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General » rec.autos.driving » How speed limits are actually set.
| How speed limits are actually set. [message #793937] |
Mon, 11 February 2008 17:10 |
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http://www.eagletribune.com/punewsnh/local_story_042055502.h tml
Police chief: Lower speed limit is illegal
By John Basilesco
Staff Writer
WINDHAM . Police Chief Gerald Lewis said the 25 mph speed limit on
Westchester Road recently set by selectmen is illegal and unenforceable.
Selectmen set the lower-than-normal speed limit on a motion by Selectman
Bruce Breton after accepting the street as a town road. The vote was 3-2
in favor.
Both Lewis and fire Chief Tom McPherson, who leads the town's Highway
Safety Committee, said the speed limit won't hold up in court if it's
ever challenged because the selectmen's decision needs to be backed up
with a traffic study.
Under state law, a residential street is supposed to be posted for 30 mph
unless a traffic study determines that a lower or higher speed is
warranted, Lewis said.
"It's not that we oppose a speed limit of 25," McPherson said, "but
there's a process that should be followed. Otherwise, it could be
successfully challenged in court."
<...>
"I don't care about the bureaucratic stuff," Breton said. "If residents
in town want a new road to be 25 mph, I will try to do that when a new
road is being accepted. If it gets people to slow down and saves just one
life, I think it's worth it."
The fact that the town doesn't have any sidewalks is one of the reasons
Breton said he wants the lower speed limits.
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #793943 ] |
Mon, 11 February 2008 19:43 |
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On Feb 11, 9:10 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
wrote:
> http://www.eagletribune.com/punewsnh/local_story_042055502.h tml
>
> Police chief: Lower speed limit is illegal
> By John Basilesco
> Staff Writer
>
> WINDHAM . Police Chief Gerald Lewis said the 25 mph speed limit on
> Westchester Road recently set by selectmen is illegal and unenforceable.
>
> Selectmen set the lower-than-normal speed limit on a motion by Selectman
> Bruce Breton after accepting the street as a town road. The vote was 3-2
> in favor.
>
> Both Lewis and fire Chief Tom McPherson, who leads the town's Highway
> Safety Committee, said the speed limit won't hold up in court if it's
> ever challenged because the selectmen's decision needs to be backed up
> with a traffic study.
>
> Under state law, a residential street is supposed to be posted for 30 mph
> unless a traffic study determines that a lower or higher speed is
> warranted, Lewis said.
>
> "It's not that we oppose a speed limit of 25," McPherson said, "but
> there's a process that should be followed. Otherwise, it could be
> successfully challenged in court."
>
> <...>
>
> "I don't care about the bureaucratic stuff," Breton said. "If residents
> in town want a new road to be 25 mph, I will try to do that when a new
> road is being accepted. If it gets people to slow down and saves just one
> life, I think it's worth it."
>
> The fact that the town doesn't have any sidewalks is one of the reasons
> Breton said he wants the lower speed limits.
The speed problem has been studied for years and there is no question
25 is safer than 30, There's your study, now let the lower limit stand.
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #793948 ] |
Mon, 11 February 2008 21:27 |
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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:43:01 -0800 (PST), "Speeders & Drunk Drivers
are MURDERERS" <betaxxx [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>The speed problem has been studied for years and there is no question
>25 is safer than 30, There's your study, now let the lower limit stand.
Provide some cites or shut your piehole, you moron.
--
Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS (a.k.a. SFB) admits to being
a deadly speeder, psychopath and criminal coddler:
"> Have you ever driven a car faster than the legal speed limit?
Yes, but never deliberately. In fact i got a speeding ticket about 5
years ago for doing 41 in a 25. I just about kicked the cops teeth in
cause i was sure he was lying. No way the SL on this wide open
stretch could be 25, i thought."
Pride of America (c.k.a. Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend/
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE/Speeders And Drunk Drivers
Are Murderers (SADDAM)), 10/3/2002
Message-ID: <3c1753f7.0210030916.7b6f5dff [at] posting.google.com>
http://tinyurl.com/5u4wg
Proof that POA is LBMHB/lbVH/SADDAM:
See the following: http://tinyurl.com/ahphj
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #793952 ] |
Mon, 11 February 2008 21:35 |
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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:27:09 -0500, necromancer did not complete his
thoughts:
>On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:43:01 -0800 (PST), "Speeders & Drunk Drivers
>are MURDERERS" <betaxxx [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>The speed problem has been studied for years and there is no question
>>25 is safer than 30, There's your study, now let the lower limit stand.
>
>Provide some cites or shut your piehole, you moron.
BTW, shithead, how does it feel that even calrog can win an award that
you were unable to win when you were nominated for it a few months
ago?
Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS (a.k.a. SFB) admits to being
a deadly speeder, psychopath and criminal coddler:
"> Have you ever driven a car faster than the legal speed limit?
Yes, but never deliberately. In fact i got a speeding ticket about 5
years ago for doing 41 in a 25. I just about kicked the cops teeth in
cause i was sure he was lying. No way the SL on this wide open
stretch could be 25, i thought."
Pride of America (c.k.a. Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend/
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE/Speeders And Drunk Drivers
Are Murderers (SADDAM)), 10/3/2002
Message-ID: <3c1753f7.0210030916.7b6f5dff [at] posting.google.com>
http://tinyurl.com/5u4wg
Proof that POA is LBMHB/lbVH/SADDAM:
See the following: http://tinyurl.com/ahphj
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #793963 ] |
Mon, 11 February 2008 23:08 |
|
"Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:o7CdncyCiaAY7i3anZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>
> http://www.eagletribune.com/punewsnh/local_story_042055502.h tml
>
> Police chief: Lower speed limit is illegal
> By John Basilesco
> Staff Writer
>
> WINDHAM . Police Chief Gerald Lewis said the 25 mph speed limit on
> Westchester Road recently set by selectmen is illegal and unenforceable.
It seems to me that the Police Chief is throwing his weight around. You
clipped out - "Lewis said his department is equipped to do a traffic study
to see if a speed limit below 30 mph is warranted."
I think he feels left out. I wondered what sort of study the law requires? I
am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and I did not even stay at a
Holiday Inn last night, however, I did read the Vermont law and it seem
pretty ambiguous. See
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=23 &Chapter=013&Section=01007.
The way I read this, the City Council was within its rights to set a 25 mph
speed limit. And for sure the statute doesn't even mention 30 mph. And for
sure they say:
"Lack of evidence of a traffic and engineering study will not invalidate a
local speed limit ordinance as adopted or amended under this section after
five years following the day on which the speed limit ordinance took
effect."
So if they pass the ordinance, no matter what else happens, the speed limit
is valid five years after the ordinance is passed.
I understand that lower than reasonable speed limits upset people. However,
this is a sub-division street, and the people who live on the street want a
lower speed limit. This is not something that is going to affect the general
population. I looked up Westchester Road, Windham, NH on Google Maps. It is
about half a mile long. It appears that to be useful as a shortcut for
people trying to cross over to Bear Hill Road from Lowell Road. I suspect
this is the source of the desire of the residents of Westchester Road for a
lower speed limit. I would guess people are cutting through and putting a
lot of extra traffic on the road. Having lived in a sub-division where my
street was used as a short cut between major roads, I can sympathize with
the people wanting a lower speed limit. I am not sure how you balance the
needs of some people with the needs of the general community. It seems like
this is the job of the local politicians. Personally, if I lived on the
street, I would be OK with a vigorously enforced 35 mph speed limit. I
suspect this would be a lot more effective at controlling traffic than an
unenforced 25 mph speed limit. Instead of throwing his weight around (and
apparently not fully understanding the law), the Chief should have offered a
compromise - vigorous enforcement of a properly set speed limit.
Ed
> Selectmen set the lower-than-normal speed limit on a motion by Selectman
> Bruce Breton after accepting the street as a town road. The vote was 3-2
> in favor.
