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#1: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 01:50:05 by Nomen Nescio

During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road fuel
availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.

It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
achieve 600 range with reserve.

Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
throats with a Federal Law.

Report this message

#2: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 02:49:57 by u know who

ya but at what point do you stop paying to transport gas around.
1st rule of fuel economy drive light on the peddle and make sure the car is
light.
I can't recall how much 1 gallon of gas weighs in at. nor can I recall how
many lbs of weight removal = increase of available horsepower.
point being is driving around with nearly 2 times the amount of fuel = 2
times the amount of weight there for fuel economy would suffer. and would
ppl pay $60 to fill a dodge neon. nope better off driving with 1/2 tank just
like it is now.

&quot;Nomen Nescio&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt; fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;

Report this message

#3: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 03:15:28 by Jonathan

During the hurricanes that hit Florida last year, fuel supply was an issue
for several months - as it will be in Louisianna, Alabama and Mississippi.
However, mandating a 600-mile range on vehicles with more federal regulation
isn't the answer and didn't mean anything when you couldn't get gas in the
first place. It does nothing to put in larger fuel tanks if nobody can
afford to fill them, and the people who most needed to evacuate seldom had
cars to begin with.

Start with something that makes more sense, like mandating that gas stations
must have a way to retrieve the fuel from their in-ground tanks when the
electricity fails. That makes more sense than a larger gas tank in your
car.

There's going to be plenty more beaurocracy and enough federal rules and
reccomendations to choke a horse when all this is done - let's concentrate
on the important ones and not something that means little and is worth even
less. It scares me to think of what people are going to be screaming for
all in the name of public safety after this - perhaps federalizing all
agencies in state and local governments, conscription, siezing personal
property (boats, buses, aircraft, etc.)? Let's not make this harder and
more confusingly complex than we have to by overloading it with little
unimportant issues. My first prediction is that whatever spending bill to
fund disaster preparedness is passed after this is all over will contain
more unrelated pork than it will have money that actually gets to the people
who need it in order to minimize the potential tragedies of the next major
event - and you can take that prediction to the bank!

Jonathan

&quot;Nomen Nescio&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt; fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;

Report this message

#4: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 03:31:24 by SRG

Nomen---OH SHUT UP!!!

&quot;Nomen Nescio&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com..." target="_blank">cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com...</a>
&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt; fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;

Report this message

#5: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 06:20:13 by Sarge

Nomen Nescio wrote: &quot;During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel
supply and on-road fuel availability was of considerable importance and
worry to car travellers. It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of
sufficient capacity to achieve 600 range with reserve.

Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their throats
with a Federal Law.&quot;

The problem is not how far a car can travel without refueling. The problem
is many stations lost electrical power to run the pumps. I drove home to
the area from Hots Springs, Arkansas. I anticipated having fuel problems
once I arrived home. I started looking for a gas station in Vicksburg , MS
and was not able to find one that had power. Got to Natchez, MS and found
power on a one station and a line of cars 1/2 mile long trying to fuel up.
Got to the second car in line and the power went out. I then head West down
US 84 until I found a gas station with power. Only fuel they had left was
the premium.

Made it home to find all the electricity was off and no one was selling
fuel. The next day power was restored In a neighboring town and I waited
2.5 miles to fuel up. They owner of the station was handing out water to
customers in line. He told me that he was able to secure two truck loads of
fuel and that was it.

Many gas stations are not open even though they have power because they
can't get the fuel.

Nine refineries have been shut down in the affected areas. Gasoline
supplies will be limited until all of them get back on line.The following
facilities should be starting up Shell Chemical Mobile, Alabama, Motiva
Convent, LA, Marathon Oil Garyville, LA. The following facilities will be
starting up as soon as wind damage can be repaired Motiva/ Shell Chemical
Norco, LA, Valerio, Norco, LA. The following will need extensive repair due
to wind and flood damage: Conoco-Phillips in Belle Chase, LA, Chalmette
Refining LLC Chalmette, LA, Shell Chemical St Rose, LA and Murphy Oil U.S.A.
Inc. Meraux, LA.

Gasoline will be in short supply across the nation until the refineries
start back up and at full operation. At present, Louisiana lost the
refining capacity of 1,470703 barrels of crude a day. Normally Louisiana
could refine 2,772,723 barrels of crude a day. So over half the refining
capacity has been affected by the storm. See the facts at
<a href="http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/state/la.html" target="_blank">http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/state/la.html</a>

Offshore production will be cranking back up for several deepwater rigs. As
of 09-02-05 88 percent of the oil production in the Gulf of Mexico has been
shutdown. 20 platform or rigs are missing. One pipeline is damaged. See
the facts at
<a href="http://www.ocsbbs.com/Hurricane_katrina_evacuation_stats_Sept_2_2005.htm" target="_blank"> http://www.ocsbbs.com/Hurricane_katrina_evacuation_stats_Sep t_2_2005.htm</a>
The LOOP offshore oil facality has been shutdown due to damage to on shore
power grid needed for the LOOP to operate. Repairs are in progress.

The refineries that are operating will be operating on short supplies and
will not be running at full rates due to the lack of crude even with the
strategic reserve.

Sarge

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#6: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 09:30:33 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt; Gasoline will be in short supply across the nation until the refineries
&gt; start back up and at full operation.

I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon gasoline
prices
have remained flat for the last month or two. I strongly suspect that the
oil
companies don't like to pay a lot of money to ship gasoline all over the
place
and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than most people would
believe, and that the oil companies will admit. I also strongly suspect,
going on
what I know about how business is conducted in LA, that a lot of the oil
companies down there are giving wildly exaggerated estimates of how short
the
fuel supplies are going to be over the next weeks and months, simply in an
effort to keep fuel prices high to they can profiteer. Given that the oil
companies
own the current President, you won't see any tangible effort to stop the
price
gouging from the White House either, I am sorry to say.

Of course, I also know that saying all this is like rubbing salt in the
wound
to the people in that area that are reading this. But you should know that
the media is lying to you, gas prices in the rest of the country haven't
spiked
like a Super Bowl football on a touchdown. (at least, not here) I just
bought
gas at a 76 station on Friday at $2.66 a gallon and it was within 7 cents a
gallon
of that a month ago.

Consider also that summer is over and people are mostly pretty much finished
with their summer vacation driving, and gasoline sales during this period go
down anyway.

Ted

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#7: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 10:00:25 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Jonathan&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:QUrSe.5793$<a href="mailto:Wd7.2668&#64;newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">Wd7.2668&#64;newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt; During the hurricanes that hit Florida last year, fuel supply was an issue
&gt; for several months - as it will be in Louisianna, Alabama and Mississippi.
&gt; However, mandating a 600-mile range on vehicles with more federal
regulation
&gt; isn't the answer and didn't mean anything when you couldn't get gas in the
&gt; first place. It does nothing to put in larger fuel tanks if nobody can
&gt; afford to fill them, and the people who most needed to evacuate seldom had
&gt; cars to begin with.
&gt;
&gt; Start with something that makes more sense, like mandating that gas
stations
&gt; must have a way to retrieve the fuel from their in-ground tanks when the
&gt; electricity fails. That makes more sense than a larger gas tank in your
&gt; car.
&gt;

Not really. Most people pay with credit or debit cards and don't carry $40
around in cash just to buy gasoline (what it costs to fill my tank) and when
the
power goes, those forms of payment are useless.

In any case, this is a matter better handled by the states. I'm sure that
Montana
doesen't have to worry much about massive hurricanes coming through and
flooding it's major cities for weeks at a time.

&gt; less. It scares me to think of what people are going to be screaming for
&gt; all in the name of public safety after this - perhaps federalizing all
&gt; agencies in state and local governments, conscription, siezing personal
&gt; property (boats, buses, aircraft, etc.)?

Why? Nothing concrete was done after 911 other than invade two
foreign countries, well this time there's nothing to invade.

Ted

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#8: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 11:47:02 by 351CJ

Hum...
My 2005 6.0L Power Stroke Diesel carries 59 gallons of diesel (Just shy of
420 pounds of diesel fuel). (Diesel weighs about 7.1 pounds per US gallon)
(Gasoline weighs about 6.2 pounds per US gallon)
Truck Gets 14.5 miles per gallon.
That equals 855 miles per fill up.
You don't need any Federal Law, what you are asking for is already on the
market.

At $3.15 per gallon, today's price, that's $185.85 to fill up from empty. I
just spent $140 doing it yesterday. :-(



&quot;Nomen Nescio&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com..." target="_blank">cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com...</a>
&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt; fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;

Report this message

#9: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 14:40:48 by Andrew Rossmann

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a> says...
&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.

Why build bigger gas tanks? Why not mandate better fuel economy to get
the same effect?

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
<a href="http://home.att.net/~andyross" target="_blank">http://home.att.net/~andyross</a>

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#10: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 15:44:53 by Repairman

Yeah, and we need &quot;reproduction permits&quot; to cleanse the gene pool
also............

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#11: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 16:26:58 by aussie bongo

&quot;Repairman&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:repairman54&#64;earthlink.net" target="_blank">repairman54&#64;earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:pTCSe.6483$<a href="mailto:9i4.3173&#64;newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">9i4.3173&#64;newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt; Yeah, and we need &quot;reproduction permits&quot; to cleanse the gene pool
&gt; also............
&gt;
&gt;

how many you want ....... i have my printer working again :)

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#12: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 16:30:56 by Big Al

&quot;Andrew Rossmann&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:andysnewsreply&#64;no_junk.comcast.net" target="_blank">andysnewsreply&#64;no_junk.comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:MPG.1d84a74ed444bed498971e&#64;newsgroups.comcast.net..." target="_blank">MPG.1d84a74ed444bed498971e&#64;newsgroups.comcast.net...</a>
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; <a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a> says...
&gt;&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt;&gt; fuel
&gt;&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt;&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt;&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt;&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;
&gt; Why build bigger gas tanks? Why not mandate better fuel economy to get
&gt; the same effect?
&gt;

If cars had bigger fuel tanks they would collect more moisture. Most people
would still run around with 5 gallons or less in them:)

Al

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#13: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 16:35:09 by Petebert

I made it from Niagara Falls to Dayton Ohio without filling up in my 99
windstar with a car top carrier, I couldnt imagine needing to flee further
then that from anything.

&quot;Nomen Nescio&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com..." target="_blank">cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com...</a>
&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt; fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;

Report this message

#14: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 19:20:26 by Sarge

&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; wrote: &quot;I don't believe this is the case across the
nation. Here in Oregon gasoline prices have remained flat for the last
month or two. I strongly suspect that the oil companies don't like to pay a
lot of money to ship gasoline all over the place
and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than most people would
believe, and that the oil companies will admit. I also strongly suspect,
going on what I know about how business is conducted in LA, that a lot of
the oil companies down there are giving wildly exaggerated estimates of how
short the fuel supplies are going to be over the next weeks and months,
simply in an effort to keep fuel prices high to they can profiteer. Given
that the oil companies own the current President, you won't see any tangible
effort to stop the price gouging from the White House either, I am sorry to
say.
Of course, I also know that saying all this is like rubbing salt in the
wound to the people in that area that are reading this. But you should know
that the media is lying to you, gas prices in the rest of the country
haven't spiked like a Super Bowl football on a touchdown. (at least, not
here) I just bought gas at a 76 station on Friday at $2.66 a gallon and it
was within 7 cents a gallon
of that a month ago.
Consider also that summer is over and people are mostly pretty much finished
with their summer vacation driving, and gasoline sales during this period go
down anyway.&quot;

And you don't believe 9 less refineries producing gasoline will affect the
price? Most of the gasoline refined in Louisiana does not supply your area
in Oregon. The pipelines from this area supplies mostly the Northeast and
immediate area. Gasoline supplied to the West Coast is supplied by plants
in California 21 (refineries 2,017,401 barrels a day) and Washington (5
refineries 616,150 barrels a day). Louisiana refine 2,772,723 barrels a
day, which is greater then both California and Washington together. So tell
me how the supply of gasoline is not going to be reduced?

The last new refinery built was in 1976 in Garyville, LA. It is owned by
Marathon Oil. We need more refineries to reduce the cost of gasoline or we
need to reduce our need. Gasoline cannot be stored long term like crude
oil. Several of your major oil companies have announced a price freeze to
its jobbers on the cost of gasoline in the affected states of Louisiana,
Mississippi and Alabama.

Texas 27 refineries and 4,627,611 barrels per day cannot increase production
of gasoline they are all running at capacity.
Mississippi 4 refineries at 364,800 barrels per day cannot increase
production. Their biggest refinery in Pascagoula @ 325,000 BCD is shutdown
due to damage.

There are other states that refine oil. Texas, Louisiana and California are
the largest. The US gasoline consumption is about 9.0 million bbl/d. Lost
of production from 8 to 9 refineries has to hurt the supply.

Before the Hurricane I paid 2.49 for a gallon of gasoline regular.
Yesterday I filled up my truck and paid 2.54 a gallon. The biggest problem
is finding stations that have fuel since the entire area of Jefferson
Parish, Orleans Parish, and St Tammany Parish have no electricity. The
people that live in theses areas are now trying to get home to see what's
left or living with friends or relatives in the metro area. My household
has increased by 2 and my sisters by 4 and my parents by 6 since our
relatives have no place to go home or no electricity where they live at. My
mother's home looks like a used car lot with 8 extra cars in her driveway.

Sarge

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#15: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-04 22:53:26 by Don Phillipson

&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:newscache$xi7ami$x8e$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Gasoline will be in short supply across the nation until the refineries
&gt; &gt; start back up and at full operation.
&gt;
&gt; I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon
gasoline
&gt; prices have remained flat for the last month or two. I strongly suspect
that the
&gt; oil companies don't like to pay a lot of money to ship gasoline all over
the
&gt; place and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than most
people would
&gt; believe, and that the oil companies will admit.

It is extra interesting to see Oregon gas prices are stable.
In eastern Canada as soon as Katrina shut down the
Gulf wells retail gas prices went up by 25 per cent (and
Canada produces 100 per cent of what Canada produces
-- although for cheapness western Canadian oil is exported
to the USA and we import US oil in eastern Canada.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

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#16: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 02:12:25 by r

If you talk to anyone that has pulled tanks out of newer cars to change a
fuel pump, you will see they usually fit pretty tight. I think the
automakers are more worried about space in the car than the tank. Of course
this doesn't apply to trucks that have lots of room and huge tanks. I would
hate to pay the bill on a 1 ton with dual tanks.
&quot;Nomen Nescio&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com..." target="_blank">cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com...</a>
&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt; fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;

Report this message

#17: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 04:55:58 by Vuarra

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:00:25 -0700, &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot;
&lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote:


&gt;&gt; less. It scares me to think of what people are going to be screaming for
&gt;&gt; all in the name of public safety after this - perhaps federalizing all
&gt;&gt; agencies in state and local governments, conscription, siezing personal
&gt;&gt; property (boats, buses, aircraft, etc.)?
&gt;
&gt;Why? Nothing concrete was done after 911 other than invade two
&gt;foreign countries, well this time there's nothing to invade.

Like that would stop the American Empire?


Vuarra

Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound.)

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#18: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 05:42:39 by 351CJ

&quot;Don Phillipson&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com" target="_blank">d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:agJSe.724$<a href="mailto:5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca..." target="_blank">5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca...</a>
&gt; &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:newscache$xi7ami$x8e$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gasoline will be in short supply across the nation until the refineries
&gt;&gt; &gt; start back up and at full operation.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon
&gt; gasoline
&gt;&gt; prices have remained flat for the last month or two. I strongly suspect
&gt; that the
&gt;&gt; oil companies don't like to pay a lot of money to ship gasoline all over
&gt; the
&gt;&gt; place and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than most
&gt; people would
&gt;&gt; believe, and that the oil companies will admit.
&gt;
&gt; It is extra interesting to see Oregon gas prices are stable.
&gt; In eastern Canada as soon as Katrina shut down the
&gt; Gulf wells retail gas prices went up by 25 per cent (and
&gt; Canada produces 100 per cent of what Canada produces
&gt; -- although for cheapness western Canadian oil is exported
&gt; to the USA and we import US oil in eastern Canada.
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; Don Phillipson
&gt; Carlsbad Springs
&gt; (Ottawa, Canada)
&gt;

Well...
Oregon Fuel prices are NOT &quot;Stable&quot; !!!

Just before Katrina, #2 Diesel was around $2.80 per gallon, it is now (as of
Saturday) at $3.15 per gallon.
Gasoline has hovered right under these prices, rising right along with
them...

Report this message

#19: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 06:36:20 by Michael

Screw you. Damn Democrat. A once in fifty years event is no reason to extend
the increasingly uncontrollable reach of the government. The phony &quot;war&quot; on
big business is a completely Liberal tactic. Get yourself &quot;Edjikated&quot;.

conserative spike

&quot;Nomen Nescio&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com..." target="_blank">cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com...</a>
&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt; fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;

Report this message

#20: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 10:21:08 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:P8PSe.13060$<a href="mailto:B34.2136&#64;trnddc09..." target="_blank">B34.2136&#64;trnddc09...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Don Phillipson&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com" target="_blank">d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:agJSe.724$<a href="mailto:5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca..." target="_blank">5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca...</a>
&gt; &gt; &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:newscache$xi7ami$x8e$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Gasoline will be in short supply across the nation until the
refineries
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; start back up and at full operation.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon
&gt; &gt; gasoline
&gt; &gt;&gt; prices have remained flat for the last month or two. I strongly
suspect
&gt; &gt; that the
&gt; &gt;&gt; oil companies don't like to pay a lot of money to ship gasoline all
over
&gt; &gt; the
&gt; &gt;&gt; place and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than most
&gt; &gt; people would
&gt; &gt;&gt; believe, and that the oil companies will admit.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; It is extra interesting to see Oregon gas prices are stable.
&gt; &gt; In eastern Canada as soon as Katrina shut down the
&gt; &gt; Gulf wells retail gas prices went up by 25 per cent (and
&gt; &gt; Canada produces 100 per cent of what Canada produces
&gt; &gt; -- although for cheapness western Canadian oil is exported
&gt; &gt; to the USA and we import US oil in eastern Canada.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; --
&gt; &gt; Don Phillipson
&gt; &gt; Carlsbad Springs
&gt; &gt; (Ottawa, Canada)
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; Well...
&gt; Oregon Fuel prices are NOT &quot;Stable&quot; !!!
&gt;
&gt; Just before Katrina, #2 Diesel was around $2.80 per gallon, it is now (as
of
&gt; Saturday) at $3.15 per gallon.
&gt; Gasoline has hovered right under these prices, rising right along with
&gt; them...
&gt;

Heh - no I disagree - I have seen Diesel prices in Oregon rising long before
this
and gasoline prices are NOT coupled to them, and least not where I'm buying
gas. Diesel is indeed quite higher than gas, and I'm sure that if any of
those diesel
owners are left who bought Diesel cars years ago thinking they would save
money
on fuel they are probably screaming now.

I typically buy gasoline in Washington County. I live in PDX and the prices
with
the city boundary appear to be at least 10-20 cents a gallon higher than
right outside
of it, such as in unincorporated Washington County (along US 26) and in
East Multnomah county outside of Gresham.

Prices in the rest of the state are higher. Prices along I-5 through most
of the
state are gouging - it is asinine, there's gas stations along I-5 such as in
Albany
where they are 20 cents a gallon higher than if you drive a mile away from
the
interstate and buy gas at a station there. Prices along the coast are
rediculous but
they always have been rediculous.

Part of the problem in many parts of the state is after the Shell/Texaco
merger
that removed competition in many of the smaller towns. I still don't
understand
why the lame-ass Oregon Attorney General hasn't done something about it
because
there's lots of places in PDX where you have 2 Shell stations literally
across the
street from each other.

Where are you buying fuel?

Ted

Report this message

#21: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 10:40:01 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:dffacq02kc&#64;enews4.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dffacq02kc&#64;enews4.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; wrote: &quot;I don't believe this is the case across the
&gt; nation. Here in Oregon gasoline prices have remained flat for the last
&gt; month or two. I strongly suspect that the oil companies don't like to pay
a
&gt; lot of money to ship gasoline all over the place
&gt; and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than most people
would
&gt; believe, and that the oil companies will admit. I also strongly suspect,
&gt; going on what I know about how business is conducted in LA, that a lot of
&gt; the oil companies down there are giving wildly exaggerated estimates of
how
&gt; short the fuel supplies are going to be over the next weeks and months,
&gt; simply in an effort to keep fuel prices high to they can profiteer. Given
&gt; that the oil companies own the current President, you won't see any
tangible
&gt; effort to stop the price gouging from the White House either, I am sorry
to
&gt; say.
&gt; Of course, I also know that saying all this is like rubbing salt in the
&gt; wound to the people in that area that are reading this. But you should
know
&gt; that the media is lying to you, gas prices in the rest of the country
&gt; haven't spiked like a Super Bowl football on a touchdown. (at least, not
&gt; here) I just bought gas at a 76 station on Friday at $2.66 a gallon and
it
&gt; was within 7 cents a gallon
&gt; of that a month ago.
&gt; Consider also that summer is over and people are mostly pretty much
finished
&gt; with their summer vacation driving, and gasoline sales during this period
go
&gt; down anyway.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; And you don't believe 9 less refineries producing gasoline will affect the
&gt; price?

Not across the nation like you said initially.

&gt; Most of the gasoline refined in Louisiana does not supply your area
&gt; in Oregon. The pipelines from this area supplies mostly the Northeast
and
&gt; immediate area. Gasoline supplied to the West Coast is supplied by plants
&gt; in California 21 (refineries 2,017,401 barrels a day) and Washington (5
&gt; refineries 616,150 barrels a day). Louisiana refine 2,772,723 barrels a
&gt; day, which is greater then both California and Washington together. So
tell
&gt; me how the supply of gasoline is not going to be reduced?
&gt;

Obviously LA and MS and the states served by those refineries are going to
be RFed (Royally F..ked) I never said they wern't. In fact if you reread
my
post you will see that I said the oil companies are overemphasizing the
shortage
in the press precisely so they can gouge the public and people will accept
it
and say &quot;Oh it's just the storm&quot;

You are missing the fact that many tens of thousands of cars got flooded out
and will be unusable, thus their owners won't be buying fuel. In fact the
city
of New Orleans won't see normal street traffic for at least 6 months, it
will
take them that long to get the dikes patched and the city pumped out -
assuming
anyone still wants to live there after the looters have finished stealing
everything
of value and burning the city to the ground. And a lot of other Gulf Coast
states are going to see a lot of economic problems and people who are
thrown off work onto unemployment because of it are going to be riding
the bus not paying high gas prices.

