&gt;&gt; automakers, waitresses take orders from a multicourse menu and bring
&gt;&gt; silver finger bowls between the main course and dessert. Many of the
&gt;&gt; Glass HouseÂs walls, as well as the wood-paneled and softly lit lobby of
&gt;&gt; the companyÂs design center, feature portraits of Mr. FordÂs ancestors,
&gt;&gt; like his legendary great-grandfather Henry Ford, his grandfather Edsel
&gt;&gt; Ford and his father, William Clay Ford Sr.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The answer to whether Mr. FordÂs portrait will hang among them one day,
&gt;&gt; and whether there will eventually even be a headquarters where such
&gt;&gt; portraits can hang, now rests in his hands. He could either be the Ford
&gt;&gt; that resurrects one of the biggest companies on earth, or perhaps become
&gt;&gt; the last Ford to run it. Few are more aware of this than Mr. Ford
&gt;&gt; himself, who, at 49, holds a daunting trio of jobs, as chairman, chief
&gt;&gt; executive and, since earlier this month, chair of its executive operating
&gt;&gt; committee, making him FordÂs de facto chief operating officer, too.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂThereÂs nobody that has more at stake in this company than I do, he
&gt;&gt; said in a recent interview here. ÂNot just financially, but emotionally,
&gt;&gt; and historically and everything else.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mr. FordÂs challenges are extraordinary. His company reported losses of
&gt;&gt; $1.6 billion in North America last year and lost $1.2 billion worldwide
&gt;&gt; in the first quarter this year. On Thursday, Ford halved its quarterly
&gt;&gt; dividend to a nickel to preserve cash, and analysts expect the company to
&gt;&gt; report tepid second-quarter earnings this week. Many are already
&gt;&gt; forecasting a third-quarter loss. With analysts speculating that the
&gt;&gt; dividend cut means that FordÂs fortunes are worsening, Mr. Ford issued a
&gt;&gt; statement noting that Âthe headwinds we faced at the beginning of 2006
&gt;&gt; have only become stronger.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; As Mr. Ford tries to stem a slide that has taken his company from 25
&gt;&gt; percent of the American market in 2000 to about 18 percent now, he must
&gt;&gt; preserve his familyÂs legacy, fight off Asian automakers ferocious
&gt;&gt; assault on Detroit and somehow realize his ambition, as yet unfulfilled,
&gt;&gt; to make Ford the environmental leader among American auto companies.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; A casual and ebullient man, Mr. Ford personally owns 6.3 million Ford
&gt;&gt; shares, making him the companyÂs largest individual holder. The extended
&gt;&gt; Ford family as a whole, which reasserted itself five years ago when it
&gt;&gt; led the ouster of Jacques Nasser as chief executive and replaced him with
&gt;&gt; Mr. Ford, owns 40 percent of the companyÂs super-voting shares. Ever
&gt;&gt; since Mr. Ford assumed Mr. NasserÂs mantle, there have been doubts, some
&gt;&gt; only thinly veiled, among analysts, investors and employees that he has
&gt;&gt; the chops for the job.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; When he started, his widely held image was that of a reluctant executive
&gt;&gt; who would rather be practicing yoga, fly fishing or traveling somewhere
&gt;&gt; with his wife and four children than be corralled in his corner office.
&gt;&gt; Now, as he juggles an even more burdensome troika of job titles and
&gt;&gt; responsibilities, Mr. Ford says he is energized in a way that he was not
&gt;&gt; during his first years as chief executive.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂIÂm just a lot more comfortable in this job, he said. ÂI mean, you
&gt;&gt; know, to use a cliché, I think IÂve really grown in this job; but I think
&gt;&gt; itÂs also because my instincts were right.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; BUT while Mr. Ford has partially streamlined FordÂs bureaucracy and
&gt;&gt; become its public face during his tenure, some of his instincts have not
&gt;&gt; born fruit. A devoted environmentalist, he still bowed early on to the
&gt;&gt; wishes of FordÂs entrenched middle managers and senior executives who
&gt;&gt; wanted the company to keep churning out very profitable but gas-guzzling
&gt;&gt; sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks during a period when oil prices
&gt;&gt; were dirt cheap.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Had Mr. Ford produced more fuel-efficient vehicles like hybrids sooner,
&gt;&gt; he not only would have found his company keeping pace with nimble foreign
&gt;&gt; competitors like Toyota when oil prices spiked, but he also would have
&gt;&gt; been able to illustrate the bottom-line merit of his environmental
&gt;&gt; values. Instead, Ford, is again in the all-too-familiar spot of playing
&gt;&gt; corporate catch-up.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; As the entire American auto industry comes to grips with challenges that
&gt;&gt; threaten to permanently eclipse its dominance at home and abroad, and as
&gt;&gt; uncertainties about FordÂs future stir anxieties within his family, Mr.
&gt;&gt; Ford asserts that he and his company are responding to the monumental
&gt;&gt; shifts that are shaking the foundations of his business.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂThe world has played out like I thought it would, and itÂs given me not
&gt;&gt; only a renewed sense of confidence but one of urgency, he said. ÂThe
&gt;&gt; question is, what are we changing into and how fast can we get there?Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Not fast enough, say some. The stark reality, which Ford as well as
&gt;&gt; General Motors need to accept, analysts say, is that the companies fates
&gt;&gt; now hang in the balance.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂBoth these companies could fail, said John Casesa, a veteran auto
&gt;&gt; industry analyst who runs his own consulting firm. ÂThatÂs how
&gt;&gt; fundamental the problems are in Detroit.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; A few miles east of Mr. FordÂs office, dozens of visitors from as far
&gt;&gt; away as Australia line up each day to tour FordÂs newest assembly plant
&gt;&gt; inside the sprawling River Rouge complex, whose largely vacant buildings
&gt;&gt; once ranked among the biggest industrial centers in the world. They start
&gt;&gt; their tour at the plant, which opened two years ago, by watching a film
&gt;&gt; that depicts the life of Henry Ford and the activities of succeeding
&gt;&gt; generations of Fords.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; They can look out at 1,500 trees surrounding the complex or learn that
&gt;&gt; the new plantÂs roof, covered with tough, bushy sedum, is part of Mr.
&gt;&gt; FordÂs goal of building a Âgreen factory, one that will help restore the
&gt;&gt; environment rather than pollute the surrounding skies with filthy smoke
&gt;&gt; as the Rouge complex once did. On an ideal day, tourists also can watch
&gt;&gt; Ford workers building the big F-Series pickup truck, the countryÂs
&gt;&gt; best-selling vehicle for almost 30 years running, and the indisputable
&gt;&gt; gusher in FordÂs revenue stream.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Sometimes, though, tourists go home without seeing any trucks glide down
&gt;&gt; the assembly line, idled occasionally because it makes no sense to ship
&gt;&gt; vehicles that dealers cannot sell. Even so, Mr. Ford considers the new
&gt;&gt; plant as one of his most important victories over company executives who
&gt;&gt; argued that it was an expensive folly.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Completing the plant Âvalidated him, Mr. Ford said. ÂI got very little
&gt;&gt; support, he recalled, Âand yet I said: ÂWeÂre going to do it. WeÂre just
&gt;&gt; going to do it. Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mr. Ford will need that firmness of mind if he intends to preserve three
&gt;&gt; things he says are of paramount importance to him at Ford: the company
&gt;&gt; itself, his familyÂs legacy and a clean environmental record. He has
&gt;&gt; foregone a salary over the last year and said he intended to keep it that
&gt;&gt; way until he successfully revived FordÂs fortunes.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The familyÂs financial stake in Ford, including nonvoting common stock
&gt;&gt; and a more powerful and separate class of voting shares, is currently
&gt;&gt; worth approximately $460 million, down almost half since Ford celebrated
&gt;&gt; its 100th corporate birthday three years ago; Mr. FordÂs personal stake
&gt;&gt; is worth about $43 million. A combination of financial self-interest and
&gt;&gt; a prized familial legacy makes Mr. FordÂs tasks more personally
&gt;&gt; imperative than they might typically be at other public companies in need
&gt;&gt; of a turnaround  like G.M., for example, whose headquarters Mr. Ford can
&gt;&gt; spy from his office on a clear day.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; As Mr. Ford watches G.M. entertain a potentially historic alliance with a
&gt;&gt; French automaker, Renault, and a Japanese automaker, Nissan, he says he
&gt;&gt; will not rule out a similar path for his company, which already has
&gt;&gt; management control of another Japanese auto company, Mazda. But Mr. Ford
&gt;&gt; said he had more pressing concerns. ÂRegardless of any deal that we might
&gt;&gt; envision, he said, Âthe fact is that we have to fix our North American
&gt;&gt; business.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The companyÂs North American operation is hamstrung by lackluster product
&gt;&gt; lines, heavy losses that have delayed new vehicle development and, until
&gt;&gt; recently, constant executive turnover that forced underlings to wait
&gt;&gt; until new bosses came on board. Mr. Ford has to tackle all of these
&gt;&gt; problems while overseeing a potentially backbreaking combination of jobs.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂIt defies my imagination how he can get through a day with the proper
&gt;&gt; amount of attention to each position, said Michael Useem, a management
&gt;&gt; professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. ÂIf he
&gt;&gt; can, more power to him.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; MR. FORD said his biggest challenge is time management, as well as a
&gt;&gt; constant switching of corporate roles. In one moment, he occupies FordÂs
&gt;&gt; conceptual role as chairman; in the next, a strategic role as chief
&gt;&gt; executive; and in the next, the nitty-gritty management role of
&gt;&gt; overseeing daily operations. ÂI canÂt delegate to anybody, he said.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Why take all of that on? Because controlling those jobs is how Mr. Ford
&gt;&gt; believes that he can get his own way inside an unyielding corporate
&gt;&gt; bureaucracy  something that he says has not occurred earlier despite his
&gt;&gt; name and apparent clout. Mr. Ford bluntly contends that managers stymied
&gt;&gt; him, as both chairman and chief executive, by getting in the way of
&gt;&gt; projects like the Rouge plant and a hybrid version of the Ford Escape, a
&gt;&gt; small sport utility vehicle
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The Escape Hybrid, which Ford began developing in 1998 in response to
&gt;&gt; ToyotaÂs hybrid plans, languished for nearly six years before reaching
&gt;&gt; the market. Even then, Mr. Ford said, he had to fight with marketing
&gt;&gt; officials who argued that there was no point spending much money on a
&gt;&gt; vehicle that generated sales of only 20,000 units a year, despite its
&gt;&gt; symbolism as the first hybrid from a Detroit car company.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mr. Ford contends that projects like the hybrid Escape will move more
&gt;&gt; swiftly with his own handpicked team members in place, the most crucial
&gt;&gt; of whom is his new chief of staff, Steven K. Hamp, his closest friend,
&gt;&gt; brother-in-law and determined gatekeeper. ÂHe has probably voiced every
&gt;&gt; frustration you can imagine to me with respect to this company, said Mr.
&gt;&gt; Hamp, who previously ran the world-famous Henry Ford Museum and is
&gt;&gt; married to Mr. FordÂs sister, Sheila.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Associates say Mr. Ford endured years of condescending behavior by
&gt;&gt; subordinates who considered his wealth and interest in social causes no
&gt;&gt; match for the years they had toiled in the companyÂs trenches, even
&gt;&gt; though Mr. Ford himself spent more than 20 years in a variety of
&gt;&gt; lower-level jobs. They also say that other executives, who spent as much
&gt;&gt; time managing their careers as they did managing the company, saw Mr.
&gt;&gt; Ford as a roadblock to the top and tried to undermine him. Yet, others
&gt;&gt; see these complaints as excuses for actions that Mr. Ford did not take.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂI donÂt think Ford has suffered from a lack of talent the past 15
&gt;&gt; years, Mr. Casesa said. ÂThe issue is strategy and implementation,
&gt;&gt; rather than the people involved.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; EARLIER this year, an entire table of Mr. FordÂs relatives  his cousins
&gt;&gt; Edsel B. Ford II and Elena Ford, and EdselÂs son, Henry Ford III Â looked
&gt;&gt; on during a luncheon at the Detroit Athletic Club as Mr. Ford was named
&gt;&gt; automotive executive of the year. Despite the united front, Mr. Ford
&gt;&gt; acknowledges that family members are concerned about FordÂs declining
&gt;&gt; fortunes, and its stock price, which, at $6.38, is cheaper than a pound
&gt;&gt; of coffee at Starbucks, where Mr. Ford could once escape anonymously
&gt;&gt; during the workday. (Having relocated his family from tony Grosse Pointe
&gt;&gt; a few years ago, he still drops in to local coffee shops in the college
&gt;&gt; town they now call home, Ann Arbor.)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; While declining to speak for the family, Mr. Hamp also acknowledged its
&gt;&gt; apprehensions. ÂTheyÂre very intelligent people who have observed this
&gt;&gt; company for a long time; they recognize the challenges that this company
&gt;&gt; faces, he said. ÂThey have, itÂs fair to say, as many concerns as anyone
&gt;&gt; else  board member, investor, employee.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Those concerns helped convince Mr. Ford to take on the job of chief
&gt;&gt; operating officer, and Mr. Hamp helps him decide which meetings and
&gt;&gt; projects deserve his attention. Mr. Hamp said he encouraged Mr. Ford to
&gt;&gt; remember that Âwe need to go faster, we need to make decisions more
&gt;&gt; quickly, we need to cut costs and we need to do those things that are a
&gt;&gt; part of an organization that needs to fix its problems.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mr. Ford is stressing that same message to his executive team. This
&gt;&gt; spring, he took a dozen of FordÂs most senior executives to a Michigan
&gt;&gt; resort for a combination Big Chill-style bonding and brainstorming
&gt;&gt; weekend, intended to lay the groundwork for his assumption of greater
&gt;&gt; operating duties. The executives cooked a salmon dinner together, with
&gt;&gt; Mr. Ford, a vegetarian, in charge of the brown rice. They spent hours
&gt;&gt; talking about his turnaround plan, called Âthe Way Forward, which he
&gt;&gt; rolled out at a splashy news conference in January and which calls for
&gt;&gt; the company to close two dozen plants and eliminate 30,000 jobs through
&gt;&gt; 2010.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mr. Ford vowed to slow and then reverse the companyÂs market-share slide
&gt;&gt; and to return to profitability by 2008. Yet much about his approach
&gt;&gt; remains unclear, particularly where his devotion to the environment is
&gt;&gt; concerned. Although Ford has promoted its commitment to hybrids in
&gt;&gt; television commercials featuring Kermit the Frog, last month it backed
&gt;&gt; off plans to build 250,000 hybrid vehicles a year by 2010. Instead, Ford
&gt;&gt; said it would double the number of flexible fuel vehicles it produces, to
&gt;&gt; two million a year by 2010, while continuing to develop hybrid vehicles.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; It was the second time during Mr. FordÂs tenure in the senior ranks that
&gt;&gt; the company had reneged on an environmental promise. In 2000, when he was
&gt;&gt; chairman, it pledged a 25 percent improvement in the fuel efficiency of
&gt;&gt; its S.U.V.Âs by 2005. But the effort was set aside in 2002, because Ford
&gt;&gt; did not have the technology to achieve it, Mr. Ford told shareholders in
&gt;&gt; an environmental report.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂHe held himself out as the great green hope, said Daniel Becker,
&gt;&gt; director of the Sierra ClubÂs global warming program. ÂThe fear is that
&gt;&gt; he will turn into the great green hoax.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mr. Ford, accustomed to such criticism, says the company needs to keep
&gt;&gt; its options open. Technology is developing so rapidly, he says, that
&gt;&gt; hybrids may not be the way to go, even though Toyota, the acknowledged
&gt;&gt; leader in hybrid development, plans to have one million hybrids on the
&gt;&gt; road by the end of the decade. Green debate aside, however, it will not
&gt;&gt; be hybrids or fuel-efficient vehicles that end FordÂs slide: it will be
&gt;&gt; an overall fleet of attractive, reliable cars that can battle Toyota and
&gt;&gt; other auto companies for buyers.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; FordÂs lineup includes two hits: the Mustang and the Fusion, one of three
&gt;&gt; midsized cars that the company rolled out in the last year. Thanks to
&gt;&gt; this pair, FordÂs car sales are up this year even though its overall
&gt;&gt; sales and market share are down from 2005, continuing a decline that
&gt;&gt; began around the start of the decade. FordÂs overreliance on pickup
&gt;&gt; trucks and S.U.V.Âs has hurt it. The latest version of the Explorer, long
&gt;&gt; its best-selling sport utility, made its debut last fall just as gas
&gt;&gt; prices began soaring; sales of the vehicle have slumped.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Consumers, meanwhile, are clamoring for fuel-efficient small cars, but in
&gt;&gt; the United States Ford does not sell anything smaller than the Focus,
&gt;&gt; leaving a missing rung at the bottom of its product ladder and another
&gt;&gt; gap in its pro-environment philosophy. To jump-start things, Ford
&gt;&gt; executives say, they have to develop vehicles they can sell without
&gt;&gt; discounts and which buyers will load with expensive options like
&gt;&gt; navigation systems and powerful engines. The Way Forward pins FordÂs
&gt;&gt; hopes on innovation, which Mr. Ford says is exemplified by cars like the
&gt;&gt; Escape Hybrid, the Fusion and the Mustang.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; But most of FordÂs new cars are less distinctive. Embracing a trend
&gt;&gt; started by Toyota in the mid-1990Âs, Ford is rushing to bring out more
&gt;&gt; crossover vehicles, like the Edge, an S.U.V. built on a standard
&gt;&gt; automobile platform. Analysts say those vehicles are by nature
&gt;&gt; utilitarian and likely to inspire little lust in buyers hearts.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂThere is no evidence of a huge product offensive, said Stefano Aversa,
&gt;&gt; chief operating officer at Alix Partners, a firm that specializes in
&gt;&gt; corporate restructuring. ÂIÂll be pleasantly surprised if I see 10 new
&gt;&gt; products. I donÂt see any of them coming yet.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Ford also has to overcome a reputation for turning out merely serviceable
&gt;&gt; products, said Brian Moody, a road test editor at Edmunds.com, a Web site
&gt;&gt; that dispenses car-buying advice. Vanilla-flavored cars might work fine
&gt;&gt; for Toyota, which honed its reputation for quality over decades, and a
&gt;&gt; conservative approach might have been acceptable in an earlier era, when
&gt;&gt; Detroit companies dominated the American market, he said. But with
&gt;&gt; DetroitÂs market share reaching all-time lows, Ford needs to exceed
&gt;&gt; customers expectations in order to keep up with Japanese and Korean
&gt;&gt; carmakers, which are increasingly attracting FordÂs loyal, largely
&gt;&gt; middle-class customers.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂIf the car isnÂt good, if the truck isnÂt good, people arenÂt going to
&gt;&gt; buy it just because itÂs a Ford, Mr. Moody said.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; FORD needs to act quickly on its vow to innovate. Toyota blew by
&gt;&gt; DaimlerChrysler this spring to claim the No. 3 spot in American auto
&gt;&gt; sales. Next in ToyotaÂs sights is Ford. True innovation, as illustrated
&gt;&gt; by vehicles like ToyotaÂs popular Prius, is an elusive goal in an
&gt;&gt; industry that typically needs more than three years to bring its cars to
&gt;&gt; life. That may be more time than Mr. Ford has  and he is battling a
&gt;&gt; culture that still clings to some vestiges of its more prosperous past.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Insiders have often likened FordÂs middle management to a marshmallow:
&gt;&gt; push on it and it dents; after a short while it just springs back into
&gt;&gt; shape. To be sure, Ford managers have also had to endure a barrage of
&gt;&gt; improvement efforts through the years, from the quality-focused teachings
&gt;&gt; of Dr. W. Edwards Deming, to Six Sigma quality-control methodologies to
&gt;&gt; globalization plans. Hoping to avoid the flavor-of-the-month trap, Mr.
&gt;&gt; Ford says he is examining all aspects of the way Ford operates,
&gt;&gt; Âeverything from small things like how weÂre going to treat each other in
&gt;&gt; meetings to very big things like what about the trappings of our job?Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Analysts say frills like FordÂs executive dining room send messages that
&gt;&gt; the Way Forward plan, with its focus on doing more with less, is for the
&gt;&gt; grunts only, while top executives, whose Glass House offices are reached
&gt;&gt; by climbing a curved staircase behind a security guard, still enjoy
&gt;&gt; creature comforts.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ÂThere should be signals, Mr. Aversa said. ÂWhen things go well, you can
&gt;&gt; take your time and plan for the long term. But when things go rough, you
&gt;&gt; have to execute and do things with a sense of urgency.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Last weekÂs dividend cut may be one such signal, but whether the Way
&gt;&gt; Forward is the plan and Mr. Ford the right executive to carry it out
&gt;&gt; remain topics of debate among analysts. ÂEither you intensify this plan
&gt;&gt; and look at the whole business model brutally or you get someone else to
&gt;&gt; do the job, Mr. Casesa said.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; For his part, Mr. Ford said he heard the clock ticking, aware that his
&gt;&gt; familyÂs legacy was in danger of slipping away with every passing second.
&gt;&gt; ÂIÂm impatient, too, he said. ÂI have no patience for wasting time.Â
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C @
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt" target="_blank">http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt</a>
&gt;&gt;

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#5: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 17:42:21 by tom

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what exactly is your point, other than proving to us you know how to =
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#6: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 18:24:05 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#7: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 18:25:14 by Whitelightning

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:2IednddCIsICyifZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">2IednddCIsICyifZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; Better quality? In whose opinion? Vehicles built by Ford and GM have
&gt; outscored many of so called highly touted import brands in recently
&gt; published consumer surveys. Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY
of
&gt; the imports, as well.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
Don't you know, if its made anywhere else in the world it has to be better
than anything made here? (very very deep sarcasm here)
Hell I have people I know tell me a Toyota made in Japan is a better car
than one made in in Tenn. I personally would like to buy them a one way
steerage class ticket on a slow freighter to Japan. I do believe the ad
people for Ford and GM need to get off their collective asses and start
putting some good advertising out there, its down right lame. I will give
Mitsubishi credit for some very slick advertising, even if it is one of the
biggest pieces shit on the road.

