|
General » rec.autos.tech » Soldering Advice
| Soldering Advice [message #765728] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 04:49 |
|
Hi,
I've tried my hand at soldering lately and haven't met with much
success. Had a fuel guage sender with a leaky float. Made of copper,
had a crack. Tried soldering with resin core and a soldering iron.
Looked okay and didn't bubble in a bath, but was sunk a day after
reinstallation.
Next, I tried repairing the top of the radiator. Had seperated at a
soldering crimp. Took it out and laid down a nice bead with silver
solder and a propane torch. Tested in the garage, it held water after
a few touch-ups. When driven, didn't make it to the gas station and it
was leaking almost as bad as before.
What gives? Any advice on what I'm doing wrong?
Thanks,
Harry
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #765731 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 05:13 |
|
ev1lbastard [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've tried my hand at soldering lately and haven't met with much
> success. Had a fuel guage sender with a leaky float. Made of copper,
> had a crack. Tried soldering with resin core and a soldering iron.
> Looked okay and didn't bubble in a bath, but was sunk a day after
> reinstallation.
When you solder floats they heat up and expel air creating leaks. YOu will need
to heat the entire float up with a torch and then solder.
> Next, I tried repairing the top of the radiator. Had seperated at a
> soldering crimp. Took it out and laid down a nice bead with silver
> solder and a propane torch. Tested in the garage, it held water after
> a few touch-ups. When driven, didn't make it to the gas station and it
> was leaking almost as bad as before.
Probably not clean. Silver solder is difficult to use and requires the parts be
very clean. It also needs higher heat.
Use tin/lead solder instead.
> What gives? Any advice on what I'm doing wrong?
>
> Thanks,
> Harry
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #765740 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 07:55 |
|
On 11 Jul 2006 19:49:58 -0700, ev1lbastard [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I've tried my hand at soldering lately and haven't met with much
>success. Had a fuel guage sender with a leaky float. Made of copper,
>had a crack. Tried soldering with resin core and a soldering iron.
>Looked okay and didn't bubble in a bath, but was sunk a day after
>reinstallation.
>
>Next, I tried repairing the top of the radiator. Had seperated at a
>soldering crimp. Took it out and laid down a nice bead with silver
>solder and a propane torch. Tested in the garage, it held water after
>a few touch-ups. When driven, didn't make it to the gas station and it
>was leaking almost as bad as before.
Radiator seam repairs are doomed to failure unless the tank is removed
so all surfaces can be fully cleaned. You laid a nice looking bead of
solder on top of corrosion and dirt. When you tested it in the garage
I doubt there was pressure on it. As soon as pressure tried to expand
the tank the seam split. FWIW replacement radiators are very
inexpensive these days thanks to China. Koyo and Visteon are two of
the better brands.
Don
www.donsautomotive.com
>What gives? Any advice on what I'm doing wrong?
>
>Thanks,
>Harry
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #765741 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 07:57 |
|
ev1lbastard [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> I've tried my hand at soldering lately and haven't met with much
> success. Had a fuel guage sender with a leaky float. Made of copper,
> had a crack. Tried soldering with resin core and a soldering iron.
> Looked okay and didn't bubble in a bath, but was sunk a day after
> reinstallation.
A friend of mine kept having the same problem with a carburetor float,
but then we read, in a carb book, that said it was important to have a
tiny vent hole in the float, well away from the solder seam, to prevent
the expanding air from blowing bubbles through the solder seam. There
may be a small spot of solder over that hole that you can melt and
unplug, or just drill a tiny hole elsewhere. Solder the seam, let the
float cool completely, and only then solder that vent hole.
> Next, I tried repairing the top of the radiator. Had seperated at a
> soldering crimp. Took it out and laid down a nice bead with silver
> solder and a propane torch. Tested in the garage, it held water after
> a few touch-ups. When driven, didn't make it to the gas station and it
> was leaking almost as bad as before.
Is it even possible to melt silver solder well with just a propane
torch, unless the proportion of silver is so low that the solder offers
no strength advantage over regular tin-lead solder?