>
> Both Lewis and fire Chief Tom McPherson, who leads the town's Highway
> Safety Committee, said the speed limit won't hold up in court if it's
> ever challenged because the selectmen's decision needs to be backed up
> with a traffic study.
>
> Under state law, a residential street is supposed to be posted for 30 mph
> unless a traffic study determines that a lower or higher speed is
> warranted, Lewis said.
>
> "It's not that we oppose a speed limit of 25," McPherson said, "but
> there's a process that should be followed. Otherwise, it could be
> successfully challenged in court."
>
> <...>
>
> "I don't care about the bureaucratic stuff," Breton said. "If residents
> in town want a new road to be 25 mph, I will try to do that when a new
> road is being accepted. If it gets people to slow down and saves just one
> life, I think it's worth it."
>
> The fact that the town doesn't have any sidewalks is one of the reasons
> Breton said he wants the lower speed limits.
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #793966 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 00:13 |
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On Feb 11, 2:08=A0pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi... [at] mindspring.com> wrote:
> "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:o7CdncyCiaAY7i3anZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>
>
>
> > http://www.eagletribune.com/punewsnh/local_story_042055502.h tml
>
> > Police chief: Lower speed limit is illegal
> > By John Basilesco
> > Staff Writer
>
> > WINDHAM . Police Chief Gerald Lewis said the 25 mph speed limit on
> > Westchester Road recently set by selectmen is illegal and unenforceable.=
>
> It seems to me that the Police Chief is throwing his weight around. You
> clipped out - "Lewis said his department is equipped to do a traffic study=
> to see if a speed limit below 30 mph is warranted."
>
> I think he feels left out. I wondered what sort of study the law requires?=
I
> am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and I did not even stay at a
> Holiday Inn last night, however, I did read the Vermont law and it seem
> pretty ambiguous. Seehttp://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?T=
itle=3D23&Chapter=3D....
> The way I read this, the City Council was within its rights to set a 25 mp=
h
> speed limit. And for sure the statute doesn't even mention 30 mph. And for=
> sure they say:
>
> "Lack of evidence of a traffic and engineering study will not invalidate a=
> local speed limit ordinance as adopted or amended under this section after=
> five years following the day on which the speed limit ordinance took
> effect."
>
> So if they pass the ordinance, no matter what else happens, the speed limi=
t
> is valid five years after the ordinance is passed.
>
> I understand that lower than reasonable speed limits upset people. However=
,
> this is a sub-division street, and the people who live on the street want =
a
> lower speed limit. This is not something that is going to affect the gener=
al
> population. I looked up Westchester Road, Windham, NH on Google Maps. It i=
s
> about half a mile long. It appears that to be useful as a shortcut for
> people trying to cross over to Bear Hill Road from Lowell Road. I suspect
> this is the source of the desire of the residents of Westchester Road for =
a
> lower speed limit. I would guess people are cutting through and putting a
> lot of extra traffic on the road. Having lived in a sub-division where my
> street was used as a short cut between major roads, I can sympathize with
> the people wanting a lower speed limit. I am not sure how you balance the
> needs of some people with the needs of the general community. It seems lik=
e
> this is the job of the local politicians. Personally, if I lived on the
> street, I would be OK with a vigorously enforced 35 mph speed limit. I
> suspect this would be a lot more effective at controlling traffic than an
> unenforced 25 mph speed limit. =A0Instead of throwing his weight around (a=
nd
> apparently not fully understanding the law), the Chief should have offered=
a
> compromise - vigorous enforcement of a properly set speed limit.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
> > Selectmen set the lower-than-normal speed limit on a motion by Selectman=
> > Bruce Breton after accepting the street as a town road. The vote was 3-2=
> > in favor.
>
> > Both Lewis and fire Chief Tom McPherson, who leads the town's Highway
> > Safety Committee, said the speed limit won't hold up in court if it's
> > ever challenged because the selectmen's decision needs to be backed up
> > with a traffic study.
>
> > Under state law, a residential street is supposed to be posted for 30 mp=
h
> > unless a traffic study determines that a lower or higher speed is
> > warranted, Lewis said.
>
> > "It's not that we oppose a speed limit of 25," McPherson said, "but
> > there's a process that should be followed. Otherwise, it could be
> > successfully challenged in court."
>
> > <...>
>
> > "I don't care about the bureaucratic stuff," Breton said. "If residents
> > in town want a new road to be 25 mph, I will try to do that when a new
> > road is being accepted. If it gets people to slow down and saves just on=
e
> > life, I think it's worth it."
>
> > The fact that the town doesn't have any sidewalks is one of the reasons
> > Breton said he wants the lower speed limits.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
If the residents of that section want a lower speed,
I suggest that they request the installation of speed bumps.
Usually, in such cases, when the residents end up getting most of the
tickets, so let's go with the council! (snicker)
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #793985 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 04:59 |
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> The speed problem has been studied for years and there is no question
> 25 is safer than 30, There's your study, now let the lower limit stand
Then 20 is safer than 25
Then 15 is safer than 20
Then 10 is safer than 15
Then 5 is safer than 10
Then 0 is safer than....
See moron, I've taken your argument to it's logical conclusion. Are
you smart enough to figure out what that conclusion is?
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794000 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 06:59 |
|
In article <13r1holamp7bt1b [at] corp.supernews.com>, C. E. White wrote:
>
> "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:o7CdncyCiaAY7i3anZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>
>> http://www.eagletribune.com/punewsnh/local_story_042055502.h tml
>>
>> Police chief: Lower speed limit is illegal
>> By John Basilesco
>> Staff Writer
>>
>> WINDHAM . Police Chief Gerald Lewis said the 25 mph speed limit on
>> Westchester Road recently set by selectmen is illegal and unenforceable.
>
> It seems to me that the Police Chief is throwing his weight around. You
> clipped out - "Lewis said his department is equipped to do a traffic study
> to see if a speed limit below 30 mph is warranted."
>
> I think he feels left out. I wondered what sort of study the law requires? I
> am not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and I did not even stay at a
> Holiday Inn last night, however, I did read the Vermont law and it seem
> pretty ambiguous. See
> http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=23 &Chapter=013&Section=01007.
> The way I read this, the City Council was within its rights to set a 25 mph
> speed limit. And for sure the statute doesn't even mention 30 mph. And for
> sure they say:
<sniP>
Damn, the point goes right over your head.... the point is that the whole
process is POLITICAL and that the technical aspects are irrelevant. You
seem to agree that's what's being done, you're only arguing it's a good
thing...
Well, we've had that debate around here a few hundred thousand times it
seems. Political speed limits are not a good thing, IMO but I don't feel
like re-hashing it at the moment.
This is to point out to the people who deny that speed limits are set
politically that it does happen.
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794008 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 08:38 |
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> Then 20 is safer than 25
> Then 15 is safer than 20
> Then 10 is safer than 15
> Then 5 is safer than 10
> Then 0 is safer than....
It's safer than going in reverse!
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794009 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 13:16 |
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>> Then 10 is safer than 15
>> Then 5 is safer than 10
>> Then 0 is safer than....
>
> It's safer than going in reverse!
Unfortunately, that is logical. The last part, that is. :) -Dave
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794010 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 13:44 |
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"Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0YidnZr8o8ZQqCzanZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> Damn, the point goes right over your head.... the point is that the
> whole
> process is POLITICAL and that the technical aspects are irrelevant.
> You
> seem to agree that's what's being done, you're only arguing it's a
> good
> thing...
Since when hasn't the setting of speed limits been a political thing?
Remember, I think the whole 85 percentile thing is so much hogwash.
It is just another political thing - an arbitrary number that is
supposed to be determined from an impossible to properly conduct
study.
> Well, we've had that debate around here a few hundred thousand times
> it
> seems. Political speed limits are not a good thing, IMO but I don't
> feel
> like re-hashing it at the moment.
All speed limits are a political thing. The mere act of deciding to
have speed limits at all means they are all a policitcal thing.You'd
be better off recognizing that instead of pretending there is some
magic scientific number you can use to justify a particular speed
limit for a particular road.