Nobody knows what the DEMAND of gas will do. If it is SIGNIFICANTLY
lower then it won't matter that a lot of refinery capacity got knocked
offline.
And I think it will be. I think the oil companies have very much
underestimated
how much people will be willing to carpool, use mass transit, and such in
order to avoid getting gouged, for the short term anyhow. The United States
population does an enormous amount of unnecessary pleasure driving every
day,
there is a LOT of cushion there which can absorb a fuel shortage.

&gt; The last new refinery built was in 1976 in Garyville, LA. It is owned by
&gt; Marathon Oil. We need more refineries to reduce the cost of gasoline or
we
&gt; need to reduce our need. Gasoline cannot be stored long term like crude
&gt; oil. Several of your major oil companies have announced a price freeze to
&gt; its jobbers on the cost of gasoline in the affected states of Louisiana,
&gt; Mississippi and Alabama.
&gt;
&gt; Texas 27 refineries and 4,627,611 barrels per day cannot increase
production
&gt; of gasoline they are all running at capacity.
&gt; Mississippi 4 refineries at 364,800 barrels per day cannot increase
&gt; production. Their biggest refinery in Pascagoula @ 325,000 BCD is
shutdown
&gt; due to damage.
&gt;
&gt; There are other states that refine oil. Texas, Louisiana and California
are
&gt; the largest. The US gasoline consumption is about 9.0 million bbl/d.
Lost
&gt; of production from 8 to 9 refineries has to hurt the supply.
&gt;
&gt; Before the Hurricane I paid 2.49 for a gallon of gasoline regular.
&gt; Yesterday I filled up my truck and paid 2.54 a gallon. The biggest
problem
&gt; is finding stations that have fuel since the entire area of Jefferson
&gt; Parish, Orleans Parish, and St Tammany Parish have no electricity. The
&gt; people that live in theses areas are now trying to get home to see what's
&gt; left or living with friends or relatives in the metro area. My household
&gt; has increased by 2 and my sisters by 4 and my parents by 6 since our
&gt; relatives have no place to go home or no electricity where they live at.
My
&gt; mother's home looks like a used car lot with 8 extra cars in her driveway.
&gt;

With all those extra people your families have lots of opportunity to pool
driving, so
as a whole all your fuel usage is going to go down quite a bit. And this
will
be repeated thousandfold across those states. It will work out, you will
see.
In fact, this is EXACTLY how the free market is supposed to work as our
friend Mr. Putney will be happy to tell you. The shortages will produce a
price spike which will curtail the demand to the point that demand once
again
is no more than the supply. Then as that demand curtailment gets to be a
habit,
gets &quot;institutionalized&quot; as it were, and more supply comes on line, there
will
be an oversupply and the price will crash - until that is, everyone with
flooded
out cars gets their insurance money and runs out and buys new ones which
they then want to drive all over the place. ;-)

Ted

Report this message

#22: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 12:54:15 by Happy Traveler

There is only one reason for me to wish for a larger fuel tank: be able to
cross the otherwise great state of Oregon without buying gas. Are you guys
going to change that ridiculous 'no self serve' law in any foreseeable
future? Is there anything genetically wrong with Oregon residents making
them unable to stick a nozzle in their gas tank when they grow up past high
school age? For goodness sake, find something productive to do for those
5000 kids 'employed' in your gas stations!

&gt; I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon
gasoline
&gt; prices have remained flat for the last month or two.

Report this message

#23: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 14:45:26 by Frank Ross

Its all fuckin% bullshi%. gas is $2.99 in one town and $3.35 in another, not
20 miles apart. You, me and everyone else is being lied to. the only think
katrina had to do with the price of a gallon of fuel is that it was an
excuse that sounded plausable.
this is from a yankee in new hampshire.
by the way screw the 600 mile theory it sounds dumb. it just makes your car
a bigger bomb, duhhhhh.

Report this message

#24: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 15:02:02 by Sleeker GT Phwoar

In article &lt;wCDSe.165054$<a href="mailto:kM5.129306&#64;fe01.news.easynews.com" target="_blank">kM5.129306&#64;fe01.news.easynews.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:castle&#64;nthrax.org" target="_blank">castle&#64;nthrax.org</a> says...
&gt; I made it from Niagara Falls to Dayton Ohio without filling up in my 99
&gt; windstar with a car top carrier, I couldnt imagine needing to flee further
&gt; then that from anything.
&gt;
And if you do, it is far too late for running to be an option.
--
Carl Robson
Car PC Build starts again. <a href="http://smallr.com/rz" target="_blank">http://smallr.com/rz</a>
Homepage: <a href="http://www.bouncing-czechs.com" target="_blank">http://www.bouncing-czechs.com</a>

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#25: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 15:28:05 by Andrew Rossmann

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:SP2dnZ2dnZ2daU3HnZ2dnUqggd6dnZ2dRVn-y52dnZ0&#64;comcast.com" target="_blank">SP2dnZ2dnZ2daU3HnZ2dnUqggd6dnZ2dRVn-y52dnZ0&#64;comcast.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:frankdross&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">frankdross&#64;comcast.net</a> says...
&gt; Its all fuckin% bullshi%. gas is $2.99 in one town and $3.35 in another, not
&gt; 20 miles apart. You, me and everyone else is being lied to. the only think
&gt; katrina had to do with the price of a gallon of fuel is that it was an
&gt; excuse that sounded plausable.
&gt; this is from a yankee in new hampshire.
&gt; by the way screw the 600 mile theory it sounds dumb. it just makes your car
&gt; a bigger bomb, duhhhhh.

Be aware that many gas stations are independent or regional chains
that don't own refineries or oil supplies rely on the spot market.
Prices and supplies there are all over the place and constant flux.

The big-name, company-owned, stations have a more consistent supply,
and prices are often set according to corporate rules. They will rise
and fall at a slower rate.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
<a href="http://home.att.net/~andyross" target="_blank">http://home.att.net/~andyross</a>

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#26: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 15:29:55 by Andrew Rossmann

In article &lt;wCDSe.165054$<a href="mailto:kM5.129306&#64;fe01.news.easynews.com" target="_blank">kM5.129306&#64;fe01.news.easynews.com</a>&gt;,
<a href="mailto:castle&#64;nthrax.org" target="_blank">castle&#64;nthrax.org</a> says...
&gt; I made it from Niagara Falls to Dayton Ohio without filling up in my 99
&gt; windstar with a car top carrier, I couldnt imagine needing to flee further
&gt; then that from anything.

But you weren't on an overloaded road with tens of thousands of cars.
If you look at the evacuation, it was mostly stop-and-go for MILES.

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
<a href="http://home.att.net/~andyross" target="_blank">http://home.att.net/~andyross</a>

Report this message

#27: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 16:12:16 by Bill Putney

Happy Traveler wrote:

&gt; There is only one reason for me to wish for a larger fuel tank: be able to
&gt; cross the otherwise great state of Oregon without buying gas. Are you guys
&gt; going to change that ridiculous 'no self serve' law in any foreseeable
&gt; future? Is there anything genetically wrong with Oregon residents making
&gt; them unable to stick a nozzle in their gas tank when they grow up past high
&gt; school age? For goodness sake, find something productive to do for those
&gt; 5000 kids 'employed' in your gas stations!

Isn't this or wasn't this the case also in NJ? Liberal union crap.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#28: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 16:43:21 by mic canic

half of america can not afford to buy cars now they have to lease them
get real with what you say the price will go out of sight
what we need to do is is figure out hydrogen storage for cars and we can tell
the oil companys to fuck off

Nomen Nescio wrote:

&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.

Report this message

#29: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 16:55:45 by Bill Putney

tim bur wrote:

&gt; half of america can not afford to buy cars now they have to lease them
&gt; get real with what you say the price will go out of sight
&gt; what we need to do is is figure out hydrogen storage for cars and we can tell
&gt; the oil companys to fuck off

Where do we get the hydrogen that takes more energy to produce
(separate) than the energy you get out? The reason our fossil fuels are
a net energy gain for us is that they've stored free energy from the sun
over centuries of exposure. If we have to pump the energy in that we
are going to get out (as in producing biofuels from raw plants, or in
separating out hydrogen) to run a vehicle, then you have a false economy
that will fail very quickly. Nuclear is one way to get a net energy
gain of pre-stored energy.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#30: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 17:19:25 by Howard Nelson

&gt; I typically buy gasoline in Washington County. I live in PDX and the
prices
&gt; with
&gt; the city boundary appear to be at least 10-20 cents a gallon higher than
&gt; right outside
&gt; of it, such as in unincorporated Washington County (along US 26) and in
&gt; East Multnomah county outside of Gresham.

I don't know the PDX situation but here in california cities and counties
may have their own additonal taxes on gasoline or may require special
formulation all of which may result in markedly different prices as you move
to and from their jurisdiction.

Howard

Report this message

#31: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 17:28:02 by me

Thank you TED !!

I don't like to see the little guy get screwed anymore than anyone else
here.... however.. if there is EVER to be any &quot;work&quot; on alternative energy,
dino power has to get up there where the alternative people have a chance to
make a buck...( for the record Exxon stockholders voted against sinking
money into alternative energy) ... Sorry kiddies but when there's &quot;no
change&quot; (in something new) there isn't going to be any change or motivation
to change.
..

Report this message

#32: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 18:37:00 by Frank Ross

both stations are irvings
&quot;Andrew Rossmann&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:andysnewsreply&#64;no_junk.comcast.net" target="_blank">andysnewsreply&#64;no_junk.comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:MPG.1d8603e1ca50ddd7989720&#64;newsgroups.comcast.net..." target="_blank">MPG.1d8603e1ca50ddd7989720&#64;newsgroups.comcast.net...</a>
&gt; In article &lt;<a href="mailto:SP2dnZ2dnZ2daU3HnZ2dnUqggd6dnZ2dRVn-y52dnZ0&#64;comcast.com" target="_blank">SP2dnZ2dnZ2daU3HnZ2dnUqggd6dnZ2dRVn-y52dnZ0&#64;comcast.com</a>&gt;,
&gt; <a href="mailto:frankdross&#64;comcast.net" target="_blank">frankdross&#64;comcast.net</a> says...
&gt;&gt; Its all fuckin% bullshi%. gas is $2.99 in one town and $3.35 in another,
&gt;&gt; not
&gt;&gt; 20 miles apart. You, me and everyone else is being lied to. the only
&gt;&gt; think
&gt;&gt; katrina had to do with the price of a gallon of fuel is that it was an
&gt;&gt; excuse that sounded plausable.
&gt;&gt; this is from a yankee in new hampshire.
&gt;&gt; by the way screw the 600 mile theory it sounds dumb. it just makes your
&gt;&gt; car
&gt;&gt; a bigger bomb, duhhhhh.
&gt;
&gt; Be aware that many gas stations are independent or regional chains
&gt; that don't own refineries or oil supplies rely on the spot market.
&gt; Prices and supplies there are all over the place and constant flux.
&gt;
&gt; The big-name, company-owned, stations have a more consistent supply,
&gt; and prices are often set according to corporate rules. They will rise
&gt; and fall at a slower rate.
&gt;
&gt; --
&gt; If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
&gt; All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
&gt; law!!
&gt; <a href="http://home.att.net/~andyross" target="_blank">http://home.att.net/~andyross</a>

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#33: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 21:50:32 by Jonathan

Puleez...

Hydrogen storage isn't the prime issue - hydrogen production is the issue.
It takes more energy to produce hydrogen from water than you get back when
you recombine it with oxygen just from the natrual losses involved in the
process from beginning to end. If you factor in the added material and
production costs, saftey and handling expenses (especially since hydrogen
has to be stored at incredible pressures and liquid hydrogen is a cryogen -
compared to fossil fuels that can be stored in a liquid bulk form at ambient
temperatures) then the expense of hydrogen begins to exceed it's benefit.
You need lots of electricity to seperate hydrogen from oxygen in water, and
the only efficient way to produce that kind of juice is nuclear, but now you
get into the &quot;not in my backyard&quot; argument and the whole mess of where to
store the spent nuclear fuel. Plus to make the huge amounts of hydrogen
required to power our millions of cars you will need fresh water, and since
all the natural fresh water is already spoken for you will have to build
desalinization plants and/or distillation plants - which also take a lot of
energy.

However, I do agree with the final part of your post - wholeheartedly!

Cheers - Jonathan

&quot;tim bur&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:dbrider&#64;cac.net" target="_blank">dbrider&#64;cac.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:431C5989.DA3BDA58&#64;cac.net..." target="_blank">431C5989.DA3BDA58&#64;cac.net...</a>
&gt; half of america can not afford to buy cars now they have to lease them
&gt; get real with what you say the price will go out of sight
&gt; what we need to do is is figure out hydrogen storage for cars and we can
&gt; tell
&gt; the oil companys to fuck off
&gt;
&gt; Nomen Nescio wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt;&gt; fuel
&gt;&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt;&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt;&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt;&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;

Report this message

#34: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 22:29:12 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Happy Traveler&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:happy_traveler&#64;abc.net" target="_blank">happy_traveler&#64;abc.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt; There is only one reason for me to wish for a larger fuel tank: be able to
&gt; cross the otherwise great state of Oregon without buying gas. Are you guys
&gt; going to change that ridiculous 'no self serve' law in any foreseeable
&gt; future? Is there anything genetically wrong with Oregon residents making
&gt; them unable to stick a nozzle in their gas tank when they grow up past
high
&gt; school age? For goodness sake, find something productive to do for those
&gt; 5000 kids 'employed' in your gas stations!
&gt;

It's cheaper for us to use the gas stations as convenient job generators for
the bottom feeders than for us to run big social programs that create
make-work
jobs for them. The kids do pump some gas, true, but many people who might
otherwise be stuck permanently on welfare have used gas pumping jobs as
stepping stones to better jobs.

Considering that Oregon has practically no big corporate headquarters in it
left, after all the mergers gutted the economy here, there's not a hell of a
lot
to the economy other than extracting money from all the multinationals that
are operating here. PDX and Eugene have a few corporate headquarters
left, but profits for just about every industry, including forest products,
largely go
out of state. The most profitable economic sectors involve separating
transplanted Californians from the money they bring into the state, I'm
afraid, and growing Marijuana (which I believe we still lead the nation in)
The dope-growing profits all feed into the local economy since those
operations are all ma-and-pa ones that are headquartered here, and we don't
have the feds extracting their chunks. But just about every other industry
you can name, is headquartered elseware, and corporations in those
industries all carefully protect the high-paying jobs by keeping them close
to their corporate offices (which aren't here)

Of course you won't find this mentioned anywhere in the economic
reports! ;-) It took the oil companies a long time to figure out that the
people of Oregon understood this, but once they finally did they stopped
funding the self-serve initative ballot measures which kept getting
defeated.

The other thing is that the majority of voters in OR live in Portland
Metro and there's enough traffic to Vancouver WA for people here to
be familiar with fuel prices in WA (which has self-serve) We haven't
observed
any difference in fuel prices in WA than over on this side of the river so
the arguments that self-serve will save us money aren't believable.

Ted

Report this message

#35: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 22:38:19 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;me!&quot; &lt;me @ nowhere.com&gt; wrote in message
news:6uZSe.155$<a href="mailto:nt1.88&#64;newssvr33.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">nt1.88&#64;newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt; Thank you TED !!
&gt;
&gt; I don't like to see the little guy get screwed anymore than anyone else
&gt; here.... however.. if there is EVER to be any &quot;work&quot; on alternative
energy,
&gt; dino power has to get up there where the alternative people have a chance
to
&gt; make a buck...( for the record Exxon stockholders voted against sinking
&gt; money into alternative energy) ... Sorry kiddies but when there's &quot;no
&gt; change&quot; (in something new) there isn't going to be any change or
motivation
&gt; to change.
&gt; .

That is true, but consider also that once the initial, expensive R&amp;D has
been
paid for and these alternative energy industries are up and running without
the need for government incentives/support/etc, if we don't see an overall,
permanent decrease in the cost of energy, then really these alternative
energy
sources wern't worth developing.

The goal of a &quot;solar powered car&quot; and any other kind of alternative energy
program powered car should be to be able to reduce the cost of powering
the car. It shouldn't be to just replace one system with another just
because
someone is enraptured with a different system. Otherwise we really ought
to stop bothering with screwing around with vehicle fuel and just
concentrate
on building plants that convert coal into gasoline, or convert biomass into
gasoline, or some such.

Consider that oil AKA hydrocarbons, originally came from solar-powered
plant material and solar-powered plankton growth, it should be possible
to use genetic engineering to make an organism that you input sunlight and
get oil out of.

Ted

Report this message

#36: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-05 23:00:48 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dfhm9i$381$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; tim bur wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; half of america can not afford to buy cars now they have to lease them
&gt; &gt; get real with what you say the price will go out of sight
&gt; &gt; what we need to do is is figure out hydrogen storage for cars and we can
tell
&gt; &gt; the oil companys to fuck off
&gt;
&gt; Where do we get the hydrogen that takes more energy to produce
&gt; (separate) than the energy you get out? The reason our fossil fuels are
&gt; a net energy gain for us is that they've stored free energy from the sun
&gt; over centuries of exposure. If we have to pump the energy in that we
&gt; are going to get out (as in producing biofuels from raw plants, or in
&gt; separating out hydrogen) to run a vehicle, then you have a false economy
&gt; that will fail very quickly. Nuclear is one way to get a net energy
&gt; gain of pre-stored energy.
&gt;

Bill, your making a whole bunch of assumptions there which I think
are wrong.

Vehicle fuel has a bunch of restrictions on it that are special. It has to
be easily transported (ie: mobile) it has to explode under controlled
conditions, and it has to be safe enough so that if the vehicle rolls over
it won't explode and destroy 3 city blocks, it has to have high energy
density, and it has to be available on demand.

Solid fuels like wood, coal, rocket fuel boosters, etc. do not meet this
criteria.

Fuels like sunlight also do not meet this criteria

Fuels like nuclear do not meet this criteria.

Gaseous fuels like natural gas, propane, fart-in-a-jar (methane)
hydrogen also do not meet this criteria for obvious safety problems.

As a result your assumption that vehicle fuel must realize a net
energy gain is wrong. Vehicle fuels like gas and alcohol still work
even if they don't realize a net energy gain simply because there's
no alternative. Obviously this raises the cost of running a vehicle
but it will not fail quickly because there simply is no alternative.
The only question is how much it will raise it and if the vehicle owners
are all willing to pay that.

Also another assumption your making is in the net energy gain -
net gain from what? Net gain from just using raw sunlight?

If that's it, then you are missing that wind also equals a net gain,
and additionally, an economy could survive where the net
energy gain of the fuel over raw sunlight was 0, ie: not negative, but
equal.

Last year GE's US wind installations generated 873 megawatts of power,
see:

<a href="http://www.gepower.com/about/press/en/2004_press/032904e.htm" target="_blank"> http://www.gepower.com/about/press/en/2004_press/032904e.htm</a>

In Oregon, the now-shut-down Trojan Nuclear Plant was a 100
Megawatt plant.

GE's turbines come in 1.5 2.x and 3.6 megawatt versions, see:

<a href="http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/wind_turbines/en/index.htm" target="_blank"> http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/wind_turbines/en/i ndex.htm</a>

RE Power has a 5 megawatt version they are selling see:

<a href="http://www.repower5m.com/" target="_blank">http://www.repower5m.com/</a>

20 of those in a wind farm and you have your nuclear plant.

Ted

Report this message

#37: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 01:07:40 by 351CJ

&quot;Happy Traveler&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:happy_traveler&#64;abc.net" target="_blank">happy_traveler&#64;abc.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt; There is only one reason for me to wish for a larger fuel tank: be able to
&gt; cross the otherwise great state of Oregon without buying gas. Are you guys
&gt; going to change that ridiculous 'no self serve' law in any foreseeable
&gt; future? Is there anything genetically wrong with Oregon residents making
&gt; them unable to stick a nozzle in their gas tank when they grow up past
&gt; high
&gt; school age? For goodness sake, find something productive to do for those
&gt; 5000 kids 'employed' in your gas stations!
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon
&gt; gasoline
&gt;&gt; prices have remained flat for the last month or two.
&gt;
&gt;

It has been on the ballet 3 separate times the last time within the last
year or so, there are just to many lazy people who prefer sitting their car
not getting fuel on their hands to get enough votes to resend it!

I still can't get a straight answer about why the hell they ever enacted
such an asinine law... Everything from to put otherwise unemployable people
to work to some misconceived idea that it may be safer...

BTW the law evidently does not apply to diesel. (weather or not a particular
station knows it). I pump my own Diesel at a number of places.

Report this message

#38: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 01:07:55 by 351CJ

&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt;
&gt; &quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:P8PSe.13060$<a href="mailto:B34.2136&#64;trnddc09..." target="_blank">B34.2136&#64;trnddc09...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Don Phillipson&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com" target="_blank">d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:agJSe.724$<a href="mailto:5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca..." target="_blank">5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt; news:newscache$xi7ami$x8e$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Gasoline will be in short supply across the nation until the
&gt; refineries
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; start back up and at full operation.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon
&gt;&gt; &gt; gasoline
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; prices have remained flat for the last month or two. I strongly
&gt; suspect
&gt;&gt; &gt; that the
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; oil companies don't like to pay a lot of money to ship gasoline all
&gt; over
&gt;&gt; &gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; place and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than most
&gt;&gt; &gt; people would
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; believe, and that the oil companies will admit.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; It is extra interesting to see Oregon gas prices are stable.
&gt;&gt; &gt; In eastern Canada as soon as Katrina shut down the
&gt;&gt; &gt; Gulf wells retail gas prices went up by 25 per cent (and
&gt;&gt; &gt; Canada produces 100 per cent of what Canada produces
&gt;&gt; &gt; -- although for cheapness western Canadian oil is exported
&gt;&gt; &gt; to the USA and we import US oil in eastern Canada.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; --
&gt;&gt; &gt; Don Phillipson
&gt;&gt; &gt; Carlsbad Springs
&gt;&gt; &gt; (Ottawa, Canada)
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Well...
&gt;&gt; Oregon Fuel prices are NOT &quot;Stable&quot; !!!
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Just before Katrina, #2 Diesel was around $2.80 per gallon, it is now (as
&gt; of
&gt;&gt; Saturday) at $3.15 per gallon.
&gt;&gt; Gasoline has hovered right under these prices, rising right along with
&gt;&gt; them...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Heh - no I disagree - I have seen Diesel prices in Oregon rising long
&gt; before
&gt; this
&gt; and gasoline prices are NOT coupled to them, and least not where I'm
&gt; buying
&gt; gas. Diesel is indeed quite higher than gas, and I'm sure that if any of
&gt; those diesel
&gt; owners are left who bought Diesel cars years ago thinking they would save
&gt; money
&gt; on fuel they are probably screaming now.
&gt;
&gt; I typically buy gasoline in Washington County. I live in PDX and the
&gt; prices
&gt; with
&gt; the city boundary appear to be at least 10-20 cents a gallon higher than
&gt; right outside
&gt; of it, such as in unincorporated Washington County (along US 26) and in
&gt; East Multnomah county outside of Gresham.
&gt;
&gt; Prices in the rest of the state are higher. Prices along I-5 through most
&gt; of the
&gt; state are gouging - it is asinine, there's gas stations along I-5 such as
&gt; in
&gt; Albany
&gt; where they are 20 cents a gallon higher than if you drive a mile away from
&gt; the
&gt; interstate and buy gas at a station there. Prices along the coast are
&gt; rediculous but
&gt; they always have been rediculous.
&gt;
&gt; Part of the problem in many parts of the state is after the Shell/Texaco
&gt; merger
&gt; that removed competition in many of the smaller towns. I still don't
&gt; understand
&gt; why the lame-ass Oregon Attorney General hasn't done something about it
&gt; because
&gt; there's lots of places in PDX where you have 2 Shell stations literally
&gt; across the
&gt; street from each other.
&gt;
&gt; Where are you buying fuel?
&gt;
&gt; Ted
&gt;

Diesel &amp; Gas prices in Oregon have been on the rise for quite a while, But
they took a 30-50 cent jump since Katrina hit land. All my other cars run
on gasoline, and the prices for regular gas though (most times) cheaper,
have for the most part risen right along with the diesel.
Today in McMinnville, the regular Gas was $2.79 Diesel was $3.10.
In Yamhill, regular Gas was $2.99 Super was $3.15 &amp; Diesel was $3.11

I buy my diesel anywhere from Banks (north) to Brooks (south) and Yamhill
(west) to Canby (east). Because I carry 59 gallons, I can price shop for
quite a few miles. :-)

Report this message

#39: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 01:55:49 by Bill Putney

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

&gt; ...It's cheaper for us to use the gas stations as convenient job generators for
&gt; the bottom feeders than for us to run big social programs that create
&gt; make-work
&gt; jobs for them. The kids do pump some gas, true, but many people who might
&gt; otherwise be stuck permanently on welfare have used gas pumping jobs as
&gt; stepping stones to better jobs.