Whitelightning

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#8: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 18:55:23 by Whitelightning

&quot;lymee&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:eLtug.7103$<a href="mailto:gT3.1555&#64;fe09.lga..." target="_blank">gT3.1555&#64;fe09.lga...</a>
&gt; Because GM cars are dull.
&gt; They look dull.
&gt; The colors are boring and the styling looks like they took 1970's/80's
&gt; notchback cars like the Buick Regal, Monte Carlo etc and rounded off the
&gt; corners. The insides still scream OLD FART CLUB (of which I am a proud
&gt; member of at 46yo) even though the motors are starting to come back.
&gt;
&gt; What rocket scientist put the fire breathing V8 in a FWD car, the
&gt; MonteCarlo?

Why not, lets see, Olds Tornado, Caddilac Eldarado, Coupe DeVille, STS,
Buick Rivera to
name a few. The Toronado set up was so bullet proof GMC used it in its RV
they offered in the 70's and early 80's that still has a cult following with
almost 75% of those sold still on the road.

&gt; Even Dodge had the good sense to go RWD with it's Hemi's and although the
&gt; styling doesn't appeal to everyone at least they took a chance.
&gt; the interiors are very modern with a touch of retro and well done too.

Probably because of Mercedes owning them, Mercedes is stil rear wheel drive.
And the hemi is a marketing ploy to the inth degree, to compare what they
are offering
today to the 426 hemis of the late 60's and 70's is a joke.
&gt;
&gt; The Malibu, Cobalt and Impala are other snoozers except maybe for the
&gt; Cobalt in SS trim which is nice but rough around the edges especially in
&gt; the handling department.

I rather like the Monte Carlo, but the Impala misses the mark
&gt;
&gt; In contrast, the new Ford Mustang was a stroke of genious.

I will agree, with the exception of the rear quarter windows the car is
sharp,
me thinks it needs some chrome in the bumper areas though..
But the rest of the line up looks like they just stretched the designs.
The Ranger has a better profile than the Colorado

&gt;
&gt; Ford IMHO has one problem and it is the same problem as GM.
&gt; They bought way too heavily into the super sized SUV market and
&gt; now that gas prices are skyrocketing it is coming back to get them.
&gt; Unlike GM though, Ford was smart enough to offer some hybrids and even
&gt; though they kinda suck(very high repair costs) it is good for public
&gt; relations and people are buying them.

They built what was selling, and the japs jumped on board as well, Honda and
Toyota both offering full size v-8 powered rigs now.
&gt;
&gt; I think the big three really have to do some serious market research, hire
&gt; some talented designers with fresh ideas and look toward the future (like
&gt; Japanese companies) instead of a quarterly bottom line.

They need better advertising.

Whitelightning

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#9: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 19:53:53 by FanJet

Grover C. McCoury III wrote:
&gt; July 16, 2006
&gt;

Bill Ford needs a product like Bill Gates:

Costs virtually nothing to make, distribute &amp; sell with absolutely no
warranty whatever. You know it doesn't work correctly from day-one so you
get the government to OK that *and* you get the customers to pay *you* to
fix it - over and over and over again. When the customers get sick of that,
you paint it a different color and start all over.

During the worst period in Ford history (I'm sure that could be argued to
death), a single days output from one Ford plant would be worth more than 5
years of anything Microsoft has foisted on an its consumer base.

Funny world!

&gt; Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C @
&gt; <a href="http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt" target="_blank">http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt</a>

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#10: Re: Is Grover Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 20:03:04 by Jim Warman

We often see references to management &quot;shortchanging&quot; labour.... I have no
doubt that it happens. At the same time, labour is busy trying to
&quot;shortchange&quot; management. It's no secret that the big cats get the fat
canaries... each of us only needs to look as far as our local/municipal/
federal governments.

At the same time, we regularly see employees trying to do as little as
possible while maintaining a paycheck. There ain't anyone right.... but the
pot is calling the kettle black.

Going out on a limb.... when I close my eyes and try to picture &quot;Grover&quot;...
I see someone taking an &quot;unregulated&quot; break from his telemarketting duties
(go ahead - call me at supper time) and plagiarizing a news article for no
apparent reason.

Bottom line - so f*cking what. I drive what I drive - not what Grover thinks
I should drive. Pardon me for being me....

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#11: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 20:51:38 by MikeHunt2

GM and Ford are finally advertising the fact they have more vehicles, than
any of the imports, that get 30 MPG or more. Many mistakenly believe they
need to buy an import to get decent fuel mileage. GM, Ford and Chrysler
even offers car with V8 that can get 25 MPG or more.

One of my friends owns a 2005 Pruis and a 2006 Milan. For the way he used
his vehicles the Prius is averaging 33 MPG, the Milan 30. The Pruis cost
him $26,000, the Milan $18,000. If he had another Milan, the $8,000
difference will buy all of the gas for the Milan for around six years ;)


mike hunt




&quot;Whitelightning&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:KLtug.2334$<a href="mailto:rT6.1712&#64;trnddc03..." target="_blank">rT6.1712&#64;trnddc03...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:2IednddCIsICyifZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">2IednddCIsICyifZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Better quality? In whose opinion? Vehicles built by Ford and GM have
&gt;&gt; outscored many of so called highly touted import brands in recently
&gt;&gt; published consumer surveys. Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY
&gt; of
&gt;&gt; the imports, as well.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;&gt;
&gt; Don't you know, if its made anywhere else in the world it has to be better
&gt; than anything made here? (very very deep sarcasm here)
&gt; Hell I have people I know tell me a Toyota made in Japan is a better car
&gt; than one made in in Tenn. I personally would like to buy them a one way
&gt; steerage class ticket on a slow freighter to Japan. I do believe the ad
&gt; people for Ford and GM need to get off their collective asses and start
&gt; putting some good advertising out there, its down right lame. I will
&gt; give
&gt; Mitsubishi credit for some very slick advertising, even if it is one of
&gt; the
&gt; biggest pieces shit on the road.
&gt;
&gt; Whitelightning
&gt;
&gt;

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#12: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 20:54:30 by MikeHunt2

Can we assume you are stuck with a MAC? ;)


mike


&quot;FanJet&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:FanJet27&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">FanJet27&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:44ba7d24$0$3649$<a href="mailto:4d3efbfe&#64;news.sover.net..." target="_blank">4d3efbfe&#64;news.sover.net...</a>
&gt; Grover C. McCoury III wrote:
&gt;&gt; July 16, 2006
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Bill Ford needs a product like Bill Gates:
&gt;
&gt; Costs virtually nothing to make, distribute &amp; sell with absolutely no
&gt; warranty whatever. You know it doesn't work correctly from day-one so you
&gt; get the government to OK that *and* you get the customers to pay *you* to
&gt; fix it - over and over and over again. When the customers get sick of
&gt; that, you paint it a different color and start all over.
&gt;

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#13: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 22:05:39 by Mark Jones

Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; GM and Ford are finally advertising the fact they have more vehicles,
&gt; than any of the imports, that get 30 MPG or more. Many mistakenly
&gt; believe they need to buy an import to get decent fuel mileage. GM,
&gt; Ford and Chrysler even offers car with V8 that can get 25 MPG or more.

My 1994 Corvette with the optional performance rear gears
gets 25 mpg, so getting 25 mpg from a car is really not that
much of a challenge for Ford and GM.

When my 2004 F-150 4x4 is paid off next fall, I intend to
trade it in on a new Ford truck. Probably an F-250. My F-150
has been flawless. It is the best vehicle I have ever owned.

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#14: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 22:18:09 by aarcuda69062

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:sN6dnfqFjNL1FifZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net" target="_blank">sN6dnfqFjNL1FifZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net</a>&gt;,
&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Can we assume you are stuck with a MAC? ;)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike

Only if he has WiFi.

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#15: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 23:05:37 by My Names Nobody

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What the hell is your point, Tom??? Other than proving that you can ass =
for no particular reason?=20

These are the kind of heads up I appreciate from the Usenet groups I =
frequent. I can't keep abreast of everything, and I appreciate people =
posting noteworthy on topic information here.=20

&quot;Tom&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tjctransport&#64;optonline.net" target="_blank">tjctransport&#64;optonline.net</a>&gt; wrote in message =
news:p8tug.7097$<a href="mailto:gT3.1328&#64;fe09.lga..." target="_blank">gT3.1328&#64;fe09.lga...</a>
what exactly is your point, other than proving to us you know how to =
copy and paste????
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&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;What the hell is your point, =
Tom???&amp;nbsp; Other=20
than proving that you can ass for no particular reason? &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;These are the kind of heads up I =
appreciate from=20
the Usenet groups I frequent.&amp;nbsp; I can't keep abreast of everything, =
and I=20
appreciate people posting noteworthy on topic information here. =
&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D&quot;PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px&quot;&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&quot;Tom&quot; &amp;lt;&lt;A=20
=
href=3D&quot;mailto:<a href="mailto:tjctransport&#64;optonline.net" target="_blank">tjctransport&#64;optonline.net</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="mailto:tjctransport&#64;optonline.net" target="_blank">tjctransport&#64;optonline.net</a>&lt;/A&gt;=
&amp;gt;=20
wrote in message &lt;A=20
=
href=3D&quot;news:p8tug.7097$<a href="mailto:gT3.1328&#64;fe09.lga" target="_blank">gT3.1328&#64;fe09.lga</a>&quot;&gt;news:p8tug.7097$<a href="mailto:gT3.1328&#64;fe09." target="_blank">gT3.1328&#64;fe09.</a>=
lga&lt;/A&gt;...&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;what exactly is your point, other =
than proving to=20
us you know how to copy and =
paste????&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;&lt;/BODY&gt;&lt;/HTML&gt;

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#16: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 23:31:32 by unknown

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#17: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 23:41:42 by FanJet

Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; Can we assume you are stuck with a MAC? ;)
&gt;
Hell no. Governments everywhere, large and small, are like mastodons in a
tarpit. They know they've been taken but they'll pay anything to make it
look like they haven't, just a hint that things work like the salesman said.
I do that for them. Or, more precisely, like Microsoft, to them.

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#18: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 23:41:42 by Picasso

<a href="mailto:zwsdotcom&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">zwsdotcom&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:
&gt; Picasso wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; They need to take some time and study the GE management style, and begin
&gt;&gt; to manage these people.
&gt;
&gt; Ha, ha. Really, very humorous. This would be the same (Jack Welch)
&gt; management style that is now considered obsolete?
&gt;
&gt; &lt;<a href="http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/10/magazines/fortune/rules.fortune/index.htm" target="_blank"> http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/10/magazines/fortune/rules.fort une/index.htm</a>&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I work at a company that absorbed Welch's &quot;style&quot; and let me tell you -
&gt; it's way overdue for replacement.
&gt;


Its a good place to base a start. It is by no means perfect, but the
essentials of it are still studied. It was the right thing, the right
time for the company. Much of it can still be applied.

If you think his management is so hokey, lets see your ideas?

It is by NO MEANS Obsolete!

A little blurb on CNN.com is not going to set the pace, that's for sure.

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#19: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 23:41:42 by Picasso

Mark Jones wrote:
&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt; GM and Ford are finally advertising the fact they have more vehicles,
&gt;&gt; than any of the imports, that get 30 MPG or more. Many mistakenly
&gt;&gt; believe they need to buy an import to get decent fuel mileage. GM,
&gt;&gt; Ford and Chrysler even offers car with V8 that can get 25 MPG or more.
&gt;
&gt; My 1994 Corvette with the optional performance rear gears
&gt; gets 25 mpg, so getting 25 mpg from a car is really not that
&gt; much of a challenge for Ford and GM.
&gt;
&gt; When my 2004 F-150 4x4 is paid off next fall, I intend to
&gt; trade it in on a new Ford truck. Probably an F-250. My F-150
&gt; has been flawless. It is the best vehicle I have ever owned.
&gt;
&gt;


F150's are damn solid trucks. I wish they still made the light duty
f250. But anyway, the F150's are still good vehicles.

If i had the money, I would try a 250 or 350 diesel.

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#20: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 23:41:42 by Picasso

What chages are they planning for the mustang?

The mustang GT is a well done piece. Best bang for your buck for sure,
if you are looking for good styling, good power, and a good daily drive.
I don't know why you would look any further, even if the camaro was
still around, it's styling looked like a riced out firebird from 1993,
and didn't even perform overly impressively. It would probally still be
overpriced even if it was there to compete...

lymee wrote:
&gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 10:05:36 -0400, Grover C. McCoury III wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; July 16, 2006
&gt; Snip...
&gt;
&gt; Where I live there is a Ford dealer right next to a GM dealer and despite
&gt; my having been a Chevy guy for a long time, I'm going to buy a Ford this
&gt; time around.
&gt; Mustang to be exact.
&gt;
&gt; Why?
&gt;
&gt; Because GM cars are dull.
&gt; They look dull.
&gt; The colors are boring and the styling looks like they took 1970's/80's
&gt; notchback cars like the Buick Regal, Monte Carlo etc and rounded off the
&gt; corners. The insides still scream OLD FART CLUB (of which I am a proud
&gt; member of at 46yo) even though the motors are starting to come back.
&gt;
&gt; What rocket scientist put the fire breathing V8 in a FWD car, the
&gt; MonteCarlo?
&gt;
&gt; Even Dodge had the good sense to go RWD with it's Hemi's and although the
&gt; styling doesn't appeal to everyone at least they took a chance.
&gt; the interiors are very modern with a touch of retro and well done too.
&gt;
&gt; The Malibu, Cobalt and Impala are other snoozers except maybe for the
&gt; Cobalt in SS trim which is nice but rough around the edges especially in
&gt; the handling department.
&gt;
&gt; In contrast, the new Ford Mustang was a stroke of genious.
&gt; I just hope Ford doesn't screw it up with the rumored changes they are
&gt; making next year.
&gt;
&gt; Ford IMHO has one problem and it is the same problem as GM.
&gt; They bought way too heavily into the super sized SUV market and
&gt; now that gas prices are skyrocketing it is coming back to get them.
&gt; Unlike GM though, Ford was smart enough to offer some hybrids and even
&gt; though they kinda suck(very high repair costs) it is good for public
&gt; relations and people are buying them.
&gt;
&gt; I think the big three really have to do some serious market research, hire
&gt; some talented designers with fresh ideas and look toward the future (like
&gt; Japanese companies) instead of a quarterly bottom line.
&gt;

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#21: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 23:41:42 by Picasso

I wouldn't go as far to say the toyota &amp; honda's are fullsize. I would
call them a midsize pickup.


&gt;
&gt; They built what was selling, and the japs jumped on board as well, Honda and
&gt; Toyota both offering full size v-8 powered rigs now.
&gt;&gt; I think the big three really have to do some serious market research, hire
&gt;&gt; some talented designers with fresh ideas and look toward the future (like
&gt;&gt; Japanese companies) instead of a quarterly bottom line.
&gt;
&gt; They need better advertising.
&gt;
&gt; Whitelightning
&gt;
&gt;

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#22: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-16 23:41:42 by unknown

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#23: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 01:56:42 by Picasso

long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P

I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them! hahaha

lymee wrote:
&gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:27:29 +0000, Picasso wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; What chages are they planning for the mustang?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The mustang GT is a well done piece. Best bang for your buck for sure,
&gt;&gt; if you are looking for good styling, good power, and a good daily drive.
&gt;&gt; I don't know why you would look any further, even if the camaro was
&gt;&gt; still around, it's styling looked like a riced out firebird from 1993,
&gt;&gt; and didn't even perform overly impressively. It would probally still be
&gt;&gt; overpriced even if it was there to compete...
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I don't know.
&gt; I read somewhere that every body panel is being reworked along with a new
&gt; V6 motor.
&gt; Might just be rumour.
&gt; Might be too many beers while surfing the net :)
&gt;
&gt; Anyone??
&gt;
&gt;

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#24: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 02:11:59 by zwsdotcom

Picasso wrote:

&gt; Its a good place to base a start. It is by no means perfect, but the

It's like pulling a robber baron out of the pre-Depression era and
giving him the helm of a modern company. Business is evolving, and it
does NOT make sense to base your future on old formulas.

Management styles are like any other technology. Take as a very good
analogy black and white TV - it went through a period of being
state-of-the-art and expensive but sought-after, then affordable and
owned by everyone, and now it is virtually free ($9.95 will buy you a
B&amp;W television set, brand new) but nobody wants it because it has been
superseded by superior products. Free-to-air TV signals still work on
an old TV but you're missing a lot. When digital comes in, B&amp;W TV sets
will be completely worthless.

Welch's pontificatory writings are in the same spot as B&amp;W TV. His
ideas are still backwards compatible with modern businesses - JUST. So
they have some use, but it's small and dwindling. It would be stupid to
set up a facility manufacturing CRTs with blue-white TV-grade phosphors
right now, and it would be equally stupid to &quot;turn around&quot; a business
into a known dead end like GE's methodologies. Even GE is changing.