> This is to point out to the people who deny that speed limits are
> set
> politically that it does happen.
I don't deny that speed limits are politically set. They all are, even
ones that are supposedly set by a traffic study. Sometimes they are
set by legislative bodies directly, and sometimes they are set by
internal politics inside bureaucracies as authorized by legislative
bodies. The best we can hope for is that they are fairly set.
I actually believe the 25 mph speed limit on the particularly street
in the article is too low. However, I don't think the Chief of Police
took the proper course of action. If he wants to make laws, he should
run for office. If he wants to interpret laws, he should go to law
school and become a judge. His job is to enforce laws. And I don't
think it is a good idea for the enforcement agency to conduct the
traffic study to determine the correct speed limit.
Ed
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794017 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 15:07 |
|
In article <47b1953b$1 [at] kcnews01>, C. E. White wrote:
>
> "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:0YidnZr8o8ZQqCzanZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>
>> Damn, the point goes right over your head.... the point is that the
>> whole
>> process is POLITICAL and that the technical aspects are irrelevant.
>> You
>> seem to agree that's what's being done, you're only arguing it's a
>> good
>> thing...
>
> Since when hasn't the setting of speed limits been a political thing?
> Remember, I think the whole 85 percentile thing is so much hogwash.
> It is just another political thing - an arbitrary number that is
> supposed to be determined from an impossible to properly conduct
> study.
Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? The problem is that it is
a political thing, but some people deny that it is. Insisting that the
number isn't being pulled from someone's ass. It is pulled from someone's
ass.
As far as the 85th percentile method goes, what harms the study is
decades of idiotic underposting. This is why multiple studies may need to
be done over a period of time using the results each time to set a new
speed limit. Eventually, the correct 85th percentile speed will be
found.
>> Well, we've had that debate around here a few hundred thousand times
>> it
>> seems. Political speed limits are not a good thing, IMO but I don't
>> feel
>> like re-hashing it at the moment.
>
> All speed limits are a political thing. The mere act of deciding to
> have speed limits at all means they are all a policitcal thing.You'd
> be better off recognizing that instead of pretending there is some
> magic scientific number you can use to justify a particular speed
> limit for a particular road.
Do you want the next aircraft you are a passenger in to be politically
designed with no regard for technical details by morons who were chosen
because of their social connections in a popularity contest? Do you?
I prefer best known engineering methods than a bunch of lawyers pulling
feel good numbers out of their ass. But many pretend that number out of
the lawyer's ass is somehow based in engineering reality and has
something to do with 'safety'.
> I actually believe the 25 mph speed limit on the particularly street
> in the article is too low. However, I don't think the Chief of Police
> took the proper course of action. If he wants to make laws, he should
> run for office. If he wants to interpret laws, he should go to law
> school and become a judge. His job is to enforce laws. And I don't
> think it is a good idea for the enforcement agency to conduct the
> traffic study to determine the correct speed limit.
When it comes to traffic laws, cops are legislator, enforcer, and judge
effectively. Or maybe that's something else you haven't noticed about the
vague tool laws and the adminstrative courts that now handle much of it.
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794019 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 15:43 |
|
"Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PvOdnUuLbqG6NSzanZ2dnUVZ_qygnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
> In article <47b1953b$1 [at] kcnews01>, C. E. White wrote:
>>
>> "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:0YidnZr8o8ZQqCzanZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>
>>> Damn, the point goes right over your head.... the point is that
>>> the
>>> whole
>>> process is POLITICAL and that the technical aspects are
>>> irrelevant.
>>> You
>>> seem to agree that's what's being done, you're only arguing it's a
>>> good
>>> thing...
>>
>> Since when hasn't the setting of speed limits been a political
>> thing?
>> Remember, I think the whole 85 percentile thing is so much hogwash.
>> It is just another political thing - an arbitrary number that is
>> supposed to be determined from an impossible to properly conduct
>> study.
>
> Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? The problem is that
> it is
> a political thing, but some people deny that it is. Insisting that
> the
> number isn't being pulled from someone's ass. It is pulled from
> someone's
> ass.
>
> As far as the 85th percentile method goes, what harms the study is
> decades of idiotic underposting. This is why multiple studies may
> need to
> be done over a period of time using the results each time to set a
> new
> speed limit. Eventually, the correct 85th percentile speed will be
> found.
>
>>> Well, we've had that debate around here a few hundred thousand
>>> times
>>> it
>>> seems. Political speed limits are not a good thing, IMO but I
>>> don't
>>> feel
>>> like re-hashing it at the moment.
>>
>> All speed limits are a political thing. The mere act of deciding to
>> have speed limits at all means they are all a policitcal
>> thing.You'd
>> be better off recognizing that instead of pretending there is some
>> magic scientific number you can use to justify a particular speed
>> limit for a particular road.
>
> Do you want the next aircraft you are a passenger in to be
> politically
> designed with no regard for technical details by morons who were
> chosen
> because of their social connections in a popularity contest? Do you?
Surely you understand that both cars and airplanes are to a certain
extent designed in response to rules prologated by goverment agencies.
The locations of airports, security measures related to air traffic,
the routes planes can fly, and the people that direct flights are all
heavily regulated / administered by various goverment agencies. Heck
air traffic controllers are goverment employees. So in effect any time
you fly, your safety is heavily influenced "by morons who were chosen
because of their social connections in a popularity contest."
> I prefer best known engineering methods than a bunch of lawyers
> pulling
> feel good numbers out of their ass. But many pretend that number out
> of
> the lawyer's ass is somehow based in engineering reality and has
> something to do with 'safety'.
I would also, BUT, that is not reality. And I wouldn't agree that the
85th percentile rule is a good engineering practice. It is just
something engineers pull out of their ass because it is easier than
admitting that the problem of setting correct speed limits is very
difficult. I don't really want to rehash the whole 85 percentile
thing. To me it is just an excuse for sloppy engineering. I know a lot
of people would like to use it as a way of calling for higher speed
limits. I am actually for higher speed limits in many cases, but using
the 85th percentile rule is the wrong way to justify them. If you base
your arguments on bad science, you shouldn't be surprised when your
conclusions are called into question.
>> I actually believe the 25 mph speed limit on the particularly
>> street
>> in the article is too low. However, I don't think the Chief of
>> Police
>> took the proper course of action. If he wants to make laws, he
>> should
>> run for office. If he wants to interpret laws, he should go to law
>> school and become a judge. His job is to enforce laws. And I don't
>> think it is a good idea for the enforcement agency to conduct the
>> traffic study to determine the correct speed limit.
>
> When it comes to traffic laws, cops are legislator, enforcer, and
> judge
> effectively. Or maybe that's something else you haven't noticed
> about the
> vague tool laws and the adminstrative courts that now handle much of
> it.
Unfortunately you are right about the police and enforcement of
traffic laws.
Ed
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| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794025 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 16:04 |
|
In article <47b1b128$1 [at] kcnews01>, C. E. White wrote:
> Surely you understand that both cars and airplanes are to a certain
> extent designed in response to rules prologated by goverment agencies.
> The locations of airports, security measures related to air traffic,
> the routes planes can fly, and the people that direct flights are all
> heavily regulated / administered by various goverment agencies. Heck
> air traffic controllers are goverment employees. So in effect any time
> you fly, your safety is heavily influenced "by morons who were chosen
> because of their social connections in a popularity contest."
I thought you would try to mask it that way. Government regulations on
designs as bad as they can be are usually minimums, engineers are free to
exceed the regulations for better performance. On speed limits, instead
of what is safe we get a number pulled from some lawyer turned political
office holder's ass that feels good to him. That isn't safety, that's
nonsense. It would be as if that lawyer decided the numeric thickness of
your car's brake pads to a number he thought felt good. Or maybe the
tread depth of your new tires... maybe because he thinks tires should
last longer he specifies a really deep tread. Now your car wiggles as you
drive because of the tall tread blocks... law is the law its for your
benefit!