According to a skit that Saturday Night Live did a few years ago for
Black History Month, Self-Service gasoline pumping was invented by a
black kid - in the &quot;historical re-enactment&quot;, when a motorist pulled up
and honked his horn for gas, the kid yelled &quot;GET IT YO' DAMN SELF!&quot;, and
history was made. 8^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#40: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 05:24:04 by Joe Pfeiffer

I know this is a foolish question... but is there any reason people
are still responding to Nomen's mindless ravings?
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University <a href="http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer" target="_blank">http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer</a>
skype: jjpfeifferjr

Report this message

#41: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 07:43:56 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
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&gt;
&gt; &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:newscache$9j4cmi$2kf$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:P8PSe.13060$<a href="mailto:B34.2136&#64;trnddc09..." target="_blank">B34.2136&#64;trnddc09...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Don Phillipson&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com" target="_blank">d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt; news:agJSe.724$<a href="mailto:5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca..." target="_blank">5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; news:newscache$xi7ami$x8e$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Gasoline will be in short supply across the nation until the
&gt; &gt; refineries
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; start back up and at full operation.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; gasoline
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; prices have remained flat for the last month or two. I strongly
&gt; &gt; suspect
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; that the
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; oil companies don't like to pay a lot of money to ship gasoline all
&gt; &gt; over
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; place and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than
most
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; people would
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; believe, and that the oil companies will admit.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; It is extra interesting to see Oregon gas prices are stable.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; In eastern Canada as soon as Katrina shut down the
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Gulf wells retail gas prices went up by 25 per cent (and
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Canada produces 100 per cent of what Canada produces
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; -- although for cheapness western Canadian oil is exported
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; to the USA and we import US oil in eastern Canada.
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; --
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Don Phillipson
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Carlsbad Springs
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; (Ottawa, Canada)
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Well...
&gt; &gt;&gt; Oregon Fuel prices are NOT &quot;Stable&quot; !!!
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Just before Katrina, #2 Diesel was around $2.80 per gallon, it is now
(as
&gt; &gt; of
&gt; &gt;&gt; Saturday) at $3.15 per gallon.
&gt; &gt;&gt; Gasoline has hovered right under these prices, rising right along with
&gt; &gt;&gt; them...
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Heh - no I disagree - I have seen Diesel prices in Oregon rising long
&gt; &gt; before
&gt; &gt; this
&gt; &gt; and gasoline prices are NOT coupled to them, and least not where I'm
&gt; &gt; buying
&gt; &gt; gas. Diesel is indeed quite higher than gas, and I'm sure that if any
of
&gt; &gt; those diesel
&gt; &gt; owners are left who bought Diesel cars years ago thinking they would
save
&gt; &gt; money
&gt; &gt; on fuel they are probably screaming now.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I typically buy gasoline in Washington County. I live in PDX and the
&gt; &gt; prices
&gt; &gt; with
&gt; &gt; the city boundary appear to be at least 10-20 cents a gallon higher than
&gt; &gt; right outside
&gt; &gt; of it, such as in unincorporated Washington County (along US 26) and in
&gt; &gt; East Multnomah county outside of Gresham.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Prices in the rest of the state are higher. Prices along I-5 through
most
&gt; &gt; of the
&gt; &gt; state are gouging - it is asinine, there's gas stations along I-5 such
as
&gt; &gt; in
&gt; &gt; Albany
&gt; &gt; where they are 20 cents a gallon higher than if you drive a mile away
from
&gt; &gt; the
&gt; &gt; interstate and buy gas at a station there. Prices along the coast are
&gt; &gt; rediculous but
&gt; &gt; they always have been rediculous.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Part of the problem in many parts of the state is after the Shell/Texaco
&gt; &gt; merger
&gt; &gt; that removed competition in many of the smaller towns. I still don't
&gt; &gt; understand
&gt; &gt; why the lame-ass Oregon Attorney General hasn't done something about it
&gt; &gt; because
&gt; &gt; there's lots of places in PDX where you have 2 Shell stations literally
&gt; &gt; across the
&gt; &gt; street from each other.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Where are you buying fuel?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Ted
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; Diesel &amp; Gas prices in Oregon have been on the rise for quite a while, But
&gt; they took a 30-50 cent jump since Katrina hit land.

Not in the Portland metro area.

&gt; All my other cars run
&gt; on gasoline, and the prices for regular gas though (most times) cheaper,
&gt; have for the most part risen right along with the diesel.
&gt; Today in McMinnville, the regular Gas was $2.79 Diesel was $3.10.
&gt; In Yamhill, regular Gas was $2.99 Super was $3.15 &amp; Diesel was $3.11
&gt;
&gt; I buy my diesel anywhere from Banks (north) to Brooks (south) and Yamhill
&gt; (west) to Canby (east). Because I carry 59 gallons, I can price shop for
&gt; quite a few miles. :-)
&gt;
&gt;

Banks does not see the PDX-to-coast traffic as it's not right on US 26,
everyone
has filled their tanks long before going by there, that's a low-volume
station.

Canby is not on a major arterial, most people use I-5 not 99E, once more
it's
low-volume

Most people buy fuel in Salem before hitting Brooks, it's low-volume

Yamhill you have got to be kidding, there's no major arterials out there,
few
people, a very low volume of gas sold, plus they are probably paying extra
for hauling a tanker out on those roads.

All these are very small markets, and are remote, it is no wonder your
seeing
pricing rise - there's no competition. Those stations are
pumping low volumes and they are already paying more for gasoline than the
higher
volume stations in Portland, and your seeing those station owners being
opportunistic
now.

McMinnville is closer to PDX which is why your not seeing that big a
variance from
the average PDX prices, there's too many people who already drive from there
into
the metro area via 99W. If you were to go another 15-20 minutes into Tigard
you
would see cheaper prices.

I'll see tomorrow what the 76 I usually buy from off US 26 is charging, on
Friday
it was 2.66 The stations along 26 are a lot higher volume than
along 99W so they are buying a lot more gas at lower wholesale costs.

As I said, the Oregon attorney general needs to be shot for permitting the
oil
companies to violate the Sherman anti-trust act in most cities in Oregon
after the
last round of mergers. I guessed that sooner or later we would see gouging
going
on.

Ted

Report this message

#42: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 07:54:55 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message news:0d4Te.20225$<a href="mailto:cy4.80&#64;trnddc05..." target="_blank">cy4.80&#64;trnddc05...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Happy Traveler&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:happy_traveler&#64;abc.net" target="_blank">happy_traveler&#64;abc.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:lM-dnTEnWeJFvoHeRVn-2Q&#64;comcast.com..." target="_blank">lM-dnTEnWeJFvoHeRVn-2Q&#64;comcast.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; There is only one reason for me to wish for a larger fuel tank: be able
to
&gt; &gt; cross the otherwise great state of Oregon without buying gas. Are you
guys
&gt; &gt; going to change that ridiculous 'no self serve' law in any foreseeable
&gt; &gt; future? Is there anything genetically wrong with Oregon residents making
&gt; &gt; them unable to stick a nozzle in their gas tank when they grow up past
&gt; &gt; high
&gt; &gt; school age? For goodness sake, find something productive to do for those
&gt; &gt; 5000 kids 'employed' in your gas stations!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon
&gt; &gt; gasoline
&gt; &gt;&gt; prices have remained flat for the last month or two.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt; It has been on the ballet 3 separate times the last time within the last
&gt; year or so, there are just to many lazy people who prefer sitting their
car
&gt; not getting fuel on their hands to get enough votes to resend it!
&gt;

&gt; I still can't get a straight answer about why the hell they ever enacted
&gt; such an asinine law... Everything from to put otherwise unemployable
people
&gt; to work

That's the real reason - you won't find it on record anywhere though. In
any case what would you rather have done with the unemployables - do
you want to support them on your tax dollar? I certainly don't. For what
the state government would bite out of my taxes to support the
unemployables,
private industry in gas stations can do it at a quarter of the cost.

&gt; to some misconceived idea that it may be safer...
&gt;

That's the &quot;official&quot; reason that everyone knows is bullcrap. There are LOTS
of
official bullcrap reasons that are used all the time. For example, when
Iraq needed
to be invaded in order to remove a brutal human-right violator and his 2
insane
sons from power, the official bullcrap reason given was WMDs which everyone
with any intelligence knew at the time was a huge fat lie. Unfortunately
the feeble
minded that couldn't handle the truth needed some bullcrap to believe in
which is
why the WMD reason was dredged up to begin with. (of course, the problem
now
is that they can't come right out and say that the objective has been met
and thus
it's OK to go home, and they haven't come up with an official bullcrap
reason
to use to justify getting out of there that won't tear the veil to the
feeble-minded
and show those people that they knew the WMD reason was a lie at the time)

This is SOP for all governments, why are you upset about it?

&gt; BTW the law evidently does not apply to diesel. (weather or not a
particular
&gt; station knows it). I pump my own Diesel at a number of places.
&gt;

Most stations also allow motorcycle riders to fill their own tanks.

Ted

Report this message

#43: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 08:02:23 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Jonathan&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:ck1Te.5741$<a href="mailto:4P5.2041&#64;newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">4P5.2041&#64;newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt; Puleez...
&gt;
&gt; You need lots of electricity to seperate hydrogen from oxygen in water,

Before you go off half-cocked, know they have developed solar cells
that decompose water directly and can produce hydrogen and oxygen
directly from seawater and sunlight, no electricity is involved, not even
within the cell itself.

That doesen't of course negate the storage problems and make hydrogen
even remotely usable for vehicle fuel, but it does pretty much blow away
the 'takes more energy to produce it then you get back&quot; argument.

It took more solar energy to produce the oil deposits than we get back
from them, also. The difference is that you can pretty much assume that
solar energy is unlimited on the Earth and available almost everywhere,
so even if we can only generate a watt of power for every 10 watts of
power in sunlight that we get, since
the sunlight is free, after the initial cost to setup, there's no continuing
costs for the raw energy.

Ted

Report this message

#44: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 11:55:57 by 351CJ

&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:newscache$9xrdmi$7yg$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:fd4Te.20226$<a href="mailto:cy4.14096&#64;trnddc05..." target="_blank">cy4.14096&#64;trnddc05...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:newscache$9j4cmi$2kf$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt; news:P8PSe.13060$<a href="mailto:B34.2136&#64;trnddc09..." target="_blank">B34.2136&#64;trnddc09...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Don Phillipson&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com" target="_blank">d.phillipson&#64;ttrryytteell.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; news:agJSe.724$<a href="mailto:5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca..." target="_blank">5I2.2019&#64;newscontent-01.sprint.ca...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; news:newscache$xi7ami$x8e$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; news:<a href="mailto:dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dfdslu0vp1&#64;enews3.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Gasoline will be in short supply across the nation until the
&gt;&gt; &gt; refineries
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; start back up and at full operation.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I don't believe this is the case across the nation. Here in Oregon
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; gasoline
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; prices have remained flat for the last month or two. I strongly
&gt;&gt; &gt; suspect
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; that the
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; oil companies don't like to pay a lot of money to ship gasoline all
&gt;&gt; &gt; over
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; place and that a lot more of it is refined and sold locally than
&gt; most
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; people would
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; believe, and that the oil companies will admit.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; It is extra interesting to see Oregon gas prices are stable.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; In eastern Canada as soon as Katrina shut down the
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Gulf wells retail gas prices went up by 25 per cent (and
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Canada produces 100 per cent of what Canada produces
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; -- although for cheapness western Canadian oil is exported
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; to the USA and we import US oil in eastern Canada.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; --
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Don Phillipson
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Carlsbad Springs
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; (Ottawa, Canada)
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Well...
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Oregon Fuel prices are NOT &quot;Stable&quot; !!!
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Just before Katrina, #2 Diesel was around $2.80 per gallon, it is now
&gt; (as
&gt;&gt; &gt; of
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Saturday) at $3.15 per gallon.
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Gasoline has hovered right under these prices, rising right along with
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; them...
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Heh - no I disagree - I have seen Diesel prices in Oregon rising long
&gt;&gt; &gt; before
&gt;&gt; &gt; this
&gt;&gt; &gt; and gasoline prices are NOT coupled to them, and least not where I'm
&gt;&gt; &gt; buying
&gt;&gt; &gt; gas. Diesel is indeed quite higher than gas, and I'm sure that if any
&gt; of
&gt;&gt; &gt; those diesel
&gt;&gt; &gt; owners are left who bought Diesel cars years ago thinking they would
&gt; save
&gt;&gt; &gt; money
&gt;&gt; &gt; on fuel they are probably screaming now.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; I typically buy gasoline in Washington County. I live in PDX and the
&gt;&gt; &gt; prices
&gt;&gt; &gt; with
&gt;&gt; &gt; the city boundary appear to be at least 10-20 cents a gallon higher
&gt;&gt; &gt; than
&gt;&gt; &gt; right outside
&gt;&gt; &gt; of it, such as in unincorporated Washington County (along US 26) and in
&gt;&gt; &gt; East Multnomah county outside of Gresham.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Prices in the rest of the state are higher. Prices along I-5 through
&gt; most
&gt;&gt; &gt; of the
&gt;&gt; &gt; state are gouging - it is asinine, there's gas stations along I-5 such
&gt; as
&gt;&gt; &gt; in
&gt;&gt; &gt; Albany
&gt;&gt; &gt; where they are 20 cents a gallon higher than if you drive a mile away
&gt; from
&gt;&gt; &gt; the
&gt;&gt; &gt; interstate and buy gas at a station there. Prices along the coast are
&gt;&gt; &gt; rediculous but
&gt;&gt; &gt; they always have been rediculous.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Part of the problem in many parts of the state is after the
&gt;&gt; &gt; Shell/Texaco
&gt;&gt; &gt; merger
&gt;&gt; &gt; that removed competition in many of the smaller towns. I still don't
&gt;&gt; &gt; understand
&gt;&gt; &gt; why the lame-ass Oregon Attorney General hasn't done something about it
&gt;&gt; &gt; because
&gt;&gt; &gt; there's lots of places in PDX where you have 2 Shell stations literally
&gt;&gt; &gt; across the
&gt;&gt; &gt; street from each other.
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Where are you buying fuel?
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt; &gt; Ted
&gt;&gt; &gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Diesel &amp; Gas prices in Oregon have been on the rise for quite a while,
&gt;&gt; But
&gt;&gt; they took a 30-50 cent jump since Katrina hit land.
&gt;
&gt; Not in the Portland metro area.

Yes in the Portland metro area.
You ought to look around before you make such statements.
<a href="http://www.portlandgasprices.com/" target="_blank">http://www.portlandgasprices.com/</a>



&gt;
&gt;&gt; All my other cars run
&gt;&gt; on gasoline, and the prices for regular gas though (most times) cheaper,
&gt;&gt; have for the most part risen right along with the diesel.
&gt;&gt; Today in McMinnville, the regular Gas was $2.79 Diesel was $3.10.
&gt;&gt; In Yamhill, regular Gas was $2.99 Super was $3.15 &amp; Diesel was $3.11
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; I buy my diesel anywhere from Banks (north) to Brooks (south) and Yamhill
&gt;&gt; (west) to Canby (east). Because I carry 59 gallons, I can price shop for
&gt;&gt; quite a few miles. :-)
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Banks does not see the PDX-to-coast traffic as it's not right on US 26,
&gt; everyone
&gt; has filled their tanks long before going by there, that's a low-volume
&gt; station.


I guess I should have specified, ALL the places in between too, Like
Aurora, 3 stations right across the street from each other on I-5 (also a
major truck refueling stop)
Wilsonville, Tigard, Beaverton, Aloha, Hillsboro, Cornelius, Forest Grove,
Clackamas, Milwaukee, Oak Grove, Portland, ETC. ETC. ETC.


&gt;
&gt; Canby is not on a major arterial, most people use I-5 not 99E, once more
&gt; it's
&gt; low-volume


FYI:
I monitor Fuel prices quite closely, and Canby and Cornelius consistently
have some of the lowest prices in the greater Portland area...
<a href="http://www.oregongasprices.com/" target="_blank">http://www.oregongasprices.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.portlandgasprices.com/" target="_blank">http://www.portlandgasprices.com/</a>

&gt;
&gt; Most people buy fuel in Salem before hitting Brooks, it's low-volume
&gt;
&gt; Yamhill you have got to be kidding, there's no major arterials out there,
&gt; few
&gt; people, a very low volume of gas sold, plus they are probably paying extra
&gt; for hauling a tanker out on those roads.
&gt;
&gt; All these are very small markets, and are remote, it is no wonder your
&gt; seeing
&gt; pricing rise - there's no competition. Those stations are
&gt; pumping low volumes and they are already paying more for gasoline than the
&gt; higher
&gt; volume stations in Portland, and your seeing those station owners being
&gt; opportunistic
&gt; now.
&gt;
&gt; McMinnville is closer to PDX which is why your not seeing that big a
&gt; variance from
&gt; the average PDX prices, there's too many people who already drive from
&gt; there
&gt; into
&gt; the metro area via 99W. If you were to go another 15-20 minutes into
&gt; Tigard
&gt; you
&gt; would see cheaper prices.
&gt;
&gt; I'll see tomorrow what the 76 I usually buy from off US 26 is charging, on
&gt; Friday
&gt; it was 2.66 The stations along 26 are a lot higher volume than
&gt; along 99W so they are buying a lot more gas at lower wholesale costs.
&gt;
&gt; As I said, the Oregon attorney general needs to be shot for permitting the
&gt; oil
&gt; companies to violate the Sherman anti-trust act in most cities in Oregon
&gt; after the
&gt; last round of mergers. I guessed that sooner or later we would see
&gt; gouging
&gt; going
&gt; on.
&gt;
&gt; Ted
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#45: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 11:59:54 by Bill Putney

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

&gt; I know this is a foolish question... but is there any reason people
&gt; are still responding to Nomen's mindless ravings?

Yes.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#46: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 12:08:05 by Bill Putney

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

&gt; &quot;Jonathan&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:ck1Te.5741$<a href="mailto:4P5.2041&#64;newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">4P5.2041&#64;newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Puleez...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;You need lots of electricity to seperate hydrogen from oxygen in water,
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Before you go off half-cocked, know they have developed solar cells
&gt; that decompose water directly and can produce hydrogen and oxygen
&gt; directly from seawater and sunlight, no electricity is involved, not even
&gt; within the cell itself.
&gt;
&gt; That doesen't of course negate the storage problems and make hydrogen
&gt; even remotely usable for vehicle fuel, but it does pretty much blow away
&gt; the 'takes more energy to produce it then you get back&quot; argument.
&gt;
&gt; It took more solar energy to produce the oil deposits than we get back
&gt; from them, also. The difference is that you can pretty much assume that
&gt; solar energy is unlimited on the Earth and available almost everywhere,
&gt; so even if we can only generate a watt of power for every 10 watts of
&gt; power in sunlight that we get, since
&gt; the sunlight is free, after the initial cost to setup, there's no continuing
&gt; costs for the raw energy.

Exactly - that was the point of my previous post. The thing we can't do
is plug a power cord into the wall to do these
inconvenient-to-convenient energy source conversions. The most obvious
way to do it is to capture power from the sun that is essentially one of
God's gift to mankind. However, you just wait - environmentalists a
hundred years from now will come up with a reason that we can't do it,
or that it has to be very heavily taxed to discourage its use. They'll
quit talking about our mother the earth and start talking about our
mother the sun or the great sun god or godess that we have to respect or
some such other crap.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#47: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 12:23:06 by Matt Whiting

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

&gt; It took more solar energy to produce the oil deposits than we get back
&gt; from them, also. The difference is that you can pretty much assume that
&gt; solar energy is unlimited on the Earth and available almost everywhere,
&gt; so even if we can only generate a watt of power for every 10 watts of
&gt; power in sunlight that we get, since
&gt; the sunlight is free, after the initial cost to setup, there's no continuing
&gt; costs for the raw energy.

Yes, and that energy was integrated over a fairly long period of time as
best we know. It is hard to replicate that now so we need to look for
means of using sunlight in &quot;real time&quot;, not things that take years to
store up to get a day's worth of energy in return.


Matt

Report this message

#48: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-06 18:19:15 by me

Don't laugh everyone... In an argument (family discussion) we put forth the
idea of launching nuclear waste to the sun..(however fraught that is with
all kinds of *other* problems among them an explosion showering us with
nuclear waste...) one of the kids came up with

&quot;NOW YOU WANT TO POLLUTE THE SUN&quot; !!!!

So Bill there it is.. !!

