|
General » rec.autos.driving » Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010
| Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797420] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 02:05 |
|
From Businessweek.com
Zero-Pollution Car Coming to U.S.
The Zero-Pollution MDI Air Car, invented in France and licensed by
India's Tata Motors, will go on sale in the U.S. by 2010
The Zero-Pollution MDI Air Car, invented in France and licensed by
Tata Motors in India, is coming to American shores. Zero Pollution
Motors have announced they will begin taking reservations for the
first U.S. deliveries in the next couple of months, but it will be
2010 before Americans get their first taste of the ingenious
compressed-air motor, which runs to 35 mph entirely on air, or uses a
trickle of petrol to heat and compress more air to reach higher speeds
up to 90 mph. It'll cost next to nothing to run (how do 30,000 km
service intervals sound?), have a range of up to 1000 miles, and
retail for well under $20,000.
We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems the
concept is starting to gather some serious momentum. After signing a
mass-production agreement with India's largest auto manufacturer, Zero
Pollution has announced the beginning of a marketing push into the
U.S.A.
Pre-orders for the air car will be taken in early 2008 on the Zero
Pollution website, and initial U.S. deliveries for a 6-seater, 4-door,
75 hp, dual-energy MDI Air Car are anticipated for 2010.
The air car has also been one of the first entries in the multi-
million dollar Automotive XPrize competition, which aims to reward
innovators and inspire a new generation of super-efficient, 100 mph+
vehicles to help free mankind from its oil addiction.
Provided by Gizmag.com--ideas, innovation, invention
Via Businessweek.com tiny url: http://tinyurl.com/243ue2
=============
DON'T MOURN, ACT! WEBSITES FOR ACTION:
http://www.earthshare.org/get_involved/involved.html
http://www.greenhousenet.org/
http://www.solarcatalyst.com/
http://www.campaignearth.org/buy_green_nativeenergy.asp
Overview and local actions you can take: http://www.PostCarbon.org
=============
= = = =
STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA
IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?
= = = =
Daily online radio show, news reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org
More news: UseNet's misc.activism.progressive (moderated)
= = = =
Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email
For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace)
And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general)
** Email Note: "info" and "map" etc DON'T work. Now:
econdemocracy(at)gmail
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797421 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 02:15 |
|
"EconomicDemocracy Coop" <econdemocracy [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0421842f-2dca-49af-8601-2fa3aba8a62e [at] f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> From Businessweek.com
>
> Zero-Pollution Car Coming to U.S.
Bullshit.
This particular car has been "coming" for years. As a going concern, it will
never arrive in the U.S. or anywhere else because the basic concept of an
efficient air-driven car with decent range and performance defies (or at least
seriously strains) the laws of physics. In the case of the Aircar, their
continuing claims to have contracts and factories in place defy the laws of
human credibility.
Vaughn
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797422 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 03:06 |
|
EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
> The Zero-Pollution MDI Air Car, invented in France and licensed by
> India's Tata Motors, will go on sale in the U.S. by 2010
It's NOT zero pollution.
The compressed air that powers it has to be compressed using an electric
compressor and the electricity generation creates pollution.
It's a POS car anyway.
Graham
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797423 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 03:08 |
|
EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
> We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
> as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems the
> concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e it's very
lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
It's almost a complete waste of time. Suitable only for tiny vehicles and
short journeys. Possibly OK for city delivery runs.
Graham
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797432 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 07:24 |
|
EconomicDemocracy Coop <econdemocracy [at] gmail.com> wrote in news:0421842f-
2dca-49af-8601-2fa3aba8a62e [at] f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
> as the next energy storage medium for road cars,
>
Where does the energy to compress the air come from?
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797436 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 16:29 |
|
On Mar 8, 8:06=A0pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati... [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
> EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
> > The Zero-Pollution MDI Air Car, invented in France and licensed by
> > India's Tata Motors, will go on sale in the U.S. by 2010
>
> It's NOT zero pollution.
>
> The compressed air that powers it has to be compressed using an electric
> compressor and the electricity generation creates pollution.
>
> It's a POS car anyway.
>
> Graham
Actually, it is a non-existant car. I first saw this BS back in the
90s. Back then they were puffing the same crap and in addition
claiming that factories were already contracted in Mexico, South
Africa, etc.
I will admit that they advanced some. Back then, their publicity
photos of the supposed car were obvious models, not even clay but they
type models kids play with.