>> I prefer best known engineering methods than a bunch of lawyers pulling
>> feel good numbers out of their ass. But many pretend that number out of
>> the lawyer's ass is somehow based in engineering reality and has
>> something to do with 'safety'.
> I would also, BUT, that is not reality. And I wouldn't agree that the
> 85th percentile rule is a good engineering practice. It is just
> something engineers pull out of their ass because it is easier than
> admitting that the problem of setting correct speed limits is very
> difficult.
Measured numbers don't come out of some one's ass. The 85th percentile
number is not arbitary, it's measured. Why it's the 85th instead of say
the 80th is due to the research that shows the break point at the 85th.
> I don't really want to rehash the whole 85 percentile
> thing. To me it is just an excuse for sloppy engineering. I know a lot
> of people would like to use it as a way of calling for higher speed
> limits.
Pulled out of the ass method is just as effective for higher limits is it
is for lower ones. However government's interest is in creating and
maximizing law breakers not minimizing law breakers.
As for sloppy engineering, what do you find to be tighter and neater?
What method? The table method from 1928 based upon the performance of a
model T? The table method could work if one updated every year by testing
a very wide sample of vehicles. It's a lot of work to keep the tables up
to date. It's far easier to measure traffic. You get the same information
with a lot less work.
>I am actually for higher speed limits in many cases, but using
> the 85th percentile rule is the wrong way to justify them. If you base
> your arguments on bad science, you shouldn't be surprised when your
> conclusions are called into question.
You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what? Compared
to some lawyer turned politician pulling a number out of his ass? Where's
your better method? What do you have to offer as a better practice?
There is nothing to suggest the 85th percentile method is 'bad science'
or in any way should call my conclusions suspect. You're just saying that
for the sake of diverting the discussion and imagary.
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794026 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 16:26 |
|
"C. E. White" <cewhite3 [at] removemindspring.com> wrote in
news:47b1953b$1 [at] kcnews01:
> I actually believe the 25 mph speed limit on the particularly street
> in the article is too low. However, I don't think the Chief of Police
> took the proper course of action. If he wants to make laws, he should
> run for office. If he wants to interpret laws, he should go to law
> school and become a judge. His job is to enforce laws. And I don't
> think it is a good idea for the enforcement agency to conduct the
> traffic study to determine the correct speed limit.
>
> Ed
>
>
I smell conflict of interest;
the agency receiving revenue from speeding fines setting the speed
limits...hmmmm. Stinky.
Does your town have any ethics codes? It's very possible he violated some
of them.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794029 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 16:33 |
|
"C. E. White" <cewhite3 [at] removemindspring.com> wrote in
news:47b1b128$1 [at] kcnews01:
>
> "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:PvOdnUuLbqG6NSzanZ2dnUVZ_qygnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>> In article <47b1953b$1 [at] kcnews01>, C. E. White wrote:
>>>
>>> "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:0YidnZr8o8ZQqCzanZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d [at] comcast.com...
>>>
>>>> Damn, the point goes right over your head.... the point is that
>>>> the
>>>> whole
>>>> process is POLITICAL and that the technical aspects are
>>>> irrelevant.
>>>> You
>>>> seem to agree that's what's being done, you're only arguing it's a
>>>> good
>>>> thing...
>>>
>>> Since when hasn't the setting of speed limits been a political
>>> thing?
>>> Remember, I think the whole 85 percentile thing is so much hogwash.
>>> It is just another political thing - an arbitrary number that is
>>> supposed to be determined from an impossible to properly conduct
>>> study.
>>
>> Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? The problem is that
>> it is
>> a political thing, but some people deny that it is. Insisting that
>> the
>> number isn't being pulled from someone's ass. It is pulled from
>> someone's
>> ass.
>>
>> As far as the 85th percentile method goes, what harms the study is
>> decades of idiotic underposting. This is why multiple studies may
>> need to
>> be done over a period of time using the results each time to set a
>> new
>> speed limit. Eventually, the correct 85th percentile speed will be
>> found.
>>
>>>> Well, we've had that debate around here a few hundred thousand
>>>> times
>>>> it
>>>> seems. Political speed limits are not a good thing, IMO but I
>>>> don't
>>>> feel
>>>> like re-hashing it at the moment.
>>>
>>> All speed limits are a political thing. The mere act of deciding to
>>> have speed limits at all means they are all a policitcal
>>> thing.You'd
>>> be better off recognizing that instead of pretending there is some
>>> magic scientific number you can use to justify a particular speed
>>> limit for a particular road.
>>
>> Do you want the next aircraft you are a passenger in to be
>> politically
>> designed with no regard for technical details by morons who were
>> chosen
>> because of their social connections in a popularity contest? Do you?
>
> Surely you understand that both cars and airplanes are to a certain
> extent designed in response to rules prologated by goverment agencies.
> The locations of airports, security measures related to air traffic,
> the routes planes can fly, and the people that direct flights are all
> heavily regulated / administered by various goverment agencies. Heck
> air traffic controllers are goverment employees. So in effect any time
> you fly, your safety is heavily influenced "by morons who were chosen
> because of their social connections in a popularity contest."
>
>> I prefer best known engineering methods than a bunch of lawyers
>> pulling
>> feel good numbers out of their ass. But many pretend that number out
>> of
>> the lawyer's ass is somehow based in engineering reality and has
>> something to do with 'safety'.
>
> I would also, BUT, that is not reality. And I wouldn't agree that the
> 85th percentile rule is a good engineering practice. It is just
> something engineers pull out of their ass because it is easier than
> admitting that the problem of setting correct speed limits is very
> difficult. I don't really want to rehash the whole 85 percentile
> thing. To me it is just an excuse for sloppy engineering. I know a lot
> of people would like to use it as a way of calling for higher speed
> limits. I am actually for higher speed limits in many cases, but using
> the 85th percentile rule is the wrong way to justify them.
Why is that?
Do you want to pick a "standard driver",and set the speed according to what
HE drives a road? Or do you believe that "science" can calculate how fast
is "safe" for some percentage of drivers?
Is it just because you don't like a set number for the percentile?
> If you base
> your arguments on bad science, you shouldn't be surprised when your
> conclusions are called into question.
"Science" cannot take into consideration the WIDE variation in
drivers,along with varying road conditions,or constantly improving autos.
>
>>> I actually believe the 25 mph speed limit on the particularly
>>> street
>>> in the article is too low. However, I don't think the Chief of
>>> Police
>>> took the proper course of action. If he wants to make laws, he
>>> should
>>> run for office. If he wants to interpret laws, he should go to law
>>> school and become a judge. His job is to enforce laws. And I don't
>>> think it is a good idea for the enforcement agency to conduct the
>>> traffic study to determine the correct speed limit.
>>
>> When it comes to traffic laws, cops are legislator, enforcer, and
>> judge
>> effectively. Or maybe that's something else you haven't noticed
>> about the
>> vague tool laws and the adminstrative courts that now handle much of
>> it.
>
> Unfortunately you are right about the police and enforcement of
> traffic laws.
>
> Ed
>
>
what "percentage" do YOU think they should use? 70,90,65,95?
the 85th percentile allows a majority of travellers to fall within "law-
abiding",yet provides for the 15% who are scofflaws,the worst of the group.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794033 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 18:16 |
|
On Feb 12, 10:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
wrote:
>
> You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
> you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what?
Compared to good science.
The 85th percentile method is based on the assumption that the
majority of drivers will choose a reasonable and safe velocity, which
makes the basis wholly unscientific.
http://www.motorists.org/mi/85th.html
-----
- gpsman
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794035 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 18:49 |
|
In article
<615c7875-d43e-4848-918e-1d5a340d5195 [at] b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
gpsman <gpsman [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 10:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
> wrote:
> >
> > You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
> > you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what?
>
> Compared to good science.
>
> The 85th percentile method is based on the assumption that the
> majority of drivers will choose a reasonable and safe velocity, which
> makes the basis wholly unscientific.