Report this message

#49: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-07 02:49:04 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:NIdTe.13856$<a href="mailto:B34.7155&#64;trnddc09..." target="_blank">B34.7155&#64;trnddc09...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:newscache$9xrdmi$7yg$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Not in the Portland metro area.
&gt;
&gt; Yes in the Portland metro area.
&gt; You ought to look around before you make such statements.
&gt; <a href="http://www.portlandgasprices.com/" target="_blank">http://www.portlandgasprices.com/</a>
&gt;
&gt;

No, not in the Portland metro area - again.

Look at the site's chart here:

<a href="http://www.portlandgasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.portlandgasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx</a>

Note the average price 8/27 - 8/30 was 2.60

Look at today - the top 15 stations on the front page of
the site are at 2.63 - 2.66.

Where is this price jump in the Portland metro area?

Your looking at their average price rise - the problem is that their
average does not represent a real average of a price per gallon because
the stations aren't reporting their volume.

Some of the low volume stations in PDX are using the hurricane
as an excuse to gouge, that's all. 2 weeks ago the spread between
high price and low price was much smaller. Now those low volume
stations are skewing the average.

This is what they mean when they say statistics lie. We have a spread
of 2.59 for the low and 3.15 for the high - a whopping 56 cent spread.
The stations that are gouging 50 cents a gallon extra will get away with
it for a few weeks then everyone will stop going to them and when they
start losing money they will drop the price. 3 weeks ago I would guess
that there was no 56 cent spread on that site.

&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Banks does not see the PDX-to-coast traffic as it's not right on US 26,
&gt; &gt; everyone
&gt; &gt; has filled their tanks long before going by there, that's a low-volume
&gt; &gt; station.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I guess I should have specified, ALL the places in between too, Like
&gt; Aurora, 3 stations right across the street from each other on I-5 (also a
&gt; major truck refueling stop)
&gt; Wilsonville, Tigard, Beaverton, Aloha, Hillsboro, Cornelius, Forest Grove,
&gt; Clackamas, Milwaukee, Oak Grove, Portland, ETC. ETC. ETC.
&gt;

Sigh. Go back to that website and start looking at the top 15 again. Let's
see,
Clackamas, Hillsboro, Portland, Beaverton Damascus, Linnton.

&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Canby is not on a major arterial, most people use I-5 not 99E, once more
&gt; &gt; it's
&gt; &gt; low-volume
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; FYI:
&gt; I monitor Fuel prices quite closely, and Canby and Cornelius consistently
&gt; have some of the lowest prices in the greater Portland area...
&gt; <a href="http://www.oregongasprices.com/" target="_blank">http://www.oregongasprices.com/</a>
&gt; <a href="http://www.portlandgasprices.com/" target="_blank">http://www.portlandgasprices.com/</a>
&gt;

I would guess Not Anymore. I suspect your favorte stations are just using
the hurricane as an excuse to gouge. We are going to see a lot of that I
think.

Truth is I have been rather surprised to see this at certain stations -
I've seen
stations with a 10 cent difference in price right next to each other in the
last week,
so has my wife. Previously the biggest difference we have seen was 3 cents
in these instances. And some of the stations that I've avoided over the
last 6 months
because they always ran 3-4 cents higher are now lower. For example the 76
right
next to my house has always been 3 cents higher than the Shell down the
road,
now it's reversed.

I can understand fuel price gouging when there's fuel shortages but we don't
have a shortage here, I've yet to see a gas station with a sign out saying
they
are out of gas.

Cool site though, I'll have to start reporting the stations I pass daily.

Ted

Report this message

#50: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-07 03:31:51 by Don

&quot;Jonathan&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:QUrSe.5793$<a href="mailto:Wd7.2668&#64;newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">Wd7.2668&#64;newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;snip
&gt;
&gt; Start with something that makes more sense, like mandating that gas
&gt; stations must have a way to retrieve the fuel from their in-ground tanks
&gt; when the electricity fails. That makes more sense than a larger gas tank
&gt; in your car.
&gt;
&gt; more snippage
&gt;
&gt; Jonathan
&gt;


What would really make sense, is making vehicles that don't use gasoline, or
at least very little of it. I say we should have cars that get 100 mpg or
better. Bush gave billions of your $$$$$$ to the oil companies but should
have given it to those who would find alternative fuel sources instead. Then
we wouldn't be fighting wars in foreign lands for their oil, and our
National Guardsmen would be home to protect our cities during a time of
crises like we are seeing on the news channels 24/7.

Report this message

#51: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-07 11:08:26 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:

&gt; &quot;Jonathan&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com" target="_blank">Fire_Capt651&#64;hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:QUrSe.5793$<a href="mailto:Wd7.2668&#64;newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net..." target="_blank">Wd7.2668&#64;newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;snip
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Start with something that makes more sense, like mandating that gas
&gt;&gt;stations must have a way to retrieve the fuel from their in-ground tanks
&gt;&gt;when the electricity fails. That makes more sense than a larger gas tank
&gt;&gt;in your car.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;more snippage
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Jonathan
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; What would really make sense, is making vehicles that don't use gasoline, or
&gt; at least very little of it. I say we should have cars that get 100 mpg or
&gt; better. Bush gave billions of your $$$$$$ to the oil companies but should
&gt; have given it to those who would find alternative fuel sources instead. Then
&gt; we wouldn't be fighting wars in foreign lands for their oil, and our
&gt; National Guardsmen would be home to protect our cities during a time of
&gt; crises like we are seeing on the news channels 24/7.

Oh please!! So where was all that money for alternative energy going
before Bush?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#52: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-07 20:20:25 by 351CJ

&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.oregongasprices.com/" target="_blank">http://www.oregongasprices.com/</a>
&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.portlandgasprices.com/" target="_blank">http://www.portlandgasprices.com/</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Cool site though, I'll have to start reporting the stations I pass daily.
&gt;
&gt; Ted
&gt;
&gt;

FYI:
Aurora and Brooks have the cheapest diesel 2.89 in Oregon today...

Report this message

#53: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-07 20:37:51 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Matt Whiting&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:whiting&#64;epix.net" target="_blank">whiting&#64;epix.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:e6eTe.220$<a href="mailto:lb.29129&#64;news1.epix.net..." target="_blank">lb.29129&#64;news1.epix.net...</a>
&gt; Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; It took more solar energy to produce the oil deposits than we get back
&gt; &gt; from them, also. The difference is that you can pretty much assume that
&gt; &gt; solar energy is unlimited on the Earth and available almost everywhere,
&gt; &gt; so even if we can only generate a watt of power for every 10 watts of
&gt; &gt; power in sunlight that we get, since
&gt; &gt; the sunlight is free, after the initial cost to setup, there's no
continuing
&gt; &gt; costs for the raw energy.
&gt;
&gt; Yes, and that energy was integrated over a fairly long period of time as
&gt; best we know. It is hard to replicate that now so we need to look for
&gt; means of using sunlight in &quot;real time&quot;, not things that take years to
&gt; store up to get a day's worth of energy in return.
&gt;

Use a really, really, really BIG magnifying glass! ;-)

I think the oil-creating process that took a failrly long period of time
was probably on the order of .000000000000000000001%
efficiency. It's impossible to calculate of course, since we don't
know how many hundreds of gallons of plant oil had to be produced
for one drop of it to find it's way down thousands of feet of rock and
sand into an oil dome. But clearly, we should be able to do a lot
better than that with solar energy.

Ted

Report this message

#54: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-07 20:38:49 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dfjpq8$3us$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; way to do it is to capture power from the sun that is essentially one of
&gt; God's gift to mankind. However, you just wait - environmentalists a
&gt; hundred years from now will come up with a reason that we can't do it,
&gt; or that it has to be very heavily taxed to discourage its use. They'll
&gt; quit talking about our mother the earth and start talking about our
&gt; mother the sun or the great sun god or godess that we have to respect or
&gt; some such other crap.
&gt;

You've been listening to George Carlin again. ;-)

Ted

Report this message

#55: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-07 21:02:59 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:bqrTe.27068$<a href="mailto:mb4.13249&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">mb4.13249&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; better. Bush gave billions of your $$$$$$ to the oil companies but should
&gt; have given it to those who would find alternative fuel sources instead.

It's not finding the sources that's the problem, go outside and look up and
there it is. It's developing the alternative ones that have an ongoing cost
of
operation that's cheaper than just digging oil up out of the ground.

Consdier also that if the US ever seriously did that, that the Mid East oil
producers could easily drop the price of a barrel of oil down to $5 a
barrel or some such - they might have to give up a few solid gold
bathroom fixtures to do it - for long enough to make sure that such
alternative
sources would be throughly quashed.

Oil production is like diamond production. It's rediculously cheap and a
massive conspiracy called OPEC exists to make sure it stays expensive,
in order to bleed as much money as possible out of consumers.

Last I checked raw sunlight is free - in fact in most homes we spend a lot
of money getting rid of what we call &quot;waste heat&quot; via air conditioning that
is generated by that sunlight falling on those homes. It is simply a matter
of
converting all that free energy into a more usable and storable form.
Once someone invents a photovoltiac solar cell that has an efficiency
on the order of 80% instead of the miserable 15-20% today, we already
have zinc-air battery technology available that could make use of that.

There's some promising research on 50% efficient solar cells here:

<a href="http://trnmag.com/Stories/2002/121102/Material_soaks_up_the_sun_121102.html" target="_blank"> http://trnmag.com/Stories/2002/121102/Material_soaks_up_the_ sun_121102.html</a>



Ted

Report this message

#56: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-08 00:06:43 by Bill Putney

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dfjpq8$3us$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;way to do it is to capture power from the sun that is essentially one of
&gt;&gt;God's gift to mankind. However, you just wait - environmentalists a
&gt;&gt;hundred years from now will come up with a reason that we can't do it,
&gt;&gt;or that it has to be very heavily taxed to discourage its use. They'll
&gt;&gt;quit talking about our mother the earth and start talking about our
&gt;&gt;mother the sun or the great sun god or godess that we have to respect or
&gt;&gt;some such other crap.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; You've been listening to George Carlin again. ;-)
&gt;
&gt; Ted

Oh crap! You're telling me that I'm thinking like George Carlin!
Seriously I don't listen to him. This is upsetting! 8^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#57: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-08 00:10:09 by Bill Putney

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

&gt; &quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:bqrTe.27068$<a href="mailto:mb4.13249&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">mb4.13249&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;better. Bush gave billions of your $$$$$$ to the oil companies but should
&gt;&gt;have given it to those who would find alternative fuel sources instead.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; It's not finding the sources that's the problem, go outside and look up and
&gt; there it is. It's developing the alternative ones that have an ongoing cost
&gt; of
&gt; operation that's cheaper than just digging oil up out of the ground.
&gt;
&gt; Consdier also that if the US ever seriously did that, that the Mid East oil
&gt; producers could easily drop the price of a barrel of oil down to $5 a
&gt; barrel or some such - they might have to give up a few solid gold
&gt; bathroom fixtures to do it - for long enough to make sure that such
&gt; alternative
&gt; sources would be throughly quashed.
&gt;
&gt; Oil production is like diamond production. It's rediculously cheap and a
&gt; massive conspiracy called OPEC exists to make sure it stays expensive,
&gt; in order to bleed as much money as possible out of consumers.

No - our politicians (and apparently those in Europe) would just tax it
more.

Remember that Beatles song &quot;The Taxman&quot; that I quoted a few weeks ago:
&quot;...Take a walk and I'll tax your feet...&quot;

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#58: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-08 00:43:58 by Don

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dfnog3$36f$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Remember that Beatles song &quot;The Taxman&quot; that I quoted a few weeks ago:
&gt; &quot;...Take a walk and I'll tax your feet...&quot;
&gt;
&gt; Bill Putney
&gt;

They can go ahead and tax my feet. Just so long as I'm not working my life
away to pay for some Arab.

We need independence from foreign oil.

Don't be so pig-headed and admit that your boy bush is a mistake.

Report this message

#59: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-08 01:33:18 by 351CJ

&quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:O2KTe.27372$<a href="mailto:mb4.7402&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">mb4.7402&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dfnog3$36f$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;&gt; Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Remember that Beatles song &quot;The Taxman&quot; that I quoted a few weeks ago:
&gt;&gt; &quot;...Take a walk and I'll tax your feet...&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Bill Putney
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; They can go ahead and tax my feet. Just so long as I'm not working my life
&gt; away to pay for some Arab.
&gt;
&gt; We need independence from foreign oil.
&gt;
&gt; Don't be so pig-headed and admit that your boy bush is a mistake.
&gt;

You do realize that this &quot;oil&quot; system was in place LONG before either Bush
and will be in place long after, don't you?

Report this message

#60: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-08 01:40:26 by Don

&quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message news:2NKTe.306$<a href="mailto:3B2.66&#64;trnddc02..." target="_blank">3B2.66&#64;trnddc02...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; You do realize that this &quot;oil&quot; system was in place LONG before either Bush
&gt; and will be in place long after, don't you?
&gt;

Unfortunately, yes.

I'd rather pay for some other method of getting around as long as no bush or
an Arab is getting rich off my need to travel to and from work etc. But
until that time, I will suffer along with the rest of you.

Report this message

#61: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-08 01:56:25 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:

&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dfnog3$36f$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Remember that Beatles song &quot;The Taxman&quot; that I quoted a few weeks ago:
&gt;&gt;&quot;...Take a walk and I'll tax your feet...&quot;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Bill Putney
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; They can go ahead and tax my feet. Just so long as I'm not working my life
&gt; away to pay for some Arab.
&gt;
&gt; We need independence from foreign oil.
&gt;
&gt; Don't be so pig-headed and admit that your boy bush is a mistake.

When the choices are the likes of Dean or Kerry or Algore, believe me -
I'll take Bush. You libs want to get one of your own in office, then
quit parading around people like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Robert
&quot;Sheets&quot; Byrd, and George Soros. Your choice. I'm just the messenger.
Reality is a bitch.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#62: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-08 03:06:06 by Count Floyd

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:56:25 UTC, Bill Putney &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt; Don wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:dfnog3$36f$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Remember that Beatles song &quot;The Taxman&quot; that I quoted a few weeks ago:
&gt; &gt;&gt;&quot;...Take a walk and I'll tax your feet...&quot;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Bill Putney
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; They can go ahead and tax my feet. Just so long as I'm not working my life
&gt; &gt; away to pay for some Arab.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; We need independence from foreign oil.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Don't be so pig-headed and admit that your boy bush is a mistake.
&gt;
&gt; When the choices are the likes of Dean or Kerry or Algore, believe me -
&gt; I'll take Bush. You libs want to get one of your own in office, then
&gt; quit parading around people like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Robert
&gt; &quot;Sheets&quot; Byrd, and George Soros. Your choice. I'm just the messenger.
&gt; Reality is a bitch.
&gt;
&gt; Bill Putney
&gt; (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
&gt; address with the letter 'x')

Didn't the Nash 600 come out in the early '40's claiming 30mpg on a 20
gallon gas tank?

Report this message

#63: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-08 09:48:02 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dfnoaj$31j$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:dfjpq8$3us$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;way to do it is to capture power from the sun that is essentially one of
&gt; &gt;&gt;God's gift to mankind. However, you just wait - environmentalists a
&gt; &gt;&gt;hundred years from now will come up with a reason that we can't do it,
&gt; &gt;&gt;or that it has to be very heavily taxed to discourage its use. They'll
&gt; &gt;&gt;quit talking about our mother the earth and start talking about our
&gt; &gt;&gt;mother the sun or the great sun god or godess that we have to respect or
&gt; &gt;&gt;some such other crap.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; You've been listening to George Carlin again. ;-)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Ted
&gt;
&gt; Oh crap! You're telling me that I'm thinking like George Carlin!
&gt; Seriously I don't listen to him. This is upsetting! 8^)
&gt;

He has a great monolog about religion where he says he's decided to
cut all the crap and just worship the sun.

Ted

Report this message

#64: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-08 09:50:09 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Count Floyd&quot; &lt;Count <a href="mailto:Floyd&#64;sctv.com" target="_blank">Floyd&#64;sctv.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:wNXq1lnvlQd7-pn2-yErJoRpXcWm5&#64;localhost..." target="_blank">wNXq1lnvlQd7-pn2-yErJoRpXcWm5&#64;localhost...</a>

&gt;
&gt; Didn't the Nash 600 come out in the early '40's claiming 30mpg on a 20
&gt; gallon gas tank?
&gt;

There's been a lot of those in automotive history. Secret: make the car
really really light with a really really small underpowered engine. It
works
really well until you decide to go up a hill, drive fast on the interstate,
or
another bigger car runs into you.

Ted

Report this message

#65: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 00:18:52 by Don

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dfnund$6jb$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; When the choices are the likes of Dean or Kerry or Algore, believe me -
&gt; I'll take Bush. You libs want to get one of your own in office, then quit
&gt; parading around people like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Robert &quot;Sheets&quot;
&gt; Byrd, and George Soros. Your choice. I'm just the messenger. Reality is
&gt; a bitch.
&gt;
&gt; Bill Putney
&gt;


Or we could just fire the supreme court, use voting machines that actually
work right and get rid of the republikans fixing the elections. Bush never
did win either election. But then, you probably believe the lies told by the
bush puppy media.

Regardless, the facts still remain. We could have more energy efficient
vehicles in the near future if bush/cheney would quit pandering to the oil
companies.

Report this message

#66: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 01:40:09 by 351CJ

&quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:gN2Ue.27615$<a href="mailto:mb4.24744&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">mb4.24744&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dfnund$6jb$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; When the choices are the likes of Dean or Kerry or Algore, believe me -
&gt;&gt; I'll take Bush. You libs want to get one of your own in office, then
&gt;&gt; quit parading around people like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Robert
&gt;&gt; &quot;Sheets&quot; Byrd, and George Soros. Your choice. I'm just the messenger.
&gt;&gt; Reality is a bitch.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Bill Putney
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Or we could just fire the supreme court, use voting machines that actually
&gt; work right and get rid of the republikans fixing the elections. Bush never
&gt; did win either election. But then, you probably believe the lies told by
&gt; the bush puppy media.
&gt;
&gt; Regardless, the facts still remain. We could have more energy efficient
&gt; vehicles in the near future if bush/cheney would quit pandering to the oil
&gt; companies.
&gt;

If indeed we can look past your hate of Bush and everything Republican for a
few minutes, lets look at Clinton's eight years in office and his lack of
&quot;more energy efficient vehicles&quot;. How do you explain your contempt for it
not happening under Bush, when it never happened under Clinton either???
You would be much more successful in your endeavor &quot;more energy efficient
vehicles&quot; if you could untangle that issue from your politics, and identify
the real obstacles. Your Bush bashing approach really throws your
credibility into question on this issue.

Report this message

#67: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 01:50:08 by Don

&quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message news:tZ3Ue.1690$<a href="mailto:yH2.882&#64;trnddc05..." target="_blank">yH2.882&#64;trnddc05...</a>
&gt;
&gt; If indeed we can look past your hate of Bush and everything Republican for
&gt; a few minutes, lets look at Clinton's eight years in office and his lack
&gt; of &quot;more energy efficient vehicles&quot;. How do you explain your contempt
&gt; for it not happening under Bush, when it never happened under Clinton
&gt; either??? You would be much more successful in your endeavor &quot;more energy
&gt; efficient vehicles&quot; if you could untangle that issue from your politics,
&gt; and identify the real obstacles. Your Bush bashing approach really throws
&gt; your credibility into question on this issue.
&gt;



Under Clinton, a clear majority of the people were not really all too
concerned with gas prices at an average of about $1.50.

Under bush, the price of gas has doubled in just 4½ years. Hell, it's gone
up over a $1.00 in the last month. And we all know it's not because of
Katrina. Members of both parties D's and R's alike are calling these high
prices &quot;GOUGING.&quot; And since bush is pandering to the oil companies that paid
his election bills...

Al Gore did talk about money for &quot;renewable&quot; energy during his campaign, but
the media would rather have had you believing that all he was good for was
lying about the internet. And since Al Gore was a member of the Clinton
administration, I guess under Clinton, something was being done.

Report this message

#68: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 02:25:00 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:

&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dfnund$6jb$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;When the choices are the likes of Dean or Kerry or Algore, believe me -
&gt;&gt;I'll take Bush. You libs want to get one of your own in office, then quit
&gt;&gt;parading around people like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Robert &quot;Sheets&quot;
&gt;&gt;Byrd, and George Soros. Your choice. I'm just the messenger. Reality is
&gt;&gt;a bitch.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Bill Putney
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Or we could just fire the supreme court, use voting machines that actually
&gt; work right and get rid of the republikans fixing the elections. Bush never
&gt; did win either election...

And the astronauts never went to the moon, and the earth is flat, and
Sadam never had WMD's, and Bush prayed hurricane Katrina into being and
hitting the gulf coast. Yeah yeah - heard it all before from the
lunatic fringe.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#69: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 02:48:10 by David

&quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message news:tZ3Ue.1690$<a href="mailto:yH2.882&#64;trnddc05..." target="_blank">yH2.882&#64;trnddc05...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:gN2Ue.27615$<a href="mailto:mb4.24744&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">mb4.24744&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt; news:dfnund$6jb$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; When the choices are the likes of Dean or Kerry or Algore, believe me -
&gt;&gt;&gt; I'll take Bush. You libs want to get one of your own in office, then
&gt;&gt;&gt; quit parading around people like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Robert
&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;Sheets&quot; Byrd, and George Soros. Your choice. I'm just the messenger.
&gt;&gt;&gt; Reality is a bitch.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt; Bill Putney
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Or we could just fire the supreme court, use voting machines that
&gt;&gt; actually work right and get rid of the republikans fixing the elections.
&gt;&gt; Bush never did win either election. But then, you probably believe the
&gt;&gt; lies told by the bush puppy media.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Regardless, the facts still remain. We could have more energy efficient
&gt;&gt; vehicles in the near future if bush/cheney would quit pandering to the
&gt;&gt; oil companies.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt; If indeed we can look past your hate of Bush and everything Republican for
&gt; a few minutes, lets look at Clinton's eight years in office and his lack
&gt; of &quot;more energy efficient vehicles&quot;. How do you explain your contempt
&gt; for it not happening under Bush, when it never happened under Clinton
&gt; either???

And it didn't happen under Reagan, nor Carter, Nor Ford, nor Nixon.


&gt; You would be much more successful in your endeavor &quot;more energy efficient
&gt; vehicles&quot; if you could untangle that issue from your politics, and
&gt; identify the real obstacles. Your Bush bashing approach really throws
&gt; your credibility into question on this issue.

Yes, typical pro-Bush supporter. The hell with freedom of expression.
Expressing Bush is an idiot who lied and has killed countless American
soldiers so he can tell his Daddy &quot;Look Daddy, I got Saddam for you, Do you
forgive me for being an alcohilic cokehead?&quot; is totally wrong. Under the
bush Administration any anti Bush sentiment is totally uncalled for. He is
the Best there ever was!!!