I love the "trickle of gas to heat the air" bit.
Just a minimum bit of thought shows their claims (1,000 mile range)
for a few pennies is asinine.
Zero pollution? Not even close.
Efficiency? When you compress air, it heats up. At the pressures
they are quoting it would boil water - that heat is wasted. Read
money spent producing heat that can't be recovered. Then as the air
expands driving the pistons, it cools down - fast. Read more loss of
heat.
Air driving vehicles have been and are available all over the world in
mines, factories, etc. They are all very limited range and for
special purpose only.
Harry K
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797440 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 16:49 |
|
|
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797444 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 18:26 |
|
Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan [at] yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4m18t39ho5vociodvo36552uakqil79pna [at] 4ax.com:
> On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 06:24:14 -0000, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are
> MURDERERS" <xeton2001 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>EconomicDemocracy Coop <econdemocracy [at] gmail.com> wrote in news:0421842f-
>>2dca-49af-8601-2fa3aba8a62e [at] f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
>>> as the next energy storage medium for road cars,
>>
>>Where does the energy to compress the air come from?
>
> As noted previously, you generate enough hot air to power one of these
> cars in perpetuity.
>
Address the issue i raised. Some sort of energy consuming machinery will
have to be used to compress the air. This sounds like another scam. The
way to save energy is with smaller vehicles and lower speeds.
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797447 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 18:33 |
|
Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
> Some sort of energy consuming machinery will have to be used to compress the
> air. This sounds like another scam.
It IS a scam after a fashion. Mr Guy Negre is simply obsessional about his
idea. He ignores its many weak points.
Graham
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797449 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 18:57 |
|
SFB spewed:
>EconomicDemocracy Coop <econdemocracy [at] gmail.com> wrote in news:0421842f-
>2dca-49af-8601-2fa3aba8a62e [at] f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>
>>
>>
>> We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
>> as the next energy storage medium for road cars,
>>
>
>Where does the energy to compress the air come from?
The hot air that pollutes our atmosphere everytime you open your
mouth.
Aunt Judy demonstrates its lack of understanding
of the concept of "</killfile>," and "<killfile>,"
and what a "thread," is:
"Now that takes nerve. You claim to killfile
me TWICE in the same thread and you expect
people to take you seriously???"
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/r5qp9
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797450 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 18:58 |
|
On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 17:26:08 -0000, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are
MURDERERS" <xeton2001 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan [at] yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:4m18t39ho5vociodvo36552uakqil79pna [at] 4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 06:24:14 -0000, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are
>> MURDERERS" <xeton2001 [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>EconomicDemocracy Coop <econdemocracy [at] gmail.com> wrote in news:0421842f-
>>>2dca-49af-8601-2fa3aba8a62e [at] f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
>>>> as the next energy storage medium for road cars,
>>>
>>>Where does the energy to compress the air come from?
>>
>> As noted previously, you generate enough hot air to power one of these
>> cars in perpetuity.
>>
>
>Address the issue i raised.
Scott did. You are just too stupid to comprehend what he said.
>Some sort of energy consuming machinery will
>have to be used to compress the air. This sounds like another scam. The
>way to save energy is with smaller vehicles and lower speeds.
Starting with sending your beater to the crusher - with you still
behind the wheel.
"My tars have been bald for two years.
Every month i glue some sandpaper to them and
everythings cool."
--Laura Buch murdered her boyfriend
/ laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE
/ Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS
10/25/05
Message ID: s2ttl1tgnpq5pr6p48lr111p3lnvr4blch [at] 4ax.com
http://tinyurl.com/7p7xq
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797458 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 21:07 |
|
Delighted to see the interest and exchange (and will at the same time
stay out of the flame wars) but, to clear up several items confusion:
1) "Zero Pollution Motors" is the name of the US affiliate of MDI.
Thus it is factually correct to refer
to them by this name, although care must be take to clear up what one
is referring to.
It is a meaningless question (see below) to ask whether the
electricity is zero pollution or not, without specifying our
electricity source, of course.