> http://www.motorists.org/mi/85th.html
Incorrect. The 85th percentile method was developed from studies which
*demonstrated* that barring hidden hazards 85% of drivers will choose to
drive at or below a reasonable and safe velocity.
> -----
>
> - gpsman
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794037 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 20:06 |
|
On Feb 12, 7:04=A0am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
wrote:
> In article <47b1b128$1 [at] kcnews01>, C. E. White wrote:
> > Surely you understand that both cars and airplanes are to a certain
> > extent designed in response to rules prologated by goverment agencies.
> > The locations of airports, security measures related to air traffic,
> > the routes planes can fly, and the people that direct flights are all
> > heavily regulated / administered by various goverment agencies. Heck
> > air traffic controllers are goverment employees. So in effect any time
> > you fly, your safety is heavily =A0influenced "by morons who were chosen=
> > because of their social connections in a popularity contest."
>
> I thought you would try to mask it that way. Government regulations on
> designs as bad as they can be are usually minimums, engineers are free to
> exceed the regulations for better performance. On speed limits, instead
> of what is safe we get a number pulled from some lawyer turned political
> office holder's ass that feels good to him. That isn't safety, that's
> nonsense. It would be as if that lawyer decided the numeric thickness of
> your car's brake pads to a number he thought felt good. Or maybe the
> tread depth of your new tires... maybe because he thinks tires should
> last longer he specifies a really deep tread. Now your car wiggles as you
> drive because of the tall tread blocks... law is the law its for your
> benefit!
>
> >> I prefer best known engineering methods than a bunch of lawyers pulling=
> >> feel good numbers out of their ass. But many pretend that number out of=
> >> the lawyer's ass is somehow based in engineering reality and has
> >> something to do with 'safety'.
> > I would also, BUT, that is not reality. And I wouldn't agree that the
> > 85th percentile rule is a good engineering practice. It is just
> > something engineers pull out of their ass because it is easier than
> > admitting that the problem of setting correct speed limits is very
> > difficult.
>
> Measured numbers don't come out of some one's ass. The 85th percentile
> number is not arbitary, it's measured. Why it's the 85th instead of say
> the 80th is due to the research that shows the break point at the 85th.
>
> > I don't really want to rehash the whole 85 percentile
> > thing. To me it is just an excuse for sloppy engineering. I know a lot
> > of people would like to use it as a way of calling for higher speed
> > limits.
>
> Pulled out of the ass method is just as effective for higher limits is it
> is for lower ones. However government's interest is in creating and
> maximizing law breakers not minimizing law breakers.
>
> As for sloppy engineering, what do you find to be tighter and neater?
> What method? The table method from 1928 based upon the performance of a
> model T? The table method could work if one updated every year by testing
> a very wide sample of vehicles. It's a lot of work to keep the tables up
> to date. It's far easier to measure traffic. You get the same information
> with a lot less work.
>
> >I am actually for higher speed limits in many cases, but using
> > the 85th percentile rule is the wrong way to justify them. If you base
> > your arguments on bad science, you shouldn't be surprised when your
> > conclusions are called into question.
>
> You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
> you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what? Compared
> to some lawyer turned politician pulling a number out of his ass? Where's
> your better method? What do you have to offer as a better practice?
>
> There is nothing to suggest the 85th percentile method is 'bad science'
> or in any way should call my conclusions suspect. You're just saying that
> for the sake of diverting the discussion and imagary.
The 85th is pointless.
Safe Maximum Speed varies with weather, driver, road, wind, position
of sun, traffic flow, what's playing on the radio, passengers in
vehicle, fatigue of driver(s) and a whole bunch more. It is not
uncommon for a non-speeding driver to pass a speeding driver. This
whole discussion is pointless as it has no connection with realities
of safety.
(Just ask an experienced driver trained in risk assessment who has an
hour or so to explain it. That person may double the number of factors
I mentioned above.)
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794038 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 20:13 |
|
In article <c9745a70-fa4c-4e1f-9a2d-f4ba972c56fc [at] l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Studemania wrote:
> On Feb 12, 7:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
> wrote:
>> In article <47b1b128$1 [at] kcnews01>, C. E. White wrote:
>> > Surely you understand that both cars and airplanes are to a certain
>> > extent designed in response to rules prologated by goverment agencies.
>> > The locations of airports, security measures related to air traffic,
>> > the routes planes can fly, and the people that direct flights are all
>> > heavily regulated / administered by various goverment agencies. Heck
>> > air traffic controllers are goverment employees. So in effect any time
>> > you fly, your safety is heavily influenced "by morons who were chosen
>> > because of their social connections in a popularity contest."
>>
>> I thought you would try to mask it that way. Government regulations on
>> designs as bad as they can be are usually minimums, engineers are free to
>> exceed the regulations for better performance. On speed limits, instead
>> of what is safe we get a number pulled from some lawyer turned political
>> office holder's ass that feels good to him. That isn't safety, that's
>> nonsense. It would be as if that lawyer decided the numeric thickness of
>> your car's brake pads to a number he thought felt good. Or maybe the
>> tread depth of your new tires... maybe because he thinks tires should
>> last longer he specifies a really deep tread. Now your car wiggles as you
>> drive because of the tall tread blocks... law is the law its for your
>> benefit!
>>
>> >> I prefer best known engineering methods than a bunch of lawyers pulling
>> >> feel good numbers out of their ass. But many pretend that number out of
>> >> the lawyer's ass is somehow based in engineering reality and has
>> >> something to do with 'safety'.
>> > I would also, BUT, that is not reality. And I wouldn't agree that the
>> > 85th percentile rule is a good engineering practice. It is just
>> > something engineers pull out of their ass because it is easier than
>> > admitting that the problem of setting correct speed limits is very
>> > difficult.
>>
>> Measured numbers don't come out of some one's ass. The 85th percentile
>> number is not arbitary, it's measured. Why it's the 85th instead of say
>> the 80th is due to the research that shows the break point at the 85th.
>>
>> > I don't really want to rehash the whole 85 percentile
>> > thing. To me it is just an excuse for sloppy engineering. I know a lot
>> > of people would like to use it as a way of calling for higher speed
>> > limits.
>>
>> Pulled out of the ass method is just as effective for higher limits is it
>> is for lower ones. However government's interest is in creating and
>> maximizing law breakers not minimizing law breakers.
>>
>> As for sloppy engineering, what do you find to be tighter and neater?
>> What method? The table method from 1928 based upon the performance of a
>> model T? The table method could work if one updated every year by testing
>> a very wide sample of vehicles. It's a lot of work to keep the tables up
>> to date. It's far easier to measure traffic. You get the same information
>> with a lot less work.
>>
>> >I am actually for higher speed limits in many cases, but using
>> > the 85th percentile rule is the wrong way to justify them. If you base
>> > your arguments on bad science, you shouldn't be surprised when your
>> > conclusions are called into question.
>>
>> You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
>> you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what? Compared
>> to some lawyer turned politician pulling a number out of his ass? Where's
>> your better method? What do you have to offer as a better practice?
>>
>> There is nothing to suggest the 85th percentile method is 'bad science'
>> or in any way should call my conclusions suspect. You're just saying that
>> for the sake of diverting the discussion and imagary.
>
> The 85th is pointless.
> Safe Maximum Speed varies with weather, driver, road, wind, position
> of sun, traffic flow, what's playing on the radio, passengers in
> vehicle, fatigue of driver(s) and a whole bunch more. It is not
> uncommon for a non-speeding driver to pass a speeding driver. This
> whole discussion is pointless as it has no connection with realities
> of safety.
>
> (Just ask an experienced driver trained in risk assessment who has an
> hour or so to explain it. That person may double the number of factors
> I mentioned above.)
The 85th percentile is a good way to produce a legal maximum. The sign
isn't supposed to make the decisions for you. That's another problem with
the political nonsense too, its the idea that government is the parent
keeping people safe from themselves.
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794039 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 20:23 |
|
C. E. White wrote:
> Remember, I think the whole 85 percentile thing is so much hogwash.