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#25: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 02:36:14 by Whitelightning

&quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:_mAug.11405$<a href="mailto:pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt;
&gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them! hahaha
&gt;
Careful now, lol. In 1985 one of the performance mags did a head to head to
find the &quot;fastest&quot;
production car. Of course the Corvette won hands down over all even after
Chevrolet made them put a roll cage in the car and locked out 6th gear on
the tranny, the Camaro IROC nudged out the Pontiac Firebird for 2 nd place,
and forth place went to the Buick Grand National, which beat the Firebird
for top end, but got beat bad in the 1/4 mile, but the big surprise was the
Dodge Omni GLH whooped the 5.0 Ford Mustang, not just on top end, but in the
1/4 mile as well.. A couple years later the Omni was gone, as was the Grand
National, but the big upset winners were both GM trucks, the Cyclone, and
the Typhoon, which almost beat the damn Corvette in the 1/4 mile.

Whitelightning

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#26: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 02:46:57 by unknown

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#27: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 05:26:26 by Whitelightning

&quot;David M&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:NOSPAM&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">NOSPAM&#64;nospam.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:56Bug.20412$<a href="mailto:so3.10675&#64;southeast.rr.com..." target="_blank">so3.10675&#64;southeast.rr.com...</a>
&gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:56:42 +0000, Picasso rearranged some electrons to
&gt; form:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt; &gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt; &gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them!
hahaha
&gt;
&gt; If you actually drove a new Mustang with the V6, you might think again.
&gt; It really runs pretty good, for a 6-cyl.
&gt;
&gt;
Imagine it with a super charger like the Cobalt SS.

Whitelightning

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#28: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 05:45:46 by My Names Nobody

&quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:v0zug.11376$<a href="mailto:pu3.260760&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.260760&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt; Mark Jones wrote:
&gt;&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; GM and Ford are finally advertising the fact they have more vehicles,
&gt;&gt;&gt; than any of the imports, that get 30 MPG or more. Many mistakenly
&gt;&gt;&gt; believe they need to buy an import to get decent fuel mileage. GM,
&gt;&gt;&gt; Ford and Chrysler even offers car with V8 that can get 25 MPG or more.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; My 1994 Corvette with the optional performance rear gears
&gt;&gt; gets 25 mpg, so getting 25 mpg from a car is really not that
&gt;&gt; much of a challenge for Ford and GM.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; When my 2004 F-150 4x4 is paid off next fall, I intend to
&gt;&gt; trade it in on a new Ford truck. Probably an F-250. My F-150
&gt;&gt; has been flawless. It is the best vehicle I have ever owned.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; F150's are damn solid trucks. I wish they still made the light duty f250.
&gt; But anyway, the F150's are still good vehicles.
&gt;
&gt; If i had the money, I would try a 250 or 350 diesel.

Light duty F-250's??? What year was that? Every year I'm familiar with
share axels, brakes and springs with the F-350. I do know Chevy made
half-ton based light duty 3/4 ton trucks, I'm not aware of a Ford light duty
F-250.

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#29: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 05:55:28 by rantonrave

Mike Hunter wrote:

&gt;Better quality? In whose opinion?

J.D. Powers, Consumer Reports, Popular Mechanics, Gelco Leasing,
dealers that sell both Japanese, American, and Chrysler brands, and
even the internal reports of Ford and GM.

&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.

Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is bigger
than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?). GM is
also #1 in China, but again, so what? For a business with such large
economies of scale as the car industry, worldwide sales matter more,
and here GM will soon be overtaken, unless it merges with
Renault/Nissan. GM and Ford have got to bring out new best-in-class
vehicles, and they haven't been doing that much, GM perhaps not at
all.. Rick Wagoner and Bill Ford need to understand, &quot;It's the
vehicles, stupid.&quot;

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#30: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 06:19:11 by rantonrave

<a href="mailto:zwsdotcom&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">zwsdotcom&#64;gmail.com</a> wrote:

&gt;Picasso wrote:

&gt;&gt;They need to take some time and study the GE management style, and begin
&gt;&gt;to manage these people.

&gt;Ha, ha. Really, very humorous. This would be the same (Jack Welch)
&gt;management style that is now considered obsolete?

&gt;<a href="http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/10/magazines/fortune/rules.fortune/index.htm" target="_blank"> http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/10/magazines/fortune/rules.fort une/index.htm</a>

&gt;I work at a company that absorbed Welch's &quot;style&quot; and let me tell you -
&gt;it's way overdue for replacement.

I wouldn't want GE-style management for any small, fast-growing company
that can't afford to have its innovation stifled, but if you have to
run a large, established firm that's not on the cutting edge, GE
management, of which Jack Welch was a product rather than a creator,
isn't bad, and it's probably why GE is the only remaining original
member of the Dow Jones Industrials. But Johnson &amp; Johnson and 3M are
probably better-run large companies.

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#31: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 06:29:58 by rantonrave

FanJet wrote:

&gt;Bill Ford needs a product like Bill Gates:

&gt;Costs virtually nothing to make, distribute &amp; sell with absolutely no
&gt;warranty whatever.

But Bill Ford runs an actual business and can't tax almost every car
made the way Bill Gates can essentially tax computers with Windows.
Bill Gates didn't create but just brought order to the PC business the
way the public highway system brought order to auto travel.

&gt;During the worst period in Ford history (I'm sure that could be argued to
&gt;death), a single days output from one Ford plant would be worth more than 5
&gt;years of anything Microsoft has foisted on an its consumer base.

&gt;Funny world!

Funny economics. People who worship capitalism as a religion should
realize that their god isn't just far from perfect but often outright
absurd.

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#32: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 07:44:17 by tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS

In article &lt;F3sug.11134$<a href="mailto:pu3.256531&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca" target="_blank">pu3.256531&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca</a>&gt;, Picasso wrote:

&gt; They need to take some time and study the GE management style, and begin
&gt; to manage these people.

Have you ever personally experienced the GE management style?

Here's how it works. Each year every employee is ranked. This is a
political process. It's not how well you do your job, how smart you are,
how much money you made or saved the corporation, but how well liked you
are and how high your salary is. The bottom 10% is subject to downsizing,
and usually is.

After a few years, those who fought for change and became disliked by
bosses for not supporting the status quo, those who were creative and
fought to try new politically risky solutions, those who had experience
and knowledge are all gone.

Sure, wall street and the executives love it when the engineering staff
has been reduced to fresh-outs and ass kissers. However, innovation,
creativity and institutional knowledge suffers. Nobody still working
there knows that doing such and such leads to fires once the cars are
out in the real world... 'little' things like that.

If Ford and GM want to survive they need to take the shackles off their
engineers, not find new ways to pound down the highest nails. (as per
the japanese saying) And that's what the GE method does, pounds down the
highest nails.

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#33: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 08:20:00 by My Names Nobody

&quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:_mAug.11405$<a href="mailto:pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt;
&gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them! hahaha


If they did not sell the V-6 Mustang, the &quot;secretary car&quot; would have long
ago suffered the same fate as the camaro and charger...
It's a good thing some people like the low performance models...


&gt;
&gt; lymee wrote:
&gt;&gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:27:29 +0000, Picasso wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; What chages are they planning for the mustang?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; The mustang GT is a well done piece. Best bang for your buck for sure,
&gt;&gt;&gt; if you are looking for good styling, good power, and a good daily drive.
&gt;&gt;&gt; I don't know why you would look any further, even if the camaro was
&gt;&gt;&gt; still around, it's styling looked like a riced out firebird from 1993,
&gt;&gt;&gt; and didn't even perform overly impressively. It would probally still be
&gt;&gt;&gt; overpriced even if it was there to compete...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I don't know.
&gt;&gt; I read somewhere that every body panel is being reworked along with a new
&gt;&gt; V6 motor.
&gt;&gt; Might just be rumour.
&gt;&gt; Might be too many beers while surfing the net :)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Anyone??
&gt;&gt;

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#34: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 10:47:48 by Picasso

David M wrote:
&gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:56:42 +0000, Picasso rearranged some electrons to
&gt; form:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt;&gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt;&gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them! hahaha
&gt;
&gt; If you actually drove a new Mustang with the V6, you might think again.
&gt; It really runs pretty good, for a 6-cyl.

&gt;


When someone adds, &quot;for a six-cyl&quot; at the end, I don't want to drive
it... I can already feel the power, and hear the motor grinding
away...........................

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#35: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 10:49:00 by Picasso

My Names Nobody wrote:
&gt; &quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:_mAug.11405$<a href="mailto:pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt;&gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt;&gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt;&gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them! hahaha
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; If they did not sell the V-6 Mustang, the &quot;secretary car&quot; would have long
&gt; ago suffered the same fate as the camaro and charger...
&gt; It's a good thing some people like the low performance models...

The camaro too offered a V6, a very weak V6, but it wasthere

NOw if someone upgraded from a neon, or a cavelier, I could see why they
would think a v6 stang would work good.

Report this message

#36: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 11:04:09 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#37: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 20:47:12 by fishinjts

Whitelightning wrote:
&gt; &quot;David M&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:NOSPAM&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">NOSPAM&#64;nospam.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:56Bug.20412$<a href="mailto:so3.10675&#64;southeast.rr.com..." target="_blank">so3.10675&#64;southeast.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:56:42 +0000, Picasso rearranged some electrons to
&gt; &gt; form:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt; &gt; &gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt; &gt; &gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them!
&gt; hahaha
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; If you actually drove a new Mustang with the V6, you might think again.
&gt; &gt; It really runs pretty good, for a 6-cyl.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; Imagine it with a super charger like the Cobalt SS.
&gt;
&gt; Whitelightning

Actually.... I don't have to imagine it... Vortech makes a nice
little kit with and without a charge cooler... I opted for the charge
cooler... My little 'ol V6 puts down 313RWHP/290RWTQ... and she's an
automatic (OMG an Auto V6! How can I even show my face! LOL!) so you're
looking at round 360HP at the crank.... runs 13.4's in 90 degree heat
and a 325 pound driver! LOL!

My Vorech info is at:
<a href="http://www.tammyandjohn.com/Mustang/Screaming/Mustang.htm#rescue" target="_blank"> http://www.tammyandjohn.com/Mustang/Screaming/Mustang.htm#re scue</a>

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#38: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 21:00:03 by fishinjts

Picasso wrote:
&gt; My Names Nobody wrote:
&gt; &gt; &quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:_mAug.11405$<a href="mailto:pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt; &gt;&gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt; &gt;&gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them! hahaha
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; If they did not sell the V-6 Mustang, the &quot;secretary car&quot; would have long
&gt; &gt; ago suffered the same fate as the camaro and charger...
&gt; &gt; It's a good thing some people like the low performance models...
&gt;
&gt; The camaro too offered a V6, a very weak V6, but it wasthere
&gt;
&gt; NOw if someone upgraded from a neon, or a cavelier, I could see why they
&gt; would think a v6 stang would work good.

or upgrading from one of your beloved V8's from the mid-90's... LOL! I
lined up against some mid-90's GT's at the track... they were running a
blistering mid-16s! WOOHOO! A stock S197 V6 can turn low 15's! Couple
cheap mods and you can run 14.9... LOL!

This is not your Dad's rental V6... LOL!

Report this message

#39: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 21:44:33 by MikeHunt2

Few. I have a 2007 GT Convertible on order. After two reds a black and
another red since '99, I picked a new color, 'Alloy' as dark metallic grey,
and added the hood scope. I should have it in two weeks.



mike hunt



&quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:l3zug.11377$<a href="mailto:pu3.260760&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.260760&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt; What chages are they planning for the mustang?
&gt;
&gt; The mustang GT is a well done piece. Best bang for your buck for sure, if
&gt; you are looking for good styling, good power, and a good daily drive. I
&gt; don't know why you would look any further, even if the camaro was still
&gt; around, it's styling looked like a riced out firebird from 1993, and
&gt; didn't even perform overly impressively. It would probally still be
&gt; overpriced even if it was there to compete...
&gt;
&gt; lymee wrote:
&gt;&gt; On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 10:05:36 -0400, Grover C. McCoury III wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; July 16, 2006
&gt;&gt; Snip...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Where I live there is a Ford dealer right next to a GM dealer and despite
&gt;&gt; my having been a Chevy guy for a long time, I'm going to buy a Ford this
&gt;&gt; time around.
&gt;&gt; Mustang to be exact.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Why?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Because GM cars are dull.
&gt;&gt; They look dull.
&gt;&gt; The colors are boring and the styling looks like they took 1970's/80's
&gt;&gt; notchback cars like the Buick Regal, Monte Carlo etc and rounded off the
&gt;&gt; corners. The insides still scream OLD FART CLUB (of which I am a proud
&gt;&gt; member of at 46yo) even though the motors are starting to come back.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; What rocket scientist put the fire breathing V8 in a FWD car, the
&gt;&gt; MonteCarlo?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Even Dodge had the good sense to go RWD with it's Hemi's and although the
&gt;&gt; styling doesn't appeal to everyone at least they took a chance.
&gt;&gt; the interiors are very modern with a touch of retro and well done too.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The Malibu, Cobalt and Impala are other snoozers except maybe for the
&gt;&gt; Cobalt in SS trim which is nice but rough around the edges especially in
&gt;&gt; the handling department.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; In contrast, the new Ford Mustang was a stroke of genious.
&gt;&gt; I just hope Ford doesn't screw it up with the rumored changes they are
&gt;&gt; making next year.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Ford IMHO has one problem and it is the same problem as GM.
&gt;&gt; They bought way too heavily into the super sized SUV market and
&gt;&gt; now that gas prices are skyrocketing it is coming back to get them.
&gt;&gt; Unlike GM though, Ford was smart enough to offer some hybrids and even
&gt;&gt; though they kinda suck(very high repair costs) it is good for public
&gt;&gt; relations and people are buying them.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I think the big three really have to do some serious market research,
&gt;&gt; hire
&gt;&gt; some talented designers with fresh ideas and look toward the future (like
&gt;&gt; Japanese companies) instead of a quarterly bottom line.
&gt;&gt;

Report this message

#40: Ford Running on Empty, hardly

Posted on 2006-07-17 21:55:00 by MikeHunt2

Todays Mustang GT has the 4.6V8 is a better engine than the 302, 300 HP and
345 FP of torque. The limited production Cobra has the engine from the Ford
GT with a supercharger and 500 HP and 445 FP of torque from what I've heard.
The MSRP for the coupe is 40K, 45K for the convertible but dealers are
getting 5K to 10K over MSRP. Every Ford dealer gets one, Presidents Award
dealers get two.



mike hunt




&quot;Whitelightning&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:2YAug.5346$<a href="mailto:Ss2.5148&#64;trnddc01..." target="_blank">Ss2.5148&#64;trnddc01...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:_mAug.11405$<a href="mailto:pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt;&gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt;&gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt;&gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them! hahaha
&gt;&gt;
&gt; Careful now, lol. In 1985 one of the performance mags did a head to head
&gt; to
&gt; find the &quot;fastest&quot;
&gt; production car. Of course the Corvette won hands down over all even after
&gt; Chevrolet made them put a roll cage in the car and locked out 6th gear on
&gt; the tranny, the Camaro IROC nudged out the Pontiac Firebird for 2 nd
&gt; place,
&gt; and forth place went to the Buick Grand National, which beat the Firebird
&gt; for top end, but got beat bad in the 1/4 mile, but the big surprise was
&gt; the
&gt; Dodge Omni GLH whooped the 5.0 Ford Mustang, not just on top end, but in
&gt; the
&gt; 1/4 mile as well.. A couple years later the Omni was gone, as was the
&gt; Grand
&gt; National, but the big upset winners were both GM trucks, the Cyclone, and
&gt; the Typhoon, which almost beat the damn Corvette in the 1/4 mile.
&gt;
&gt; Whitelightning
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#41: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 22:00:43 by MikeHunt2

There is a light F250, under 2500, and the F250 HD. Check with your local
Ford dealer, for the specifics, WBMA


mike hunt

&quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:KJDug.3193$<a href="mailto:Lw.1022&#64;trnddc07..." target="_blank">Lw.1022&#64;trnddc07...</a>
&gt;

&gt;&gt; F150's are damn solid trucks. I wish they still made the light duty
&gt;&gt; f250. But anyway, the F150's are still good vehicles.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; If i had the money, I would try a 250 or 350 diesel.
&gt;
&gt; Light duty F-250's??? What year was that? Every year I'm familiar with
&gt; share axels, brakes and springs with the F-350. I do know Chevy made
&gt; half-ton based light duty 3/4 ton trucks, I'm not aware of a Ford light
&gt; duty F-250.
&gt;

Report this message

#42: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 22:03:32 by MikeHunt2

Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling car in the
US? ;)



mike hunt


&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Better quality? In whose opinion?
&gt;
&gt; J.D. Powers, Consumer Reports, Popular Mechanics, Gelco Leasing,
&gt; dealers that sell both Japanese, American, and Chrysler brands, and
&gt; even the internal reports of Ford and GM.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.
&gt;
&gt; Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading

Report this message

#43: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-17 22:23:55 by Whitelightning

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:-JqcnfBtIZiLcCbZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">-JqcnfBtIZiLcCbZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling car in the
&gt; US? ;)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
because all you have to say to the common ignorant American consumer is that
if its manufactured by any one but an American Corporation, it has to be
better, and they
believe it.

Whitelightning.

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#44: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 01:04:53 by JohnR66

&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Better quality? In whose opinion?
&gt;
&gt; J.D. Powers, Consumer Reports, Popular Mechanics, Gelco Leasing,
&gt; dealers that sell both Japanese, American, and Chrysler brands, and
&gt; even the internal reports of Ford and GM.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.
&gt;
&gt; Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is bigger
&gt; than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?). GM is
&gt; also #1 in China, but again, so what? For a business with such large
&gt; economies of scale as the car industry, worldwide sales matter more,
&gt; and here GM will soon be overtaken, unless it merges with
&gt; Renault/Nissan. GM and Ford have got to bring out new best-in-class
&gt; vehicles, and they haven't been doing that much, GM perhaps not at
&gt; all.. Rick Wagoner and Bill Ford need to understand, &quot;It's the
&gt; vehicles, stupid.&quot;
&gt;
BTW,
The Fusion and Mustang were ranked best in class by JD Powers. No other
American makes to be found.
John

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#45: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 04:14:36 by NoOption5L

Whitelightning wrote:

&gt; &gt; Because GM cars are dull.
&gt; &gt; They look dull.
&gt; &gt; The colors are boring and the styling looks like they took 1970's/80's
&gt; &gt; notchback cars like the Buick Regal, Monte Carlo etc and rounded off the
&gt; &gt; corners. The insides still scream OLD FART CLUB (of which I am a proud
&gt; &gt; member of at 46yo) even though the motors are starting to come back.

&gt; &gt; What rocket scientist put the fire breathing V8 in a FWD car, the
&gt; &gt; MonteCarlo?

&gt; Why not, lets see, Olds Tornado, Cadillac Eldarado, Coupe DeVille, STS,
&gt; Buick Rivera to name a few. The Toronado set up was so bullet proof GMC used it in
&gt; its RV they offered in the 70's and early 80's that still has a cult following with
&gt; almost 75% of those sold still on the road.

&quot;Bulletproof&quot; or not, high horsepower FWD cars have torque steer
problems. And you must admit, given the choice most every performance
nut would opt for RWD over FWD.

&gt; &gt; Even Dodge had the good sense to go RWD with it's Hemi's and although the
&gt; &gt; styling doesn't appeal to everyone at least they took a chance.
&gt; &gt; the interiors are very modern with a touch of retro and well done too.

&gt; Probably because of Mercedes owning them, Mercedes is still rear wheel drive.
&gt; And the hemi is a marketing ploy to the inth degree, to compare what they
&gt; are offering today to the 426 hemis of the late 60's and 70's is a joke.