How clean are your metal surfaces? Unless they're bright and shiney,
the solder may not stick at all. I wire brushed off as much solder as
possible and wet sanded any tarnished areas. I wet sanded because I
didn't want to kick up toxic lead dust, which reportedly causes bain
damage. Also I applied brush-on rosin flux because I've found that
when soldering large pieces of metal it can help solder stick a lot
better compared to rosin core solder alone. I didn't use acid flux for
plumbing because I didn't know if it was acceptable for car radiators.
It took me four tries before I got a leak-free radiator repair.
Attempt #1: Cleaned out the solder from where it was cracked and a
couple of inches beyond on each side. The resulting seam leaked where
the new solder met the old.
Attempt #2: Repeat of #1, got another similar pinhole leak.
Attempt #3: I decided to resolder the whole seam. I removed almost all
of the solder with a wire brush to prevent blobs of hot solder from
flying off and burning me (wear eye protection, shoes, long sleeves,
and long pants), and I'm glad I did because it was kind of hard to
separate the tank from the radiator core. After resoldering, I got a
pinhole leak where the soldering started and ended.
Attempt #4: I try #3 again, only this time I have a friend hold a
second propane torch, and we start with the torches next to each other
at one side and work away from one another until the two torches met
again at the other side. No leaks when the car was sold a couple of
years later. Apparently radiator shops do something like this, only
with have a special torch that fits around the whole perimeter of the
radiator tank and heats up the seam every few inches simultaneously.
I've read that 50/50 tin/lead solder is mechanically stronger than
60/40 but, I don't know if it matters for an application like this, and
because it always looks dull, it can be harder to tell if the joint is
good or not. I don't know if lead-free tin-antimony plumbing solder
works well for radiators. I've also read of someone fixing a metal
radiator with epoxy made especially for gluing copper pipes together,
but it's possible that this will require soldering off all the old
solder.
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #765742 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 08:15 |
|
On 11 Jul 2006 19:49:58 -0700, ev1lbastard [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I've tried my hand at soldering lately and haven't met with much
>success. Had a fuel guage sender with a leaky float. Made of copper,
>had a crack. Tried soldering with resin core and a soldering iron.
>Looked okay and didn't bubble in a bath, but was sunk a day after
>reinstallation.
>
>Next, I tried repairing the top of the radiator. Had seperated at a
>soldering crimp. Took it out and laid down a nice bead with silver
>solder and a propane torch. Tested in the garage, it held water after
>a few touch-ups. When driven, didn't make it to the gas station and it
>was leaking almost as bad as before.
>
>What gives? Any advice on what I'm doing wrong?
It takes skill and practice.
It is seldom a skill acquired overnight.
Practice on scrap pieces of copper, galvanized flashing,
etc, then graduate to tougher materials like tuming and butt joints.
Let the heat do the work, let teh flux flow well, and use solder
sparingly. A cold joint is equivalent to no joint.
Silver solder and silver-bearing solder are two different things.
Silver solder melts at red heat, and requires MAPP gas or acetylene,
or oxy-butane, etc. Silver-beraing solder, OTOH, is only 2% to 3%
silver.
There are many fine sites on soldering basics.
Google is your friend.
But only practice will get it.
Don't practice on something you will need to use!
I've braxed (mainly) and soft-soldered for over 26 years,
professionally (off and on). Still, I get better with time.
Guys at the mill would always call me to silver solder or braze
something for them, and these were the weldors (professional arc
weldors)!
It's a different animal.
Take the (copper/brass) floats out of old discarded carburetors, and
practice on them, with both air-propane and ozy-acetylene. Yes, I
realize they're normally soft soldered. The point is: when you can
smoothly braxe (hard silver solder) a carburetor float using an
acetylene welding torch, without blowing holes in it, then you've got
some good skill.
Until then, hire a professional to solder it for you, before you
wreck it completely (if you haven't already).
