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Motorcycles » uk.rec.motorcycles » Re: Mob Rule
| Re: Mob Rule [message #779243] |
Wed, 12 July 2006 23:21 |
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Verdigris scribbled:
> On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 22:56:08 +0000, frag wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> > <thinking about it for a while and wandering off to a different
> > track>
> >
> > "kids don't come born with morals"
> >
> > Ok, so the difference is between "instincts" and any other
> > behaviour we exhibit.
> >
> > Instincts are in our genetic code, we follow them, or try to. We
> > might need showing how to follow them, a wolf showing it young how
> > to hunt, but thats just filling in the details to allow the
> > youngster to follow its instincts. They're born with the driving
> > force.
> >
> > E.g. the instinct to reproduce, ensure we pass our genes on. Females
> > will die to protect their young, overriding the fight or flight
> > instinct. Males will shag anything to ensure the best chances of
> > passing on his DNA.
> >
> > How do instincts arise? Millions or thousands of generations of
> > evolution, Darwinism. And that evolution is based on who survives
> > longer.
> >
> > One big advantage is safety in numbers, ask any Wildebeast and
> > they'll tell you it works. And also hunting in packs works a lot
> > better than alone.
> >
> > So groups of beings are good.
> >
> > So ensuring that group is maintained is good.
> >
> > So if one is in potentially fatal trouble, and another can help, it
> > makes "survival sense" for it to help.
> >
> > Selfish compassion, looking at it from a purely logical point of
> > view, I'll agree.
> >
> > But those animals who show this kind of behaviour have a better
> > chance of survival, so after a time they will evolve to have some
> > kind of "compassion like" instinct.
>
> I'm afraid your understanding of evolution is slightly lacking here.
> Evolution works on the level of the individual, not the species.
If the individual is safer in a group it will develop the instinct to
form herds.
All instincts are just means to an end, the individual surviving as
long as possible. So the instinct may seem like its protecting the
species, but taken to its logical conclusion its protecting the
individual.
I would have thought the fact there are herds of all sorts of animals
is proof enough that its an instinctive thing.
> Whilst it is not unreasonable that such social instincts could
> evolve, they will operate in parallel with (some) individuals
> behaving very selfishly. Broadly speaking, when most members of a
> species behave altruistically it is advantageous for individuals to
> behave selfishly and exploit them. When there is too much
> selfishness, it is no longer beneficial and tends to decline, so you
> end up with a dynamic equilibrium of sorts.
Yup, I can see that. Also the fact humans are unique because our
intelligence has removed the need for instincts, and we can also
analyse them and then exploit them in others.
> So whilst it's possible that there is a moral instinct, if there is
> then it must assuredly be lacking in some individuals.
Guaranteed.
--
frag
Suzuki VStrom 1000 K2, Honda XRV750, BOTAFOT#6, DS#5
exKoTBOTAFOT, DFV#3, BOD#7, MKA&E#1 (Oak Leaf Cluster)
UKRMHRC#11 UK-R-M FAQ : http://www.ukrm.net/faq
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| Re: Mob Rule [message #779752 ] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 00:27 |
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:21:47 +0000, frag wrote:
> Verdigris scribbled:
<SNIP>
>> I'm afraid your understanding of evolution is slightly lacking here.
>> Evolution works on the level of the individual, not the species.
>
> If the individual is safer in a group it will develop the instinct to
> form herds.
>
> All instincts are just means to an end, the individual surviving as long
> as possible. So the instinct may seem like its protecting the species,
> but taken to its logical conclusion its protecting the individual.
>
> I would have thought the fact there are herds of all sorts of animals is
> proof enough that its an instinctive thing.
No. The inidividual is all. If individuals form herds or other groups
it's because it is likely to benefit the individual, (or individual
genotypes). If it also benefits the species as a whole all well and good,
but that's a side effect.
The existence of large groups is merely evidence that being part of such
groups is beneficial to each individual member.
--
Simon - UKRM~verdigris,plus,com
Tiger - A return to good sense.
Z1000 - Less sense, more sensation.
MAG BOTAFOT#36 two#22 HLR#pi BONY#62 BHaLC#3 LotR#7
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| Re: Mob Rule [message #780765 ] |
Mon, 17 July 2006 00:13 |
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Verdigris scribbled:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:21:47 +0000, frag wrote:
>
> > Verdigris scribbled:
> <SNIP>
> >> I'm afraid your understanding of evolution is slightly lacking
> here. >> Evolution works on the level of the individual, not the
> species.
> >
> > If the individual is safer in a group it will develop the instinct
> > to form herds.
> >
> > All instincts are just means to an end, the individual surviving as
> > long as possible. So the instinct may seem like its protecting the
> > species, but taken to its logical conclusion its protecting the
> > individual.
> >
> > I would have thought the fact there are herds of all sorts of
> > animals is proof enough that its an instinctive thing.
>
> No. The inidividual is all. If individuals form herds or other
> groups it's because it is likely to benefit the individual, (or
> individual genotypes). If it also benefits the species as a whole all
> well and good, but that's a side effect.
>
> The existence of large groups is merely evidence that being part of
> such groups is beneficial to each individual member.
Thats what I said.
A means to an end, that end being the individuals survival.
--
frag
Suzuki VStrom 1000 K2, Honda XRV750, BOTAFOT#6, DS#5
exKoTBOTAFOT, DFV#3, BOD#7, MKA&E#1 (Oak Leaf Cluster)
UKRMHRC#11 UK-R-M FAQ : http://www.ukrm.net/faq
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