2) "We've written before about the promising potential of compressed
air "
Although this statement would be factually correct were we,
econdemocracy [at] gmail.com to say that, the statement is from
Businessweek.com (more confusingly so, Gizmag.com is being quoted by
Businessweek.com AFAIKT) so it is Gizmag which "[wrote] before about
the promising potential of compressed air"
3) We've followed MDI since 2000 and are well aware of the challenges
they have faced. In February of 2007, however, Tata Motors, one of the
known large internationally recognized companies and India's largest
automaker, invested $27 million in MDI. You can verify that from
Tata's website, if I remember correctly; or see
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7243247.stm
Notes BBC, "Analysts say the fact that the project has the backing of
an internationally well known company such as Tata makes the idea much
more marketable."
So healthy skepticism should still be maintained about long-term
market success, but as to whether it's real or not, it's been clear
for a long time for those who invest time to personally research it
that it's a very real technology, and now with Tata it's pretty clear
that Tata, which is no fool and no new-comer, is betting $27 million
not only out of confidence in the technology but on the next step,
namely the market potential of that technology.
4) Does the electricity pollute? A clearer question might be, can the
air-car be powered by electricity which has been produced in a way
which create far, far less CO2, or which creates far, far less
particulate matter, or both?
For human lung health, even the same level of pollution, moved away
from downtown areas, is an improvement, and furthermore, it's been
shown that even 100% coal powered plants can produce less CO2 (simply
because while gasoline is less CO2 intensive, the engine of a sincle
automobile is less efficient than a multi-megawatt coal-powered plant
producing electricity) though the numbers vary from case to
case...and, even in that case, while the electric powered cars powered
by coal-generated electricity are an improvement, it's not the kind of
big improvement electrification offers.
For that, if we're smart, we expand the already-existing sources of
electricity that are powered by wind, solar, etc, and get a much
bigger improvement than just coal-created-electricity, in fact, a huge
cut in CO2 and particulate emissions and so forth. Until that happens,
there are other options:
At the micro level, you can generate your own electricity from wind or
solar (we've posted previously about the Californian who gets 100% of
their electric car's driving miles per year, from the solar panels on
his roof; or buy a few Hornet turbines :-) But there is yet another,
intermediate way:
At the middle scale level, before we have more large-scale electric
plants powered by renewables, but much larger than sincle family
electricity generation, is the technology that has compressed air
stations themselves directly powered by renewable energy sources like
solar, wind, or the power or running water; have a look at
http://cyber-media.com/aircar/renewable-concept.html
from the main MDI fan site. (other links and background at
http://cyber-media.com/aircar/ which has been up since 2002/2003).
-ED
= = = =
STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA
IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?
= = = =
= = = =
Sorry, we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email
FOR MORE INFORMATION: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace)
http://economicdemocracy.org/eco/climate-summary.html (Climate)
And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general)
** New email: econdemocracy[at]gmail[dot]com
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797459 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 22:05 |
|
Eeyore wrote:
>EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
>
>
>
>>We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
>>as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems the
>>concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
>>
>>
>
>It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e it's very
>lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
>
>
>
Picky picky.
I designed an air motor back when I was in school. You are missing one big
advantage. The air-conditioning you are going to get will blow your mind.
The amount of energy absorbed in expanding enough air to power a car would
provide enough cooling for an entire beer truck.
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797476 ] |
Sun, 09 March 2008 23:53 |
|
"EconomicDemocracy Coop" <econdemocracy [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ce64aa0f-23c9-42ca-adab-fef0c13cc58a [at] h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Delighted to see the interest and exchange (and will at the same time
> stay out of the flame wars) but, to clear up several items confusion:
Sorry, I read what you wrote and my opinion is unchanged.
I notice that you made no reference to the thermodynamic problems of
compressed gas energy storage. This is the "500# gorilla" that the Aircar folks
would like us all to ignore. We are talking about the laws of physics here!
The simple problem is this: When you compress a gas, it gets hot. This heat is
lost energy. You may find some other use for this low-grade heat or you may
not. More likely it is energy lost from the system forever.
But that is not all...
When it come time to put that air that air that you so expensively compressed
into the engine to do work with it, it suddenly wants that "lost" energy back!
If you do not find a way to return it, the air gets very cold and refuses to
expand completely, so you lose energy (that same energy) a second time. Again,
there are ways to mitigate this problem, but they all make the air engine
larger, more complex, and heavier, making the Aircar itself more expensive to
buy and operate while potentially reducing its range and payload.
But that is not all...
The rules of physics limit the maximum number of BTUs of energy that you can
pack into compressed air tanks. This limitation is "forever' because it is a
function of very basic physics. On the other hand, we can still look forward to
considerable technological improvement in battery technology, (which is probably
already far superior to compressed air storage technology).