--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #781369 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 15:29 |
|
~^Johnny^~ wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2006 19:49:58 -0700, ev1lbastard [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >I've tried my hand at soldering lately and haven't met with much
> >success. Had a fuel guage sender with a leaky float. Made of copper,
> >had a crack. Tried soldering with resin core and a soldering iron.
> >Looked okay and didn't bubble in a bath, but was sunk a day after
> >reinstallation.
> >
> >Next, I tried repairing the top of the radiator. Had seperated at a
> >soldering crimp. Took it out and laid down a nice bead with silver
> >solder and a propane torch. Tested in the garage, it held water after
> >a few touch-ups. When driven, didn't make it to the gas station and it
> >was leaking almost as bad as before.
> >
> >What gives? Any advice on what I'm doing wrong?
>
> It takes skill and practice.
>
> It is seldom a skill acquired overnight.
>
> Practice on scrap pieces of copper, galvanized flashing,
> etc, then graduate to tougher materials like tuming and butt joints.
>
> Let the heat do the work, let teh flux flow well, and use solder
> sparingly. A cold joint is equivalent to no joint.
>
> Silver solder and silver-bearing solder are two different things.
> Silver solder melts at red heat, and requires MAPP gas or acetylene,
> or oxy-butane, etc. Silver-beraing solder, OTOH, is only 2% to 3%
> silver.
>
> There are many fine sites on soldering basics.
> Google is your friend.
>
> But only practice will get it.
> Don't practice on something you will need to use!
>
> I've braxed (mainly) and soft-soldered for over 26 years,
> professionally (off and on). Still, I get better with time.
> Guys at the mill would always call me to silver solder or braze
> something for them, and these were the weldors (professional arc
> weldors)!
>
> It's a different animal.
>
> Take the (copper/brass) floats out of old discarded carburetors, and
> practice on them, with both air-propane and ozy-acetylene. Yes, I
> realize they're normally soft soldered. The point is: when you can
> smoothly braxe (hard silver solder) a carburetor float using an
> acetylene welding torch, without blowing holes in it, then you've got
> some good skill.
>
> Until then, hire a professional to solder it for you, before you
> wreck it completely (if you haven't already).
> --
> -john
> wide-open at throttle dot info
One of the key points is to apply the heat to the work, do not apply
the heat to the solder...
you should heat up the work hot enough so that it can melt the solder
so the solder flows, but not so hot that the solder balls up and fall
off.....it does take practice but the key is getting the work hot but
not too hot...
it does NO good to apply the heat directly to the solder
and the work should be clean so the solder will stick to it when it
melts..
Mark
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #781370 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 15:36 |
|
Mark wrote:
> ~^Johnny^~ wrote:
> > On 11 Jul 2006 19:49:58 -0700, ev1lbastard [at] yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > >Hi,
> > >
> > >I've tried my hand at soldering lately and haven't met with much
> > >success. Had a fuel guage sender with a leaky float. Made of copper,
> > >had a crack. Tried soldering with resin core and a soldering iron.
> > >Looked okay and didn't bubble in a bath, but was sunk a day after
> > >reinstallation.
> > >
> > >Next, I tried repairing the top of the radiator. Had seperated at a
> > >soldering crimp. Took it out and laid down a nice bead with silver
> > >solder and a propane torch. Tested in the garage, it held water after
> > >a few touch-ups. When driven, didn't make it to the gas station and it
> > >was leaking almost as bad as before.
> > >
> > >What gives? Any advice on what I'm doing wrong?
> >
> > It takes skill and practice.
> >
> > It is seldom a skill acquired overnight.
> >
> > Practice on scrap pieces of copper, galvanized flashing,
> > etc, then graduate to tougher materials like tuming and butt joints.
> >
> > Let the heat do the work, let teh flux flow well, and use solder
> > sparingly. A cold joint is equivalent to no joint.
> >
> > Silver solder and silver-bearing solder are two different things.
> > Silver solder melts at red heat, and requires MAPP gas or acetylene,
> > or oxy-butane, etc. Silver-beraing solder, OTOH, is only 2% to 3%
> > silver.
> >
> > There are many fine sites on soldering basics.