1) The modern 6.1L Hemi is NET rated at what the old 7L Hemi was rated
in GROSS HP.

2) And a modern SRT Hemi car will walk any old Hemi car.

So the modern Hemi's performance isn't a joke.

===

Now let's see if re-using the Hemi name is a &quot;marketing ploy&quot;.

===

Conclusions So Far
Unless there is something that has been under-/over-estimated or
overlooked, it seems that this new Hemi has evolved into something as
high-tech as the LS6 engine. If so, this means (from the street
performance enthusiast point of view) it is hot right out of the crate
(see output curves in Fig 1) and chock full of major power potential.
Its crowning feature is going to be the cylinder head, so let's take a
serious look at this all-important piece of hardware now.

Cylinder Head
The advantage of a hemi design of combustion chamber is that the valves
(and most importantly the intake valve) are always moving away from the
shrouding effect of the cylinder walls (Fig 2) as they lift off the
seats. However, the new hemi is not actually a true hemi as per its
426-inch predecessor. The hemi style of combustion chamber was put to
good use during WWII when the output of supercharged aero engines could
basically decide the fate of nations. For a two-valve combustion
chamber, the hemi layout not only allows the largest valves to be
accommodated but also to have the highest flow efficiency. The downside
of a true Hemi configuration is that it does not respond well to a high
compression ratio that inevitably requires a combustion-inhibiting,
high-domed piston. For an engine with a typical bore/stroke ratio, this
means it works great with a supercharger and CRs less than 8.5:1, but
not as a normally-aspirated unit with 10:1 or more. To get around this
problem the new Hemi has the sides of the true hemi form filled in.
With the two spark plugs it is equipped with, this allows all the
advantages of a true hemi, including blower capability, along with the
ability, if required, to successful utilize high compression ratios.

====

Seems there was a valid reason to slightly modify the old Hemi design.
The new Hemi needed more compression and the old Hemi design wouldn't
cut the mustand.

=====

Flow Capability
We can see that Chrysler's engineers were targeting the best two-valve
head possible. There are two important questions that need to be asked
here: How well did they succeed for the head in stock form and, since
no aftermarket heads are available, what is its porting potential? The
graph, Fig 3, gives the answers here and you are going to like them.
First, the intake port. The stock port with its 2-inch valve flowed a
whopping 270 cfm at only .600-inch lift. It hit the peak flow figures,
which are produced at .700-inch lift on a stock LS6, at only about 375
thousandths lift. This is good news but there is a lot more. Peak
figures are not the whole story. Good mid-range figures are also
important. The new Hemi did extremely well here. At 250 thousandths
lift, the stock head was nearer a $10,000 Winston (Nextel) Cup head
than it was to even a good modified parallel-valve head.

A check on the intake port velocity (Fig 4) showed the intake to be a
super high-speed port with valve-to-port areas very similar to what is
seen in Formula One. Velocity probing showed 90 percent of the port
flows at a velocity greater than 90 percent of maximum. This is far
better than a typical 23-degree performance head for a small-block
Chevy or, for that matter, the LS6.

The exhaust port showed the same high-function trend by hitting 161 cfm
at 600 thousandths lift through its 1.55-inch valve. It also had a far
better than average port velocity and velocity distribution (Fig 5).

We spent a day and a half on the flow bench in an effort to find out
what this head does or does not like in the way of port mods. We are
sure there is much still to come, especially with some bigger valves,
but we did find what it took to produce, at 600 thousandths lift, some
302 cfm on the intake and 195 cfm on the exhaust. As the nearby photos
show the work to achieve this proved simple. In essence, the porting
involves little more than just tidying up what Chrysler's engineers
provided in the first place (great job guys).

Final Conclusions
The bottom line here we think is that even in today's world, the Hemi,
a year after its introduction, has got more going for it as a hot rod
motor than perhaps the small-block Chevy did in 1956. Even with the
limitations on valve lift brought about by the stock rocker, the
cylinder head has more than enough flow potential to clear the 600-hp
barrier and probably do it (relatively speaking) with ease.

====

&quot;...clear 600-hp barrier and do it with relative ease&quot; certainly sounds
like a no-joke engine.

====

So will it be a success? This depends on the factory as much as
anything. First, they must put it in vehicles that inspire hot rodders
to do something with them. The Hemi truck is a great start here as the
sport truck market is big. Introducing a viable pony car to compete
with the Mustang would probably clinch the deal in that department. But
it will still need a little more than just the right vehicles. The
factory will have to support this engine in aftermarket parts. This
appears to be happening but as far as we are concerned, it can't happen
fast enough. We're avid Chevy fans and have owned many Chevy vehicles
over the years, but this 5.7 Hemi has totally convinced us our next
truck just has to be a Hemi-powered Dodge.

<a href="http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0403phr_chrysler_hemi_57_liter_345ci_engine_review/" target="_blank"> http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0403phr_chrysler_hemi_ 57_liter_345ci_engine_review/</a>

====

Hmmm... avid Chevy fans admitting the new Hemi outguns their brand's
best. Not too shabby for a &quot;marketing ploy&quot; and a joke compared to
old, huh?

Patrick

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#46: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 05:04:54 by MikeHunt2

Certainly not in the opinion of the majority of new vehicle buyers. They
buy far more from GM and Ford than any import brand.


mike hunt


&quot;JohnR66&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nospam&#64;att.net" target="_blank">nospam&#64;att.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Better quality? In whose opinion?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; J.D. Powers, Consumer Reports, Popular Mechanics, Gelco Leasing,
&gt;&gt; dealers that sell both Japanese, American, and Chrysler brands, and
&gt;&gt; even the internal reports of Ford and GM.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is bigger
&gt;&gt; than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?). GM is
&gt;&gt; also #1 in China, but again, so what? For a business with such large
&gt;&gt; economies of scale as the car industry, worldwide sales matter more,
&gt;&gt; and here GM will soon be overtaken, unless it merges with
&gt;&gt; Renault/Nissan. GM and Ford have got to bring out new best-in-class
&gt;&gt; vehicles, and they haven't been doing that much, GM perhaps not at
&gt;&gt; all.. Rick Wagoner and Bill Ford need to understand, &quot;It's the
&gt;&gt; vehicles, stupid.&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt; BTW,
&gt; The Fusion and Mustang were ranked best in class by JD Powers. No other
&gt; American makes to be found.
&gt; John
&gt;

Report this message

#47: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 05:09:39 by MikeHunt2

If you own a new hemi, if I were you, I would not bet your title that you
will 'walk away' from any old Hemi. LOL

mike hunt


&lt;<a href="mailto:NoOption5L&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">NoOption5L&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt; Whitelightning wrote:
&gt;
..
&gt;
&gt; 1) The modern 6.1L Hemi is NET rated at what the old 7L Hemi was rated
&gt; in GROSS HP.
&gt;
&gt; 2) And a modern SRT Hemi car will walk any old Hemi car.
&gt;

Report this message

#48: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 09:41:36 by rantonrave

Mike Hunter wrote:

&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>

&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.

&gt;&gt;Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is bigger
&gt;&gt;than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?). GM is
&gt;&gt;also #1 in China, but again, so what?

&gt;Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling
&gt;car in the US? ;)

I doubt it's all due to quality but also because of performance,
comfort, and resale value. What do you think is the reason?

Report this message

#49: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 16:07:12 by MikeHunt2

Most buyers buy what they buy because the believe that is the best buy for
their money. The ONLY Toyota that is the number one seller, in its class is
the Camry, however. Performance? That's funny, 8 out of 10 Camrys sold in
the US are 4cy and way underpowered compared to those of its competitors
that offer V6s for much less money.

mike hunt


&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is bigger
&gt;&gt;&gt;than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?). GM is
&gt;&gt;&gt;also #1 in China, but again, so what?
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling
&gt;&gt;car in the US? ;)
&gt;
&gt; I doubt it's all due to quality but also because of performance,
&gt; comfort, and resale value. What do you think is the reason?
&gt;

Report this message

#50: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 17:22:10 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#51: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 21:44:54 by MikeHunt2

ANYTHING is more fun to drive than a 4 cy Camry. ;)

mike

&quot;lymee&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:s17vg.51$<a href="mailto:OQ2.32&#64;fe08.lga..." target="_blank">OQ2.32&#64;fe08.lga...</a>
&gt; On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:07:12 -0400, Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Most buyers buy what they buy because the believe that is the best buy
&gt;&gt; for
&gt;&gt; their money. The ONLY Toyota that is the number one seller, in its class
&gt;&gt; is
&gt;&gt; the Camry, however. Performance? That's funny, 8 out of 10 Camrys sold
&gt;&gt; in
&gt;&gt; the US are 4cy and way underpowered compared to those of its competitors
&gt;&gt; that offer V6s for much less money.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt; I've had both the 4 and the V6 as rentals and their is a major difference
&gt; in power between the two motors.
&gt; The 4 is a real slug.
&gt; The V6 is a lot better.
&gt;
&gt; However, I still think the high end Corolla model is much more fun to
&gt; drive than the Camry.

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#52: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 22:08:31 by Ken Finney

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:5C-dnbGz-LinpyDZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">5C-dnbGz-LinpyDZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; ANYTHING is more fun to drive than a 4 cy Camry. ;)
&gt;

I have a diesel Rabbit...

Report this message

#53: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-18 23:16:05 by My Names Nobody

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; Most buyers buy what they buy because the believe that is the best buy for
&gt; their money. The ONLY Toyota that is the number one seller, in its class
&gt; is the Camry, however. Performance? That's funny, 8 out of 10 Camrys
&gt; sold in the US are 4cy and way underpowered compared to those of its
&gt; competitors that offer V6s for much less money.
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt


Kinda like most Mustangs sold huh? LOL


&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt;news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is bigger
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?). GM is
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;also #1 in China, but again, so what?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling
&gt;&gt;&gt;car in the US? ;)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I doubt it's all due to quality but also because of performance,
&gt;&gt; comfort, and resale value. What do you think is the reason?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#54: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 00:13:12 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#55: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 04:18:02 by NoOption5L

Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; If you own a new hemi, if I were you, I would not bet your title that you
&gt; will 'walk away' from any old Hemi. LOL

Don't laugh. Find me an original road test where a normal production
Hemi car posts a trap speed of 109 mph. You don't have to bother
looking because you won't find any. 105 is it, with most posting trap
speeds closer to 100. And if you've been a subscriber to Hemmings
Muscle Machines magazine you'll have noted a few times where they've
stated the old Hemi cars aren't as fast as the new SRT Hemi cars, or
more like not even close to as fast.

Me... I'd bet the farm on the a new SRT Hemi...

Patrick


&gt; &gt; 1) The modern 6.1L Hemi is NET rated at what the old 7L Hemi was rated
&gt; &gt; in GROSS HP.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; 2) And a modern SRT Hemi car will walk any old Hemi car.
&gt; &gt;

Report this message

#56: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 04:43:26 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#57: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 14:19:05 by Mark Jones

lymee wrote:
&gt; However, the Mustang, even the V6 is simply more fun to drive.
&gt; It really is.
&gt; I dunno why, I really don't but IMHO it is a more fun ride.
&gt; I think it might be because the Dodge feels *heavy*...

The Dodge is heavy. The Charger is about 4200 pounds.
It is slower than my 1994 Corvette, even though the new
Dodge has about 75 more horsepower.

Report this message

#58: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 19:45:28 by MikeHunt2

A V6 Mustang will blow the doors off a Camry with EITHER engine LOL



&quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:pccvg.3334$<a href="mailto:us.2493&#64;trnddc04..." target="_blank">us.2493&#64;trnddc04...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Most buyers buy what they buy because the believe that is the best buy
&gt;&gt; for their money. The ONLY Toyota that is the number one seller, in its
&gt;&gt; class is the Camry, however. Performance? That's funny, 8 out of 10
&gt;&gt; Camrys sold in the US are 4cy and way underpowered compared to those of
&gt;&gt; its competitors that offer V6s for much less money.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Kinda like most Mustangs sold huh? LOL
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is bigger
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?). GM is
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;also #1 in China, but again, so what?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;car in the US? ;)
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; I doubt it's all due to quality but also because of performance,
&gt;&gt;&gt; comfort, and resale value. What do you think is the reason?
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#59: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 19:53:10 by MikeHunt2

The difference is in the torque and the RPMs at which it is produced.
Domestics do not generally wind up the engines, to produce higher HP figures
for advertising purposed, as do the Japanese. Thus their engines develop
more torque at the proper RPMs, and that show up in much better performance.
I also will result in better real world fuel economy if one lives in hilly
or mountainous areas of the country



&quot;lymee&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:R2dvg.372$<a href="mailto:MU1.270&#64;fe11.lga..." target="_blank">MU1.270&#64;fe11.lga...</a>
&gt; On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 21:16:05 +0000, My Names Nobody wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Kinda like most Mustangs sold huh? LOL
&gt;
&gt; Not really comparable.
&gt; FWIW the base cars usually are the best sellers, mostly due to rental
&gt; companies getting them.
&gt;
&gt; The V6 Mustang (2005+) is quite fast, has a decent
&gt; exhaust sound and is a lot of fun to drive especially a ragtop model.
&gt;
&gt; The GT adds on top of that, but it's really not *THAT* much of a
&gt; difference in everyday driving for average people.
&gt;
&gt; Of course the enthusiasts and Mustang nuts like ME appreciate the
&gt; difference.
&gt; But average Joe using it to commute to work?
&gt; Nahhhh...
&gt;
&gt; Some say the V6 actually feels better handling the corkscrew turns because
&gt; the nose is lighter by about 150lbs or so.
&gt;
&gt; The V6 and 4 cyl Camrys are like night and day just like the V6 and 4
&gt; cyl Mazda 626 were, in their day.
&gt;
&gt; I have had both versions of the Mazda and Camry as rentals for a week or
&gt; more and IMHO it's a major difference in driveablity.
&gt;
&gt; I actually thought there was something wrong with the 4 cyl Camry I
&gt; rented.
&gt; It was that slow and even worse throttle response was sluggish.
&gt;
&gt; Ford was real smart offering a good performance V6 in the entry model
&gt; because most people will never be able to appreciate the extra the GT
&gt; offers.
&gt;
&gt; Their wallet will appreciate the lower insurance costs however :)
&gt;
&gt; Seems Pontiac and Saturn have done the same with the Sky/Solstice.
&gt;
&gt; I think Dodge slipped a little offering that V6 in the Hemi models.
&gt; Then again Dodge was selling a 2.x liter 4 banger for Caravans :(
&gt;
&gt; Big mistake IMHO.
&gt;

Report this message

#60: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 21:36:13 by My Names Nobody

Ya OK, you wish. LOL

2007 Camry, V6 3.5-liter high-output V6, 268-horsepower at 6200 rpm, 248
lb-ft of torque at 4700 rpm

2007 Ford Mustang, V6 standard 4.0-liter, V6, 210-horsepower at 5,250 rpm,
240 lb-ft of torque at 3500 rpm

Before you get too excited about the power being at higher RPMs, have a
look at the Mustangs V-8 numbers...
2007 Ford Mustang, V8 4.6-liter, V8, 300-horsepower at 5,750 rpm, 320 lb-ft
of torque at 4,500 rpm

I can see all the Camry doors all over the shoulders of the roads now,
NOT...


&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;A V6 Mustang will blow the doors off a Camry with EITHER engine LOL
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:pccvg.3334$<a href="mailto:us.2493&#64;trnddc04..." target="_blank">us.2493&#64;trnddc04...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Most buyers buy what they buy because the believe that is the best buy
&gt;&gt;&gt; for their money. The ONLY Toyota that is the number one seller, in its
&gt;&gt;&gt; class is the Camry, however. Performance? That's funny, 8 out of 10
&gt;&gt;&gt; Camrys sold in the US are 4cy and way underpowered compared to those of
&gt;&gt;&gt; its competitors that offer V6s for much less money.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Kinda like most Mustangs sold huh? LOL
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is bigger
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?). GM
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;is
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;also #1 in China, but again, so what?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;car in the US? ;)
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I doubt it's all due to quality but also because of performance,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; comfort, and resale value. What do you think is the reason?
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#61: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 22:25:39 by dwight

&quot;lymee&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:g0hvg.6483$<a href="mailto:BB4.4218&#64;fe10.lga..." target="_blank">BB4.4218&#64;fe10.lga...</a>
&gt; On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:18:02 -0700, NoOption5L wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Me... I'd bet the farm on the a new SRT Hemi...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Patrick
&gt;
&gt; Me too.
&gt; And don't even talk about fuel economy, efficiency and cornering ability.
&gt; The new Dodges clean house in that neck of the woods.
&gt; I drove the 5.7 Hemi and while I don't really like the styling, it was a
&gt; seriously powered ride!
&gt; You literally have to hang on to the steering wheel to keep from flying
&gt; back in the seat.

You should move the seat up a bit. There should be at least a slight bend in
your elbows as you grip the wheel, and your back should be planted against
the seat back.

Try doing it this way, instead of leaning way forward to hold the steering
wheel. I don't understand how anyone can drive with the seat fully
reclined...

:()



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from <a href="http://www.teranews.com" target="_blank">http://www.teranews.com</a>

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#62: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 22:34:39 by MikeHunt2

Apples to oranges. How about a Barracuda with an old hemi? ;)


mike hunt


&lt;<a href="mailto:NoOption5L&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">NoOption5L&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153275482.436377.189700&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153275482.436377.189700&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt; If you own a new hemi, if I were you, I would not bet your title that you
&gt;&gt; will 'walk away' from any old Hemi. LOL
&gt;
&gt; Don't laugh. Find me an original road test where a normal production
&gt; Hemi car posts a trap speed of 109 mph. You don't have to bother
&gt; looking because you won't find any. 105 is it, with most posting trap
&gt; speeds closer to 100. And if you've been a subscriber to Hemmings
&gt; Muscle Machines magazine you'll have noted a few times where they've
&gt; stated the old Hemi cars aren't as fast as the new SRT Hemi cars, or
&gt; more like not even close to as fast.
&gt;
&gt; Me... I'd bet the farm on the a new SRT Hemi...
&gt;
&gt; Patrick
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; 1) The modern 6.1L Hemi is NET rated at what the old 7L Hemi was rated
&gt;&gt; &gt; in GROSS HP.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; 2) And a modern SRT Hemi car will walk any old Hemi car.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#63: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 22:35:40 by MikeHunt2

Compare the torque ;)

mike hunt


&quot;Mark Jones&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:noemail&#64;mindspring.com" target="_blank">noemail&#64;mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:Zqpvg.279$<a href="mailto:gF6.29&#64;newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">gF6.29&#64;newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt; lymee wrote:
&gt;&gt; However, the Mustang, even the V6 is simply more fun to drive.
&gt;&gt; It really is.
&gt;&gt; I dunno why, I really don't but IMHO it is a more fun ride.
&gt;&gt; I think it might be because the Dodge feels *heavy*...
&gt;
&gt; The Dodge is heavy. The Charger is about 4200 pounds.
&gt; It is slower than my 1994 Corvette, even though the new
&gt; Dodge has about 75 more horsepower.
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#64: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-19 22:54:33 by MikeHunt2

Thanks for proving my point, about the importance of torque to HP! A 2007
GT is only running a 1,900 RPMs at 70 MPH. 2,200 at 80 MPH The Toyota
needs to be at nearly 3000 RPMs to attain 70 MPH At 3,000 the Mustang
would be doing 105.