So if you want to make any headway in this discussion, stop talking about the
name of the latest investor, but rather do your homework and then talk to us
about the relevant physics. When you return, please understand and be ready to
discuss with the group the relationships between Charles's law, Boyle's law and
Gay-Lussac's law and tell us why these will not be a problem with the Aircar.
Until then, as I said before, you are simply talking bullshit.
Thanks
Vaughn
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797477 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 00:55 |
|
EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
....
> 3) We've followed MDI since 2000 and are well aware of the challenges
> they have faced. In February of 2007, however, Tata Motors, one of the
> known large internationally recognized companies and India's largest
> automaker, invested $27 million in MDI.
Every year they announce more plants, more countries and sales within
a few months. This has been going on for about 8 years. Does a lie
become more believable just because you repeat it?
> Notes BBC, "Analysts say the fact that the project has the backing of
> an internationally well known company such as Tata makes the idea much
> more marketable."
Tata doesn't say anything about backing the air motor. They have
invested a little bit of money in the company but they don't say
why or what for.
I'm reminded of articles I've read on some very clever perpetual motion
device hoaxes. The devices never worked as claimed and were always
powered by conventional energy sources. People who studied these devices
were amazed at the skill, creativity and craftsmanship that went into
them. The people who made these things could easily have made more money
doing amazing things with machinery instead of wasting all their time
and talents trying to defraud investors.
I think MDI is probably in this category. Their 'Air Motor' is, at
best, of borderline usefulness even if they could get it to work.
In the persuit of that though, they have put together some other
interesting technologies for cheap, low tech, construction of
lightweight vehicles and done quite a bit of marketing.
It's quite likely that Tata has spent the money to gain access to some
of this other technology, market research or the like instead of the
air motor itself. Even if the air motor is complete garbage, this other
stuff might be worth something.
Anthony
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797479 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 00:03 |
|
On Mar 8, 9:05=EF=BF=BDpm, EconomicDemocracy Coop <econdemocr... [at] gmail.com>
wrote:
> Zero Pollution
> compressed-air motor, which runs to 35 mph entirely on air, or uses a
> trickle of petrol to heat and compress more air to reach higher speeds
> up to 90 mph. It'll cost next to nothing to run (how do 30,000 km
> service intervals sound?), have a range of up to 1000 miles, and
> retail for well under $20,000.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D
I think this should say 'costs next to nothing to maintain', because
the
service interval doesnt have much to do with the cost per mile does
it?
I think you'll find that the electricity consumed by the monster
compressor
that fills those 5000psi carbon fiber tanks will make the cost per
mile
more than the same size car on gas. Have any real figures on cost to
operate?
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797487 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 01:00 |
|
EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
> 2) "We've written before about the promising potential of compressed
> air "
>
> Although this statement would be factually correct were we,
> econdemocracy [at] gmail.com to say that, the statement is from
> Businessweek.com (more confusingly so, Gizmag.com is being quoted by
> Businessweek.com AFAIKT) so it is Gizmag which "[wrote] before about
> the promising potential of compressed air"
You expect JOURNALISTS to have even as much as half a clue ?
LMAO !
Graham
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797488 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 01:01 |
|
ecarecar wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> >EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
> >
> >>We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
> >>as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems the
> >>concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
> >
> >It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e it's very
> >lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
>
> Picky picky.
Facty facty !
> I designed an air motor back when I was in school. You are missing one big
> advantage. The air-conditioning you are going to get will blow your mind.
> The amount of energy absorbed in expanding enough air to power a car would
> provide enough cooling for an entire beer truck.
Utter nonsense.
Graham
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797490 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 01:03 |
|
Vaughn Simon wrote:
> The rules of physics limit the maximum number of BTUs of energy
Oh PLEASE can you Americans get up to date and start using Joules ?
BTUs are meaningless to most of the world !
Graham
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797494 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 01:26 |
|
Anthony Matonak wrote:
> Tata doesn't say anything about backing the air motor.
Indeed, they're interested AIUI in a version that also burns some gasoline !
Graham
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797495 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 01:36 |
|
On Mar 9, 5:01=A0pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati... [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
> ecarecar wrote:
> > Eeyore wrote:
> > >EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
>
> > >>We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
> > >>as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems the
> > >>concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
>
> > >It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e it's v=
ery
> > >lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
>
> > Picky picky.