> > Google is your friend.
> >
> > But only practice will get it.
> > Don't practice on something you will need to use!
> >
> > I've braxed (mainly) and soft-soldered for over 26 years,
> > professionally (off and on). Still, I get better with time.
> > Guys at the mill would always call me to silver solder or braze
> > something for them, and these were the weldors (professional arc
> > weldors)!
> >
> > It's a different animal.
> >
> > Take the (copper/brass) floats out of old discarded carburetors, and
> > practice on them, with both air-propane and ozy-acetylene. Yes, I
> > realize they're normally soft soldered. The point is: when you can
> > smoothly braxe (hard silver solder) a carburetor float using an
> > acetylene welding torch, without blowing holes in it, then you've got
> > some good skill.
> >
> > Until then, hire a professional to solder it for you, before you
> > wreck it completely (if you haven't already).
> > --
> > -john
> > wide-open at throttle dot info
>
> One of the key points is to apply the heat to the work, do not apply
> the heat to the solder...
>
> you should heat up the work hot enough so that it can melt the solder
> so the solder flows, but not so hot that the solder balls up and fall
> off.....it does take practice but the key is getting the work hot but
> not too hot...
>
> it does NO good to apply the heat directly to the solder
>
> and the work should be clean so the solder will stick to it when it
> melts..
>
>
> Mark
The right acid flux will also help the solder flow better. This ain't a
radio so rosin flux is not as good.
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #781371 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 15:52 |
|
I find that rosin core solder is fine for wires and circuit boards, but
when it comes to soldering radiators or floats, acid core solder is
needed.
I have been stuck with only rosin core solder and a hole in the rad. It
was a total waste of time. My current rad has solder repairs all over
it. I have two cores out with solder capping them and several others
soldered as well as the large nipple where the top rad hose attaches is
wound with copper wire for strength or bulk across the crack and
soldered.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=211514759 0
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
ev1lbastard [at] yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've tried my hand at soldering lately and haven't met with much
> success. Had a fuel guage sender with a leaky float. Made of copper,
> had a crack. Tried soldering with resin core and a soldering iron.
> Looked okay and didn't bubble in a bath, but was sunk a day after
> reinstallation.
>
> Next, I tried repairing the top of the radiator. Had seperated at a
> soldering crimp. Took it out and laid down a nice bead with silver
> solder and a propane torch. Tested in the garage, it held water after
> a few touch-ups. When driven, didn't make it to the gas station and it
> was leaking almost as bad as before.
>
> What gives? Any advice on what I'm doing wrong?
>
> Thanks,
> Harry
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #781375 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 16:19 |
|
Mike Romain <romainm [at] sympatico.ca> wrote:
>I find that rosin core solder is fine for wires and circuit boards, but
>when it comes to soldering radiators or floats, acid core solder is
>needed.
You can do it with rosin core, BUT it has to be much cleaner. Rosin core
is not as good at dealing with surface corrosion. I have done pipes and
steel work with rosin core, but it often takes lots of extra solder to get
enough flux on there for it to flow, and a lot of polishing beforehand.
Also, realize that the alloy used for radiator work melts at a lower
temperature than the 60/40 and 63/37 used for electronics. This makes
it a lot easier to get a good joint.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #781376 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 16:53 |
|
Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Also, realize that the alloy used for radiator work melts at a lower
> temperature than the 60/40 and 63/37 used for electronics. This makes
> it a lot easier to get a good joint.
Is there any tin/lead solder that melts at a lower temperature than
63/37, which is rated to melt at 183C? 60/40 melts at that temp but
liquifies at 191C.
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #781389 ] |
Mi, 12 Juli 2006 20:32 |
|
In article <1152716035.458594.8830 [at] i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
larry moe 'n curly <larrymoencurly [at] my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Also, realize that the alloy used for radiator work melts at a lower
>> temperature than the 60/40 and 63/37 used for electronics. This makes
>> it a lot easier to get a good joint.
>
>Is there any tin/lead solder that melts at a lower temperature than
>63/37, which is rated to melt at 183C? 60/40 melts at that temp but
>liquifies at 191C.