My 2007 will be in by early August, bring your title and your Toyota. I
could use a car for one of my grand daughters ;)

mike hunt


&quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:NQvvg.12568$<a href="mailto:k31.12257&#64;trnddc06..." target="_blank">k31.12257&#64;trnddc06...</a>
&gt; Ya OK, you wish. LOL
&gt;
&gt; 2007 Camry, V6 3.5-liter high-output V6, 268-horsepower at 6200 rpm, 248
&gt; lb-ft of torque at 4700 rpm
&gt;
&gt; 2007 Ford Mustang, V6 standard 4.0-liter, V6, 210-horsepower at 5,250 rpm,
&gt; 240 lb-ft of torque at 3500 rpm
&gt;
&gt; Before you get too excited about the power being at higher RPMs, have a
&gt; look at the Mustangs V-8 numbers...
&gt; 2007 Ford Mustang, V8 4.6-liter, V8, 300-horsepower at 5,750 rpm, 320
&gt; lb-ft of torque at 4,500 rpm
&gt;
&gt; I can see all the Camry doors all over the shoulders of the roads now,
&gt; NOT...
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;A V6 Mustang will blow the doors off a Camry with EITHER engine LOL

Report this message

#65: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 01:50:50 by nobody

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 16:34:39 -0400, &quot;Mike Hunter&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;Apples to oranges. How about a Barracuda with an old hemi? ;)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;

I had a 68 Barracuda Formula S wiht a 383 in it. DAMNED fast car,, in
fact, so fast that it scared me (at age 21) so bad I was afraid to let
off on the accellerator. Problem was the front end only hit the
ground every couple of hundred feet above 130 MPH. Thank heavens
there weren't many Michigan State Police on the Seeney Stretch in the
UP back then LOL

BTW, that WAS the fastest car in the UP till some SUMBITCH brough a
hemicuda across the bridge &lt;sigh&gt; LOL

Fun but not as much fun as my Mustang :)

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#66: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 02:14:01 by Mark Jones

Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; Compare the torque ;)
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Mark Jones&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:noemail&#64;mindspring.com" target="_blank">noemail&#64;mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:Zqpvg.279$<a href="mailto:gF6.29&#64;newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">gF6.29&#64;newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; lymee wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; However, the Mustang, even the V6 is simply more fun to drive.
&gt;&gt;&gt; It really is.
&gt;&gt;&gt; I dunno why, I really don't but IMHO it is a more fun ride.
&gt;&gt;&gt; I think it might be because the Dodge feels *heavy*...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; The Dodge is heavy. The Charger is about 4200 pounds.
&gt;&gt; It is slower than my 1994 Corvette, even though the new
&gt;&gt; Dodge has about 75 more horsepower.

Same difference. The Dodge has about 75 more torque and
it still isn't enough because of the extreme weight. I was really
surprised to see that it weighed so much. That is a little more
than the weight of the huge Chevy Impalas from the early 70's.

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#67: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 03:51:49 by NoOption5L

Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; Apples to oranges. How about a Barracuda with an old hemi? ;)

Mike,

I don't know why you think it's apples to oranges.

Anyways, the old hemi 'Cudas were heavy cars -- 3800+ pounds. (The
'68-'70 Chargers were lighter, if only by a bit.) So they had about
the same amount of body mass to move as the new Hemi does.

Patrick


&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:NoOption5L&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">NoOption5L&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153275482.436377.189700&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153275482.436377.189700&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt; If you own a new hemi, if I were you, I would not bet your title that you
&gt; &gt;&gt; will 'walk away' from any old Hemi. LOL
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Don't laugh. Find me an original road test where a normal production
&gt; &gt; Hemi car posts a trap speed of 109 mph. You don't have to bother
&gt; &gt; looking because you won't find any. 105 is it, with most posting trap
&gt; &gt; speeds closer to 100. And if you've been a subscriber to Hemmings
&gt; &gt; Muscle Machines magazine you'll have noted a few times where they've
&gt; &gt; stated the old Hemi cars aren't as fast as the new SRT Hemi cars, or
&gt; &gt; more like not even close to as fast.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Me... I'd bet the farm on the a new SRT Hemi...
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Patrick
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; 1) The modern 6.1L Hemi is NET rated at what the old 7L Hemi was rated
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; in GROSS HP.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; 2) And a modern SRT Hemi car will walk any old Hemi car.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;

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#68: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 04:35:40 by MikeHunt2

I can only assume you never owned one of those car if that is what you
believe LOL


mike hunt


&lt;<a href="mailto:NoOption5L&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">NoOption5L&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153360309.332275.96880&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153360309.332275.96880&#64;i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt; Apples to oranges. How about a Barracuda with an old hemi? ;)
&gt;
&gt; Mike,
&gt;
&gt; I don't know why you think it's apples to oranges.
&gt;
&gt; Anyways, the old hemi 'Cudas were heavy cars -- 3800+ pounds. (The
&gt; '68-'70 Chargers were lighter, if only by a bit.) So they had about
&gt; the same amount of body mass to move as the new Hemi does.
&gt;
&gt; Patrick
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:NoOption5L&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">NoOption5L&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153275482.436377.189700&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153275482.436377.189700&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; If you own a new hemi, if I were you, I would not bet your title that
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; you
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; will 'walk away' from any old Hemi. LOL
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Don't laugh. Find me an original road test where a normal production
&gt;&gt; &gt; Hemi car posts a trap speed of 109 mph. You don't have to bother
&gt;&gt; &gt; looking because you won't find any. 105 is it, with most posting trap
&gt;&gt; &gt; speeds closer to 100. And if you've been a subscriber to Hemmings
&gt;&gt; &gt; Muscle Machines magazine you'll have noted a few times where they've
&gt;&gt; &gt; stated the old Hemi cars aren't as fast as the new SRT Hemi cars, or
&gt;&gt; &gt; more like not even close to as fast.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Me... I'd bet the farm on the a new SRT Hemi...
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Patrick
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; 1) The modern 6.1L Hemi is NET rated at what the old 7L Hemi was
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; rated
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; in GROSS HP.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; 2) And a modern SRT Hemi car will walk any old Hemi car.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;

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#69: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 05:32:50 by Whitelightning

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:NoOdnQldU66fcSPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">NoOdnQldU66fcSPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; I can only assume you never owned one of those car if that is what you
&gt; believe LOL
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt

Obviously he never drove one. There is a hell of a difference between 350
cid, and 426 cid.

Ahh those were the days,Chrysler's 426 hemi's, Ford's 429 cobra jet ala 1970
Torino, and Chevy's '63 409 cid, and the later 427 cid engines, and last but
not least, the '70 Buick StageI with the 455 cid, 510 ft pounds of torque,
at 2,600 rpm.

Whitelightning

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#70: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 08:29:17 by My Names Nobody

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:PuqcnVhYpfKTASPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">PuqcnVhYpfKTASPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; Thanks for proving my point, about the importance of torque to HP! A
&gt; 2007 GT is only running a 1,900 RPMs at 70 MPH. 2,200 at 80 MPH The
&gt; Toyota needs to be at nearly 3000 RPMs to attain 70 MPH At 3,000 the
&gt; Mustang

LMAO, Where are you getting the shit? IN WHICH GEAR??? The only way the
2007 V-6 Camry spins 3000 RPM at 70 miles per hour is if you leave it in 3rd
and don't use the top two gears.
The last (190 HP) Toyota I drove idled along at 75 MPH in overdrive at 1800
RPM...

&gt; would be doing 105.
&gt;

LOL
Ah, you are confusing torque curves with gear ratios, you better check your
math...
Speed is a result of crank RPM and transmission/final gear ratio, not the
engines torque curve. Torque may effect how quickly you get to that speed,
but has absolutely nothing to do with the engine RPM and final drive
speed...

You can go 70 MPH with many cars with well under half the torque and
horsepower, and the RPM is dictated by gear ratio, NOT Torque curve.

Even if torque did play a roll ( if we were talking about a whole lot less
power, running out of torque could come into play) in the RPM-in and the
resulting final RPM-out travel speed equation, rather than gear ratio, my
posting of the Mustangs and Toyotas numbers would have still done absolutely
nothing toward &quot;proving your point&quot;... Doh.

I did prove that you were talking out your ass when you quiped off &quot;A V6
Mustang will blow the doors off a Camry with EITHER engine LOL&quot;. That
is just not true.


&gt; My 2007 will be in by early August, bring your title and your Toyota.

LMFAO
I don't have one, but I would rent one just to show you the error of your
ways...


&gt; could use a car for one of my grand daughters ;)
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:NQvvg.12568$<a href="mailto:k31.12257&#64;trnddc06..." target="_blank">k31.12257&#64;trnddc06...</a>
&gt;&gt; Ya OK, you wish. LOL
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; 2007 Camry, V6 3.5-liter high-output V6, 268-horsepower at 6200 rpm, 248
&gt;&gt; lb-ft of torque at 4700 rpm
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; 2007 Ford Mustang, V6 standard 4.0-liter, V6, 210-horsepower at 5,250
&gt;&gt; rpm, 240 lb-ft of torque at 3500 rpm
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Before you get too excited about the power being at higher RPMs, have a
&gt;&gt; look at the Mustangs V-8 numbers...
&gt;&gt; 2007 Ford Mustang, V8 4.6-liter, V8, 300-horsepower at 5,750 rpm, 320
&gt;&gt; lb-ft of torque at 4,500 rpm
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I can see all the Camry doors all over the shoulders of the roads now,
&gt;&gt; NOT...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;A V6 Mustang will blow the doors off a Camry with EITHER engine LOL
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#71: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 12:47:54 by fishinjts

Actually given the price of a 3.5 V6 Camry you really need to compare
it to the Mustang GT!

Your beloved 2007 Camry has an MSRP of $24,300 while the Mustang V6
list for only $19,100! MSRP on a Mustang GT is $25,100 (some places
actually sell them for that... LOL). So for an extra $800 you can get
a 300HP Mustang GT! LOL!

Also your Camry is only available in an automatic... I'm guessing it s
a smooth, slow shifting automatic at that... While the Mustang is
avaible in a manual so it will have less power loss.. (Have you seen
that new commerical for the car where you don't even feel it shift?
What's up with that??? LOL!)

On the subject of torque... You feel torque and talk about
horsepower... Torque wins races! Both cars have about the same torque
but the Mustang V6 makes peak earlier... Now I'm very familar with the
torque curves on the Mustang but not on the Camry. I can tell you the
torque curve on the Mustang V6 is really good. Torque comes on early
and stays nice and flat. I will have to see if I can find a Camry
dynosheet... But I doubt will be as good as the Mustang's. The 4.0L
is a torquey little motor! 2 stock automatics would probably be a close
race... but I think a stock manual Mustang is going to beat the
Camry...

But then again the Camry is $5000 more than the Mustang V6! For $5000
you can add F/I to the Mustang and have some serious FUN! LOL! (and
please don't whine to me about voiding my warranty... LOL)

And of course... dont' forget the &quot;gawk&quot; factor! I have never owned a
car that gets &quot;gawked&quot; at as much and my 05 Stang... There will always
be cars out there that are FASTER than The Mistress, but not many that
are better looking! LOL!



My Names Nobody wrote:
&gt; Ya OK, you wish. LOL
&gt;
&gt; 2007 Camry, V6 3.5-liter high-output V6, 268-horsepower at 6200 rpm, 248
&gt; lb-ft of torque at 4700 rpm
&gt;
&gt; 2007 Ford Mustang, V6 standard 4.0-liter, V6, 210-horsepower at 5,250 rpm,
&gt; 240 lb-ft of torque at 3500 rpm
&gt;
&gt; Before you get too excited about the power being at higher RPMs, have a
&gt; look at the Mustangs V-8 numbers...
&gt; 2007 Ford Mustang, V8 4.6-liter, V8, 300-horsepower at 5,750 rpm, 320 lb-ft
&gt; of torque at 4,500 rpm
&gt;
&gt; I can see all the Camry doors all over the shoulders of the roads now,
&gt; NOT...
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;A V6 Mustang will blow the doors off a Camry with EITHER engine LOL
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:pccvg.3334$<a href="mailto:us.2493&#64;trnddc04..." target="_blank">us.2493&#64;trnddc04...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Most buyers buy what they buy because the believe that is the best buy
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; for their money. The ONLY Toyota that is the number one seller, in its
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; class is the Camry, however. Performance? That's funny, 8 out of 10
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Camrys sold in the US are 4cy and way underpowered compared to those of
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; its competitors that offer V6s for much less money.
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Kinda like most Mustangs sold huh? LOL
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is bigger
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?). GM
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;is
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;also #1 in China, but again, so what?
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;car in the US? ;)
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I doubt it's all due to quality but also because of performance,
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; comfort, and resale value. What do you think is the reason?
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;

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#72: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 14:57:38 by RCE

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:ecqdnVCQIY5qzSHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">ecqdnVCQIY5qzSHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>

&gt; If you own a new hemi, if I were you, I would not bet your title that you
&gt; will 'walk away' from any old Hemi. LOL
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:NoOption5L&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">NoOption5L&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153188876.915508.151570&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153188876.915508.151570&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; Whitelightning wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt; .
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; 1) The modern 6.1L Hemi is NET rated at what the old 7L Hemi was rated
&gt;&gt; in GROSS HP.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; 2) And a modern SRT Hemi car will walk any old Hemi car.
&gt;&gt;


Those of us old enough to remember such stuff recall:

The 426 hemi was built to compete against the Ford and Chevy 427 engines in
stock car races of the mid-60s. In order to qualify as a &quot;stock&quot; engine, a
minimum of 500 had to be produced and installed in cars available to the
public at dealerships. At the time, the Fed limited stock engine horsepower
ratings to 425 hp, thus the 425 hp rating of the 426 hemi.

The problem was (or not really a problem) that many people that bought the
original hemi from a dealership and put the car on a dyno were surprised and
delighted that they actually produced as much as 550 hp as delivered.
It also didn't take a lot of money or mods to tune these beasts up to around
600 hp.

BTW .... regarding the weight questions on the new Charger versus the old
..... I have a '69 Charger R/T (440 not 426). Weight is 3,636 lbs.

Eisboch

www.eisboch.com/glforsale

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#73: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 15:39:43 by MikeHunt2

Ya right. See what happens when you tramp on the throttle, in each, at
those speeds, particularly on a steep grade. ;)


mike hunt


&quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt;
&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:PuqcnVhYpfKTASPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">PuqcnVhYpfKTASPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Thanks for proving my point, about the importance of torque to HP! A
&gt;&gt; 2007 GT is only running a 1,900 RPMs at 70 MPH. 2,200 at 80 MPH The
&gt;&gt; Toyota needs to be at nearly 3000 RPMs to attain 70 MPH At 3,000 the
&gt;&gt; Mustang
&gt;
&gt; LMAO, Where are you getting the shit? IN WHICH GEAR??? The only way the
&gt; 2007 V-6 Camry spins 3000 RPM at 70 miles per hour is if you leave it in
&gt; 3rd and don't use the top two gears.
&gt; The last (190 HP) Toyota I drove idled along at 75 MPH in overdrive at
&gt; 1800 RPM...
&gt;

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#74: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 18:50:44 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#75: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 19:58:06 by cewhite3

&quot;Carlton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu" target="_blank">carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:zwOvg.12$<a href="mailto:GS4.0&#64;fe09.lga..." target="_blank">GS4.0&#64;fe09.lga...</a>

&gt; BTW the transmission you don't feel shift is called the CVT transmission.
&gt; Not sure if Toyota has it, but the Ford Freestyle does.
&gt;
&gt; It will drive you CRAZY, trust me.......

I love the Freestyle CVT. It is my second car with a CVT (actually it is my
Mother's car, but I've driven it more than her). My first CVT was in a
Saturn and although it gave superior performance to the 5 speed manual, it
had ,&lt;hmmm&gt; problems - especially when abused by a 16 year old. Last week I
drove the Freestyle to Baltimore (310 mile one way trip up I-95). I was
extremely pleased with the performance. The fuel economy was good (not as
good as a Sable on a similar trip, but still good - around 25 mpg mostly
going 75+ mpg). I hardly noticed the way the transmission performed at all.
Very smooth at all times. Lots of passenger and luggage room. Great A/C. My
only complaint was the standard radio - wish it would play MP3s.

Ed

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#76: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 20:04:20 by Blue Mesteno

&quot;John S.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:fishinjts&#64;netscape.net" target="_blank">fishinjts&#64;netscape.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt; On the subject of torque... You feel torque and talk about
&gt; horsepower... Torque wins races!

No offense, but if it was about torque, then we'd all drive John Deere
tractors. It's not all about torque. The John Deere 6135 produces 600hp at
2100rpm and 1881 lb/ft of torque at a piddling 1600 rpm. 1/4 mile speed???
60 seconds??
--
Scott W.
'68 Ranchero 500 302
'69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
ThunderSnake #57
<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/</a>

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#77: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 20:09:42 by MikeHunt2

There are no 'shift' to feel, only changing drive ratio cones. When
starting out or climbing a grade, with a vehicle equipped with a CVT, one
needs to floor the throttle to get to the lowest gear to do the job, then
let up when you get to the speed you want to attain.. Otherwise you are
starting, or climbing, in the higher ratios of the tranny, and in the wrong
part of the torque curve

mike hunt


&quot;Carlton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu" target="_blank">carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 03:47:54 -0700, John S. wrote:
&gt;
&gt; BTW the transmission you don't feel shift is called the CVT transmission.

&gt; Not sure if Toyota has it, but the Ford Freestyle does. (and the 500)
&gt;
&gt; It will drive you CRAZY, trust me.......
&gt;
&gt;

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#78: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 20:20:42 by MikeHunt2

The best definition is HP gets one speed, Torque get one going quickly and
what keep you going on the grades. Your chose is speed versus quick, even a
4cy can go 100 MPH, it takes torque at the right speed to go quickly and
keep up to the speed limit on the long grades. That is why the 500 does so
well with only 203 HP, the CVT keeps the tranny on the top of the torque
curve and 203 is enough HP to go over 100 MPH if you wish.

mike hunt


&quot;Blue Mesteno&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:69ta_mustang&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">69ta_mustang&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt;
&gt; &quot;John S.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:fishinjts&#64;netscape.net" target="_blank">fishinjts&#64;netscape.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt; On the subject of torque... You feel torque and talk about
&gt;&gt; horsepower... Torque wins races!
&gt;
&gt; No offense, but if it was about torque, then we'd all drive John Deere
&gt; tractors. It's not all about torque. The John Deere 6135 produces 600hp at
&gt; 2100rpm and 1881 lb/ft of torque at a piddling 1600 rpm. 1/4 mile speed???
&gt; 60 seconds??
&gt; --
&gt; Scott W.
&gt; '68 Ranchero 500 302
&gt; '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
&gt; ThunderSnake #57
&gt; <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/</a>
&gt;

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#79: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 20:52:55 by fishinjts

Blue Mesteno wrote:
&gt; &quot;John S.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:fishinjts&#64;netscape.net" target="_blank">fishinjts&#64;netscape.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt; &gt; On the subject of torque... You feel torque and talk about
&gt; &gt; horsepower... Torque wins races!
&gt;
&gt; No offense, but if it was about torque, then we'd all drive John Deere
&gt; tractors. It's not all about torque. The John Deere 6135 produces 600hp at
&gt; 2100rpm and 1881 lb/ft of torque at a piddling 1600 rpm. 1/4 mile speed???
&gt; 60 seconds??
&gt; --
&gt; Scott W.
&gt; '68 Ranchero 500 302
&gt; '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
&gt; ThunderSnake #57
&gt; <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/</a>

no offense taken... but... I didn't say it was ALL about torque... I
think people just get hung up on HP without looking at the torque
numbers... For a 1/4 mile Torque is a very important factor...

