| Re: The Stockholm Solution [message #791916] |
Tue, 22 January 2008 03:01 |
|
In article <4bs6p39s8nhso9dsth7rej550vkai3fkd6 [at] 4ax.com>,
Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:34:06 -0600, russotto [at] grace.speakeasy.net
>(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
>
>>In article <l364p3lovp3lii4ub5f79aq8r2qkk105qi [at] 4ax.com>,
>>Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:07:16 -0700, Ashton Crusher <demi [at] moore.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>You miss the point. If ALL you do is something that reduces traffic
>>>>10% then by definition you have done exactly the same thing as add
>>>>another 10% capacity. The LAST time you added 10% capacity what
>>>>happened? Just as you stated, induced traffic filled it right back
>>>>up. That's going to happen for this "congestion pricing" thing too.
>>>
>>>LOL!!!
>>>
>>>So let's recap your theory:
>>>
>>>Congestion pricing is introduced on a road. 10% of drivers think the
>>>price is too steep, so they stop driving on that road. However,
>>>because congestion is now reduced on that road, those same drivers who
>>>yesterday thought the price was too high suddenly decide the price is
>>>just fine and start driving on the road again, bringing congestion
>>>right back up to where it was.
>>
>>No, they're different drivers -- the same drivers who would magically
>>be induced to appear on the road if you increased capacity by 10%.
>>
>>Assuming you believe in induced traffic at all, the theory holds.
>
>So this is your capacity for logical thought? You think that induced
>traffic works the same with a toll road as it does with a "free" one?
Sure. The induced traffic theory says that road capacity is so
desirable, that no matter how much you build of it, it will fill up.
A piddling little toll is not even going to make a dent in such
insatiable desire.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
|
|
|
| Re: The Stockholm Solution [message #791934 ] |
Tue, 22 January 2008 04:09 |
|
|
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
|
|
|
| Re: The Stockholm Solution [message #791954 ] |
Tue, 22 January 2008 06:20 |
|
In article <kgnap3lt9ioo8bsvgqqfdpgo5dp947ikcb [at] 4ax.com>,
Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:01:55 -0600, russotto [at] grace.speakeasy.net
>(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
>
>>In article <4bs6p39s8nhso9dsth7rej550vkai3fkd6 [at] 4ax.com>,
>>Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan [at] yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:34:06 -0600, russotto [at] grace.speakeasy.net
>>>(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
>
>>>>Assuming you believe in induced traffic at all, the theory holds.
>>>
>>>So this is your capacity for logical thought? You think that induced
>>>traffic works the same with a toll road as it does with a "free" one?
>>
>>Sure. The induced traffic theory says that road capacity is so
>>desirable, that no matter how much you build of it, it will fill up.
>
>That's not the theory I heard.
It's the theory you've been espousing. "Whenever you increase capacity you have induced traffic to deal with, which quickly erases any gains."
>>A piddling little toll is not even going to make a dent in such
>>insatiable desire.
>
>OK, prove it.
I already have, if I accept your postulate above.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
|
|
|
| Re: The Stockholm Solution [message #792289 ] |
Sat, 26 January 2008 01:23 |
|
Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
> Sure. The induced traffic theory says that road capacity is so
> desirable, that no matter how much you build of it, it will fill up.
> A piddling little toll is not even going to make a dent in such
> insatiable desire.
That depends on who sets the toll. A sensible private owner, if allowed,
will determine by experiment exactly what level of tolls bring in the most
money. This level will vary with time and day (as on the 91 Express Lanes)
and will be at the point where the number of drivers willing to pay it is
just below the number that would produce stop-and-go traffic.
|
|
|