It's supported by decades of study (both 85th and 90th percentile
speeds). The first such study was a meta-analysis from the university
of Indiana back in the late '50s or early '60s. I saw a reference to it
years ago, but I don't feel like trying to dig it out now.
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794051 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 22:18 |
|
On Feb 12, 2:23 pm, Arif Khokar <akhokar1... [at] wvu.edu> wrote:
> C. E. White wrote:
> > Remember, I think the whole 85 percentile thing is so much hogwash.
>
> It's supported by decades of study (both 85th and 90th percentile
> speeds). The first such study was a meta-analysis from the university
> of Indiana back in the late '50s or early '60s. I saw a reference to it
> years ago, but I don't feel like trying to dig it out now.
Then dig out one of the dozens that must have been conducted between
the late '50s and yesterday.
Shirley you don't mean to imply you're "familiar" with just one (and
the first one at that), but you lost it.
Dog ate it...?
-----
- gpsman
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794052 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 22:20 |
|
On Feb 12, 12:49 pm, Alan Baker <alangba... [at] telus.net> wrote:
> In article
> <615c7875-d43e-4848-918e-1d5a340d5... [at] b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>
> gpsman <gps... [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 12, 10:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
> > wrote:
>
> > > You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
> > > you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what?
>
> > Compared to good science.
>
> > The 85th percentile method is based on the assumption that the
> > majority of drivers will choose a reasonable and safe velocity, which
> > makes the basis wholly unscientific.
> >http://www.motorists.org/mi/85th.html
>
> Incorrect. The 85th percentile method was developed from studies which
> *demonstrated* that barring hidden hazards 85% of drivers will choose to
> drive at or below a reasonable and safe velocity.
But... you don't know which ones, or have any reference to them...?
Maybe you could just cite from memory the criteria used to determine
which was a safe velocity for which driver, and how that was qualified
and quantified...?
-----
- gpsman
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794057 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 22:51 |
|
In article
<11b1d680-de9d-462a-a75b-fb468d99c91c [at] z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
gpsman <gpsman [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 12:49 pm, Alan Baker <alangba... [at] telus.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <615c7875-d43e-4848-918e-1d5a340d5... [at] b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > gpsman <gps... [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 12, 10:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
> > > > you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what?
> >
> > > Compared to good science.
> >
> > > The 85th percentile method is based on the assumption that the
> > > majority of drivers will choose a reasonable and safe velocity, which
> > > makes the basis wholly unscientific.
> > >http://www.motorists.org/mi/85th.html
> >
> > Incorrect. The 85th percentile method was developed from studies which
> > *demonstrated* that barring hidden hazards 85% of drivers will choose to
> > drive at or below a reasonable and safe velocity.
>
> But... you don't know which ones, or have any reference to them...?
I can look them up. But not right now.
>
> Maybe you could just cite from memory the criteria used to determine
> which was a safe velocity for which driver, and how that was qualified
> and quantified...?
Not from memory, no. But looking at it logically, you examine rates of
accident involvement versus speed and determine where there is a
significant change.
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794064 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 23:45 |
|
On Feb 11, 4:08 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi... [at] mindspring.com> wrote:
> "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > WINDHAM . Police Chief Gerald Lewis said the 25 mph speed limit on
> > Westchester Road recently set by selectmen is illegal and unenforceable.
>
> It seems to me that the Police Chief is throwing his weight around. You
> clipped out - "Lewis said his department is equipped to do a traffic study
> to see if a speed limit below 30 mph is warranted."
>
> I think he feels left out. I wondered what sort of study the law requires?
Probably a study to determine the average prevailing speed, as the
MUTCD requires. IMO, the police chief is simply telling them what the
law is and, for a novel change, he is right.
> "Lack of evidence of a traffic and engineering study will not invalidate a
> local speed limit ordinance as adopted or amended under this section after
> five years following the day on which the speed limit ordinance took
> effect."
>
> So if they pass the ordinance, no matter what else happens, the speed limit
> is valid five years after the ordinance is passed.
Well, that's just idiotic. In essence, it says, "If you set an
illegal and unsupportable speed limit and nobody complains for five
years, we'll overlook it."
> > "It's not that we oppose a speed limit of 25," McPherson said, "but
> > there's a process that should be followed. Otherwise, it could be
> > successfully challenged in court."
>
> > <...>
>
> > "I don't care about the bureaucratic stuff," Breton said. "If residents
> > in town want a new road to be 25 mph, I will try to do that when a new
> > road is being accepted. If it gets people to slow down and saves just one
> > life, I think it's worth it."
Cue noble bullshit platitudes music ...
That "bureaucratic stuff" is *the law* as the state legislature passed
it. But that doesn't matter to this duly elected butt-kisser who's
salivating over the prospect of all the cash they'll rake in from
illegally-ticketed demon speeders. I've got no respect for a moron
like that.
--
C.R. Krieger
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794065 ] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 23:49 |
|
"Alan Baker" <alangbaker [at] telus.net> wrote in message
news:alangbaker-4F31F6.13512312022008 [at] [74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>> Maybe you could just cite from memory the criteria used to determine
>> which was a safe velocity for which driver, and how that was qualified
>> and quantified...?
>
> Not from memory, no. But looking at it logically, you examine rates of
> accident involvement versus speed and determine where there is a
> significant change.
I have read as much stuff as I can find for free on the subject of safety
and speed limits and the 85th percentile method. Generally most studies come
up with a couple of conclusions that I agree with:
1) If you set speed limits too low, they will be ignored
2) A graph of the accident vs. speed curve is a "u" shape - most people
involved in accidents are either going much faster than the average speed of
traffic or much slower than the average speed of traffic.
It is my opinion that the 85th percentile speed is completely arbitrary.
None of the studies I have read have conclusively proved that the 85th
percentile speed limit is anything special (vs. say an 80th or 90th
percentile). In fact, I would argue that determining the "true" 85th
percentile speed limit is practically impossible. And even if you could
determine the speed for a given time of day, set of weather conditions,
traffic conditions, etc., etc.,.....it would be very difficult to say that
particular speed limit applies to all other conditions.
And for the case that got this thread rolling - we are talking about a half
mile long street in a residential community. Putting aside the question of
the cost effectiveness of conducting a study on such a limited street, just
how accurate do you think the study would be?
Finally, how many speed limits are actually set using the 85th percentile
rule? None that I know of.....no matter what is claimed. I've never actually
lived in a jurisdiction where speed limits were not arbitrarily set by the
DMV or other government agency.
Ed
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794066 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 00:15 |
|
In article <13r48ikpi1j7i14 [at] corp.supernews.com>, C. E. White wrote:
>
> "Alan Baker" <alangbaker [at] telus.net> wrote in message
> news:alangbaker-4F31F6.13512312022008 [at] [74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>
>>> Maybe you could just cite from memory the criteria used to determine
>>> which was a safe velocity for which driver, and how that was qualified
>>> and quantified...?
>>
>> Not from memory, no. But looking at it logically, you examine rates of
>> accident involvement versus speed and determine where there is a
>> significant change.
>
> I have read as much stuff as I can find for free on the subject of safety
> and speed limits and the 85th percentile method. Generally most studies come
> up with a couple of conclusions that I agree with:
>
> 1) If you set speed limits too low, they will be ignored
> 2) A graph of the accident vs. speed curve is a "u" shape - most people
> involved in accidents are either going much faster than the average speed of
> traffic or much slower than the average speed of traffic.
>
> It is my opinion that the 85th percentile speed is completely arbitrary.
> None of the studies I have read have conclusively proved that the 85th
> percentile speed limit is anything special (vs. say an 80th or 90th
> percentile). In fact, I would argue that determining the "true" 85th
> percentile speed limit is practically impossible. And even if you could
> determine the speed for a given time of day, set of weather conditions,
> traffic conditions, etc., etc.,.....it would be very difficult to say that
> particular speed limit applies to all other conditions.
What do you propose for a better method? Support your work.
