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Producers » rec.autos.makers.mazda.miata » Basic Horsepower Upgrades
| Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470456] |
Fri, 07 October 2005 16:51 |
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I'm a rookie mazda owner.
I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions about how to increase the
horsepower via minor/inexpensive changes, such as exhaust or air
filters?
I'm not looking to make my car a racer, just a little bit more balls,
without sacrificing reliability.
Any specific part names/numbers and/or vendors would be appreicated.
ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com
thanks in adavance
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470457 ] |
Fri, 07 October 2005 17:46 |
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On 2005-10-07, ritchiekidd <ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions about how to
> increase the horsepower via minor/inexpensive changes, such as
> exhaust or air filters?
Forced air intake. A supercharger is easier to bolt-on than a
turbo, but offers less boost potential.
Or you can tape cow magnets to the fuel line and add one of
those tornado thingys. Of course it's entirely a placebo
effect, but you get what you pay for. ;)
> I'm not looking to make my car a racer, just a little bit more
> balls, without sacrificing reliability.
Why do people think that the engineers at Mazda would miss
minor/inexpensive changes that increased HP without sacrificing
reliability??? There are entire teams of engineers that work
on that stuff 6 days a week. Yet somehow, soembody thinks they
can spend $20 and 20 minutes and do something that will provide
a real increase in HP.
If you want more power, a super/turbo charger is the only real
answer.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Are you guys lined up
at for the METHADONE PROGRAM
visi.com or FOOD STAMPS??
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470458 ] |
Fri, 07 October 2005 18:25 |
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In article <1128696682.580327.242000 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"ritchiekidd" <ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions about how to increase the
> horsepower via minor/inexpensive changes, such as exhaust or air
> filters?
Except for advancing the timing to 14BTDC (1990-97 cars only), there are
no inexpensive mods that make a noticeable difference. A $400 catback
might give you 3-5 hp, and a header up to 10 hp depending on the year of
your Miata. None of the intakes is worth fooling with, except the
Randall cowl intake will reduce the normal loss of power in hot weather.
If you have a 1.6, the GReddy turbo kit should add ~35 hp for $1300; for
later cars the bottom rung is the JR supercharger, about the same power
for around $3000. Past that, you'll need to upgrade the clutch and start
spending real money.
If you wanted a drag racer, you should have bought a Mustang. Instead of
wasting money under the hood, go with the Miata's strengths by improving
the suspension. Tires, shocks, swaybars, and alignment will make a
difference you can use every mile you drive.
---
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470459 ] |
Fri, 07 October 2005 18:40 |
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Hey Grant - No need to be a dick about it. . .
Why do people think that the engineers at Mazda would miss
minor/inexpensive changes that increased HP without sacrificing
reliability??? There are entire teams of engineers that work
on that stuff 6 days a week. Yet somehow, soembody thinks they
can spend $20 and 20 minutes and do something that will provide
a real increase in HP.
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470460 ] |
Fri, 07 October 2005 18:47 |
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ritchiekidd wrote:
> Hey Grant - No need to be a dick about it. . .
You only get to make one first impression.
>
> Why do people think that the engineers at Mazda would miss
> minor/inexpensive changes that increased HP without sacrificing
> reliability??? There are entire teams of engineers that work
> on that stuff 6 days a week. Yet somehow, soembody thinks they
> can spend $20 and 20 minutes and do something that will provide
> a real increase in HP.
>
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470461 ] |
Fri, 07 October 2005 18:51 |
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On 2005-10-07, ritchiekidd <ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Grant - No need to be a dick about it. . .
Sorry you thought I was being a dick. I've always thought your
question was insulting to us engineers.
> Why do people think that the engineers at Mazda would miss
> minor/inexpensive changes that increased HP without sacrificing
> reliability??? There are entire teams of engineers that work
> on that stuff 6 days a week. Yet somehow, soembody thinks they
> can spend $20 and 20 minutes and do something that will provide
> a real increase in HP.
Hey, it's an honest question.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Am I elected yet?
at
visi.com
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470463 ] |
Fri, 07 October 2005 21:21 |
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Lanny Chambers wrote:
>
> If you wanted a drag racer, you should have bought a Mustang. Instead of
> wasting money under the hood, go with the Miata's strengths by improving
> the suspension. Tires, shocks, swaybars, and alignment will make a
> difference you can use every mile you drive.