>
> Facty facty !
>
> > I designed an air motor back when I was in school. =A0You are missing on=
e big
> > advantage. =A0The air-conditioning you are going to get will blow your m=
ind.
> > The amount of energy absorbed in expanding enough air to power a car wou=
ld
> > provide enough cooling for an entire beer truck.
>
> Utter nonsense.
>
> Graham
??? Nonsense in what way? Compressed air gets cold when it expands.
Harry K
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797497 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 01:47 |
|
Harry K wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
> > ecarecar wrote:
> > > Eeyore wrote:
> > > >EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
> >
> > > >>We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
> > > >>as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems the
> > > >>concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
> >
> > > >It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e it's very
> > > >lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
> >
> > > Picky picky.
> >
> > Facty facty !
> >
> > > I designed an air motor back when I was in school. You are missing one big
> > > advantage. The air-conditioning you are going to get will blow your mind.
> > > The amount of energy absorbed in expanding enough air to power a car would
> > > provide enough cooling for an entire beer truck.
> >
> > Utter nonsense.
> >
> > Graham
>
> ??? Nonsense in what way? Compressed air gets cold when it expands.
It's not used to provide AIR CONDITIONING !
The air car is a cheap POS, not a luxury one.
Graham
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797546 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 15:27 |
|
On Mar 9, 5:47=A0pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati... [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Harry K wrote:
> > Eeyore wrote:
> > > ecarecar wrote:
> > > > Eeyore wrote:
> > > > >EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
>
> > > > >>We've written before about the promising potential of compressed a=
ir
> > > > >>as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems the
> > > > >>concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
>
> > > > >It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e it=
's very
> > > > >lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
>
> > > > Picky picky.
>
> > > Facty facty !
>
> > > > I designed an air motor back when I was in school. =A0You are missin=
g one big
> > > > advantage. =A0The air-conditioning you are going to get will blow yo=
ur mind.
> > > > The amount of energy absorbed in expanding enough air to power a car=
would
> > > > provide enough cooling for an entire beer truck.
>
> > > Utter nonsense.
>
> > > Graham
>
> > ??? Nonsense in what way? =A0Compressed air gets cold when it expands.
>
> It's not used to provide AIR CONDITIONING !
>
> The air car is a cheap POS, not a luxury one.
>
> Graham- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The exhaust will be cold coming out of the engine. Run it through a
heater core just as is done now and, viola!, air conditioning.
The car is not only a POS but it won't work as hyped.
Harry K
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797547 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 15:31 |
|
On Mar 10, 7:27=A0am, Harry K <turnkey4... [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 5:47=A0pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati... [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Harry K wrote:
> > > Eeyore wrote:
> > > > ecarecar wrote:
> > > > > Eeyore wrote:
> > > > > >EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
>
> > > > > >>We've written before about the promising potential of compressed=
air
> > > > > >>as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems th=
e
> > > > > >>concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
>
> > > > > >It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e =
it's very
> > > > > >lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
>
> > > > > Picky picky.
>
> > > > Facty facty !
>
> > > > > I designed an air motor back when I was in school. =A0You are miss=
ing one big
> > > > > advantage. =A0The air-conditioning you are going to get will blow =
your mind.
> > > > > The amount of energy absorbed in expanding enough air to power a c=
ar would
> > > > > provide enough cooling for an entire beer truck.
>
> > > > Utter nonsense.
>
> > > > Graham
>
> > > ??? Nonsense in what way? =A0Compressed air gets cold when it expands.=
>
> > It's not used to provide AIR CONDITIONING !
>
> > The air car is a cheap POS, not a luxury one.
>
> > Graham- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The exhaust will be cold coming out of the engine. =A0Run it through a
> heater core just as is done now and, viola!, air conditioning.
>
> The car is not only a POS but it won't work as hyped.
>
Correction before you do one of your "jump on a slip of the finger"
things.
No, exhaust is not run through the heater core now. What I meant was
that AC is pulled off the heater core. How the core gets cold to
begin with doesn't mater as long as it does.
Harry K
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797559 ] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 18:57 |
|
On Mar 9, 5:03=A0pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati... [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Vaughn Simon wrote:
> > The rules of physics limit the maximum number of BTUs of energy
>
> Oh PLEASE can you Americans get up to date and start using Joules ?