I don't recall the fusion diagram off the top of my head, but as you
increase the amount of tin in the mix, the melting point drops, then it
rises again. I don't think it goes much lower than 361'F which is 63/37.
If you want lower than that, you put a tiny little bit of bismuth or indium
in the mix. 52/48 In/Sn melts at 244'F, and there are some bismuth alloys
that go a lot lower. I think Wood's metal melts around 158'F.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #781504 ] |
Fr, 14 Juli 2006 23:21 |
|
First, can you tell where it's leaking -- at the edges of the solder
joint, or in a further propagation of the crack, or in a new (or
previously overlooked?) opening elsewhere, or....???
Another important piece of soldering advice is to heat the work and let
*it* melt the solder. It's okay to wet the tip for better heat
transfer to the work, but you are just not going to make a durable,
continuous, well-sealed joint unless the work itself is locally hot
enough to melt the solder. As you get out of electronics and light
electrical work and into the realm of the mechanical world, you quickly
see the limits of the familiar pencil- and gun-type soldering irons
meant for electronic and light electrical work. This job sounds more
comparable to copper tubing for household plumbing.
You need a seriously high-watt soldering iron (think 80+ W in pencil
type, 200+ W for the Buck Rogers ray gun type) with a big chisel-shaped
business end to have a chance of doing this sort of thing without
flame. In both power and tip size, that's quite the opposite of what
you want for the underneath of a Heathkit.
Try the plumbing section of a hardware store, or an arts and crafts
place that explicitly serves the stained-glass hobby. They'll also
probably sell you a little can of acid flux paste (verboten in
electrical and electronic work) and a harder solder.
Of course, wear safety glasses in case something spatters, make sure
the thing isn't full of gas fumes, and exercise fire safety precautions
in general with regard to where and how you work and the handling of
the soldering iron afterward. You probably know all that stuff but
mentioning it once more never hurts.
There are also supposed cold solder replacements for plumbing (some
sort of copper-compatible epoxy) but I don't know how well they work
when blobbed onto a surface instead of sandwiched between two pieces of
metal; nor (very important) how compatible they are with continuous
immersion in gasoline. You can also get several different kinds of
epoxies suitable for gas tanks, though their weight might affect the
float, depending on how much you have to put on.
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #781510 ] |
Sa, 15 Juli 2006 00:05 |
|
<ev1lbastard [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152672598.134931.19690 [at] 75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I've tried my hand at soldering lately and haven't met with much
> success.
You have received a lot of good comments on this group, HARRY.
My father was an old time pipefitter...not a plumber. He installed
instrument
line runs in the battleships for WWII, and worked in defense installations
for
a good part of his life.
Quality control was very important in these positions, and he took all sorts
of
pains to get a good solder joint.
As everybody has said, the joining surfact has to be CLEAN. He would heat
it,
clean it using a wire brush or steel wool if necessary, apply flux, heat
again and then
TIN.
After CLEAN and TIN, it has to be HOT.
After the joints were fully tinned, he would sweat them together, adding a
little more
solder if needed.
Modern plumbers put copper water piping together in a manner that would have
put
the old man in his grave. And, they have failures. He never did.
As another has mentioned, you don't heat the solder.. And you dont lay it
on like
a 'dirt dauber'.
You heat the workpiece, and flow the solder onto it. If it is not hot
enough, you will
get what appears to be a joint, but isnt.
A little practice and you will get it.
|
|
|
| Re: Soldering Advice [message #781511 ] |
Sa, 15 Juli 2006 00:27 |
|
you need a bright clean surface when soldering, get the spot hot before
you engage the solder.
>mho
>v fe
>p l a n =A0y o u r =A0t r i p s -=A0u s e=A0 l e s s =A0g a s
|
|
|
Gehe zu:
aktuelle Zeit: Di Sep 7 16:26:31 CEST 2010
Insgesamt benötigte Zeit, um die Seite zu erzeugen: 0,04115 Sekunden |