Report this message

#70: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 03:39:01 by Bill Putney

David wrote:
&gt;
&gt; Yes, typical pro-Bush supporter. The hell with freedom of expression.
&gt; Expressing Bush is an idiot who lied and has killed countless American
&gt; soldiers so he can tell his Daddy &quot;Look Daddy, I got Saddam for you, Do you
&gt; forgive me for being an alcohilic cokehead?&quot; is totally wrong. Under the
&gt; bush Administration any anti Bush sentiment is totally uncalled for. He is
&gt; the Best there ever was!!!

Man - talk about being high on something!! Take deep breaths.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#71: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 03:57:56 by Bill Putney

David wrote:


&gt; Yes, typical pro-Bush supporter. The hell with freedom of expression.

So who has been prevented from expressing themselves?

&gt; Expressing Bush is an idiot who lied and has killed countless American
&gt; soldiers so he can tell his Daddy &quot;Look Daddy, I got Saddam for you, Do you
&gt; forgive me for being an alcohilic cokehead?&quot; is totally wrong.

Go back and read your sentence. You are saying that &quot;Expressing that
Bush is an idiot who...[did this and that]...is totally wrong&quot;. You're
not even writing logical sentences (besides what you're claiming being
totally FOS). You should be gellin', not yellin'.


&gt; Under the
&gt; bush Administration any anti Bush sentiment is totally uncalled for.

Once again - you don't appear to be able to get your thoughts out. To
say that anti-Bush sentiment is uncalled for sounds like you support
Bush - which I get the distinct impression is not what you are intending
to say. Again, you're coming off like a crazy man.

&gt; He is
&gt; the Best there ever was!!!

So who is saying that? When you make ludicrous claims about what people
are saying when they are not saying anything close to what you are
claiming, as someone else said, you lose credibility. But - hey -
Michael Moore would be very proud. Keep up the good work. Makes our
side look good.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#72: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 04:57:02 by Greg Houston

David wrote:

&gt; &quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message news:tZ3Ue.1690$<a href="mailto:yH2.882&#64;trnddc05..." target="_blank">yH2.882&#64;trnddc05...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:gN2Ue.27615$<a href="mailto:mb4.24744&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">mb4.24744&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt;&gt; news:dfnund$6jb$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; When the choices are the likes of Dean or Kerry or Algore, believe me -
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I'll take Bush. You libs want to get one of your own in office, then
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; quit parading around people like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Robert
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;Sheets&quot; Byrd, and George Soros. Your choice. I'm just the messenger.
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Reality is a bitch.
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Bill Putney
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Or we could just fire the supreme court, use voting machines that
&gt; &gt;&gt; actually work right and get rid of the republikans fixing the elections.
&gt; &gt;&gt; Bush never did win either election. But then, you probably believe the
&gt; &gt;&gt; lies told by the bush puppy media.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; Regardless, the facts still remain. We could have more energy efficient
&gt; &gt;&gt; vehicles in the near future if bush/cheney would quit pandering to the
&gt; &gt;&gt; oil companies.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; If indeed we can look past your hate of Bush and everything Republican for
&gt; &gt; a few minutes, lets look at Clinton's eight years in office and his lack
&gt; &gt; of &quot;more energy efficient vehicles&quot;. How do you explain your contempt
&gt; &gt; for it not happening under Bush, when it never happened under Clinton
&gt; &gt; either???
&gt;
&gt; And it didn't happen under Reagan, nor Carter, Nor Ford, nor Nixon.
&gt;
&gt; &gt; You would be much more successful in your endeavor &quot;more energy efficient
&gt; &gt; vehicles&quot; if you could untangle that issue from your politics, and
&gt; &gt; identify the real obstacles. Your Bush bashing approach really throws
&gt; &gt; your credibility into question on this issue.
&gt;
&gt; Yes, typical pro-Bush supporter. The hell with freedom of expression.
&gt; Expressing Bush is an idiot who lied and has killed countless American
&gt; soldiers

Now Bush is killing? I was under the impression that it was enemy combatants
and terrorists that were killing. Silly me.

&gt; so he can tell his Daddy &quot;Look Daddy, I got Saddam for you, Do you
&gt; forgive me for being an alcohilic cokehead?&quot;

Welcome back to the group, Lloyd.

Report this message

#73: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 08:55:45 by joe

&quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:gN2Ue.27615$<a href="mailto:mb4.24744&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">mb4.24744&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dfnund$6jb$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; When the choices are the likes of Dean or Kerry or Algore, believe me -
&gt;&gt; I'll take Bush. You libs want to get one of your own in office, then
&gt;&gt; quit parading around people like Michael Moore, Ted Kennedy, Robert
&gt;&gt; &quot;Sheets&quot; Byrd, and George Soros. Your choice. I'm just the messenger.
&gt;&gt; Reality is a bitch.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Bill Putney
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Or we could just fire the supreme court, use voting machines that actually
&gt; work right and get rid of the republikans fixing the elections. Bush never
&gt; did win either election. But then, you probably believe the lies told by
&gt; the bush puppy media.
&gt;
&gt; Regardless, the facts still remain. We could have more energy efficient
&gt; vehicles in the near future if bush/cheney would quit pandering to the oil
&gt; companies.
&gt;
&gt;
You're very confused. Surely you must realize that we WILL have much more
energy efficient vehicles as long as the price of gas stays VERY HIGH. The
problem with it right now is it's too low to sell fuel efficient vehicles,
and nobody will buy them. The technology is child's play.

It's certainly possible to mandate efficient vehicles, ration gasoline, and
sell it for 25 cents a gallon (or somewhere in there). Amazingly (to me, at
least) no country on earth ever did that. They all chose many years ago to
get the price VERY HIGH instead. America is the only country that tried to
keep it low and mandate efficiency without rationing. That is because we
want our poor folks to be able to drive without so much hardship. Other
countries want their poor to take the bus. It's a different set of ideals.
In a sense, our plan has backfired, because people switched to trucks (that
didn't have mandated efficiency) and burned the cheap gas like crazy,
creating the current and future fuel shortage.

I realize this is just a urinating contest, and I hope you won't think less
of me because I said something about it. I just really am having a hard time
beliving that any liberal could as ignorant as you are pretending to be,
arguing the opposite side from the one you're supposed to.

And for pete's sake stop crossposting.

Report this message

#74: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-09 10:27:39 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:Q64Ue.47907$<a href="mailto:32.17734&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">32.17734&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;351CJ&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:351CJ&#64;msn.com" target="_blank">351CJ&#64;msn.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:tZ3Ue.1690$<a href="mailto:yH2.882&#64;trnddc05..." target="_blank">yH2.882&#64;trnddc05...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; If indeed we can look past your hate of Bush and everything Republican
for
&gt; &gt; a few minutes, lets look at Clinton's eight years in office and his lack
&gt; &gt; of &quot;more energy efficient vehicles&quot;. How do you explain your contempt
&gt; &gt; for it not happening under Bush, when it never happened under Clinton
&gt; &gt; either??? You would be much more successful in your endeavor &quot;more
energy
&gt; &gt; efficient vehicles&quot; if you could untangle that issue from your politics,
&gt; &gt; and identify the real obstacles. Your Bush bashing approach really
throws
&gt; &gt; your credibility into question on this issue.
&gt; &gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Under Clinton, a clear majority of the people were not really all too
&gt; concerned with gas prices at an average of about $1.50.
&gt;
&gt; Under bush, the price of gas has doubled in just 4½ years. Hell, it's gone
&gt; up over a $1.00 in the last month. And we all know it's not because of
&gt; Katrina.

No, it's because OPEC doesen't like it when one of their partners in
crime gets invaded, even when that partner really needs to get invaded.

Everyone forgets that the vast majority of people in the Mid East don't
own cars and have practically no use for all that oil under their feet.
Instead
what they really care about is pushing Israel into the sea. Most of them
would love nothing better to kill a Jew. We are talking thousands of
years of animosity and violence between both groups, people, and
thousands of years of outsiders (like Romans) keeping both groups
whipped up hating each other as it serves their interests.

As long as the US is allied with Israel the Mid East Arabs are going to
consider us their enemies based on the &quot;friend of my enemy is my enemy&quot;
principle. They have obviously figured out that we want oil and that they
can hurt us by making us pay a lot of money for it. And the more things we

do that they don't like the more we are going to pay for it.

&gt;
&gt; Al Gore did talk about money for &quot;renewable&quot; energy during his campaign,
but
&gt; the media would rather have had you believing that all he was good for was
&gt; lying about the internet. And since Al Gore was a member of the Clinton
&gt; administration, I guess under Clinton, something was being done.
&gt;

You know, seems to me I recall under Clinton that we already knew that SUV's
were horrible vehicles and lots of people were trying to find out ways to
get rid of them or at least cut down their population on the highways. It
was the Republicans who were publically saying &quot;leave them alone everyone
should be able to drive whatever they want it's a free country, yappa yappa&quot;

How ironic that it's Bush's policies are directly responsible for the US
population turning it's back on the SUV in favor of smaller more fuel
efficient vehicles. It seems that the more that the Republicans do to try
to
discourage government regulation, the more things fall apart and the more
that the US population demands more regulation. Just look at what happened
with the push to privatize all the public power utilities.

A few more years of this and the liberals will be better off with Bush in
there
than a real liberal. For years we liberals have tried to warn the US
population
of the dangers of doing things the Republican way. So we finally had to let
the Republicans go ahead and fuck things up and they have done such a good
job of it that it's driven the point we've been trying to make home far far
better
than we ever could have.

Based on Bush's track record this term I think by the time his term is up
that
he will have pissed off the US general population so badly that they won't
be
voting Republican for another 20 years.

Ted

Report this message

#75: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-10 00:51:52 by Sarge

&quot;Don&quot; wrote: &quot;Or we could just fire the supreme court, use voting machines
that actually work right and get rid of the republikans fixing the
elections. Bush never did win either election. But then, you probably
believe the lies told by the bush puppy media.

Regardless, the facts still remain. We could have more energy efficient
vehicles in the near future if bush/cheney would quit pandering to the oil
companies.&quot;

Learn the facts. The voting machines did work the idiots voting could not
vote properly. Unfortunately for you, popular vote does matter as much in a
presidential election. Then again it could be to your benefit since if we
counted popular vote some politicians would never get elected because the
big cities would control the vote.

By the way every recount showed Bush won.

Sarge

Report this message

#76: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-10 01:00:58 by Sarge

&quot;Don&quot; wrote: &quot;And we all know it's not because of Katrina. Members of both
parties D's and R's alike are calling these high
prices &quot;GOUGING.&quot; And since bush is pandering to the oil companies that paid
his election bills...&quot;

What proof do you have that Katrina did not affect the gas prices? Katrina
shut down all of the Gulf of Mexico oil production, which produces 1/3 of
the nations energy needs. 9 refineries were shut down for at least a week
and at present 6 refineries are not running. 2 are in the process of
starting up. 4 still have flood water in them and cannot begin to start up
until repairs and clean up are completed. This equates to less gasoline
being produced and less gasoline means less supply for the same demand.
Supply and demand will set the price. Simple economics.

Sarge

Report this message

#77: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-10 02:32:35 by Eric G

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C5B57D.9CFBBC10
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=&quot;iso-8859-1&quot;
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1 of 2 things will happen when the cars dry out....

Insurance companies have the 'nads to say : &quot;You didn't see the storm =
coming, nor did you take advantage of the local gov't warning to leave =
due to the severity of the storm? The loss of your car was 100% =
preventable......... Claim Denied&quot;

or=20

They wuss out and EVERYONE will get soaked with higher premiums for =
their vehicle insurance. =20


On a related note, a certain Mayor should be held personally and =
financially responsible for the loss of all those School Busses, as well =
as the losses (health and life) resulting from his decision not to use =
them to evacuate the town, because he called for Greyhound busses so his =
constituents would be able to leave in style.... And why exactly was =
the levee system neglected for the past 3 decades? The Army Corps of =
Engineers supposedly were stymied as to improving the system due to the =
KNOWLEDGE that they would not survive a cat 3 'cane???? This was NOT a =
failure in DC. What I learned from the Incident Command System class I =
took as a Fire Department officer was that FEMA relies on the LOCAL =
GOV'T following their predetermined emergency plan, which didn't happen. =
That's the stuff that keeps FEMA from being able to act. Under the ICS =
model, every entity up to the Feds has a predetermined function, within =
a specific chain of command. You can't break the chain, because of =
accountability issues. =20


ERIC GIRONDA
&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message =
news:newscache$qe5cmi$kkf$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>


------- snip ---------


be an oversupply and the price will crash - until that is, everyone =
with
flooded
out cars gets their insurance money and runs out and buys new ones =
which
they then want to drive all over the place. ;-)

Ted
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C5B57D.9CFBBC10
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charset=&quot;iso-8859-1&quot;
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&lt;HTML&gt;&lt;HEAD&gt;
&lt;META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D&quot;text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1&quot;&gt;
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&lt;BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;1 of 2 things will happen when the cars =
dry=20
out....&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;Insurance companies have the 'nads to =
say :&amp;nbsp;=20
&quot;You didn't see the storm coming, nor did you take advantage of the =
local gov't=20
warning to leave due to the severity of the =
storm?&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;The&amp;nbsp;loss of=20
your car was 100% preventable......... Claim Denied&quot;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;or &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;They wuss out and EVERYONE will get =
soaked with=20
higher premiums for their vehicle insurance.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;On a related note, a certain Mayor =
should be held=20
personally and financially responsible for the loss of all those School =
Busses,=20
as well as the losses (health and life) resulting from his decision not =
to use=20
them to evacuate the town, because he called for Greyhound busses so his =

constituents would be able to leave in style....&amp;nbsp; And why exactly =
was the=20
levee system neglected for the past 3 decades?&amp;nbsp; The Army Corps of =
Engineers=20
supposedly were stymied as to improving the system due to the KNOWLEDGE =
that=20
they would not survive a cat 3 'cane????&amp;nbsp; This was NOT a failure in =

DC.&amp;nbsp; What I learned from the Incident Command System class I took =
as a Fire=20
Department officer was that FEMA relies on the LOCAL GOV'T following =
their=20
predetermined emergency plan, which didn't happen.&amp;nbsp; That's the =
stuff that=20
keeps FEMA from being able to act.&amp;nbsp; Under the ICS model, every =
entity up to=20
the Feds has a predetermined function, within a specific chain of =
command.&amp;nbsp;=20
You can't break the chain, because of accountability issues.&amp;nbsp; =
&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;BR&gt;ERIC GIRONDA&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D&quot;PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px&quot;&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &amp;lt;&lt;A=20
href=3D&quot;mailto:<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&lt;/A&gt;&amp;gt; =
wrote in=20
message &lt;A=20
=
href=3D&quot;news:newscache$qe5cmi$kkf$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net" target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net</a>&quot;&gt;news:newscache$qe5cmi=
$kkf$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net" target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net</a>&lt;/A&gt;...&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;-------&amp;nbsp; snip ---------&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/DIV&gt;
&lt;DIV&gt;&lt;FONT face=3DArial size=3D2&gt;&lt;/FONT&gt;&lt;BR&gt;be an oversupply and the =
price will=20
crash - until that is, everyone with&lt;BR&gt;flooded&lt;BR&gt;out cars gets their =

insurance money and runs out and buys new ones which&lt;BR&gt;they then want =
to=20
drive all over the place. =
;-)&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;Ted&lt;/DIV&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;&lt;/BODY&gt;&lt;/HTML&gt;

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C5B57D.9CFBBC10--

Report this message

#78: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-10 23:21:20 by Warlock

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt; David wrote:
&gt;&gt; Expressing Bush is an idiot who lied and has killed countless American
&gt;&gt; soldiers so he can tell his Daddy &quot;Look Daddy, I got Saddam for you, Do
&gt;&gt; you forgive me for being an alcohilic cokehead?&quot; is totally wrong.
&gt;
&gt; Go back and read your sentence. You are saying that &quot;Expressing that Bush
&gt; is an idiot who...[did this and that]...is totally wrong&quot;. You're not
&gt; even writing logical sentences (besides what you're claiming being totally
&gt; FOS). You should be gellin', not yellin'.


it's humor. he's saying that the bush administration is so patently and
observably incompetent, corrupt and criminal, that it would be superfluous
for anybody outside of the administration to point it out. although
humorous, the problem with his logic is that it vastly overestimates the
intelligence of most americans.

i'll just keep slapping bumperstickers on my car. my fave right now is the
one that looks like a bush-cheney campaign sticker, but actually it reads,
&quot;Moron-Psycho 00-08.&quot;

i've had it on my car for several months and i've received several
middle-finger salutes as a result. i just raise my .357 sig-sauer in
return. funny how some of us &quot;tree-hugging libs&quot; pack heat. blows em away
when they discover it, figuratively speaking.

Report this message

#79: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 01:42:18 by Bill Putney

Warlock wrote:
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;
&gt;&gt;David wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Expressing Bush is an idiot who lied and has killed countless American
&gt;&gt;&gt;soldiers so he can tell his Daddy &quot;Look Daddy, I got Saddam for you, Do
&gt;&gt;&gt;you forgive me for being an alcohilic cokehead?&quot; is totally wrong.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Go back and read your sentence. You are saying that &quot;Expressing that Bush
&gt;&gt;is an idiot who...[did this and that]...is totally wrong&quot;. You're not
&gt;&gt;even writing logical sentences (besides what you're claiming being totally
&gt;&gt;FOS). You should be gellin', not yellin'.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; it's humor.

Most people trying to be humorous don't simultaneously give the
impression of simultaneously foaming at the mouth and speaking gibberish.

&gt; he's saying that the bush administration is so patently and
&gt; observably incompetent, corrupt and criminal, that it would be superfluous
&gt; for anybody outside of the administration to point it out.

Look at the lies he is using to make his point. Again, it comes off as
lunatic fringe. None of the stuff he is stating as facts are true. For
example &quot;The hell with freedom of expression.&quot; Based on what. You've
got nothing - and because of that, you won't come back with anything
honest if at all.

&gt; although
&gt; humorous, the problem with his logic is that it vastly overestimates the
&gt; intelligence of most americans.

Yeah - he's so intelligent he can't speak for himself and can't even
answer a direct question (which you also make no attempt to answer - but
it's understandable because - once again - you've got nothin' of
substance to answer with).

&gt; i'll just keep slapping bumperstickers on my car. my fave right now is the
&gt; one that looks like a bush-cheney campaign sticker, but actually it reads,
&gt; &quot;Moron-Psycho 00-08.&quot;
&gt;
&gt; i've had it on my car for several months and i've received several
&gt; middle-finger salutes as a result. i just raise my .357 sig-sauer in
&gt; return. funny how some of us &quot;tree-hugging libs&quot; pack heat. blows em away
&gt; when they discover it, figuratively speaking.

We're all impressed. But not in the way you imagine. I guess you and
Dave don't like them expressing themselves. Typcial libs. You want to
be able to say anything you want, but when anyone responds back in a
disapproving manner, we're suppressing your freedom of expression. But
- again - that and the ultra hyperbole is what is hurting the democrats
terribly.

I read an article by someone who was helping the New Orleans victims,
and was starting to help a woman who was hunting for some relatives, but
when the person writing the article saw a Bush bumper sticker on their
car, they drove off and left them. That's your free-thinking liberal
for you.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#80: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 05:45:43 by Don

&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:newscache$3ijjmi$rml$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt; a lot of snipage here&lt;
&gt;
&gt; Based on Bush's track record this term I think by the time his term is up
&gt; that
&gt; he will have pissed off the US general population so badly that they won't
&gt; be
&gt; voting Republican for another 20 years.
&gt;
&gt; Ted


Sounds good to me.

Report this message

#81: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 05:48:48 by Don

&quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:dft47d02ngj&#64;enews4.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dft47d02ngj&#64;enews4.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; What proof do you have that Katrina did not affect the gas prices?
&gt; Katrina
&gt; shut down all of the Gulf of Mexico oil production, which produces 1/3 of
&gt; the nations energy needs. 9 refineries were shut down for at least a week
&gt; and at present 6 refineries are not running. 2 are in the process of
&gt; starting up. 4 still have flood water in them and cannot begin to start
&gt; up
&gt; until repairs and clean up are completed. This equates to less gasoline
&gt; being produced and less gasoline means less supply for the same demand.
&gt; Supply and demand will set the price. Simple economics.
&gt;
&gt; Sarge


Ever watch C-Span? It's been on several times this past week.

Stay with the times dude.

&quot;Fox News&quot; is nothing but lies straight from the liars telling the lies over
there in the White House.

Report this message

#82: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 05:52:22 by R Steenerson

Hi,
I think it would be great to have a 600 mile range on a gas tank. I
have been driving a Taurus for the last 3 years and the range for city
driving is only 200 miles. The Taurus is a good car but, the most annoying
thing about it is that I need to watch the &quot;trick&quot; gas guage so closely.
Full is about a quarter inch past F. Empty, is when the needle is around
the quarter mark. The needle on half means there are about 3 gallons left.
People have asked me if I am sure about this and I am because even though I
have never run out, I have seen the unmistakeable signs of being close to
running out including sputters and the like.
The issue with being able to calculate a 600 mile range though would be
that it would need to rely on accurate MPG figures which are not always the
case. MPGs vary based on terrain, weather and other factors.


&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:newscache$wn2dmi$1kg$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt; &quot;me!&quot; &lt;me @ nowhere.com&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:6uZSe.155$<a href="mailto:nt1.88&#64;newssvr33.news.prodigy.com..." target="_blank">nt1.88&#64;newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...</a>
&gt; &gt; Thank you TED !!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; I don't like to see the little guy get screwed anymore than anyone else
&gt; &gt; here.... however.. if there is EVER to be any &quot;work&quot; on alternative
&gt; energy,
&gt; &gt; dino power has to get up there where the alternative people have a
chance
&gt; to
&gt; &gt; make a buck...( for the record Exxon stockholders voted against sinking
&gt; &gt; money into alternative energy) ... Sorry kiddies but when there's &quot;no
&gt; &gt; change&quot; (in something new) there isn't going to be any change or
&gt; motivation
&gt; &gt; to change.
&gt; &gt; .
&gt;
&gt; That is true, but consider also that once the initial, expensive R&amp;D has
&gt; been
&gt; paid for and these alternative energy industries are up and running
without
&gt; the need for government incentives/support/etc, if we don't see an
overall,
&gt; permanent decrease in the cost of energy, then really these alternative
&gt; energy
&gt; sources wern't worth developing.
&gt;
&gt; The goal of a &quot;solar powered car&quot; and any other kind of alternative energy
&gt; program powered car should be to be able to reduce the cost of powering
&gt; the car. It shouldn't be to just replace one system with another just
&gt; because
&gt; someone is enraptured with a different system. Otherwise we really ought
&gt; to stop bothering with screwing around with vehicle fuel and just
&gt; concentrate
&gt; on building plants that convert coal into gasoline, or convert biomass
into
&gt; gasoline, or some such.
&gt;
&gt; Consider that oil AKA hydrocarbons, originally came from solar-powered
&gt; plant material and solar-powered plankton growth, it should be possible
&gt; to use genetic engineering to make an organism that you input sunlight and
&gt; get oil out of.
&gt;
&gt; Ted
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#83: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 05:55:22 by Don

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dfqkot$gva$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;Snipped the bs&lt;
&gt;
&gt; Yeah yeah - heard it all before from the lunatic fringe.
&gt;
&gt; Bill Putney


So you actually listen to yourself?