>
> BTUs are meaningless to most of the world !
Like most everything else invented by Brits, hmmm?
E.P.
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797589 ] |
Tue, 11 March 2008 01:00 |
|
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47D47A5C.933DC557 [at] hotmail.com...
>
>
> ecarecar wrote:
>
>> Eeyore wrote:
>> >EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
>> >
>> >>We've written before about the promising potential of compressed air
>> >>as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems the
>> >>concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
>> >
>> >It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e it's
>> >very
>> >lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
>>
>> Picky picky.
>
> Facty facty !
>
>
>> I designed an air motor back when I was in school. You are missing one
>> big
>> advantage. The air-conditioning you are going to get will blow your
>> mind.
>> The amount of energy absorbed in expanding enough air to power a car
>> would
>> provide enough cooling for an entire beer truck.
>
> Utter nonsense.
>
Actually, he's right. The discharge temperature of the air *will* be very
cold.
But how many of us have 20 cases of beer to chill in the *trailer* that
would be needed to haul that much beer around?? :-)
And if you don't need that much cooling, well then it's just a waste. Kind
of like the whole idea is a waste of time....
daestrom
> Graham
>
>
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797590 ] |
Tue, 11 March 2008 01:01 |
|
"Harry K" <turnkey4099 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:108f6f6e-69b7-499c-b36c-d88b5ef6d65f [at] s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 9, 5:47 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati... [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Harry K wrote:
> > Eeyore wrote:
> > > ecarecar wrote:
> > > > Eeyore wrote:
> > > > >EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
>
> > > > >>We've written before about the promising potential of compressed
> > > > >>air
> > > > >>as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems the
> > > > >>concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
>
> > > > >It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e
> > > > >it's very
> > > > >lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
>
> > > > Picky picky.
>
> > > Facty facty !
>
> > > > I designed an air motor back when I was in school. You are missing
> > > > one big
> > > > advantage. The air-conditioning you are going to get will blow your
> > > > mind.
> > > > The amount of energy absorbed in expanding enough air to power a car
> > > > would
> > > > provide enough cooling for an entire beer truck.
>
> > > Utter nonsense.
>
> > > Graham
>
> > ??? Nonsense in what way? Compressed air gets cold when it expands.
>
> It's not used to provide AIR CONDITIONING !
>
> The air car is a cheap POS, not a luxury one.
>
> Graham- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The exhaust will be cold coming out of the engine. Run it through a
heater core just as is done now and, viola!, air conditioning.
The car is not only a POS but it won't work as hyped.
But what about those times when you don't want air conditioning, you want a
*heater* (it was 12F this morning :-)
daestrom
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797599 ] |
Tue, 11 March 2008 03:01 |
|
On Mar 10, 5:01=A0pm, "daestrom" <daestrom [at] NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com>
wrote:
> "Harry K" <turnkey4... [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:108f6f6e-69b7-499c-b36c-d88b5ef6d65f [at] s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 9, 5:47 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati... [at] hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Harry K wrote:
> > > Eeyore wrote:
> > > > ecarecar wrote:
> > > > > Eeyore wrote:
> > > > > >EconomicDemocracy Coop wrote:
>
> > > > > >>We've written before about the promising potential of compressed=
> > > > > >>air
> > > > > >>as the next energy storage medium for road cars, and it seems th=
e
> > > > > >>concept is starting to gather some serious momentum.
>
> > > > > >It's a MISERABLE way to store energy. It's very inefficient (i.e
> > > > > >it's very
> > > > > >lossy thermodynamically) and has poor energy density.
>
> > > > > Picky picky.
>
> > > > Facty facty !
>
> > > > > I designed an air motor back when I was in school. You are missing=
> > > > > one big
> > > > > advantage. The air-conditioning you are going to get will blow you=
r
> > > > > mind.
> > > > > The amount of energy absorbed in expanding enough air to power a c=
ar
> > > > > would
> > > > > provide enough cooling for an entire beer truck.
>
> > > > Utter nonsense.
>
> > > > Graham
>
> > > ??? Nonsense in what way? Compressed air gets cold when it expands.
>
> > It's not used to provide AIR CONDITIONING !
>
> > The air car is a cheap POS, not a luxury one.
>
> > Graham- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The exhaust will be cold coming out of the engine. =A0Run it through a
> heater core just as is done now and, viola!, air conditioning.