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#80: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:22:13 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#81: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:29:55 by cewhite3

&quot;Carlton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu" target="_blank">carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:%KQvg.2622$<a href="mailto:6q.390&#64;fe12.lga..." target="_blank">6q.390&#64;fe12.lga...</a>

&gt; To each his own :)
&gt; I drove the 2006 Freestyle and while I liked the SUV I didn't like the CVT
&gt; at all. I thought it seemed to be lugging down the engine. IOW it made the
&gt; car feel slow. I agree that it was very smooth though and looking at the
&gt; tach I couldn't feel any changes other than the sluggishness.
&gt; Maybe the engine just needs more power? I don't really know.

Well you would be wrong. I think you are confusing noise and thrashing about
with power. The Freestyle is as fast or faster than any of it's six cylinder
competitors (Pacifica, Avalon, 6 cylinder 300, 6 cylinder Magnum). BTW, I
think calling the Freestyle an SUV is a misnomer (even if Ford claims it is
one). It is nothing more or less than a Five Hundred Station Wagon. It is
said that calling something a station wagon is now a bad thing.

&gt; The reason I said it drove me crazy is because I like to know where I am
&gt; as far as gear/torque/rpm etc because once you learn the car you can get
&gt; the most performance out of it.
&gt; With the CVT, there it's just *there* and that's it.
&gt; Kinda felt weird to me.

Just floor it! The engine management system handles matching the engine
speed to the gear ratio to achieve the maximum speed. Even my Vue handled
that well. The CVT Vue was significantly faster to 60 than the 5 speed
manual Vue with the same engine (or the current models with a conventional
automatic). You just have to get over the idea that you have to feel shifts.

Ed

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#82: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:58:18 by JohnH

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 08:57:38 -0400, &quot;Eisboch&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rce&#64;nowhere.com" target="_blank">rce&#64;nowhere.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;
&gt;&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;news:<a href="mailto:ecqdnVCQIY5qzSHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">ecqdnVCQIY5qzSHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt; If you own a new hemi, if I were you, I would not bet your title that you
&gt;&gt; will 'walk away' from any old Hemi. LOL
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:NoOption5L&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">NoOption5L&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153188876.915508.151570&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153188876.915508.151570&#64;b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Whitelightning wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; .
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; 1) The modern 6.1L Hemi is NET rated at what the old 7L Hemi was rated
&gt;&gt;&gt; in GROSS HP.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; 2) And a modern SRT Hemi car will walk any old Hemi car.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Those of us old enough to remember such stuff recall:
&gt;
&gt;The 426 hemi was built to compete against the Ford and Chevy 427 engines in
&gt;stock car races of the mid-60s. In order to qualify as a &quot;stock&quot; engine, a
&gt;minimum of 500 had to be produced and installed in cars available to the
&gt;public at dealerships. At the time, the Fed limited stock engine horsepower
&gt;ratings to 425 hp, thus the 425 hp rating of the 426 hemi.
&gt;
&gt;The problem was (or not really a problem) that many people that bought the
&gt;original hemi from a dealership and put the car on a dyno were surprised and
&gt;delighted that they actually produced as much as 550 hp as delivered.
&gt;It also didn't take a lot of money or mods to tune these beasts up to around
&gt;600 hp.
&gt;
&gt;BTW .... regarding the weight questions on the new Charger versus the old
&gt;.... I have a '69 Charger R/T (440 not 426). Weight is 3,636 lbs.
&gt;
&gt;Eisboch
&gt;
&gt;www.eisboch.com/glforsale
&gt;

It's nice to see you expanding your horizons!
--
******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

John

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#83: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:58:21 by My Names Nobody

I didn't pit a Toyota Camry against the V-6 Mustang, Mike Hunter was the one
who erroneously quipped off &quot;A V6 Mustang will blow the doors off a Camry
with EITHER engine LOL&quot;.

That small distinction kinda makes the rest of your comparisons somewhat
irrelevant here...

Keep in mind I don't own or like the Toyota Camry, I speak up only to
disprove utter bullshit.

BTW:
The last Camry I drove was a 1999 190HP V-6 5 speed manual, and it was no
slouch.
What kind of power was the V-6 Mustang cranking out in 1999?


&quot;John S.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:fishinjts&#64;netscape.net" target="_blank">fishinjts&#64;netscape.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153392474.832374.229830&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153392474.832374.229830&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt; Actually given the price of a 3.5 V6 Camry you really need to compare
&gt; it to the Mustang GT!
&gt;
&gt; Your beloved 2007 Camry has an MSRP of $24,300 while the Mustang V6
&gt; list for only $19,100! MSRP on a Mustang GT is $25,100 (some places
&gt; actually sell them for that... LOL). So for an extra $800 you can get
&gt; a 300HP Mustang GT! LOL!
&gt;
&gt; Also your Camry is only available in an automatic... I'm guessing it s
&gt; a smooth, slow shifting automatic at that... While the Mustang is
&gt; avaible in a manual so it will have less power loss.. (Have you seen
&gt; that new commerical for the car where you don't even feel it shift?
&gt; What's up with that??? LOL!)
&gt;
&gt; On the subject of torque... You feel torque and talk about
&gt; horsepower... Torque wins races! Both cars have about the same torque
&gt; but the Mustang V6 makes peak earlier... Now I'm very familar with the
&gt; torque curves on the Mustang but not on the Camry. I can tell you the
&gt; torque curve on the Mustang V6 is really good. Torque comes on early
&gt; and stays nice and flat. I will have to see if I can find a Camry
&gt; dynosheet... But I doubt will be as good as the Mustang's. The 4.0L
&gt; is a torquey little motor! 2 stock automatics would probably be a close
&gt; race... but I think a stock manual Mustang is going to beat the
&gt; Camry...
&gt;
&gt; But then again the Camry is $5000 more than the Mustang V6! For $5000
&gt; you can add F/I to the Mustang and have some serious FUN! LOL! (and
&gt; please don't whine to me about voiding my warranty... LOL)
&gt;
&gt; And of course... dont' forget the &quot;gawk&quot; factor! I have never owned a
&gt; car that gets &quot;gawked&quot; at as much and my 05 Stang... There will always
&gt; be cars out there that are FASTER than The Mistress, but not many that
&gt; are better looking! LOL!
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; My Names Nobody wrote:
&gt;&gt; Ya OK, you wish. LOL
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; 2007 Camry, V6 3.5-liter high-output V6, 268-horsepower at 6200 rpm, 248
&gt;&gt; lb-ft of torque at 4700 rpm
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; 2007 Ford Mustang, V6 standard 4.0-liter, V6, 210-horsepower at 5,250
&gt;&gt; rpm,
&gt;&gt; 240 lb-ft of torque at 3500 rpm
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Before you get too excited about the power being at higher RPMs, have a
&gt;&gt; look at the Mustangs V-8 numbers...
&gt;&gt; 2007 Ford Mustang, V8 4.6-liter, V8, 300-horsepower at 5,750 rpm, 320
&gt;&gt; lb-ft
&gt;&gt; of torque at 4,500 rpm
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I can see all the Camry doors all over the shoulders of the roads now,
&gt;&gt; NOT...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">GsqcnVaqHrch8iPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;A V6 Mustang will blow the doors off a Camry with EITHER engine LOL
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt; news:pccvg.3334$<a href="mailto:us.2493&#64;trnddc04..." target="_blank">us.2493&#64;trnddc04...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">xhCdndPN4tiOdiHZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Most buyers buy what they buy because the believe that is the best
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; buy
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; for their money. The ONLY Toyota that is the number one seller, in
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; its
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; class is the Camry, however. Performance? That's funny, 8 out of
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; 10
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Camrys sold in the US are 4cy and way underpowered compared to those
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; of
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; its competitors that offer V6s for much less money.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Kinda like most Mustangs sold huh? LOL
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153208496.162808.326050&#64;35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href="mailto:rantonrave&#64;mail.com" target="_blank">rantonrave&#64;mail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;news:<a href="mailto:1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153108528.639442.125700&#64;h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Lest we forget both GM and Ford outsell ANY of the imports, as well.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Irrelevant (quality != quantity) and misleading ( GM + Ford is
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;bigger
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;than Toyota, but Toyota + Ford is bigger than GM, but so what?).
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;GM
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;is
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;also #1 in China, but again, so what?
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;car in the US? ;)
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I doubt it's all due to quality but also because of performance,
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; comfort, and resale value. What do you think is the reason?
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;

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#84: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:58:25 by My Names Nobody

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:Hc-dnYNfPLk-GiLZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">Hc-dnYNfPLk-GiLZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; Ya right. See what happens when you tramp on the throttle, in each, at
&gt; those speeds, particularly on a steep grade. ;)
&gt;
&gt;

So Mike, are you now back peddling away from your fictitious speed to RPM
comparison crap you posted?
Do you now see the error of you ways, forgetting about gear ratios?


&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:1pFvg.8081$<a href="mailto:Ss2.2128&#64;trnddc01..." target="_blank">Ss2.2128&#64;trnddc01...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:PuqcnVhYpfKTASPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">PuqcnVhYpfKTASPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks for proving my point, about the importance of torque to HP! A
&gt;&gt;&gt; 2007 GT is only running a 1,900 RPMs at 70 MPH. 2,200 at 80 MPH The
&gt;&gt;&gt; Toyota needs to be at nearly 3000 RPMs to attain 70 MPH At 3,000 the
&gt;&gt;&gt; Mustang
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; LMAO, Where are you getting the shit? IN WHICH GEAR??? The only way
&gt;&gt; the 2007 V-6 Camry spins 3000 RPM at 70 miles per hour is if you leave it
&gt;&gt; in 3rd and don't use the top two gears.
&gt;&gt; The last (190 HP) Toyota I drove idled along at 75 MPH in overdrive at
&gt;&gt; 1800 RPM...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#85: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:58:35 by My Names Nobody

&quot;Carlton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu" target="_blank">carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:%KQvg.2622$<a href="mailto:6q.390&#64;fe12.lga..." target="_blank">6q.390&#64;fe12.lga...</a>
&gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:58:06 -0400, C. E. White wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I love the Freestyle CVT. It is my second car with a CVT (actually it is
&gt;&gt; my
&gt;&gt; Mother's car, but I've driven it more than her). My first CVT was in a
&gt;&gt; Saturn and although it gave superior performance to the 5 speed manual,
&gt;&gt; it
&gt;&gt; had ,&lt;hmmm&gt; problems - especially when abused by a 16 year old. Last week
&gt;&gt; I
&gt;&gt; drove the Freestyle to Baltimore (310 mile one way trip up I-95). I was
&gt;&gt; extremely pleased with the performance. The fuel economy was good (not as
&gt;&gt; good as a Sable on a similar trip, but still good - around 25 mpg mostly
&gt;&gt; going 75+ mpg). I hardly noticed the way the transmission performed at
&gt;&gt; all.
&gt;&gt; Very smooth at all times. Lots of passenger and luggage room. Great A/C.
&gt;&gt; My
&gt;&gt; only complaint was the standard radio - wish it would play MP3s.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Ed
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; To each his own :)
&gt; I drove the 2006 Freestyle and while I liked the SUV I didn't like the CVT
&gt; at all. I thought it seemed to be lugging down the engine. IOW it made the
&gt; car feel slow. I agree that it was very smooth though and looking at the
&gt; tach I couldn't feel any changes other than the sluggishness.
&gt; Maybe the engine just needs more power? I don't really know.
&gt;
&gt; The reason I said it drove me crazy is because I like to know where I am
&gt; as far as gear/torque/rpm etc because once you learn the car you can get
&gt; the most performance out of it.
&gt; With the CVT, there it's just *there* and that's it.
&gt; Kinda felt weird to me.

Where you are, is ALWAYS in the sweet spot of your power curve. That is why
the heaver all wheel drive CVT version of the Ford 500 is quicker than its
lighter front wheel drive automatic transaxle version Ford 500....

???

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#86: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:58:40 by My Names Nobody

&quot;John S.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:fishinjts&#64;netscape.net" target="_blank">fishinjts&#64;netscape.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:1153421575.469427.286330&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153421575.469427.286330&#64;m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Blue Mesteno wrote:
&gt;&gt; &quot;John S.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:fishinjts&#64;netscape.net" target="_blank">fishinjts&#64;netscape.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt; &gt; On the subject of torque... You feel torque and talk about
&gt;&gt; &gt; horsepower... Torque wins races!
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; No offense, but if it was about torque, then we'd all drive John Deere
&gt;&gt; tractors. It's not all about torque. The John Deere 6135 produces 600hp
&gt;&gt; at
&gt;&gt; 2100rpm and 1881 lb/ft of torque at a piddling 1600 rpm. 1/4 mile
&gt;&gt; speed???
&gt;&gt; 60 seconds??
&gt;&gt; --
&gt;&gt; Scott W.
&gt;&gt; '68 Ranchero 500 302
&gt;&gt; '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
&gt;&gt; ThunderSnake #57
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/</a>
&gt;
&gt; no offense taken... but... I didn't say it was ALL about torque... I
&gt; think people just get hung up on HP without looking at the torque
&gt; numbers... For a 1/4 mile Torque is a very important factor...
&gt;

But no more important than gear ratio...

Report this message

#87: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-20 21:59:14 by unknown

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#88: Re: Ford Running on Empty, hardly

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:05:38 by My Names Nobody

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:B5ucnfAb3peLdibZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">B5ucnfAb3peLdibZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; Todays Mustang GT has the 4.6V8 is a better engine than the 302, 300 HP
&gt; and 345 FP of torque. The limited production Cobra has the engine from
&gt; the Ford GT with a supercharger and 500 HP and 445 FP of torque from what
&gt; I've heard.

It has specifically not been called a &quot;Cobra&quot; by Ford, it is titled the
Shelby GT500. It does not use the GT engine. It is a cast iron 5.4 block
(the GT uses an aluminum block) with aluminum heads from the GT.


&gt; The MSRP for the coupe is 40K, 45K for the convertible but dealers are
&gt; getting 5K to 10K over MSRP. Every Ford dealer gets one, Presidents Award
&gt; dealers get two.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Whitelightning&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:2YAug.5346$<a href="mailto:Ss2.5148&#64;trnddc01..." target="_blank">Ss2.5148&#64;trnddc01...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:_mAug.11405$<a href="mailto:pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt;&gt;&gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt;&gt;&gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them!
&gt;&gt;&gt; hahaha
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Careful now, lol. In 1985 one of the performance mags did a head to head
&gt;&gt; to
&gt;&gt; find the &quot;fastest&quot;
&gt;&gt; production car. Of course the Corvette won hands down over all even
&gt;&gt; after
&gt;&gt; Chevrolet made them put a roll cage in the car and locked out 6th gear on
&gt;&gt; the tranny, the Camaro IROC nudged out the Pontiac Firebird for 2 nd
&gt;&gt; place,
&gt;&gt; and forth place went to the Buick Grand National, which beat the Firebird
&gt;&gt; for top end, but got beat bad in the 1/4 mile, but the big surprise was
&gt;&gt; the
&gt;&gt; Dodge Omni GLH whooped the 5.0 Ford Mustang, not just on top end, but in
&gt;&gt; the
&gt;&gt; 1/4 mile as well.. A couple years later the Omni was gone, as was the
&gt;&gt; Grand
&gt;&gt; National, but the big upset winners were both GM trucks, the Cyclone, and
&gt;&gt; the Typhoon, which almost beat the damn Corvette in the 1/4 mile.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Whitelightning
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#89: Re: Ford Running on Empty, hardly

Posted on 2006-07-20 22:13:29 by My Names Nobody

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:B5ucnfAb3peLdibZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">B5ucnfAb3peLdibZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; Todays Mustang GT has the 4.6V8 is a better engine than the 302, 300 HP
&gt; and 345 FP of torque. The limited production Cobra has the engine from
&gt; the Ford GT with a supercharger and 500 HP and 445 FP of torque from what
&gt; I've heard.


2007 FORD SHELBY GT500 OFFICIALLY RATED AT 500 HORSEPOWER

Horsepower
500 hp @ 6,000 rpm (SAE Certified)

Torque
480 lb.-ft. @ 4,500 rpm (SAE Certified)

<a href="http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=23017" target="_blank"> http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=2 3017</a>



&gt; The MSRP for the coupe is 40K, 45K for the convertible but dealers are
&gt; getting 5K to 10K over MSRP. Every Ford dealer gets one, Presidents Award
&gt; dealers get two.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Whitelightning&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:2YAug.5346$<a href="mailto:Ss2.5148&#64;trnddc01..." target="_blank">Ss2.5148&#64;trnddc01...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:_mAug.11405$<a href="mailto:pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.261436&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; long as the drives stay in the rear, and they keep the v8 ;P
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; I really wish they wouldnt even PUT the v6 in them. it kindda ruins
&gt;&gt;&gt; them... like the fox stangs 4 banger, what a gutless piece of junk that
&gt;&gt;&gt; was... 2.3L Wasn't it? the ford tempo's could walk all over them!
&gt;&gt;&gt; hahaha
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Careful now, lol. In 1985 one of the performance mags did a head to head
&gt;&gt; to
&gt;&gt; find the &quot;fastest&quot;
&gt;&gt; production car. Of course the Corvette won hands down over all even
&gt;&gt; after
&gt;&gt; Chevrolet made them put a roll cage in the car and locked out 6th gear on
&gt;&gt; the tranny, the Camaro IROC nudged out the Pontiac Firebird for 2 nd
&gt;&gt; place,
&gt;&gt; and forth place went to the Buick Grand National, which beat the Firebird
&gt;&gt; for top end, but got beat bad in the 1/4 mile, but the big surprise was
&gt;&gt; the
&gt;&gt; Dodge Omni GLH whooped the 5.0 Ford Mustang, not just on top end, but in
&gt;&gt; the
&gt;&gt; 1/4 mile as well.. A couple years later the Omni was gone, as was the
&gt;&gt; Grand
&gt;&gt; National, but the big upset winners were both GM trucks, the Cyclone, and
&gt;&gt; the Typhoon, which almost beat the damn Corvette in the 1/4 mile.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Whitelightning
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#90: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 00:58:59 by jeff

&quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:LfRvg.9717$<a href="mailto:Ss2.2895&#64;trnddc01..." target="_blank">Ss2.2895&#64;trnddc01...</a>

(...)

&gt;&gt; The reason I said it drove me crazy is because I like to know where I am
&gt;&gt; as far as gear/torque/rpm etc because once you learn the car you can get
&gt;&gt; the most performance out of it.
&gt;&gt; With the CVT, there it's just *there* and that's it.
&gt;&gt; Kinda felt weird to me.
&gt;
&gt; Where you are, is ALWAYS in the sweet spot of your power curve. That is
&gt; why the heaver all wheel drive CVT version of the Ford 500 is quicker than
&gt; its lighter front wheel drive automatic transaxle version Ford 500....

Actually, it depends.

If you are accelearating fast, you are at the sweet part of the power curve.
And as you go faster, the effective gear ratio changes automatically to keep
you there.

When you are cruising down the highway, you are at the sweet part of the
economy curve.

This provides perforance and economy.

When I went to the NYC Auto Show, they had a model that showed how it
worked. Quite simple, really. And, when they work right, really cool.


Jeff

&gt;
&gt; ???
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#91: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:28:36 by Mark Jones

Whitelightning wrote:
&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:NoOdnQldU66fcSPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">NoOdnQldU66fcSPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; I can only assume you never owned one of those car if that is what
&gt;&gt; you believe LOL
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt; Obviously he never drove one. There is a hell of a difference
&gt; between 350 cid, and 426 cid.
&gt;
&gt; Ahh those were the days,Chrysler's 426 hemi's, Ford's 429 cobra jet
&gt; ala 1970 Torino, and Chevy's '63 409 cid, and the later 427 cid
&gt; engines, and last but not least, the '70 Buick StageI with the 455
&gt; cid, 510 ft pounds of torque, at 2,600 rpm.
Displacement differences are made up by fuel injection,
superchargers and turbochargers, and the electronics
systems that allow maximum spark advance to be used
because of the knock sensors. Quite simply, the stock
autos from the late 60's and early 70's were not producing
as much power as these new cars.