Maybe if you'd pay more attention to what is going on in this country and
get off that Faux News, you'd learn a thing or two.

Report this message

#84: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 06:01:44 by Don

&quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:dft3mb02n3v&#64;enews4.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dft3mb02n3v&#64;enews4.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Learn the facts. The voting machines did work the idiots voting could not
&gt; vote properly. Unfortunately for you, popular vote does matter as much in
&gt; a
&gt; presidential election. Then again it could be to your benefit since if we
&gt; counted popular vote some politicians would never get elected because the
&gt; big cities would control the vote.
&gt;
&gt; By the way every recount showed Bush won.
&gt;
&gt; Sarge


Again, you need to learn the facts. Bush NEVER won a federal election. Only
in the recounts that favored bush did he win. And those were so mucked up
just to get those figures. Not to mention the illegal purge of legally
registered voters. And yes, the machines were faulty. Still are. If they
were so accurate, then why is it the republikan party refuses to allow a
paper trail added to all of the machines used?

Report this message

#85: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 06:03:18 by Don

&quot;Joe&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:Joe&#64;dontspam.net" target="_blank">Joe&#64;dontspam.net</a>&gt; wrote in message news:HoaUe.302$<a href="mailto:Ma.229&#64;fe07.lga..." target="_blank">Ma.229&#64;fe07.lga...</a>
&gt;
&gt; snip the bs&lt;
&gt;
&gt; And for pete's sake stop crossposting.


Sure, just tell me where the original post came from and where and when this
became cross posted?????????

Report this message

#86: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 06:41:40 by Don

&quot;R Steenerson&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:rsteenerson&#64;mn.rr.com" target="_blank">rsteenerson&#64;mn.rr.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:WRNUe.28005$<a href="mailto:mb4.19035&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">mb4.19035&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; Hi,
&gt; I think it would be great to have a 600 mile range on a gas tank. I
&gt; have been driving a Taurus for the last 3 years and the range for city
&gt; driving is only 200 miles. The Taurus is a good car but, the most
&gt; annoying
&gt; thing about it is that I need to watch the &quot;trick&quot; gas guage so closely.
&gt; Full is about a quarter inch past F. Empty, is when the needle is around
&gt; the quarter mark. The needle on half means there are about 3 gallons
&gt; left.
&gt; People have asked me if I am sure about this and I am because even though
&gt; I
&gt; have never run out, I have seen the unmistakeable signs of being close to
&gt; running out including sputters and the like.
&gt; The issue with being able to calculate a 600 mile range though would be
&gt; that it would need to rely on accurate MPG figures which are not always
&gt; the
&gt; case. MPGs vary based on terrain, weather and other factors.


I once had a fuel gage go out in my old Plymouth (not so) Reliant. I never
new how much gas I had but I always kept track of the mileage. I know the
way I drive a vehicle and I knew I could go so far before needing to fill
up. This went on for almost two years, spring, summer, autumn and winter, WI
to CA. Different conditions do mean different MPG but it can be compensated
for if one knows his vehicle.

I also think the original poster may have meant that a 600 MPG Rating would
have been under certain conditions. Look at any ad in a magazine where they
claim such and such MPG. There is always the disclaimer about conditions and
how you drive.

Report this message

#87: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 15:15:04 by ntotrr

&quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:AONUe.28003$<a href="mailto:mb4.13218&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">mb4.13218&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:dft47d02ngj&#64;enews4.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dft47d02ngj&#64;enews4.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; What proof do you have that Katrina did not affect the gas prices?
&gt;&gt; Katrina
&gt;&gt; shut down all of the Gulf of Mexico oil production, which produces 1/3 of
&gt;&gt; the nations energy needs. 9 refineries were shut down for at least a
&gt;&gt; week
&gt;&gt; and at present 6 refineries are not running. 2 are in the process of
&gt;&gt; starting up. 4 still have flood water in them and cannot begin to start
&gt;&gt; up
&gt;&gt; until repairs and clean up are completed. This equates to less gasoline
&gt;&gt; being produced and less gasoline means less supply for the same demand.
&gt;&gt; Supply and demand will set the price. Simple economics.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Sarge
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Ever watch C-Span? It's been on several times this past week.
&gt;
&gt; Stay with the times dude.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Fox News&quot; is nothing but lies straight from the liars telling the lies
&gt; over there in the White House.

A little more originalty than some regurgitated Al Franken lines woudld be
better.

Report this message

#88: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 17:01:55 by Bill Putney

R Steenerson wrote:

&gt; I think it would be great to have a 600 mile range on a gas tank. I
&gt; have been driving a Taurus for the last 3 years and the range for city
&gt; driving is only 200 miles.

You're asking for 600 miles city driving? So you want a 33 gallon tank?
I don't think you would be happy with that, and when full, your milage
would drop dut to the weight.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#89: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 17:09:06 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:

&gt; &quot;Sarge&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu" target="_blank">licker&#64;lickersacademy.edu</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:<a href="mailto:dft3mb02n3v&#64;enews4.newsguy.com..." target="_blank">dft3mb02n3v&#64;enews4.newsguy.com...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Learn the facts. The voting machines did work the idiots voting could not
&gt;&gt;vote properly. Unfortunately for you, popular vote does matter as much in
&gt;&gt;a
&gt;&gt;presidential election. Then again it could be to your benefit since if we
&gt;&gt;counted popular vote some politicians would never get elected because the
&gt;&gt;big cities would control the vote.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;By the way every recount showed Bush won.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Sarge
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Again, you need to learn the facts. Bush NEVER won a federal election. Only
&gt; in the recounts that favored bush did he win. And those were so mucked up
&gt; just to get those figures. Not to mention the illegal purge of legally
&gt; registered voters. And yes, the machines were faulty. Still are. If they
&gt; were so accurate, then why is it the republikan party refuses to allow a
&gt; paper trail added to all of the machines used?

.... and like I said you think that the lunar landing was faked and that
Bush prayed Katrina into being and hitting New Orleans. Again - as long
as we have people like you speaking publicly on behalf of the libs, the
Democrat pary has an uphill battle. All we conservatives ask is that
you keep up the good work.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#90: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 17:23:51 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:

&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dfqkot$gva$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Snipped the bs&lt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Yeah yeah - heard it all before from the lunatic fringe.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Bill Putney
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; So you actually listen to yourself?
&gt;
&gt; Maybe if you'd pay more attention to what is going on in this country and
&gt; get off that Faux News, you'd learn a thing or two.

So I was right. You won't answer specific questions because the truth
isn't what you want to hear, nor is it in you.

Specifically you will not address if SH had WMDs? How were thousands of
Kurds killed in Iraq? How many times did SH invade Kuwait? What did
Bill Clinton say about SH and what we should do about him? Was the UN
resoution unanymous? Did SH support terrorism by offering families of
suicide bombers rewards? Did SH support Al Quida?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#91: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 23:41:34 by Don

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dg1i66$au0$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; So I was right.

Actuall, you were wrong again.

&gt;You won't answer specific questions because the truth isn't what you want
&gt;to hear, nor is it in you.

I'll answer your questions. You may not like hearing the truth, but read on.

&gt; Specifically you will not address if SH had WMDs?

Absolutely not. At least not after he was forced to get rid of them after
daddy bush attacked in '91. Haven't you been listening to the truth? Hans
Blix said no before the war in started in '03 and all of the intelligence
reports since have said he did not have them. Haven't heard of the &quot;Downing
Street Memo's&quot; either have you. Proof your boy cooked the books to gain
support for his illegal oil grab.

&gt;How were thousands of Kurds killed in Iraq?

With WMD supplied to him by Reagan/Bush/Rummsfeld. Again, those were no
longer in his possession in '03.

&gt;How many times did SH invade Kuwait?

Once. And that was with the permission of the first bush administration.

&gt;What did Bill Clinton say about SH and what we should do about him?

He said the UN resolutions were working during his time in office and Saddam
wasn't threatening anybody except the British and US warplanes flying over
his soverign country on a daily basis.

&gt;Was the UN resoution unanymous?

It was unanymous that bush NOT attack Iraq.

&gt;Did SH support terrorism by offering families of suicide bombers rewards?

I can't prove otherwise and neither can you. It has been reported to be so,
but then we were also told he had WMD which you know was proven fasle.

Did SH support Al Quida?

No. Saddam was and possibly still is a secular Muslim. Al Quaida is run by
the person who trully attacked this country four years ago, Osama been
Forgotten. Osama was not in cahoots with Sadam. In fact he hated Sadam
because of his secular views. To Osama, Sadam was an infedel for not
following Islam like Osama and his fundamentalists want.

Report this message

#92: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-11 23:48:04 by Don

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dg1hai$act$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; ... and like I said you think that the lunar landing was faked and that
&gt; Bush prayed Katrina into being and hitting New Orleans. Again - as long
&gt; as we have people like you speaking publicly on behalf of the libs, the
&gt; Democrat pary has an uphill battle. All we conservatives ask is that you
&gt; keep up the good work.
&gt;
&gt; Bill Putney
&gt;


I really don't care if the lunar landing was faked.

I don't think bush or any religious fanatic could pray any hurricane into
existence, much less where it's going to hit.

I only believe in facts. Not the idiotic ideas you have of us liberals.

Report this message

#93: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 00:08:27 by Don

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dg1hai$act$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; ... and like I said you think that the lunar landing was faked and that
&gt; Bush prayed Katrina into being and hitting New Orleans. Again - as long
&gt; as we have people like you speaking publicly on behalf of the libs, the
&gt; Democrat pary has an uphill battle. All we conservatives ask is that you
&gt; keep up the good work.
&gt;
&gt; Bill Putney



Bill, are you a religious man? Are you a so-called christian?

If so, just how in the hell do you think you're going to get into heaven by
badmouthing liberals? Remember, jesus was the biggest liberal of them all.

Report this message

#94: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 00:34:19 by ntotrr

&quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:vV1Ve.48931$<a href="mailto:32.22602&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">32.22602&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dg1hai$act$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; ... and like I said you think that the lunar landing was faked and that
&gt;&gt; Bush prayed Katrina into being and hitting New Orleans. Again - as long
&gt;&gt; as we have people like you speaking publicly on behalf of the libs, the
&gt;&gt; Democrat pary has an uphill battle. All we conservatives ask is that you
&gt;&gt; keep up the good work.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; Bill Putney
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Bill, are you a religious man? Are you a so-called christian?
&gt;
&gt; If so, just how in the hell do you think you're going to get into heaven
&gt; by badmouthing liberals? Remember, jesus was the biggest liberal of them
&gt; all.

Please not this tripe. You're probably one of those who claim Joseph and
Mary were homeless too when Jesus was born.

Report this message

#95: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 01:02:31 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dg1i66$au0$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;So I was right.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Actuall, you were wrong again.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;You won't answer specific questions because the truth isn't what you want
&gt;&gt;to hear, nor is it in you.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I'll answer your questions. You may not like hearing the truth, but read on.

I love hearing the truth.

&gt;&gt;Specifically you will not address if SH had WMDs?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Absolutely not. At least not after he was forced to get rid of them after
&gt; daddy bush attacked in '91. Haven't you been listening to the truth? Hans
&gt; Blix said no before the war in started in '03 and all of the intelligence
&gt; reports since have said he did not have them. Haven't heard of the &quot;Downing
&gt; Street Memo's&quot; either have you. Proof your boy cooked the books to gain
&gt; support for his illegal oil grab.

Per the UN, he was required to account for the weapons that were on the
books, and he never did.

&gt;&gt;How were thousands of Kurds killed in Iraq?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; With WMD supplied to him by Reagan/Bush/Rummsfeld. Again, those were no
&gt; longer in his possession in '03.

But there were more WMD's than that.

&gt;&gt;How many times did SH invade Kuwait?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Once. And that was with the permission of the first bush administration.

Like I say - keep up the lunacy. Only makes us look good.

&gt;&gt;What did Bill Clinton say about SH and what we should do about him?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; He said the UN resolutions were working during his time in office and Saddam
&gt; wasn't threatening anybody except the British and US warplanes flying over
&gt; his soverign country on a daily basis.

No - actually WJC said that Sadam needed to be removed from power.
Where have *you* been?

&gt;&gt;Was the UN resoution unanymous?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; It was unanymous that bush NOT attack Iraq.

He said, making it up as he wnet along.

&gt;&gt;Did SH support terrorism by offering families of suicide bombers rewards?
&gt;
&gt; I can't prove otherwise and neither can you. It has been reported to be so,
&gt; but then we were also told he had WMD which you know was proven fasle.

Yes - provable. Non-sequitur.

Re: WMD's - as I said, he was required by the UN to account for them and
couldn't. But you will deny that I'm sure, or thow in another non-sequitur.

&gt; Did SH support Al Quida?
&gt;
&gt; No. Saddam was and possibly still is a secular Muslim. Al Quaida is run by
&gt; the person who trully attacked this country four years ago, Osama been
&gt; Forgotten. Osama was not in cahoots with Sadam. In fact he hated Sadam
&gt; because of his secular views. To Osama, Sadam was an infedel for not
&gt; following Islam like Osama and his fundamentalists want.

Yes - provided training facilities and assylum. &quot;Enemy of my enemy...&quot;
kind of thing.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#96: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 01:05:12 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:

&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dg1hai$act$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;... and like I said you think that the lunar landing was faked and that
&gt;&gt;Bush prayed Katrina into being and hitting New Orleans. Again - as long
&gt;&gt;as we have people like you speaking publicly on behalf of the libs, the
&gt;&gt;Democrat pary has an uphill battle. All we conservatives ask is that you
&gt;&gt;keep up the good work.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Bill Putney
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Bill, are you a religious man? Are you a so-called christian?
&gt;
&gt; If so, just how in the hell do you think you're going to get into heaven by
&gt; badmouthing liberals? Remember, jesus was the biggest liberal of them all.

You know nothing of true Christianity if you think not badmouthing
liberals will get you into heaven. Sorry - but that's not the criteria.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#97: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 01:43:58 by Warlock

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt; Most people trying to be humorous don't simultaneously give the impression
&gt; of simultaneously foaming at the mouth and speaking gibberish.


only been hanging out in automotive-related newsgroups, huh? if you
consider his postings to be frothy, you have been extremely sheltered.


&gt; Based on what. You've got nothing - and because of that, you won't come
&gt; back with anything honest if at all.

i won't speak to the issue of freedom of expression, but in regard to
virtually everything else -- the war in iraq, the economy, immigration,
irresponsible tax cuts and while ballooning the deficit, the pathetic
response to hurricane katrina, this administration is nothing short of
criminal. as the saying goes, &quot;if you're not outraged, you're not paying
attention.&quot; i would consider it frivolous to take anybody by the hand and
lead them to the mountains of evidence regarding this administration's
blunders, lies and malfeasance. anybody who doesn't realize what's
happening is either wilfully blind or woefully stupid.


&gt; Yeah - he's so intelligent he can't speak for himself and can't even
&gt; answer a direct question (which you also make no attempt to answer - but
&gt; it's understandable because - once again - you've got nothin' of substance
&gt; to answer with).

what was the question? i was simply responding to your apparent lack of
humor.

&gt;
&gt; We're all impressed. But not in the way you imagine. I guess you and
&gt; Dave don't like them expressing themselves.

they can express themselves all they like; but it's been my experience that
rabid bush-backers are your typical &quot;crash beer can on forehead, thump your
chest, kill em all and let my non-existent god sort it out&quot; kinda guys.
they wear buffalo-check flannel sweaters, bad haircuts and have a vocabulary
somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 words. i consider it to be good form to
let them know that any bullying behavior on their part will be met with the
reduction of their head to a pulpy and bloody mass. they understand that.
other than that, they can express away.



Typcial libs. You want to
&gt; be able to say anything you want, but when anyone responds back in a
&gt; disapproving manner, we're suppressing your freedom of expression. But -
&gt; again - that and the ultra hyperbole is what is hurting the democrats
&gt; terribly.
&gt;
&gt; I read an article by someone who was helping the New Orleans victims, and
&gt; was starting to help a woman who was hunting for some relatives, but when
&gt; the person writing the article saw a Bush bumper sticker on their car,
&gt; they drove off and left them. That's your free-thinking liberal for you.

i'd do the same. i don't help the walking dead.



&gt;
&gt; Bill Putney
&gt; (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
&gt; with the letter 'x')

Report this message

#98: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 03:03:28 by Don

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dg2d27$n05$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I love hearing the truth.

By your replies, you wouldn't know it if it jumped up and bit you in your
ass.

&gt; Per the UN, he was required to account for the weapons that were on the
&gt; books, and he never did.

Yes, yes. Just as bush said. Tell me, how was Sadam supposed to prove he
didn't have what he didn't have? That is like saying, show me you have
something in your hand when you have nothing in your hand. It's all a play
on words to make Sadam look guilty to the imbeciles that follow bush's line
of thinking.

&gt; But there were more WMD's than that.

Where. Hiding in his underwear? Sadam had none. End of story.

&gt; Like I say - keep up the lunacy. Only makes us look good.

I guess you're gonna try telling me Sadam invaded Kuwait 5000 times in the
last 100 years? You are insane.

&gt; No - actually WJC said that Sadam needed to be removed from power. Where
&gt; have *you* been?

Clinton never said that.

&gt; He said, making it up as he wnet along.

Go back and check your history. Don't you remember you fools putting down
the French because they voted against bush's war? So did the Germans, the
Russians and the Chineese. All members of the UN Security Council. Jeez. And
I thought you knew some facts.

&gt; Yes - provable. Non-sequitur.

Like I said. It's not provable.

&gt; Re: WMD's - as I said, he was required by the UN to account for them and
&gt; couldn't. But you will deny that I'm sure, or thow in another
&gt; non-sequitur.

As I said above, how was he supposed to prove the glass was empty when there
was nothing inside to show?

&gt; Yes - provided training facilities and assylum. &quot;Enemy of my enemy...&quot;
&gt; kind of thing.

Bullshit. There were never any Al Quaida in Iraq before bush got his war
hardon and made a mess of everything getting 1896 American service men and
women killed because he lied. Even that Zarqauwi (spelling?) dude said that
he has just become a follower of Al Quaida, and that was after the war
started. Didn't Fox News tell you that? I guess not. They won't tell you the
truth if it makes their imbecile look bad.

Report this message

#99: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 03:07:03 by Don

&quot;Peter A. Stavrakoglou&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ntotrr&#64;optonline.net" target="_blank">ntotrr&#64;optonline.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:Gh2Ve.136$<a href="mailto:IC3.26&#64;fe12.lga..." target="_blank">IC3.26&#64;fe12.lga...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Please not this tripe. You're probably one of those who claim Joseph and
&gt; Mary were homeless too when Jesus was born.


Why would anyone really care???????????????

Report this message

#100: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 03:16:27 by Warlock

&quot;Peter A. Stavrakoglou&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ntotrr&#64;optonline.net" target="_blank">ntotrr&#64;optonline.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt; &quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:vV1Ve.48931$<a href="mailto:32.22602&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com..." target="_blank">32.22602&#64;tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...</a>
&gt;&gt; Bill, are you a religious man? Are you a so-called christian?
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt; If so, just how in the hell do you think you're going to get into heaven
&gt;&gt; by badmouthing liberals? Remember, jesus was the biggest liberal of them
&gt;&gt; all.
&gt;
&gt; Please not this tripe.

i agree. all this tripe about some comic book hero for adults floating
around the sky and giving a damn about a buncha bald primates is just plain
pathetic.


&gt; You're probably one of those who claim Joseph and Mary were homeless too
&gt; when Jesus was born.
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#101: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 03:18:39 by Don

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dg2d77$n05$<a href="mailto:2&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">2&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; You know nothing of true Christianity if you think not badmouthing
&gt; liberals will get you into heaven. Sorry - but that's not the criteria.


I do know that those who claim to be christians are worse than Muslims.
Those who profess christ as lord, go around pushing their religion on
everyone else starting wars all over this planet. Remember your bush boy
even called his war against the Muslims &quot;The Crusades&quot; until he was reminded
of what that meant many years ago and it would not look good using that term
now.

I also know that christians are the biggest bunch of hypocrites on the
planet. If half of them would even read the bible (if even half of those
could read) they would learn that jesus said &quot;render unto Caesar that which
is Caesars.&quot; That doesn't only mean to pay your taxes (which too many
so-called christians fail to do) but to follow the laws of the land which
way to many of you fail to do.

When asked by the King of Jordan why he was attacking Iraq, bush said;
&quot;Because god told me to.&quot; Well, there was a woman down in Texas (imagine
that) who bashed in her kids skulls for the same reason.

The whole idea of an invisible cloud being is too outrageous for me. I
believe in facts. Not the fallacies of raving lunatics.

Report this message

#102: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 03:36:17 by Don

Your bush boy isn't liked by too many of you anymore.

Better get wise and jump ship before you're the only fool left.

====================================
President's Approval Rating Dips Below 40
By Will Lester
The Associated Press
Saturday 10 September 2005

President Bush's job approval has dipped below 40 percent for the first
time in the AP-Ipsos poll, reflecting widespread doubts about his handling
of gasoline prices and the response to Hurricane Katrina.

Nearly four years after Bush's job approval soared into the 80s after
the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, Bush was at 39 percent job approval
in an AP-Ipsos poll taken this week. That's the lowest since the the poll
was started in December 2003.

The public's view of the nation's direction has grown increasingly
negative as well, with nearly two-thirds now saying the country is heading
down the wrong track.

Report this message

#103: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 03:41:29 by Don

Where Is Osama bin Laden?

It's the fourth anniversary of September 11 - and Osama bin Laden is still
at large.

Your fool in the White House has had 1,461 days and still no sign of Osama.

I wonder why that is?

Because your boy stupid is too busy with his illegal oil grab in the wrong
place?

Report this message

#104: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 04:40:56 by Don

Just a reminder of what you support by supporting that mindless wonder you
keep praising.