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794070 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 01:01 |
|
gpsman wrote:
> On Feb 12, 12:49 pm, Alan Baker <alangba... [at] telus.net> wrote:
>
>>In article
>><615c7875-d43e-4848-918e-1d5a340d5... [at] b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> gpsman <gps... [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 12, 10:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
>>>>you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what?
>>
>>>Compared to good science.
>>
>>>The 85th percentile method is based on the assumption that the
>>>majority of drivers will choose a reasonable and safe velocity, which
>>>makes the basis wholly unscientific.
>>>http://www.motorists.org/mi/85th.html
>>
>>Incorrect. The 85th percentile method was developed from studies which
>>*demonstrated* that barring hidden hazards 85% of drivers will choose to
>>drive at or below a reasonable and safe velocity.
>
>
> But... you don't know which ones, or have any reference to them...?
>
> Maybe you could just cite from memory the criteria used to determine
> which was a safe velocity for which driver, and how that was qualified
> and quantified...?
> -----
>
> - gpsman
How about you stop whining and expecting everyone to do your homework
for you? Cites have been provided over the (many) years you've been
visiting this group and you've dismissed them all out of hand. You've
long ago crossed the line from "ignorant" to "wilfully ignorant." The
first can be cured, the latter is YOUR FAULT.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794071 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 01:18 |
|
On Feb 12, 5:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi... [at] mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Finally, how many speed limits are actually set using the 85th percentile
> rule? None that I know of.....no matter what is claimed. I've never actually
> lived in a jurisdiction where speed limits were not arbitrarily set by the
> DMV or other government agency.
I don't think it's completely "arbitrary".
A reasonable person is able to examine a road and determine X is "fast
enough" under ideal conditions, for the majority of practical
purposes, and for the "average" driver, in the average vehicle.
-----
- gpsman
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794073 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 01:30 |
|
gpsman wrote:
> On Feb 12, 5:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi... [at] mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Finally, how many speed limits are actually set using the 85th percentile
>>rule? None that I know of.....no matter what is claimed. I've never actually
>>lived in a jurisdiction where speed limits were not arbitrarily set by the
>>DMV or other government agency.
>
>
> I don't think it's completely "arbitrary".
>
> A reasonable person is able to examine a road and determine X is "fast
> enough" under ideal conditions, for the majority of practical
> purposes, and for the "average" driver, in the average vehicle.
Indeed, which is the whole basis for the 85th percentile rule. That
throws away the fastest 15%, which should account for most of the
outlying idiots.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794074 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 01:34 |
|
On Feb 12, 7:01 pm, Nate Nagel <njna... [at] roosters.net> wrote:
> gpsman wrote:
> > On Feb 12, 12:49 pm, Alan Baker <alangba... [at] telus.net> wrote:
>
> >>In article
> >><615c7875-d43e-4848-918e-1d5a340d5... [at] b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >> gpsman <gps... [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>On Feb 12, 10:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
> >>>wrote:
>
> >>>>You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. He=
re
> >>>>you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what?
>
> >>>Compared to good science.
>
> >>>The 85th percentile method is based on the assumption that the
> >>>majority of drivers will choose a reasonable and safe velocity, which
> >>>makes the basis wholly unscientific.
> >>>http://www.motorists.org/mi/85th.html
>
> >>Incorrect. The 85th percentile method was developed from studies which
> >>*demonstrated* that barring hidden hazards 85% of drivers will choose to=
> >>drive at or below a reasonable and safe velocity.
>
> > But... you don't know which ones, or have any reference to them...?
>
> > Maybe you could just cite from memory the criteria used to determine
> > which was a safe velocity for which driver, and how that was qualified
> > and quantified...?
> >
>
> How about you stop whining and expecting everyone to do your homework
> for you? Cites have been provided over the (many) years you've been
> visiting this group and you've dismissed them all out of hand. You've
> long ago crossed the line from "ignorant" to "wilfully ignorant." The
> first can be cured, the latter is YOUR FAULT.
There has never been such a cite. You've never seen one, because it
doesn't exist.
Now, stop your whining about reasonable requests for cites of
extraordinary assertions which are not made of you.
Shall I repost this in Fran=E7ais to aid your comprehension...?
-----
- gpsman
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794075 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 01:39 |
|
gpsman wrote:
> On Feb 12, 7:01 pm, Nate Nagel <njna... [at] roosters.net> wrote:
>
>>gpsman wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 12, 12:49 pm, Alan Baker <alangba... [at] telus.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>In article
>>>><615c7875-d43e-4848-918e-1d5a340d5... [at] b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>>>gpsman <gps... [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Feb 12, 10:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
>>>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>>>You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
>>>>>>you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what?
>>
>>>>>Compared to good science.
>>
>>>>>The 85th percentile method is based on the assumption that the
>>>>>majority of drivers will choose a reasonable and safe velocity, which
>>>>>makes the basis wholly unscientific.
>>>>>http://www.motorists.org/mi/85th.html
>>
>>>>Incorrect. The 85th percentile method was developed from studies which
>>>>*demonstrated* that barring hidden hazards 85% of drivers will choose to
>>>>drive at or below a reasonable and safe velocity.
>>
>>>But... you don't know which ones, or have any reference to them...?
>>
>>>Maybe you could just cite from memory the criteria used to determine
>>>which was a safe velocity for which driver, and how that was qualified
>>>and quantified...?
>>>
>>
>>How about you stop whining and expecting everyone to do your homework
>>for you? Cites have been provided over the (many) years you've been
>>visiting this group and you've dismissed them all out of hand. You've
>>long ago crossed the line from "ignorant" to "wilfully ignorant." The
>>first can be cured, the latter is YOUR FAULT.
>
>
> There has never been such a cite. You've never seen one, because it
> doesn't exist.
>
Bullshit.
> Now, stop your whining about reasonable requests for cites of
> extraordinary assertions which are not made of you.
I'm not the one making extraordinary assertions, you are.
> Shall I repost this in Français to aid your comprehension...?
vous pourriez s'il vous plait; semblerez-vous plus de raisonnable?
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794078 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 02:08 |
|
Nate Nagel <njnagel [at] roosters.net> wrote in
news:fotdn602442 [at] news2.newsguy.com:
> gpsman wrote:
>> On Feb 12, 5:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi... [at] mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Finally, how many speed limits are actually set using the 85th
>>>percentile rule? None that I know of.....no matter what is claimed.
>>>I've never actually lived in a jurisdiction where speed limits were
>>>not arbitrarily set by the DMV or other government agency.
>>
>>
>> I don't think it's completely "arbitrary".
>>
>> A reasonable person is able to examine a road and determine X is
>> "fast enough" under ideal conditions, for the majority of practical
>> purposes, and for the "average" driver, in the average vehicle.
>
> Indeed, which is the whole basis for the 85th percentile rule. That
> throws away the fastest 15%, which should account for most of the
> outlying idiots.
>
> nate
>
I dunno;these days,it seems like the idiot level is much higher than 15%...
DAMN that 55 NMSL!
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794079 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 02:12 |
|
Jim Yanik wrote:
> Nate Nagel <njnagel [at] roosters.net> wrote in
> news:fotdn602442 [at] news2.newsguy.com:
>
>
>>gpsman wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 12, 5:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi... [at] mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Finally, how many speed limits are actually set using the 85th
>>>>percentile rule? None that I know of.....no matter what is claimed.
>>>>I've never actually lived in a jurisdiction where speed limits were
>>>>not arbitrarily set by the DMV or other government agency.
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't think it's completely "arbitrary".
>>>
>>>A reasonable person is able to examine a road and determine X is
>>>"fast enough" under ideal conditions, for the majority of practical
>>>purposes, and for the "average" driver, in the average vehicle.
>>
>>Indeed, which is the whole basis for the 85th percentile rule. That
>>throws away the fastest 15%, which should account for most of the
>>outlying idiots.
>>
>>nate
>>
>
>
> I dunno;these days,it seems like the idiot level is much higher than 15%...