>
> The car is not only a POS but it won't work as hyped.
>
> But what about those times when you don't want air conditioning, you want =
a
> *heater* (it was 12F this morning :-)
>
> daestrom- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just a minor engineering problem. You take the exhaust out of the
first heater core - it will now be warm, and run it through another
core which puts out more warm air....or sumpin like that. Makes as
much sense as the MDI wet dream.
Harry K
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797680 ] |
Wed, 12 March 2008 00:34 |
|
BobG <bobgardner [at] aol.com> wrote in
news:42cd33c4-2c91-4ae2-a3ea-3ed676fcbc38 [at] b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> On Mar 8, 9:05�pm, EconomicDemocracy Coop <econdemocr... [at] gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Zero Pollution
>> compressed-air motor, which runs to 35 mph entirely on air, or uses a
>> trickle of petrol to heat and compress more air to reach higher
>> speeds up to 90 mph. It'll cost next to nothing to run (how do 30,000
>> km service intervals sound?), have a range of up to 1000 miles, and
>> retail for well under $20,000.
> =============================================I think this should say
> 'costs next to nothing to maintain', because the
> service interval doesnt have much to do with the cost per mile does
> it?
> I think you'll find that the electricity consumed by the monster
> compressor
> that fills those 5000psi carbon fiber tanks will make the cost per
> mile
> more than the same size car on gas. Have any real figures on cost to
> operate?
>
Wow! 5000 PSI! What happens in an accident and the tank
ruptures? That would be a sight to behold (from about a mile
away).
Also, compressed air tanks eventually fatige from the repeated
fill and empty cycles. Just ask a scuba diver. So what happens
at the tank's end of life? And how do you force the tank out
of service so some idiot doesn't keep using it and eventually
ruptures it??
On another note. How does the efficency of air compare to
steam power. HOw about having a pressure vessel with an
imersion heater in it. Partialy fill the vessel with water
and then use the heater to make high pressure steam.
Run the car off that.
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797685 ] |
Wed, 12 March 2008 01:19 |
|
"Gordon" <gonzo [at] alltomyself.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A5EA89C6A95Cgreederxprtnet [at] 199.45.49.11...
> Wow! 5000 PSI! What happens in an accident and the tank
> ruptures? That would be a sight to behold (from about a mile
> away).
No worse than the damage that can be done by the fuel from a ruptured
gasoline tank. I think that air-driven cars are a silly idea, but any time you
carry hundreds of thousands of BTUs around in a vehicle (air tank, fuel tank,
battery or...) a crash can possibly have spectactular consequences.
>
> On another note. How does the efficency of air compare to
> steam power. HOw about having a pressure vessel with an
> imersion heater in it. Partialy fill the vessel with water
> and then use the heater to make high pressure steam.
> Run the car off that.
Nothing is new under the sun, especially your idea of a pressure vessel
partially full of superheated water. Replace your proposed electric heater with
an external fire, and you have just described an early steam boiler. That
system will supply you with very impressive horsepower ... briefly.
Vaughn
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797750 ] |
Wed, 12 March 2008 06:06 |
|
This TATA business has given new credibility to a scam that's been
going on since 1996. In their "Investors" blurb there's mention of
deals with some Spanish companies that have invested in it. Guess what
sort of companies these are? CONSTRUCTION companies...in Spain these
are desperate to launder tons of illegal income and "investing" in
this sort of thing helps them sort out the piles of untaxed cash.
|
|
|
| Re: Business Week: Air-Powered Green Car in U.S. in 2010 [message #797827 ] |
Wed, 12 March 2008 22:58 |
|
In article <47D47ABE.57EE2D0C [at] hotmail.com>,
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Vaughn Simon wrote:
>
>> The rules of physics limit the maximum number of BTUs of energy
>
>Oh PLEASE can you Americans get up to date and start using Joules ?
No. We might consider using the ton (of cooling) if you ask nicely.
>BTUs are meaningless to most of the world !
Please, the British have almost a thousand years of history since
William the Conqueror, all of which you claim to remember... you can't
remember a lousy unit which is probably less than 200 years old?
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
|
|
|
Gehe zu:
aktuelle Zeit: Tue Dec 2 09:10:23 CET 2008
Insgesamt benötigte Zeit, um die Seite zu erzeugen: 0.13187 Sekunden |