FEMA won't accept Amtrak's help in evacuations
FEMA turns back Wal-Mart supply trucks
FEMA prevents Coast Guard from delivering diesel fuel
FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
FEMA fails to utilize Navy ship with 600-bed hospital on board
FEMA to Chicago: Send just one truck
FEMA turns away generators
FEMA: &quot;First Responders Urged Not To Respond&quot;

And take a good look at that last one. That is straight from the FEMA
website.

By supporting bush, you support a disaster.

Report this message

#105: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 04:46:40 by Don

Sorry, the links didn't make it. Here they are.

&gt;Just a reminder of what you support by supporting that mindless wonder you
&gt;keep praising.


&gt; FEMA won't accept Amtrak's help in evacuations
<a href="http://news.ft.com/cms/s/84aa35cc-1da8-11da-b40b-00000e2511c8.html" target="_blank"> http://news.ft.com/cms/s/84aa35cc-1da8-11da-b40b-00000e2511c 8.html</a>
&gt; FEMA turns back Wal-Mart supply trucks
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html" target="_blank"> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/0 5blame.html</a>
&gt; FEMA prevents Coast Guard from delivering diesel fuel
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html" target="_blank"> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/0 5blame.html</a>
&gt; FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food
<a href="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm" target="_blank">http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm</a>
&gt; FEMA fails to utilize Navy ship with 600-bed hospital on board
<a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509040369sep04,1,4144825.story?ctrack=1&amp;cset=true" target="_blank"> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050904036 9sep04,1,4144825.story?ctrack=1&amp;cset=true</a>
&gt; FEMA to Chicago: Send just one truck
<a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed" target="_blank"> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2 011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed</a>
&gt; FEMA turns away generators
<a href="http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html" target="_blank">http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html</a>
&gt; FEMA: &quot;First Responders Urged Not To Respond&quot;
<a href="http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470" target="_blank">http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470</a>


&gt; And take a good look at that last one. That is straight from the FEMA
&gt; website.
&gt;
&gt; By supporting bush, you support a disaster.

Report this message

#106: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 05:03:00 by Warlock

&quot;Peter A. Stavrakoglou&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:ntotrr&#64;optonline.net" target="_blank">ntotrr&#64;optonline.net</a>&gt; wrote
&gt;&gt; A little more originalty than some regurgitated Al Franken lines woudld
&gt;&gt; be better.
&gt;
&gt; Here's Bill Mahr's closing bit the other night:
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Mr. President, this job can't be fun for you any more. There's no
&gt; more money to spend--you used up all of that. You can't start another
&gt; war because you used up the army. And now, darn the luck, the rest of
&gt; your term has become the Bush family nightmare: helping poor people.
&gt; Listen to your Mom. The cupboard's bare, the credit cards maxed out.
&gt; No one's speaking to you. Mission accomplished.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Now it's time to do what you've always done best: lose interest
&gt; and walk away. Like you did with your military service and the oil
&gt; company and the baseball team. It's time. Time to move on and try the
&gt; next fantasy job. How about cowboy or space man? Now I know what
&gt; you're saying: there's so many other things that you as President
&gt; could involve yourself in. Please don't. I know, I know. There's a
&gt; lot left to do. There's a war with Venezuela. Eliminating the sales
&gt; tax on yachts. Turning the space program over to the church. And
&gt; Social Security to Fannie Mae. Giving embryos the vote.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;But, Sir, none of that is going to happen now. Why? Because you
&gt; govern like Billy Joel drives. You've performed so poorly I'm
&gt; surprised that you haven't given yourself a medal. You're a
&gt; catastrophe that walks like a man. Herbert Hoover was a shitty
&gt; president, but even he never conceded an entire city to rising water
&gt; and snakes.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;On your watch, we've lost almost all of our allies, the surplus,
&gt; four airliners, two trade centers, a piece of the Pentagon and the
&gt; City of New Orleans. Maybe you're just not lucky. I'm not saying you
&gt; don't love this country. I'm just wondering how much worse it could
&gt; be if you were on the other side.
&gt;
&gt; &quot;So, yes, God does speak to you. What he is saying is: 'Take a
&gt; hint.' &quot;

Report this message

#107: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 05:35:25 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dg2d27$n05$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;I love hearing the truth.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; By your replies, you wouldn't know it if it jumped up and bit you in your
&gt; ass.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Per the UN, he was required to account for the weapons that were on the
&gt;&gt;books, and he never did.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Yes, yes. Just as bush said. Tell me, how was Sadam supposed to prove he
&gt; didn't have what he didn't have? That is like saying, show me you have
&gt; something in your hand when you have nothing in your hand. It's all a play
&gt; on words to make Sadam look guilty to the imbeciles that follow bush's line
&gt; of thinking.

We're not talking about inventorying boxes of cracker jacks here.

You need to read up on the law of the conservation of mass. Here's a
word problem: If he had x amount of WMD's at some point, and he used y,
then, by the law of the conservation of mass, he should have or be
able to account for x-y. Like I said, it's not boxes of cracker jacks
that are relatively unimportant, we're talking about WMD's.

Take a look at: <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp</a> and
<a href="http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/bushlied.htm" target="_blank">http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/bushlied.htm</a>

&gt;&gt;But there were more WMD's than that.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Where. Hiding in his underwear? Sadam had none. End of story.

See above re: the law of the conservation of mass, and snopes.com and
truthorfiction.com links about what the Dems, including what both
Clintons, Kerry, and Robert &quot;Sheets&quot; Byrd were saying - not only after
Clinton, but during Clinton's admin. Kind of hard for Bush to gen up
false intel during the Clinton admin,. dontcha think?

&gt;&gt;Like I say - keep up the lunacy. Only makes us look good.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I guess you're gonna try telling me Sadam invaded Kuwait 5000 times in the
&gt; last 100 years? You are insane.

Uh - whatever.

&gt;&gt;No - actually WJC said that Sadam needed to be removed from power. Where
&gt;&gt;have *you* been?
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Clinton never said that.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;He said, making it up as he went along.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Go back and check your history. Don't you remember you fools putting down
&gt; the French because they voted against bush's war? So did the Germans, the
&gt; Russians and the Chineese. All members of the UN Security Council. Jeez. And
&gt; I thought you knew some facts.

Yes - the French and Russians were trying to conceal their cashing in on
the Oil for Food programs. They didn't want to mess up the good thing
they had going with Saddam.

&gt;&gt;Yes - provable. Non-sequitur.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Like I said. It's not provable.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Re: WMD's - as I said, he was required by the UN to account for them and
&gt;&gt;couldn't. But you will deny that I'm sure, or thow in another
&gt;&gt;non-sequitur.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; As I said above, how was he supposed to prove the glass was empty when there
&gt; was nothing inside to show?

Ummm - by inventory records. The UN as well as Dems in Congress sure
seemed to think he should have been able to. At the very best, he was a
victim of his own sloppy record keeping.

&gt;&gt;Yes - provided training facilities and assylum. &quot;Enemy of my enemy...&quot;
&gt;&gt;kind of thing.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Bullshit. There were never any Al Quaida in Iraq before bush got his war
&gt; hardon and made a mess of everything getting 1896 American service men and
&gt; women killed because he lied. Even that Zarqauwi (spelling?) dude said that
&gt; he has just become a follower of Al Quaida, and that was after the war
&gt; started. Didn't Fox News tell you that? I guess not. They won't tell you the
&gt; truth if it makes their imbecile look bad.

From the snopes page - a quote of H. Clinton: &quot;&quot;In the four years since
the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has
worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile
delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid,
comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is
clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to
increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will
keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.&quot;
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

The Al Qaida connection has been re-proven since our intel flaws have
been brought to light.

Also - read a book called &quot;The Third Terrorist&quot; by Jayna Davis.
Documents thoroughly Sadam's conection to the OK City bombing.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#108: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 10:55:24 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dg2t1s$12g$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt; We're not talking about inventorying boxes of cracker jacks here.
&gt;
&gt; You need to read up on the law of the conservation of mass. Here's a
&gt; word problem: If he had x amount of WMD's at some point, and he used y,
&gt; then, by the law of the conservation of mass, he should have or be
&gt; able to account for x-y. Like I said, it's not boxes of cracker jacks
&gt; that are relatively unimportant, we're talking about WMD's.
&gt;
&gt; Take a look at: <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp</a> and
&gt; <a href="http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/bushlied.htm" target="_blank">http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/bushlied.htm</a>
&gt;

Bill, give it a rest.

The US Army has been all over Iraq looking for WMD. You know damn well
that the Republicans have been praying daily to God asking for the army to
find bombs because if no WMD's are discovered by 2008 that fact will be
hammered over and over and they are going to take a pretty serious political
loss for it.

The army found Saddam, and his 2 psychotic sons, and it's a lot easier to
hid a person, who can easily move from place to place, than a bomb which
can be found by a Geiger counter.

Saddam didn't have nukes by the time of the invasion, simple as that. About
the most you could possibly argue is he snuck them into Syria sometime
before the war, but very few are going to believe it.

And as for biological WMD's or nerve gas or some other scenario, those
simply aren't very good WMD's. Gas dissapates and if your enemy knows
your going to use it, they can easily take precautions. And other
biological
agents like germ warfare kill indiscriminitely and you could easily cause
a plague that would wipe out your own people too, they are very unstable
weapons. And frankly, none of those have the sheer phychological value
of a nuke - if gas or germ warfare was so good, why didn't we use them
on Hiroshima instead of a nuke?

Saddam was a great bluffer in his day, and most of the rumors of Iraq
having WMDs were undoubtedly plants designed to scare his neighbors.

Anyway, as I've observed over and over again, there were a lot of far
more valid reasons to invade Iraq than WMDs. Such as the government
there routinely using torture. Why are people so squeamish about
the US going in to a country and blowing away psychotic rulers? Do
Americans think it's a good thing to leave people like this up and in
operation? Do they really think any other countries are going to step
in and put a stop to it?

&gt;
&gt; From the snopes page - a quote of H. Clinton: &quot;&quot;In the four years since
&gt; the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has
&gt; worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile
&gt; delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid,
&gt; comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is
&gt; clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to
&gt; increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will
&gt; keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.&quot;
&gt; Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
&gt;
&gt; The Al Qaida connection has been re-proven since our intel flaws have
&gt; been brought to light.
&gt;

Considering that Al Qaida has a lot of people who are probably members of
other terrorist organizations, it would he extremely unusual if among all
the criminals that Saddam helped out, that none of them happened to be
part of Al Qaida. But that does not mean that there were any high-level
connections between Saddam's government and Al Quaida.

The problem with the Iraq war is that it should have been OVER a long time
ago. It was frankly disrespectful of the Republican-controlled congress to
not
issue a formal declaration of war against Iraq, and to allow Bush unlimited
time to deploy the Army in there. That is NOT what the US Constitution
says is allowable and I thought you conservatives were big supporters of
the Constitution. It is also disrespectful of Bush to make such an early
declaration of the end of hostilities there when soldiers are still getting
killed. If the war is over, then the US Army should LEAVE. And it is
a crime that there's been such a lack of basics like Kevlar boots, which
keep soldier's feet from being blown off by mines, and a lack of hardened
HumVees - there's only one company in the country that retrofits them and
they are way, way behind. When soldiers are welding scrap metal to
vehicles in Iraq because some bean counter in the Pentagon is too
busy playing politics, that person should be in the front lines not behind a
desk! And this business of pulling in National Guard - if Bush wants to
fight a war and there's not enough soldiers, then he should have activated
the draft - otherwise why the hell are we still to this day registering kids
for Selective Service. What a waste of money - they claim that they need
a S.S. bureau in case of a draft - but when there's a lack of soldiers they
don't turn on the draft!!!

Bush has run the Iraq war in the most half-assed way imaginable, just
like he's running FEMA and the rest of the bureaus in the Executive
branch. That is the problem.

Ted

Report this message

#109: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 12:26:29 by Bill Putney

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dg2t1s$12g$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;We're not talking about inventorying boxes of cracker jacks here.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;You need to read up on the law of the conservation of mass. Here's a
&gt;&gt;word problem: If he had x amount of WMD's at some point, and he used y,
&gt;&gt; then, by the law of the conservation of mass, he should have or be
&gt;&gt;able to account for x-y. Like I said, it's not boxes of cracker jacks
&gt;&gt;that are relatively unimportant, we're talking about WMD's.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Take a look at: <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp</a> and
&gt;&gt;<a href="http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/bushlied.htm" target="_blank">http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/bushlied.htm</a>
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Bill, give it a rest.

I don't at all disagree with much (not all) of what you said. Some
things are black, some things are gray, some things are white. When
people say that something is one when it is the other, I may choose to
speak out. You really ought to read that book by Jayna Davis (&quot;The
Third Terrorist&quot;) about the OK City bombing. It truly does document
that Sadam sent some of his Republican Guard boys over here to assist in
that operation (though the training that our lily whites got was in the
Philipines). It also clearly documents how screwed up our FBI was at
the time - clearly an intentional cover up from above of the facts that
would have blown the top off of that whole thing. Senator Spector was
part of the coverup.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#110: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 12:31:00 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:

&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dg2d77$n05$<a href="mailto:2&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">2&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;You know nothing of true Christianity if you think not badmouthing
&gt;&gt;liberals will get you into heaven. Sorry - but that's not the criteria.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; I do know that those who claim to be christians are worse than Muslims.
&gt; Those who profess christ as lord, go around pushing their religion on
&gt; everyone else starting wars all over this planet...

My my. You are delusional.


&gt; I also know that christians are the biggest bunch of hypocrites on the
&gt; planet. If half of them would even read the bible (if even half of those
&gt; could read) they would learn that jesus said &quot;render unto Caesar that which
&gt; is Caesars.&quot; That doesn't only mean to pay your taxes (which too many
&gt; so-called christians fail to do) but to follow the laws of the land which
&gt; way to many of you fail to do.

But of course you don't let what people do afffect your feelings about God.

&gt; When asked by the King of Jordan why he was attacking Iraq, bush said;
&gt; &quot;Because god told me to.&quot; Well, there was a woman down in Texas (imagine
&gt; that) who bashed in her kids skulls for the same reason.
&gt;
&gt; The whole idea of an invisible cloud being is too outrageous for me. I
&gt; believe in facts. Not the fallacies of raving lunatics.

That's fine. Each of us will see the consequences (good or bad) of our
beliefs. Isn't it great how a loving God gave us all freedom of will.
But you probably hold him in contempt even for that.

Can we cut it off here?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#111: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 16:25:53 by Mike Hunter

It seems only in your convoluted way of determine facts from rumor and
distortion, is it a problem.


&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message &gt;

Bush has run the Iraq war in the most half-assed way imaginable, just
&gt; like he's running FEMA and the rest of the bureaus in the Executive
&gt; branch. That is the problem.
&gt;
&gt; Ted
&gt;
&gt;

Report this message

#112: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-12 18:40:47 by David Starr

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 01:36:17 GMT, &quot;Don&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nunya&#64;myhouse.com" target="_blank">nunya&#64;myhouse.com</a>&gt; wrote:

&gt;Your bush boy isn't liked by too many of you anymore.
&gt;
&gt;Better get wise and jump ship before you're the only fool left.
&gt;
&gt;====================================
&gt;President's Approval Rating Dips Below 40

So, you only support front-runners?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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#113: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-13 00:50:01 by John Horner

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

&gt;
&gt; Saddam was a great bluffer in his day, and most of the rumors of Iraq
&gt; having WMDs were undoubtedly plants designed to scare his neighbors.

Yep, I think that is a large part of what happened. Saddam wanted
people to think he had such weapons and managed to provide the
justification for invasion by doing so. His bluff got called.

IMO, the &quot;problem&quot; is that the modern US is not at all geared up for
playing the army of occupation role and is making a hash of it. Of
course if our country and military were programmed to be effective
conquerors and occupiers then there would be an even bigger set of problems!

John

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#114: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-13 02:15:40 by Bill Putney

Don wrote:

&gt; ...When asked by the King of Jordan why he was attacking Iraq, bush said;
&gt; &quot;Because god told me to.&quot;...

Nice try. Neither Snopes nor www.truthorfiction.com document that -
that's the kind of thing they would if it were true. Please cite a
credible source (Randi Rhodes or Al Franken don't count).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#115: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-15 02:49:06 by Bill Putney

Bill Putney wrote:
&gt; Don wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; ...When asked by the King of Jordan why he was attacking Iraq, bush
&gt;&gt; said; &quot;Because god told me to.&quot;...
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Nice try. Neither Snopes nor www.truthorfiction.com document that -
&gt; that's the kind of thing they would if it were true. Please cite a
&gt; credible source (Randi Rhodes or Al Franken don't count).

Yep - you were lying.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#116: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-15 11:14:11 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dgaghs$u03$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; Bill Putney wrote:
&gt; &gt; Don wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt; ...When asked by the King of Jordan why he was attacking Iraq, bush
&gt; &gt;&gt; said; &quot;Because god told me to.&quot;...
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Nice try. Neither Snopes nor www.truthorfiction.com document that -
&gt; &gt; that's the kind of thing they would if it were true. Please cite a
&gt; &gt; credible source (Randi Rhodes or Al Franken don't count).
&gt;
&gt; Yep - you were lying.
&gt;

Not so fast Bill.

That was reported in Ha'aretz back in June 2003. The Washington Post
subsequently
dug up the source of this. Bush didn't perhaps say these exact words but he
did
say something along these lines - the White House has never denied any of
this, see:

<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37944-2003Jun26?language=printer" target="_blank"> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37944-2003Jun26?la nguage=printer</a>

And this has been collaborated by a number of witnesses. While Bush maybe
didn't
say &quot;God made me do it&quot; he positively did intend to communicate that he felt
divinely
inspired to attack Iraq.

Now whether Bush actually believes this or he was just posturing to a bunch
of
governments who are basically institutionalized government-controlled
religion, that
is left to the reader to decide.

However Bush's State of the Union speech claiming the &quot;Axis of Evil&quot; well
that's
pretty close to religious terminology I think. If Bush isn't religious he
is skirting
it very closely. And Bush has made it clear that he is personally a
religious person.

Don't get me wrong I think that there's nothing wrong with a religious
person
running the government. There's plenty of religious people who are deeply
spiritual
or have a strong relationship with God, who are very clear on what the
separation
of Church and State is all about. In fact a religious person has far more
to lose if the
state gets involved in religion since in a twinkling a different religious
faction can grab
power and now you have persecutions and the Inquisition all over again.
However I
and many people are very concerned that Bush does not clearly understand
this.

Bush could be the strongest constitutional supporter there is, but if he
opens the
door to state-sponsored religion just a crack, such as was done with the
school
voucher program, and the government/church charity initative, there's a lot
more
rabid religious nutcases in the Republican party who are going to be around
long after
he's gone, and they will keep working away at that crack until one day they
will
have taken over. And God help us if that happens.

Ted

Report this message

#117: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-15 12:24:50 by Bill Putney

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dgaghs$u03$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Bill Putney wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Don wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;...When asked by the King of Jordan why he was attacking Iraq, bush
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;said; &quot;Because god told me to.&quot;...
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Nice try. Neither Snopes nor www.truthorfiction.com document that -
&gt;&gt;&gt;that's the kind of thing they would if it were true. Please cite a
&gt;&gt;&gt;credible source (Randi Rhodes or Al Franken don't count).
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;Yep - you were lying.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Not so fast Bill.
&gt;
&gt; That was reported in Ha'aretz back in June 2003. The Washington Post
&gt; subsequently

(1) Bush never said anything like that to the King of Jordan.
(2) The &quot;quote&quot; that is cited is not a *quote* at all. Whatever it was
he said was heresay that even if he said anything remotely like it went
thru two translations.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#118: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-15 12:36:39 by Bill Putney

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:


&gt; ...opens the
&gt; door to state-sponsored religion just a crack, such as was done with the
&gt; school
&gt; voucher program, and the government/church charity initative,...

You would probably disagree, but please tell me how school vouchers
equally available to public and secular, Christian, Jewish, etc. private
schools *establishes* (key word) a particular religion. Same about
faith-based initiatives. For something to vilate the Constitution, it
has to *actually* violate it - not just *appear* to violate it to
someone who takes a superficial glance and doesn't think it thru. In
the &quot;early&quot; days, states and local gov'ts were allowed to actually do
things in this regard that the Constitution forbid Congress from doing
(like establishing an official state religion. The question of whether
that was right or wise for states to do doesn't come into play if you're
looking at issues of Constitutionality. It stipulates what **Congress**
may or may not do - period. And beyond that, it says that Congress
can't pass laws on the subject. BTW - did you know that the Supreme
Court declared that secular humanism is a religion?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#119: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-15 22:04:35 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dgbi9f$eqh$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt; &gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:dgaghs$u03$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Bill Putney wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Don wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;...When asked by the King of Jordan why he was attacking Iraq, bush
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;said; &quot;Because god told me to.&quot;...
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Nice try. Neither Snopes nor www.truthorfiction.com document that -
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;that's the kind of thing they would if it were true. Please cite a
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;credible source (Randi Rhodes or Al Franken don't count).
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;Yep - you were lying.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; Not so fast Bill.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; That was reported in Ha'aretz back in June 2003. The Washington Post
&gt; &gt; subsequently
&gt;
&gt; (1) Bush never said anything like that to the King of Jordan.
&gt; (2) The &quot;quote&quot; that is cited is not a *quote* at all. Whatever it was
&gt; he said was heresay that even if he said anything remotely like it went
&gt; thru two translations.
&gt;

Then there should have been no problem for the White House to simply tell
the Washington Post that it was garbled in translation and Bush meant it
differently.
End of story.

The fact that the Whitehouse simply ignored the question speaks volumes.

I don't know about you but if I'm paying someone to do work for me and I ask
that person a question and he ignores me, I fire him. And that is what the
American
people should have done with Bush back in 2004.

Ted

Report this message

#120: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-15 22:16:08 by Ted Mittelstaedt

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dgbivk$f4k$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; &gt; ...opens the
&gt; &gt; door to state-sponsored religion just a crack, such as was done with the
&gt; &gt; school
&gt; &gt; voucher program, and the government/church charity initative,...
&gt;
&gt; You would probably disagree, but please tell me how school vouchers
&gt; equally available to public and secular, Christian, Jewish, etc. private
&gt; schools *establishes* (key word) a particular religion. Same about
&gt; faith-based initiatives.

It doesen't establish religion, but it is a step towards it. The problem is
while you might be OK within the strictures of the Constitution to take a
lot of steps towards establishment of a state sponsored religion, once you
start heading down that path it becomes a lot more difficult to stop at the
line in the sand. And even if you can stop, a lot of your supporters don't
have the same self-control and cannot.

History is filled with governments who have done unspeakable things and
got their populate to do unspeakable things. After all it was considered
perfectly normal in ancient Rome for people to go to a stadium and watch
people being torn to bits by wild animals. They didn't get that way
overnight,
their culture grew that way. And they are still stoning people to death
today
in some parts of the world. None of these things happened because one day
someone in power decided it was a good thing to do. They happened because
over the years the people in power grew more and more favorable to these
things.