>
>
> DAMN that 55 NMSL!
>
No argument here, but the idiocy I see happens at any speed and is not
tied to poor speed choice. More likely is poor lane choice, failure to
merge properly, failure to yield, stuff like that.
Well, there was the guy I was following as I came home from voting who I
swear never exceeded 10 MPH and I was behind him for 4-5 blocks...
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794082 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 02:21 |
|
In article
<30412d30-bfce-4e46-86ee-a54dd6af04f8 [at] 1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com>,
gpsman <gpsman [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 7:01 pm, Nate Nagel <njna... [at] roosters.net> wrote:
> > gpsman wrote:
> > > On Feb 12, 12:49 pm, Alan Baker <alangba... [at] telus.net> wrote:
> >
> > >>In article
> > >><615c7875-d43e-4848-918e-1d5a340d5... [at] b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > >> gpsman <gps... [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >>>On Feb 12, 10:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
> > >>>wrote:
> >
> > >>>>You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
> > >>>>you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what?
> >
> > >>>Compared to good science.
> >
> > >>>The 85th percentile method is based on the assumption that the
> > >>>majority of drivers will choose a reasonable and safe velocity, which
> > >>>makes the basis wholly unscientific.
> > >>>http://www.motorists.org/mi/85th.html
> >
> > >>Incorrect. The 85th percentile method was developed from studies which
> > >>*demonstrated* that barring hidden hazards 85% of drivers will choose to
> > >>drive at or below a reasonable and safe velocity.
> >
> > > But... you don't know which ones, or have any reference to them...?
> >
> > > Maybe you could just cite from memory the criteria used to determine
> > > which was a safe velocity for which driver, and how that was qualified
> > > and quantified...?
> > >
> >
> > How about you stop whining and expecting everyone to do your homework
> > for you? Cites have been provided over the (many) years you've been
> > visiting this group and you've dismissed them all out of hand. You've
> > long ago crossed the line from "ignorant" to "wilfully ignorant." The
> > first can be cured, the latter is YOUR FAULT.
>
> There has never been such a cite. You've never seen one, because it
> doesn't exist.
<http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html>
Provided three and a half years ago.
>
> Now, stop your whining about reasonable requests for cites of
> extraordinary assertions which are not made of you.
>
> Shall I repost this in Français to aid your comprehension...?
> -----
>
> - gpsman
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794086 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 02:37 |
|
C. E. White wrote:
> It is my opinion that the 85th percentile speed is completely arbitrary.
> None of the studies I have read have conclusively proved that the 85th
> percentile speed limit is anything special (vs. say an 80th or 90th
> percentile).
The 90th percentile speed is 3 to 5 mph above the 85th percentile speed.
The 80th percentile speed is 1 to 2 mph below the 85th percentile speed.
The MUTCD requires that speed limits be set as a multiple of 5.
Therefore a proper speed limit would be within 5 mph of the 85th
percentile speed. Sometimes it would be closer to the 67th percentile
speed if rounded down 4 mph, or closer to the 90th percentile speed if
rounded up 4 mph.
> In fact, I would argue that determining the "true" 85th
> percentile speed limit is practically impossible. And even if you could
> determine the speed for a given time of day, set of weather conditions,
> traffic conditions, etc., etc.,.....it would be very difficult to say that
> particular speed limit applies to all other conditions.
The posted speed limit is supposed to represent the upper bound safe
speed in good free flow traffic conditions. On NC interstates, that's
probably around 80 mph (even though many NC interstates are posted at 65
or 70 mph). But that doesn't mean that it's safe to drive 70 mph in a
torrential rain storm at night.
Therefore, it's easy to determine the 85th percentile speed of traffic
and post a speed limit within 5 mph of that speed. First, cover the
existing speed limit signs with sheets of plywood. Then measure the
speed of several hundred vehicles in free flow traffic conditions.
Third, apply various statistical measures to the raw data to get the
85th percentile speed. Last, post a speed limit within 5 mph of the
reported 85th percentile speed.
As a result, you won't have more than 10 percent of traffic exceeding
the limit by more than 3 to 5 mph, and no more than 5 percent will
exceed the limit by more than 5 to 7 mph.
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794089 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 03:07 |
|
On Feb 12, 8:21 pm, Alan Baker <alangba... [at] telus.net> wrote:
> In article
> <30412d30-bfce-4e46-86ee-a54dd6af0... [at] 1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> gpsman <gps... [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 12, 7:01 pm, Nate Nagel <njna... [at] roosters.net> wrote:
> > > gpsman wrote:
> > > > On Feb 12, 12:49 pm, Alan Baker <alangba... [at] telus.net> wrote:
>
> > > >>In article
> > > >><615c7875-d43e-4848-918e-1d5a340d5... [at] b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > >> gpsman <gps... [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >>>On Feb 12, 10:04 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P)
> > > >>>wrote:
>
> > > >>>>You sure seem to want to get into the 85th percentile method AGAIN. Here
> > > >>>>you are calling it 'bad science'. Bad science compared to what?
>
> > > >>>Compared to good science.
>
> > > >>>The 85th percentile method is based on the assumption that the
> > > >>>majority of drivers will choose a reasonable and safe velocity, which
> > > >>>makes the basis wholly unscientific.
> > > >>>http://www.motorists.org/mi/85th.html
>
> > > >>Incorrect. The 85th percentile method was developed from studies which
> > > >>*demonstrated* that barring hidden hazards 85% of drivers will choose to
> > > >>drive at or below a reasonable and safe velocity.
>
> > > > But... you don't know which ones, or have any reference to them...?
>
> > > > Maybe you could just cite from memory the criteria used to determine
> > > > which was a safe velocity for which driver, and how that was qualified
> > > > and quantified...?
>
> > > How about you stop whining and expecting everyone to do your homework
> > > for you? Cites have been provided over the (many) years you've been
> > > visiting this group and you've dismissed them all out of hand. You've
> > > long ago crossed the line from "ignorant" to "wilfully ignorant." The
> > > first can be cured, the latter is YOUR FAULT.
>
> > There has never been such a cite. You've never seen one, because it
> > doesn't exist.
>
> <http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html>
>
> Provided three and a half years ago.
Yeah... uh... that's great and all, but it offers zero support of your
assertion that "The 85th percentile method was developed from studies
which
*demonstrated* that barring hidden hazards 85% of drivers will choose
to
drive at or below a reasonable and safe velocity" or that the 85th
percentile is derived of "rates of accident involvement versus speed"
Basically, it says a lot of morons simply ignore speed limits, and
crashes remain essentially the same regardless of the speed limit.
What a surprise...
Additionally, this particular study involved "non-limited access rural
and urban highways".
It is also impossible to tell where the conclusions of the original
authors ends and those of the site owner begins.
Furthermore, the site owner, Kevin Atkinson, seems to have no
credentials of any relevance whatsoever, and his site is chock full of
dead links.
Perhaps you can do a little better than that...?
-----
- gpsman
|
|
|
| Re: How speed limits are actually set. [message #794130 ] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 09:42 |
|
On Feb 12, 1:18=A0pm, gpsman <gps... [at] driversmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 2:23 pm, Arif Khokar <akhokar1... [at] wvu.edu> wrote:
>
> > C. E. White wrote:
> > > Remember, I think the whole 85 percentile thing is so much hogwash.
>
> > It's supported by decades of study (both 85th and 90th percentile
> > speeds). =A0The first such study was a meta-analysis from the university=
> > of Indiana back in the late '50s or early '60s. =A0I saw a reference to =
it
> > years ago, but I don't feel like trying to dig it out now.
>
> Then dig out one of the dozens that must have been conducted between
> the late '50s and yesterday.
>
> Shirley you don't mean to imply you're "familiar" with just one (and
> the first one at that), but you lost it.
>
> Dog ate it...?
> =A0-----
>
> - gpsman
How aboutnthis? Drive no faster when passing than 10% above the speed
of the car you're passing. When the road is clear, go as fast as you
care as long as you can slow down when passing the next car.
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