Magazine test data that compares the old and new cars
has repeatedly shown that the old cars were not actually
as fast as many people think.

Report this message

#92: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 01:57:52 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#93: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:22:43 by jeff

&quot;David M&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:NOSPAM&#64;nospam.com" target="_blank">NOSPAM&#64;nospam.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:4MUvg.20741$<a href="mailto:so3.5926&#64;southeast.rr.com..." target="_blank">so3.5926&#64;southeast.rr.com...</a>
&gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:20:42 -0400, Mike Hunter rearranged some electrons
&gt; to form:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; The best definition is HP gets one speed, Torque get one going quickly
&gt;&gt; and
&gt;&gt; what keep you going on the grades. Your chose is speed versus quick,
&gt;&gt; even a
&gt;&gt; 4cy can go 100 MPH, it takes torque at the right speed to go quickly and
&gt;&gt; keep up to the speed limit on the long grades. That is why the 500 does
&gt;&gt; so
&gt;&gt; well with only 203 HP, the CVT keeps the tranny on the top of the torque
&gt;&gt; curve and 203 is enough HP to go over 100 MPH if you wish.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt; Horsepower (or any unit of power) is a force
&gt; applied through a distance per unit time.
&gt;
&gt; force x distance / time. 1HP = 33,000 ft-lbs of work per minute.
&gt;
&gt; Torque is force applied about a pivot.
&gt; 100 pounds around a 1-ft radius is 100 lb-ft. 50 pounds around a
&gt; 2 ft radius is ALSO 100 lb-ft.

What's your point?

Torque is analagous to force. In fact, it is rotational force.

And Horsepower = Torque (in ft-lbs) x angular speed (in RPMs) / 5252.

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque</a>

Jeff

&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Blue Mesteno&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:69ta_mustang&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">69ta_mustang&#64;comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:UuOdnV9P4sHjWCLZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">UuOdnV9P4sHjWCLZnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;John S.&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:fishinjts&#64;netscape.net" target="_blank">fishinjts&#64;netscape.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On the subject of torque... You feel torque and talk about
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; horsepower... Torque wins races!
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; No offense, but if it was about torque, then we'd all drive John Deere
&gt;&gt;&gt; tractors. It's not all about torque. The John Deere 6135 produces 600hp
&gt;&gt;&gt; at
&gt;&gt;&gt; 2100rpm and 1881 lb/ft of torque at a piddling 1600 rpm. 1/4 mile
&gt;&gt;&gt; speed???
&gt;&gt;&gt; 60 seconds??
&gt;&gt;&gt; --
&gt;&gt;&gt; Scott W.
&gt;&gt;&gt; '68 Ranchero 500 302
&gt;&gt;&gt; '69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
&gt;&gt;&gt; ThunderSnake #57
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; David M (dmacchiarolo)
&gt; <a href="http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled" target="_blank">http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled</a>
&gt; T/S 53
&gt; sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 21:30 1 user
&gt;

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#94: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:34:57 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#95: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 02:44:09 by jeff

&quot;Carlton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu" target="_blank">carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:NjVvg.256$<a href="mailto:GS4.169&#64;fe09.lga..." target="_blank">GS4.169&#64;fe09.lga...</a>
&gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 23:57:52 +0000, David M wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Horsepower (or any unit of power) is a force
&gt;&gt; applied through a distance per unit time.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; force x distance / time. 1HP = 33,000 ft-lbs of work per minute.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Torque is force applied about a pivot.
&gt;&gt; 100 pounds around a 1-ft radius is 100 lb-ft. 50 pounds around a
&gt;&gt; 2 ft radius is ALSO 100 lb-ft.
&gt;
&gt; Let's talk angular momentum.....
&gt; That one gave me fits in Physics class....
&gt;
&gt; Thank goodness for my HP 41CV Calculator....

I have an HP 11C. Great calculator.

But I am not an old fart (although my nephew farts so much that if you
hooked his butt up to a tank, he could supply half the natural gas needs of
a small town).

Jeff
&gt; (now you know I am an old fart!!!)
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#96: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:13:45 by unknown

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#97: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 03:28:22 by jeff

&quot;Carlton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu" target="_blank">carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:aUVvg.258$<a href="mailto:GS4.63&#64;fe09.lga..." target="_blank">GS4.63&#64;fe09.lga...</a>
&gt; On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:44:09 +0000, Jeff wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I have an HP 11C. Great calculator.
&gt;
&gt; Kool!
&gt;
&gt;&gt; But I am not an old fart (although my nephew farts so much that if you
&gt;&gt; hooked his butt up to a tank, he could supply half the natural gas needs
&gt;&gt; of
&gt;&gt; a small town).
&gt;
&gt; I played in a band with a guy like that.
&gt; He used to eat the worst food, like Indian food, White Castle and some
&gt; seafood thing his wife made. Boolabase (Sp?) or something like that.
&gt;
&gt; He couldn't power a small town though because the amount of alcohol going
&gt; into him was greater, energy wise, than the methane produced.
&gt; A very inefficient machine his bowels were :)

Have you ever heard the word &quot;oversharing?&quot;

That is more than I wanted to know.

Jeff

&gt;
&gt;&gt; Jeff
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#98: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 04:26:23 by Whitelightning

&quot;Mark Jones&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:noemail&#64;mindspring.com" target="_blank">noemail&#64;mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:EkUvg.2512$<a href="mailto:157.1363&#64;newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">157.1363&#64;newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt; Whitelightning wrote:
&gt; Displacement differences are made up by fuel injection,
&gt; superchargers and turbochargers, and the electronics
&gt; systems that allow maximum spark advance to be used
&gt; because of the knock sensors. Quite simply, the stock
&gt; autos from the late 60's and early 70's were not producing
&gt; as much power as these new cars.
&gt;
&gt; Magazine test data that compares the old and new cars
&gt; has repeatedly shown that the old cars were not actually
&gt; as fast as many people think.
&gt;
Can you take one of the new dodges, slap a set of 10 inch drag slicks,
and a set of slapper bars on it and pull the front wheels off the ground?
The 70 cuda's and challengers would do just that. with the 426 hemi ,
dual four barrels and four speed tranny. Stock off the show room floor
turn 1/4 miles in the low 13's at 104-113 mph . Car and Driver tested
the 2005 300 with the 5.7 and turned consistent 14.4 1/4 miles times,
which is not a shabby time by any means, but it aint a low 13 ether, and
the 2004 Pontiac GTO beats it at 13.3, with a 4.8 , again as tested by C&amp;D.

The hemi is a good engine, but dodge is pushing it like its a 426, and it
aint,
and many buying it don't know no better any ways.

Whitelightning

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#99: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 04:29:48 by unknown

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#100: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 06:12:37 by Mark Jones

Whitelightning wrote:
&gt; &quot;Mark Jones&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:noemail&#64;mindspring.com" target="_blank">noemail&#64;mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:EkUvg.2512$<a href="mailto:157.1363&#64;newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">157.1363&#64;newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Whitelightning wrote:
&gt;&gt; Displacement differences are made up by fuel injection,
&gt;&gt; superchargers and turbochargers, and the electronics
&gt;&gt; systems that allow maximum spark advance to be used
&gt;&gt; because of the knock sensors. Quite simply, the stock
&gt;&gt; autos from the late 60's and early 70's were not producing
&gt;&gt; as much power as these new cars.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Magazine test data that compares the old and new cars
&gt;&gt; has repeatedly shown that the old cars were not actually
&gt;&gt; as fast as many people think.
&gt;&gt;
&gt; Can you take one of the new dodges, slap a set of 10 inch drag slicks,
&gt; and a set of slapper bars on it and pull the front wheels off the
&gt; ground? The 70 cuda's and challengers would do just that. with the
&gt; 426 hemi ,
&gt; dual four barrels and four speed tranny. Stock off the show room
&gt; floor turn 1/4 miles in the low 13's at 104-113 mph . Car and Driver
&gt; tested the 2005 300 with the 5.7 and turned consistent 14.4 1/4
&gt; miles times, which is not a shabby time by any means, but it aint a
&gt; low 13 ether, and the 2004 Pontiac GTO beats it at 13.3, with a 4.8 ,
&gt; again as tested by C&amp;D.
&gt;
&gt; The hemi is a good engine, but dodge is pushing it like its a 426,
&gt; and it aint,
&gt; and many buying it don't know no better any ways.

The tests that I saw showed the Dodge SRT-8 Hemis
turning the 1/4 mile in 13.4 sec @ 105 mph.

That is done with the tires that were on the vehicle
when it left the dealer.

The SRT-8 is more powerful than just a regular Hemi equipped
vehicle.

Report this message

#101: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-21 14:28:17 by Ed White

Carlton wrote:
&gt; On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:29:55 -0400, C. E. White wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Well you would be wrong. I think you are confusing noise and thrashing
&gt; &gt; about with power.
&gt;
&gt; Actually I think my opinion is more in line with what the reviewers are
&gt; saying.

It is a perception problem. People (even &quot;professional&quot; reviewers) ae
used to getting jerked around by the transmission during hard
acceleration. When they aren't, they assume the vehicle is slow. The
Freestyle is not going to outrun any hemi 300's, but it is certainly
not slow compared to other vehicles in it's class.

Here is alist of vehicles and a scrambled list of 0-60 times (from
Consumer reports) -

Match them up (answers below)

A - 2005 Saturn Relay 3 minivan, 3.5-liter V6, 4-speed automatic
B - 2004 Pacifica AWD, 3.5-liter V6, 4-speed automatic
C - 2005 Magnum SXT wagon, 3.5-liter V6, 4-speed automatic
D - 2005 Freestyle SEL 4-door SUV AWD, 3.0-liter V6, CVT
E - 2005 Jeep Laredo 4-door SUV 4WD, 4.7-liter V8, 5-speed automatic
F - 2004 Lexus 4-door SUV AWD, 3.3-liter V6, 5-speed automatic

1 - 8.8 sec
2 - 8.8 sec
3 - 9.7 sec
4 - 10.2 sec
5 - 8.8 sec
6 - 9.1 sec

Here are the answers.
..
..
..
..
..
..
A - 4
B - 3
C - 2
D - 6
E - 1
F - 5

The Freestyle is in the middle of the pack, significantly faster than
the Relay, slightly faster than the Pacfica, and slightly slower than
the Magnum, Lexus RX, and Laradeo (0.3 sec - could you ever detect that
without electronic timing gear?).. However, the Freestyle has
significantly more interior room than all of them except the relay. So
I say that peopel that claim the Freestlye is slow or under powered are
ignoring facts. They are just missing the jerking around associated
with normal automatics.

Ed

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#102: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 03:01:18 by Ed White

Mark Jones wrote:

&gt; Magazine test data that compares the old and new cars
&gt; has repeatedly shown that the old cars were not actually
&gt; as fast as many people think.

Tires!

Ed

Report this message

#103: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 05:15:16 by joe

&quot;Whitelightning&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:vlSug.3597$<a href="mailto:RV.2480&#64;trnddc08..." target="_blank">RV.2480&#64;trnddc08...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:-JqcnfBtIZiLcCbZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">-JqcnfBtIZiLcCbZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Then how do you explain why the Camry is the number one selling car in
&gt;&gt; the
&gt;&gt; US? ;)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;&gt;
&gt; because all you have to say to the common ignorant American consumer is
&gt; that
&gt; if its manufactured by any one but an American Corporation, it has to be
&gt; better, and they
&gt; believe it.

Now, wait a minute - 50 years ago nobody would have thought products made
overseas were better than those made in the U.S. We've changed, and it
wasn't because of greater ignorance.

Something happened that convinced a lot of regular people to swear an oath
against GM and Ford, or U.S. cars in general. I don't know anybody who'd
rather not buy US-made products generally, but I know lots of people who
wouldn't ever buy a U.S. branded car. Most of them will tell you how they
got that way, if you ask them.

Better to figure out the reasons for change, rather than just imagining that
everybody who changes does so by becoming more ignorant. That's not very
likely.

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#104: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 05:17:27 by joe

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:PuqcnVhYpfKTASPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">PuqcnVhYpfKTASPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; Thanks for proving my point, about the importance of torque to HP!

I think you meant to say, &quot;Sorry, I was wrong. I didn't realize Camry's had
that much HP&quot;.

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#105: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 05:21:06 by joe

&quot;C. E. White&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cewhite3&#64;removemindspring.com" target="_blank">cewhite3&#64;removemindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:44bfda17$<a href="mailto:1&#64;kcnews01..." target="_blank">1&#64;kcnews01...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Carlton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu" target="_blank">carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:%KQvg.2622$<a href="mailto:6q.390&#64;fe12.lga..." target="_blank">6q.390&#64;fe12.lga...</a>
&gt;
BTW, I
&gt; think calling the Freestyle an SUV is a misnomer (even if Ford claims it
&gt; is
&gt; one). It is nothing more or less than a Five Hundred Station Wagon. It is
&gt; said that calling something a station wagon is now a bad thing.

You're right about this. Ford's SUV's start with E, including crossovers.
So the corporate position on the Freestyle is that it's a car. Cars start
with F, generally, so the Freestyle is being marketed as a car.

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#106: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 05:26:31 by cds

Joe wrote:
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt; Better to figure out the reasons for change, rather than just imagining that
&gt; everybody who changes does so by becoming more ignorant. That's not very
&gt; likely.

Actually it is the reverse. Most people that switched to foreign cars
got smart. The trouble for Detroit is that the Japanese know how to
keep a customer coming back and they don't. ;)

Report this message

#107: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 05:30:44 by joe

&quot;Whitelightning&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:%buug.5299$<a href="mailto:Ss2.973&#64;trnddc01..." target="_blank">Ss2.973&#64;trnddc01...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;lymee&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:eLtug.7103$<a href="mailto:gT3.1555&#64;fe09.lga..." target="_blank">gT3.1555&#64;fe09.lga...</a>
&gt;&gt; Because GM cars are dull.
&gt;&gt; They look dull.
&gt;&gt; The colors are boring and the styling looks like they took 1970's/80's
&gt;&gt; notchback cars like the Buick Regal, Monte Carlo etc and rounded off the
&gt;&gt; corners. The insides still scream OLD FART CLUB (of which I am a proud
&gt;&gt; member of at 46yo) even though the motors are starting to come back.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; What rocket scientist put the fire breathing V8 in a FWD car, the
&gt;&gt; MonteCarlo?
&gt;
&gt; Why not, lets see, Olds Tornado, Caddilac Eldarado, Coupe DeVille, STS,
&gt; Buick Rivera to
&gt; name a few.
&gt;
Those things drove poorly, though, you have to admit if you've had the
pleasure. 80/20 weight distribution isn't going to be the hot ticket, and
they've all bit the dust. The Seville is still around, back to rear drive.
I had a couple of Toronado daily drivers for years. Nice car, but drove
like a pig.

I agree with the general direction of lymee's post - GM makes too many
jellybean-type rental cars. Bad for their image, at least in my mind. Ford
makes a lot of them too, to be fair. When the big 3 bought their rental car
companies back years ago, I guess you could say there was an image cost to
that.

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#108: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 05:37:30 by joe

I think you better just give up this whole line of reasoning.

I'll take 400 net horsepower over a 426 any day. Even if the superior
performance of new Chryslers is all tires, I'll take it just because of the
tires too. And the gas mileage, and the build quality, and the electrical
system, and the air conditioning, and the body stiffness, and the handling,
and the durability, and the emissions, and the seats, and the radio. Can't
think of a thing about the old Hemis that was actually better. I never even
liked the styling.

&quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:hOucnUN51bn-CiPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">hOucnUN51bn-CiPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt; Apples to oranges. How about a Barracuda with an old hemi? ;)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:NoOption5L&#64;aol.com" target="_blank">NoOption5L&#64;aol.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:1153275482.436377.189700&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com..." target="_blank">1153275482.436377.189700&#64;m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; If you own a new hemi, if I were you, I would not bet your title that
&gt;&gt;&gt; you
&gt;&gt;&gt; will 'walk away' from any old Hemi. LOL
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Don't laugh. Find me an original road test where a normal production
&gt;&gt; Hemi car posts a trap speed of 109 mph. You don't have to bother
&gt;&gt; looking because you won't find any. 105 is it, with most posting trap
&gt;&gt; speeds closer to 100. And if you've been a subscriber to Hemmings
&gt;&gt; Muscle Machines magazine you'll have noted a few times where they've
&gt;&gt; stated the old Hemi cars aren't as fast as the new SRT Hemi cars, or
&gt;&gt; more like not even close to as fast.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Me... I'd bet the farm on the a new SRT Hemi...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Patrick
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; 1) The modern 6.1L Hemi is NET rated at what the old 7L Hemi was rated
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; in GROSS HP.
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; 2) And a modern SRT Hemi car will walk any old Hemi car.
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#109: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 05:39:05 by jeff

&quot;Michael Johnson, PE&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cds&#64;erols.com" target="_blank">cds&#64;erols.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com..." target="_blank">ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com...</a>
&gt; Joe wrote:
&gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;&gt; Better to figure out the reasons for change, rather than just imagining
&gt;&gt; that everybody who changes does so by becoming more ignorant. That's not
&gt;&gt; very likely.
&gt;
&gt; Actually it is the reverse. Most people that switched to foreign cars got
&gt; smart. The trouble for Detroit is that the Japanese know how to keep a
&gt; customer coming back and they don't. ;)

Actually, American car makers know how to keep costumers coming back.
Otherwise, they wouldn't have costumers. No one who has owned a foreign car
will go back and buy American ;-)

Seriously, a lot of people who own Chevies or Fords will replace the cars
with the same make.

Jeff

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#110: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 06:41:31 by cds

Jeff wrote:
&gt; &quot;Michael Johnson, PE&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cds&#64;erols.com" target="_blank">cds&#64;erols.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com..." target="_blank">ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; Joe wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Better to figure out the reasons for change, rather than just imagining
&gt;&gt;&gt; that everybody who changes does so by becoming more ignorant. That's not
&gt;&gt;&gt; very likely.
&gt;&gt; Actually it is the reverse. Most people that switched to foreign cars got
&gt;&gt; smart. The trouble for Detroit is that the Japanese know how to keep a
&gt;&gt; customer coming back and they don't. ;)
&gt;
&gt; Actually, American car makers know how to keep costumers coming back.
&gt; Otherwise, they wouldn't have costumers. No one who has owned a foreign car
&gt; will go back and buy American ;-)

GM, Ford and DC's market share drops every year and it has happened for
several years running. If they don't stop the bleeding it is just a
matter of time before Toyota will become the top seller in the US
market. I want to buy American but every time we look at a new car I am
get closer to choosing something foreign. I don't think the domestics
are horrible but they have this stigma with the American public they are
fighting of which some is deserved and some isn't. The Japanese makers
build very good cars across the board and provide service that gives the
buyer no reasons to not make their next purchase another Japanese car.