And establishing a state sponsored religion is NOT anywhere near unspeakable
to a surprisingly large percentage of the US populace.

&gt; For something to vilate the Constitution, it
&gt; has to *actually* violate it - not just *appear* to violate it to
&gt; someone who takes a superficial glance and doesn't think it thru. In
&gt; the &quot;early&quot; days, states and local gov'ts were allowed to actually do
&gt; things in this regard that the Constitution forbid Congress from doing
&gt; (like establishing an official state religion. The question of whether
&gt; that was right or wise for states to do doesn't come into play if you're
&gt; looking at issues of Constitutionality. It stipulates what **Congress**
&gt; may or may not do - period.

Then you should have no problem when the State of Oregon decided to
legalize Assisted Suicide. And when the State of California decided to
legalize gay marriage (as they are getting ready to do) as well as when both
those states decided to legalize Marijuana. Those things aren't
covered by the US Constitution but the US Congress is doing everything it
can to make them illegal.

You might not have a problem with those 3 things but look around you and
look at the people your standing with - a quite lot of them do.

Ted

Report this message

#121: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-15 23:17:06 by Bill Putney

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dgbi9f$eqh$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt;&gt;&gt;news:dgaghs$u03$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Bill Putney wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Don wrote:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;...When asked by the King of Jordan why he was attacking Iraq, bush
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;said; &quot;Because god told me to.&quot;...
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Nice try. Neither Snopes nor www.truthorfiction.com document that -
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;that's the kind of thing they would if it were true. Please cite a
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;credible source (Randi Rhodes or Al Franken don't count).
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Yep - you were lying.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;Not so fast Bill.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;That was reported in Ha'aretz back in June 2003. The Washington Post
&gt;&gt;&gt;subsequently
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;(1) Bush never said anything like that to the King of Jordan.
&gt;&gt;(2) The &quot;quote&quot; that is cited is not a *quote* at all. Whatever it was
&gt;&gt;he said was heresay that even if he said anything remotely like it went
&gt;&gt;thru two translations.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Then there should have been no problem for the White House to simply tell
&gt; the Washington Post that it was garbled in translation and Bush meant it
&gt; differently.
&gt; End of story.
&gt;
&gt; The fact that the Whitehouse simply ignored the question speaks volumes.
&gt;
&gt; I don't know about you but if I'm paying someone to do work for me and I ask
&gt; that person a question and he ignores me, I fire him. And that is what the
&gt; American
&gt; people should have done with Bush back in 2004.
&gt;
&gt; Ted

So Bush should stop and respond to every cackpot who comes up with
half-baked stories. Like Louis Farrakhan saying regarding New Orleans:
&quot; 'I heard from a very reliable source who saw a 25 foot deep crater
under the levee breach. It may have been blown up to destroy the black
part of town and keep the white part dry,' Farrakhan said.&quot;
(That's an example of an honest to God direct quote:
<a href="http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/091205-ad-wcnc-farrakhan.4fb21767.html" target="_blank"> http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/091205-ad-wcnc-f arrakhan.4fb21767.html</a>)

Sorry - but I think it would be foolish to start responding to such
crap. A president could be more effective ignoring it and it would be
irresponsible to be distracted like that.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#122: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-15 23:40:11 by Bill Putney

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dgbivk$f4k$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;...opens the
&gt;&gt;&gt;door to state-sponsored religion just a crack, such as was done with the
&gt;&gt;&gt;school
&gt;&gt;&gt;voucher program, and the government/church charity initative,...
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;You would probably disagree, but please tell me how school vouchers
&gt;&gt;equally available to public and secular, Christian, Jewish, etc. private
&gt;&gt;schools *establishes* (key word) a particular religion. Same about
&gt;&gt;faith-based initiatives.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; It doesen't establish religion, but it is a step towards it. The problem is
&gt; while you might be OK within the strictures of the Constitution to take a
&gt; lot of steps towards establishment of a state sponsored religion, once you
&gt; start heading down that path it becomes a lot more difficult to stop at the
&gt; line in the sand. And even if you can stop, a lot of your supporters don't
&gt; have the same self-control and cannot.

You have just invoked the ol' slippery slope argument. Liberals never
allow slippery slope arguments when used against them, but they sure
whip them out when it suits their purposes.

Seriously - from a strict legal/Constitutional standpoint, &quot;one step
towards&quot; is the same as the commonly used expression &quot;a near miss&quot; (or a
near hit) - (an inch is as good as a mile). Either it fits the
prohibited activity or it doesn't, not &quot;It appears to some as being
similar to...&quot;. It doesn't say &quot;nothing can be done that looks like it
may be a step towards...&quot; It says &quot;may not pass a law that...&quot;. *Bush*
is not *Congress*. *Speaking* is not *passing a law that*. Therefore
&quot;Bush saying...&quot; is not the same as &quot;Congress passing a law that...&quot;.


&gt; History is filled with governments who have done unspeakable things and
&gt; got their populate to do unspeakable things. After all it was considered
&gt; perfectly normal in ancient Rome for people to go to a stadium and watch
&gt; people being torn to bits by wild animals. They didn't get that way
&gt; overnight,
&gt; their culture grew that way. And they are still stoning people to death
&gt; today
&gt; in some parts of the world. None of these things happened because one day
&gt; someone in power decided it was a good thing to do. They happened because
&gt; over the years the people in power grew more and more favorable to these
&gt; things.

See above re: Slippery slope arguments.

&gt; And establishing a state sponsored religion is NOT anywhere near unspeakable
&gt; to a surprisingly large percentage of the US populace.

I'm just the messenger. A state establishing a religion is not
prohibited by the Constitution. Again, I didn't say I think they should
or that it would be a good thing to do, but if we're talking about &quot;What
does the Constitution say about a state establishing a religion?&quot;, then
the answer is &quot;Nothing&quot;. Again - I'm just stating the facts. I didn't
say I was for or agin'. The subject is the Constitution.

&gt;&gt;For something to vilate the Constitution, it
&gt;&gt;has to *actually* violate it - not just *appear* to violate it to
&gt;&gt;someone who takes a superficial glance and doesn't think it thru. In
&gt;&gt;the &quot;early&quot; days, states and local gov'ts were allowed to actually do
&gt;&gt;things in this regard that the Constitution forbid Congress from doing
&gt;&gt;(like establishing an official state religion. The question of whether
&gt;&gt;that was right or wise for states to do doesn't come into play if you're
&gt;&gt;looking at issues of Constitutionality. It stipulates what **Congress**
&gt;&gt;may or may not do - period.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Then you should have no problem when the State of Oregon decided to
&gt; legalize Assisted Suicide. And when the State of California decided to
&gt; legalize gay marriage (as they are getting ready to do) as well as when both
&gt; those states decided to legalize Marijuana. Those things aren't
&gt; covered by the US Constitution but the US Congress is doing everything it
&gt; can to make them illegal.

Whether I have a problem with it has nothing to do with the question of
is it allowed by the Constitution, does it. This isn't a discussion of
what is and is not Ok by me. This is a discussion of what is
Constitutional.

BTW (and you may find this intersting and/or humorous) - I used to work
with a guy that claims that the county he lives in never signed the
loyalty oath that was required of all counties in the Confederacy after
the Civil War (or what some refer to as &quot;The Recent Unpleasantness&quot;),
and that it is the *only* county in the entire south not to have done
so. So technically, he claims, his county is still seceded from the Union.

&gt; You might not have a problem with those 3 things but look around you and
&gt; look at the people your standing with - a quite lot of them do.

We live under the Constitution. If we believe in the Constitition, then
we should all let the chips fall where they may and strictly enforce it
even on specifics that we disagree with. And, BTW - it does have the
provisions within itself to be altered/amended. It was intentionally
and wisely made difficult to amend, but even a strict Constitutionalist
has to acknowledge that it can be amended.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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#123: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-16 11:49:00 by Dori A Schmetterling

Obliquely relevant: did you know that the UK has an established religion,
the Church of Engand?
<a href="http://www.cofe.anglican.org/" target="_blank">http://www.cofe.anglican.org/</a>

Doesn't seem to have done us much harm. In fact, we are the least religious
country in Europe.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

&quot;Ted Mittelstaedt&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com" target="_blank">tedm&#64;toybox.placo.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:newscache$yakvmi$8yu$<a href="mailto:1&#64;news.ipinc.net..." target="_blank">1&#64;news.ipinc.net...</a>
[...]
&gt;
&gt; And establishing a state sponsored religion is NOT anywhere near
&gt; unspeakable
&gt; to a surprisingly large percentage of the US populace.
&gt;
[...]

Report this message

#124: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-17 03:38:26 by R Steenerson

Interesting point. I think that the goal of having a 600 mile range on
a car would not all be in the capacity of the gas tank. The mpg needs to be
about 25 mpg and then a 24 or 25 gallon would do it.
I think I remember the weight of a gallon of water is 8.3 pounds and
the weight of one gallon of gas is 6.5 or 6.7 pounds. So, 6.7 x 25 would be
less than 175 pounds. That is the weight of one average man or less. Hope
that does not make a difference to a motor vehicle. If it does, I am not
sure that I would want a vehicle like that. (30 galllons at 6.7 would be
about 200 pounds.)

&quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:dg1gt2$9nb$<a href="mailto:2&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">2&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; R Steenerson wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I think it would be great to have a 600 mile range on a gas tank. I
&gt; &gt; have been driving a Taurus for the last 3 years and the range for city
&gt; &gt; driving is only 200 miles.
&gt;
&gt; You're asking for 600 miles city driving? So you want a 33 gallon tank?
&gt; I don't think you would be happy with that, and when full, your milage
&gt; would drop dut to the weight.
&gt;
&gt; Bill Putney
&gt; (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
&gt; address with the letter 'x')

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#125: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-17 15:08:52 by Dori A Schmetterling

It is interesting. You have a number of 'non-friends' in this (Chrysler) NG
and yet you manage to start very long threads...

:-)
DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

&quot;Nomen Nescio&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:<a href="mailto:cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com..." target="_blank">cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com...</a>
&gt; During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road
&gt; fuel
&gt; availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;
&gt; It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt; achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;
&gt; Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt; car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt; throats with a Federal Law.
&gt;

Report this message

#126: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-17 15:26:58 by Bill Putney

You're right - I assumed 200 miles on a typical intermediate car gas
tank of 11 or 12 gallons, so to get 600 mile range, I tripled the gas
tank size. That works out to about 18 mpg - today's car doesn't get
much better than that in city driving - but that also was part of your
point.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')


R Steenerson wrote:

&gt; Interesting point. I think that the goal of having a 600 mile range on
&gt; a car would not all be in the capacity of the gas tank. The mpg needs to be
&gt; about 25 mpg and then a 24 or 25 gallon would do it.
&gt; I think I remember the weight of a gallon of water is 8.3 pounds and
&gt; the weight of one gallon of gas is 6.5 or 6.7 pounds. So, 6.7 x 25 would be
&gt; less than 175 pounds. That is the weight of one average man or less. Hope
&gt; that does not make a difference to a motor vehicle. If it does, I am not
&gt; sure that I would want a vehicle like that. (30 galllons at 6.7 would be
&gt; about 200 pounds.)
&gt;
&gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; news:dg1gt2$9nb$<a href="mailto:2&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">2&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt;
&gt;&gt;R Steenerson wrote:
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;&gt;I think it would be great to have a 600 mile range on a gas tank. I
&gt;&gt;&gt;have been driving a Taurus for the last 3 years and the range for city
&gt;&gt;&gt;driving is only 200 miles.
&gt;&gt;
&gt;&gt;You're asking for 600 miles city driving? So you want a 33 gallon tank?
&gt;&gt; I don't think you would be happy with that, and when full, your milage
&gt;&gt;would drop dut to the weight.

Report this message

#127: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-17 16:34:33 by Albert Finley

Bill Putney wrote:

&gt; You're right - I assumed 200 miles on a typical intermediate car gas
&gt; tank of 11 or 12 gallons, so to get 600 mile range, I tripled the gas
&gt; tank size. That works out to about 18 mpg - today's car doesn't get
&gt; much better than that in city driving - but that also was part of your
&gt; point.

And how much more fuel will the nation consume while hauling the extra (He said
triple the size)= 24 gallons = 91 liters = 90 Kg = about 200 lb..

Sorry I should have read the previous post! (same point, different numbers)

&gt;
&gt;
&gt; Bill Putney
&gt; (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
&gt; address with the letter 'x')
&gt;
&gt; R Steenerson wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Interesting point. I think that the goal of having a 600 mile range on
&gt; &gt; a car would not all be in the capacity of the gas tank. The mpg needs to be
&gt; &gt; about 25 mpg and then a 24 or 25 gallon would do it.
&gt; &gt; I think I remember the weight of a gallon of water is 8.3 pounds and
&gt; &gt; the weight of one gallon of gas is 6.5 or 6.7 pounds. So, 6.7 x 25 would be
&gt; &gt; less than 175 pounds. That is the weight of one average man or less. Hope
&gt; &gt; that does not make a difference to a motor vehicle. If it does, I am not
&gt; &gt; sure that I would want a vehicle like that. (30 galllons at 6.7 would be
&gt; &gt; about 200 pounds.)
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &quot;Bill Putney&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:bptn&#64;kinez.net" target="_blank">bptn&#64;kinez.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
&gt; &gt; news:dg1gt2$9nb$<a href="mailto:2&#64;news.isdn.net..." target="_blank">2&#64;news.isdn.net...</a>
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;R Steenerson wrote:
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;I think it would be great to have a 600 mile range on a gas tank. I
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;have been driving a Taurus for the last 3 years and the range for city
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;driving is only 200 miles.
&gt; &gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;You're asking for 600 miles city driving? So you want a 33 gallon tank?
&gt; &gt;&gt; I don't think you would be happy with that, and when full, your milage
&gt; &gt;&gt;would drop dut to the weight.

Report this message

#128: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-18 22:13:48 by Matt Whiting

R Steenerson wrote:

&gt; Interesting point. I think that the goal of having a 600 mile range on
&gt; a car would not all be in the capacity of the gas tank. The mpg needs to be
&gt; about 25 mpg and then a 24 or 25 gallon would do it.
&gt; I think I remember the weight of a gallon of water is 8.3 pounds and
&gt; the weight of one gallon of gas is 6.5 or 6.7 pounds. So, 6.7 x 25 would be
&gt; less than 175 pounds. That is the weight of one average man or less. Hope
&gt; that does not make a difference to a motor vehicle. If it does, I am not
&gt; sure that I would want a vehicle like that. (30 galllons at 6.7 would be
&gt; about 200 pounds.)

Of course 175 pounds of weight makes a difference to a vehicle. Every
extra pound takes energy to accelerate, decelerate and haul up hills.

Matt

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#129: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-19 05:25:49 by R Steenerson

Well, I am writing from Minnesota. We don't have many hills here.
But, the 175 lbs is total weight for a 25 gallon gas tank, the incremental
difference from say 12 gallons is not 175, but would be about 90 pounds.
For better, gas mileage people are encouraged to not carry around a lot
of stuff in their trunks and their is value in that but, if 90 pounds or 200
pounds affects mileage more than .3 or .5 miles per gallon I would be
disappointed with my car. My basic point, is that I like the idea or having
a range of 600 miles for a vehicle.
Of course not all vehicles are equal either but, for cars it would be
nice if they could get 25 mpg or so. However, it might be impossible to
have a V-8 SUV or pickup truck with a lot of towing capacity be able to get
25 or even 20 mpg. Maybe the max there would be 16 mpg in which case the
gas tank might need to be 40 gallons. For a 12,000 lb truck with 6 or 7 mpg
maybe a 100 gallon tank would be unreasonable and maybe some classes of
vehicles would be excluded but, I still like being able to go along way
without stopping for gas a lot.

&quot;Matt Whiting&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:whiting&#64;epix.net" target="_blank">whiting&#64;epix.net</a>&gt; wrote in message
news:0UjXe.851$<a href="mailto:lb.64563&#64;news1.epix.net..." target="_blank">lb.64563&#64;news1.epix.net...</a>
&gt; R Steenerson wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Interesting point. I think that the goal of having a 600 mile
range on
&gt; &gt; a car would not all be in the capacity of the gas tank. The mpg needs
to be
&gt; &gt; about 25 mpg and then a 24 or 25 gallon would do it.
&gt; &gt; I think I remember the weight of a gallon of water is 8.3 pounds
and
&gt; &gt; the weight of one gallon of gas is 6.5 or 6.7 pounds. So, 6.7 x 25
would be
&gt; &gt; less than 175 pounds. That is the weight of one average man or less.
Hope
&gt; &gt; that does not make a difference to a motor vehicle. If it does, I am
not
&gt; &gt; sure that I would want a vehicle like that. (30 galllons at 6.7 would
be
&gt; &gt; about 200 pounds.)
&gt;
&gt; Of course 175 pounds of weight makes a difference to a vehicle. Every
&gt; extra pound takes energy to accelerate, decelerate and haul up hills.
&gt;
&gt; Matt

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#130: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-19 21:12:14 by Alex Rodriguez

In article &lt;<a href="mailto:cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">cf567ecc60bfc971e4aa4434fc8da64b&#64;dizum.com</a>&gt;, <a href="mailto:nobody&#64;dizum.com" target="_blank">nobody&#64;dizum.com</a>
says...

&gt;During the evacuation of New Orleans, on-board fuel supply and on-road fuel
&gt;availability was of considerable importance and worry to car travellers.
&gt;It is feasible to build cars with fuel tanks of sufficient capacity to
&gt;achieve 600 range with reserve.
&gt;Car makers consider 325 miles with reserve good enough. It isn't. Since
&gt;car makers won't build cars this way, we need to force it down their
&gt;throats with a Federal Law.

Why not add hurricane testing to federl crash standards too? Then you don;'t
have to worry about the vehicles range. It's makes just as much sense as your
suggestion.
-------------
Alex

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#131: Re: 600 mile range Federal law needed

Posted on 2005-09-25 08:00:20 by C-BODY

All politics aside . . . if a new car has (and will get) 30mph EPA
highway fuel ecomony and has a (typically) 16 gallon fuel tank (of which
only about 14 can reasonably be used without harming the electric fuel
pump in the tank), then that's a total theoretical 480 mile highway
cruising range. Up from the former 20 gallons and 20 EPA Highway (i.e.,
400 miles) situation in the later 1970s.

If a new Dodge pickup is rated at 21mpg EPA Highway with a 26 gallon
fuel tank (possibly), might the way to get to the 600 mile range be to
add a few more gallons' capacity to the fuel tank?

By observation, once you spend 400 miles behind the wheel of anything,
you NEED to get out and walk around a little. A fuel stop is a good way
to do that! Might be one reason that smaller and more fuel efficient
cars have smaller fuel tanks? A build-in &quot;safety&quot; situation?

A high level Ford Motor Company operative was quoted as commenting (re:
federal CAFE fuel ecomony standards) that it was NOT the way to get
people into more fuel efficient vehicles, when compared to normal market
issues and fuel costs. When fuel costs go up, sales of smaller vehicles
trend upward too, typically.

Yet CAFE mandates those things for us rather than US making that choice
ourselves. Protecting us from ourselves? Possibly. Maybe not.
Depends upon which economist and prognosticator you desire to listen
to--of which there are MANY these days that ALL have the answer.

Some might claim it was the drive to higher CAFE and resultantly smaller
cars that fueled the trend toward truck-based vehicles in the first
place. Families have NOT shrunk and they now have more and larger
things to carry around with them (high tech and larger baby strollers,
for example). The small cars of the 1980s would not do those things and
still get 30mpg, unless it was a Chevette diesel at 50mpg with no
factory a/c available. Much less haul 5 people in relative comfort AND
safety!!

One reason the Chevy Suburban became &quot;The National Car of Texas&quot; was not
that a big state needs big vehicles for the citizenry to drive around
in, but because of &quot;safety&quot; issues for the occupants. &quot;Texas Monthly&quot;
magazine did an article on that back in the later 1980s. It also
mentioned how a dual-a/c Suburban just didn't cut it when compared to
the import minivans of the era too, in use/utility/people and family
haul and the &quot;safety in a crash&quot; issue in the pre-air bag days. And the
1/2 ton models would generally get mid to high teens fuel economy on
the highway and in normal use . . . plus haul the bass boat on weekends,
or the travel trailer. This was in the 1985 era time frame.

With the optional 40 gallon fuel tank and 16mpg highway, over 600 miles
range.

In modern times, it's not specifically how big the tank is, it's how
much it costs to fill it and how THAT fits into the budget. For
example, the Avalanche owners that moved into Pontiac G6 or Chevy Malibu
vehicles are now glad they did it.

Granted, many people really don't need a truck-based vehicle to just
drive around in--but they buy them for that. Kind of like the executive
that drives a 4 door 4wd diesel pickup to work. Heck of a price of
admission for the diesel engine option over a gas motor, plus the
significantly higher cost of oil changes, but the engine costs will be
usually returned at trade-in time, so the real costs are the 10-17 quart
oil changes and the more expensive oil filter that are not compensated
for with the up to 20mpg+ (unloaded average fuel economy. If you've got
the price of admission for a $50K diesel pickup rig and can not flinch
at the oil change costs (some people even want Mobil 1 synthetic oil in
them!!!), then our generally strong economy can help them support that
habit--whether we like it or not.

Almost everything the government has tried to legislate us into, the
enterprising people that we are has generally found a way around it (the
legal stuff, that is!). If people want rwd V-8 vehicles and truck
chassis vehicles can and do have that, they'll buy them over a fwd car
they don't like. No musclecars as such, but we've got factory 150mph+
SRT-10 Ram 1500s to compensate. But then we've now got 14.0 second 1/4
mile times from a 4000lb production sedan that will get about 25mpg+ on
the highway too.

We've been into truck chassis vehicles for too long, but that's what the
public has been buying due to need or just desires. Now it's time for
some neat cars again (i.e., new Mustang) AND for Chrysler to stop
side-stepping things and get us a new CHARGER COUPE and a companion
CHALLENGER/CUDA car that's WORTHY of the name!!!!! Just like the prior
B-car chassis was the basis for the E-body chassis/platform!!! They
need to get there BEFORE GM does!!! WE know they can do it, if they
just would!!!!!

Ford seems to hit all of the right buttons in the &quot;retro&quot; Mustang and
seems to have a monopoly in doing that sort of thing. And Mr. Creed
desires to push his agenda of having just a 4-door Charger, when it's
highly obvious that there needs to be a CHARGER COUPE that is WORTHY of
the name in style and performance and IMAGE.

(remaining soap box time relinquished . . .)

Enjoy!

C-BODY

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