Here's my reason that the next car we buy (exclusive of a Mustang)
probably won't be a Ford/Lincoln/Mercury. We purchased a Sable off the
lot after our son totaled the T'Bird we drove for several years. The
car we wanted had a slight warp in the front brake rotors and the dealer
agreed to replace them before delivery of the car. We picked up the car
and everything seemed fine. Then at a little over 12k miles the rotors
warped again. I thought this was a slam dunk warranty fix. I was dead
wrong. Come to find out the dealer only resurfaced the rotors at
delivery instead of replacing them as agreed. Now they said we would
have to pay for the fix (i.e. new rotors). I contacted Ford corporate
and they sided with the dealer. Needless to say, you could have fried
an egg on my forehead at this point. I am still pissed over this two
years later. After buying Fords for two decades this is what I get for
my loyalty. Somehow I doubt a Toyota dealer would treat a loyal
customer this way. I'm sure I wouldn't get treated any worse.

&gt; Seriously, a lot of people who own Chevies or Fords will replace the cars
&gt; with the same make.

Every year that group of people gets smaller.

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#111: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 08:34:25 by Eisboch

&quot;Joe&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Joe&#64;dontspam.net" target="_blank">Joe&#64;dontspam.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:N3hwg.2479$<a href="mailto:1x2.538&#64;fe04.lga..." target="_blank">1x2.538&#64;fe04.lga...</a>
&gt;I think you better just give up this whole line of reasoning.
&gt;
&gt; I'll take 400 net horsepower over a 426 any day. Even if the superior
&gt; performance of new Chryslers is all tires, I'll take it just because of
&gt; the tires too. And the gas mileage, and the build quality, and the
&gt; electrical system, and the air conditioning, and the body stiffness, and
&gt; the handling, and the durability, and the emissions, and the seats, and
&gt; the radio. Can't think of a thing about the old Hemis that was actually
&gt; better. I never even liked the styling.
&gt;

How about this? A new hemi Charger is worth what, about $35-$40K? A '60s
vintage Mopar in decent shape with a hemi is worth well over $100k.

Eisboch

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#112: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 13:49:06 by unknown

Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)

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#113: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 17:46:58 by Picasso

Whitelightning wrote:
&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:NoOdnQldU66fcSPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">NoOdnQldU66fcSPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; I can only assume you never owned one of those car if that is what you
&gt;&gt; believe LOL
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt; Obviously he never drove one. There is a hell of a difference between 350
&gt; cid, and 426 cid.
&gt;
&gt; Ahh those were the days,Chrysler's 426 hemi's, Ford's 429 cobra jet ala 1970
&gt; Torino, and Chevy's '63 409 cid, and the later 427 cid engines, and last but
&gt; not least, the '70 Buick StageI with the 455 cid, 510 ft pounds of torque,
&gt; at 2,600 rpm.
&gt;
&gt; Whitelightning
&gt;
&gt;


Next to women, this is the next best thing

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#114: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 18:02:51 by 588

Jeff wrote:


&gt; Actually, American car makers know how to keep costumers coming back.
&gt; Otherwise, they wouldn't have costumers.


Who cares about the wardrobe people: what about the ones who buy the
tickets? You know, the customers?


Jack

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#115: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-22 18:23:42 by jeff

&quot;588&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:baron58y&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">baron58y&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:L_rwg.129578$<a href="mailto:H71.128188&#64;newssvr13.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">H71.128188&#64;newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt; Jeff wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Actually, American car makers know how to keep costumers coming back.
&gt;&gt; Otherwise, they wouldn't have costumers.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Who cares about the wardrobe people: what about the ones who buy the
&gt; tickets? You know, the customers?

They keep coming back. Otherwise they would have no costumers.

Some of the American car brands do have high loyalty rates.

Jeff

&gt;
&gt; Jack

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#116: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 06:02:49 by Hairy

&quot;Jeff&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kidsdoc2000&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">kidsdoc2000&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:iiswg.8340$<a href="mailto:vO.602&#64;newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">vO.602&#64;newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;588&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:baron58y&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">baron58y&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:L_rwg.129578$<a href="mailto:H71.128188&#64;newssvr13.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">H71.128188&#64;newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; Jeff wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Actually, American car makers know how to keep costumers coming back.
&gt; &gt;&gt; Otherwise, they wouldn't have costumers.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Who cares about the wardrobe people: what about the ones who buy the
&gt; &gt; tickets? You know, the customers?
&gt;
&gt; They keep coming back. Otherwise they would have no costumers.
&gt;
&gt; Some of the American car brands do have high loyalty rates.
&gt;
&gt; Jeff

~Whoosh~

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#117: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 18:02:01 by Matt Macchiarolo

I was the perp of a similar issue at a gig several years ago....earlier that
day I had roasted a head of garlic on the grill. The cloves turn into paste,
and you squeeze it out and spread it on a roll. Mmm. Anyway, I had probably
almost a half a head of garlic like that. That night, at the start of the
third set, it hit me, and by the end of the set I had my own little corner
of the stage because everyone else in the band was trying to get away from
me. The poor drummer, however, couldn't move. :-)

&quot;Carlton&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu" target="_blank">carl1029RivRv7FAKE&#64;nope.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:aUVvg.258$<a href="mailto:GS4.63&#64;fe09.lga..." target="_blank">GS4.63&#64;fe09.lga...</a>
&gt; On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 00:44:09 +0000, Jeff wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I have an HP 11C. Great calculator.
&gt;
&gt; Kool!
&gt;
&gt;&gt; But I am not an old fart (although my nephew farts so much that if you
&gt;&gt; hooked his butt up to a tank, he could supply half the natural gas needs
&gt;&gt; of
&gt;&gt; a small town).
&gt;
&gt; I played in a band with a guy like that.
&gt; He used to eat the worst food, like Indian food, White Castle and some
&gt; seafood thing his wife made. Boolabase (Sp?) or something like that.
&gt;
&gt; He couldn't power a small town though because the amount of alcohol going
&gt; into him was greater, energy wise, than the methane produced.
&gt; A very inefficient machine his bowels were :)
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Jeff
&gt;
&gt;

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#118: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 21:53:39 by MikeHunt2

Can't prove that by me, I came back to Ford Motor Company vehicles in 1999
after a half dozen Toyota and Lexus'. The Toyotas and the Lexus were great
cars but the Toyotas were underpowered and the Lexus were over priced.
Since I started buy Mustangs and Lincolns they too have been great cars.
Certainly not underpowered, or overpriced. I have been buying both for much
less than it was costing me to by Toyotas and Lexus'. In fact I saved so
much on my first Lincoln, a 2000 LS, that I bought my first Mustang since
1964, a 1999 GT convertible at the same time. That FLM dealer treats me
much better than did the Toyota or Lexus dealer ever did, as well Since
then I have purchase four more Mustangs and three more Lincolns for him


mike


&quot;Michael Johnson, PE&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cds&#64;erols.com" target="_blank">cds&#64;erols.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com..." target="_blank">ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com...</a>
&gt; Joe wrote:
&gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;&gt; Better to figure out the reasons for change, rather than just imagining
&gt;&gt; that everybody who changes does so by becoming more ignorant. That's not
&gt;&gt; very likely.
&gt;
&gt; Actually it is the reverse. Most people that switched to foreign cars got
&gt; smart. The trouble for Detroit is that the Japanese know how to keep a
&gt; customer coming back and they don't. ;)

Report this message

#119: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 21:59:18 by MikeHunt2

Imports sell to rental car companies too, they are just not as successful at
getting many fleets to buy their vehicles. The Korean do a better job of
doing that. The Koreans have a larger share of the fleet courier cars
business than the domestics, Europeans or the Japs. ;)


mike hunt




&quot;Joe&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Joe&#64;dontspam.net" target="_blank">Joe&#64;dontspam.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:rZgwg.2446$<a href="mailto:1x2.670&#64;fe04.lga..." target="_blank">1x2.670&#64;fe04.lga...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Whitelightning&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net" target="_blank">white.lightning2&#64;verizon.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:%buug.5299$<a href="mailto:Ss2.973&#64;trnddc01..." target="_blank">Ss2.973&#64;trnddc01...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;lymee&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com" target="_blank">irish.lymee&#64;yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:eLtug.7103$<a href="mailto:gT3.1555&#64;fe09.lga..." target="_blank">gT3.1555&#64;fe09.lga...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Because GM cars are dull.
&gt;&gt;&gt; They look dull.
&gt;&gt;&gt; The colors are boring and the styling looks like they took 1970's/80's
&gt;&gt;&gt; notchback cars like the Buick Regal, Monte Carlo etc and rounded off the
&gt;&gt;&gt; corners. The insides still scream OLD FART CLUB (of which I am a proud
&gt;&gt;&gt; member of at 46yo) even though the motors are starting to come back.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; What rocket scientist put the fire breathing V8 in a FWD car, the
&gt;&gt;&gt; MonteCarlo?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Why not, lets see, Olds Tornado, Caddilac Eldarado, Coupe DeVille, STS,
&gt;&gt; Buick Rivera to
&gt;&gt; name a few.
&gt;&gt;
&gt; Those things drove poorly, though, you have to admit if you've had the
&gt; pleasure. 80/20 weight distribution isn't going to be the hot ticket, and
&gt; they've all bit the dust. The Seville is still around, back to rear
&gt; drive. I had a couple of Toronado daily drivers for years. Nice car, but
&gt; drove like a pig.
&gt;
&gt; I agree with the general direction of lymee's post - GM makes too many
&gt; jellybean-type rental cars. Bad for their image, at least in my mind.
&gt; Ford makes a lot of them too, to be fair. When the big 3 bought their
&gt; rental car companies back years ago, I guess you could say there was an
&gt; image cost to that.
&gt;

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#120: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:20:59 by MikeHunt2

You better take a look in you local GM and Ford dealers used car lots. They
have quite a few Jap vehicles that have been traded on their vehicles.
The very first retail Milan was sold at a Toyota, Lincoln Mercury dealership
by a Toyota salesman and the trade was a 2003 Camry.

The owner was traveling and his tranny died on a local interstate. He was
towed to the local Toyota dealer who was duel with LM. When told the tranny
could not be repaired and a new tranny would take several days, to arrive at
the dealership and be replace. Because of the mileage it was not covered by
the warranty.

A sharp Toyota salesman suggest he might want to consider a new 2006 Camry.
They took a ride in a car he liked and the salesman gave him a price, taking
the wounded Camry in trade. While waiting for the Sales Manager to approve
the deal the buyer walked over to the LM side. No skipping a beat the
astute Toyota salesman took him for a ride in the Mercury he admired. He
continue his trip in a loaded 2006 V6 Milan, that cost him around $5,000
less than the Camry deal he was offered


mike hunt


&quot;Jeff&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kidsdoc2000&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">kidsdoc2000&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt;
&gt; &quot;Michael Johnson, PE&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cds&#64;erols.com" target="_blank">cds&#64;erols.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com..." target="_blank">ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; Joe wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Better to figure out the reasons for change, rather than just imagining
&gt;&gt;&gt; that everybody who changes does so by becoming more ignorant. That's
&gt;&gt;&gt; not very likely.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Actually it is the reverse. Most people that switched to foreign cars
&gt;&gt; got smart. The trouble for Detroit is that the Japanese know how to keep
&gt;&gt; a customer coming back and they don't. ;)
&gt;
&gt; Actually, American car makers know how to keep costumers coming back.
&gt; Otherwise, they wouldn't have costumers. No one who has owned a foreign
&gt; car will go back and buy American ;-)
&gt;
&gt; Seriously, a lot of people who own Chevies or Fords will replace the cars
&gt; with the same make.
&gt;
&gt; Jeff
&gt;

Report this message

#121: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 22:34:36 by MikeHunt2

The trick was to get one, and the woman would follow. When my one neighbor
ask were was my 2005 GT convertible was. I told him I sold it because I was
picking up a 2007 in a week or two. He asked my why an eighty year old guy
like me keeps buying Mustang GT convertibles. I told him don't tell my
wife, but I'm picking up your stuff. He said you are? Sure I had this
babe after me the other day and she could not have been a day over 55 ;)


mike hunt


&quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:SLrwg.13566$<a href="mailto:pu3.314224&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.314224&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt; Whitelightning wrote:
&gt;&gt; &quot;Mike Hunter&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com" target="_blank">mikehunt2&#64;mailcity.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:NoOdnQldU66fcSPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net..." target="_blank">NoOdnQldU66fcSPZUSdV9g&#64;ptd.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I can only assume you never owned one of those car if that is what you
&gt;&gt;&gt; believe LOL
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; mike hunt
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Obviously he never drove one. There is a hell of a difference between
&gt;&gt; 350
&gt;&gt; cid, and 426 cid.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Ahh those were the days,Chrysler's 426 hemi's, Ford's 429 cobra jet ala
&gt;&gt; 1970
&gt;&gt; Torino, and Chevy's '63 409 cid, and the later 427 cid engines, and last
&gt;&gt; but
&gt;&gt; not least, the '70 Buick StageI with the 455 cid, 510 ft pounds of
&gt;&gt; torque,
&gt;&gt; at 2,600 rpm.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Whitelightning
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Next to women, this is the next best thing

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#122: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:09:35 by Picasso

My Names Nobody wrote:
&gt; &quot;Picasso&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Picasso&#64;gmail.com" target="_blank">Picasso&#64;gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:v0zug.11376$<a href="mailto:pu3.260760&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca..." target="_blank">pu3.260760&#64;ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...</a>
&gt;&gt; Mark Jones wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; GM and Ford are finally advertising the fact they have more vehicles,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; than any of the imports, that get 30 MPG or more. Many mistakenly
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; believe they need to buy an import to get decent fuel mileage. GM,
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ford and Chrysler even offers car with V8 that can get 25 MPG or more.
&gt;&gt;&gt; My 1994 Corvette with the optional performance rear gears
&gt;&gt;&gt; gets 25 mpg, so getting 25 mpg from a car is really not that
&gt;&gt;&gt; much of a challenge for Ford and GM.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; When my 2004 F-150 4x4 is paid off next fall, I intend to
&gt;&gt;&gt; trade it in on a new Ford truck. Probably an F-250. My F-150
&gt;&gt;&gt; has been flawless. It is the best vehicle I have ever owned.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; F150's are damn solid trucks. I wish they still made the light duty f250.
&gt;&gt; But anyway, the F150's are still good vehicles.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; If i had the money, I would try a 250 or 350 diesel.
&gt;
&gt; Light duty F-250's??? What year was that? Every year I'm familiar with
&gt; share axels, brakes and springs with the F-350. I do know Chevy made
&gt; half-ton based light duty 3/4 ton trucks, I'm not aware of a Ford light duty
&gt; F-250.
&gt;
&gt;


Well, im talking about from 97 to 99 (for sure 99, maybe 2000). I had a
1997 F250, the styling was the same as the F150's of the year. There
wa also an f250 that year that was the styling of the F350s

What I had was what i'm calling the lighter duty f250... fuck, maybe
itwas the same truck, i dunno, i just know it was a hell of a lot
tougher truck than my 02 f150

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#123: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:10:28 by Picasso

Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; There is a light F250, under 2500, and the F250 HD. Check with your local
&gt; Ford dealer, for the specifics, WBMA
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt; &quot;My Names Nobody&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:KJDug.3193$<a href="mailto:Lw.1022&#64;trnddc07..." target="_blank">Lw.1022&#64;trnddc07...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; F150's are damn solid trucks. I wish they still made the light duty
&gt;&gt;&gt; f250. But anyway, the F150's are still good vehicles.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; If i had the money, I would try a 250 or 350 diesel.
&gt;&gt; Light duty F-250's??? What year was that? Every year I'm familiar with
&gt;&gt; share axels, brakes and springs with the F-350. I do know Chevy made
&gt;&gt; half-ton based light duty 3/4 ton trucks, I'm not aware of a Ford light
&gt;&gt; duty F-250.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;


oh there could be, back in 97 the f250LD was more a beefed up f150, than
a tuned down 350, like it appears to be now.

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#124: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:32:04 by cds

Why are the domestics are loosing market share to the foreign auto
makers (especially the Japanese) year after year? Detroit is bleeding
and they need to stop it or they will go extinct or become a foreign
auto makers bitch.

Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; You better take a look in you local GM and Ford dealers used car lots. They
&gt; have quite a few Jap vehicles that have been traded on their vehicles.
&gt; The very first retail Milan was sold at a Toyota, Lincoln Mercury dealership
&gt; by a Toyota salesman and the trade was a 2003 Camry.
&gt;
&gt; The owner was traveling and his tranny died on a local interstate. He was
&gt; towed to the local Toyota dealer who was duel with LM. When told the tranny
&gt; could not be repaired and a new tranny would take several days, to arrive at
&gt; the dealership and be replace. Because of the mileage it was not covered by
&gt; the warranty.
&gt;
&gt; A sharp Toyota salesman suggest he might want to consider a new 2006 Camry.
&gt; They took a ride in a car he liked and the salesman gave him a price, taking
&gt; the wounded Camry in trade. While waiting for the Sales Manager to approve
&gt; the deal the buyer walked over to the LM side. No skipping a beat the
&gt; astute Toyota salesman took him for a ride in the Mercury he admired. He
&gt; continue his trip in a loaded 2006 V6 Milan, that cost him around $5,000
&gt; less than the Camry deal he was offered
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike hunt
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Jeff&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:kidsdoc2000&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">kidsdoc2000&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:t5hwg.8072$<a href="mailto:vO.588&#64;newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">vO.588&#64;newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; &quot;Michael Johnson, PE&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cds&#64;erols.com" target="_blank">cds&#64;erols.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com..." target="_blank">ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Joe wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Better to figure out the reasons for change, rather than just imagining
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that everybody who changes does so by becoming more ignorant. That's
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not very likely.
&gt;&gt;&gt; Actually it is the reverse. Most people that switched to foreign cars
&gt;&gt;&gt; got smart. The trouble for Detroit is that the Japanese know how to keep
&gt;&gt;&gt; a customer coming back and they don't. ;)
&gt;&gt; Actually, American car makers know how to keep costumers coming back.
&gt;&gt; Otherwise, they wouldn't have costumers. No one who has owned a foreign
&gt;&gt; car will go back and buy American ;-)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Seriously, a lot of people who own Chevies or Fords will replace the cars
&gt;&gt; with the same make.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Jeff
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

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#125: Re: Is Ford Running on Empty?

Posted on 2006-07-23 23:37:05 by cds

The sales numbers are not trending in your direction. A car company
will not make every customer a repeat buyer but the foreign makers are
winning the loyalty battle with Detroit. Toyota will be number one in
sales in the USA if this trend continues.

Mike Hunter wrote:
&gt; Can't prove that by me, I came back to Ford Motor Company vehicles in 1999
&gt; after a half dozen Toyota and Lexus'. The Toyotas and the Lexus were great
&gt; cars but the Toyotas were underpowered and the Lexus were over priced.
&gt; Since I started buy Mustangs and Lincolns they too have been great cars.
&gt; Certainly not underpowered, or overpriced. I have been buying both for much
&gt; less than it was costing me to by Toyotas and Lexus'. In fact I saved so
&gt; much on my first Lincoln, a 2000 LS, that I bought my first Mustang since
&gt; 1964, a 1999 GT convertible at the same time. That FLM dealer treats me
&gt; much better than did the Toyota or Lexus dealer ever did, as well Since
&gt; then I have purchase four more Mustangs and three more Lincolns for him
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; mike
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Michael Johnson, PE&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:cds&#64;erols.com" target="_blank">cds&#64;erols.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com..." target="_blank">ap-dnWT93rVwB1zZnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d&#64;giganews.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; Joe wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;snip&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Better to figure out the reasons for change, rather than just imagining
&gt;&gt;&gt; that everybody who changes does so by becoming more ignorant. That's not
&gt;&gt;&gt; very likely.
&gt;&gt; Actually it is the reverse. Most people that switched to foreign cars got
&gt;&gt; smart. The trouble for Detroit is that the Japanese know how to keep a
&gt;&gt; customer coming back and they don't. ;)
&gt;
&gt;

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