>
> ---
> Lanny Chambers
> '94C, St. Louis
> http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
Your statement about getting a Mustang instead of increasing a Miata's
horsepower is idiotic at best.
I am sure that the people at Flying Miata would disagree that turbos for
miatas are a waste of money, or that a turbo is installed only to make
the car a drag racer.
It might be best to also not waste money under the car, say, on a FM
dual exhaust system that is hooked up to an engine without forced
induction. What a waste of *your* money since *I* do not like how that
exhaust looks.
My car has upgraded tires, shocks, sways, and alignment. Has adding a
turbo ruined all of that?
Pat
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470464 ] |
Fri, 07 October 2005 23:01 |
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don't underestimate the importance of the wires. change the spark plug
cables every 30k and the plugs every 15k... get genuine miata cables or look
up comments of aftermartket cables in the garage section of miata.net.
"ritchiekidd" <ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128696682.580327.242000 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'm a rookie mazda owner.
> I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions about how to increase the
> horsepower via minor/inexpensive changes, such as exhaust or air
> filters?
>
> I'm not looking to make my car a racer, just a little bit more balls,
> without sacrificing reliability.
>
> Any specific part names/numbers and/or vendors would be appreicated.
>
> ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com
>
> thanks in adavance
>
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470465 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 00:18 |
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In article <11kd9ss84i1j599 [at] corp.supernews.com>, Grant Edwards <grante [at] visi.com> wrote:
>On 2005-10-07, ritchiekidd <ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Grant - No need to be a dick about it. . .
>
>Sorry you thought I was being a dick. I've always thought your
>question was insulting to us engineers.
>
>> Why do people think that the engineers at Mazda would miss
>> minor/inexpensive changes that increased HP without sacrificing
>> reliability??? There are entire teams of engineers that work
>> on that stuff 6 days a week. Yet somehow, soembody thinks they
>> can spend $20 and 20 minutes and do something that will provide
>> a real increase in HP.
>
>Hey, it's an honest question.
I thought the original question, while an oft asked one, is totally
legit and deserved a better response. But I'd agree the answer is
other than forced induction, not much hp to be found for any
reasonable $$. He's already received good advice.
Now why might we engineers not have supplied that power right of the
bat? I can think of a few reasons: emissions, longevity, economy,
drivability tradeoffs. Or marketing (ie.e. why give a lot of hp in
a base model when you can sell it for a lot more in an uplevel?).
The latter wasn't the case with the Miata, but I would bet it has
been done with many another car.
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470466 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 00:32 |
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On 2005-10-07, Dave <dm [at] nospam.com> wrote:
> Now why might we engineers not have supplied that power right of the
> bat? I can think of a few reasons: emissions, longevity, economy,
> drivability tradeoffs. Or marketing (ie.e. why give a lot of hp in
> a base model when you can sell it for a lot more in an uplevel?).
> The latter wasn't the case with the Miata, but I would bet it has
> been done with many another car.
And possibly insurability. One of the reasons often cited for
the low cost of Miata insurance is that the HP is below some
particular value that separates "economy" cars from "sports" in
the minds of the actuaries.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Darling, my ELBOW
at is FLYING over FRANKFURT,
visi.com Germany...
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470469 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 02:26 |
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In article <aVz1f.19544$zw5.13739 [at] tornado.texas.rr.com>,
pws <pwshelton [at] austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I am sure that the people at Flying Miata would disagree that turbos for
> miatas are a waste of money, or that a turbo is installed only to make
> the car a drag racer.
Sorry you're having a bad day, Pat. Feel free to take it out on me. At
least you didn't call me anything worse than an idiot.
Tomorrow, you'll realize that I meant spending *less* than the cost of a
turbo on a Miata engine is wasteful, whereas spending the same amount on
suspension offers good value. If a Miata owner is looking for useful
power, $1000 worth of intake, headers, and exhaust is practically
guaranteed to disappoint. The original questioner didn't seem ready to
spend the $7000 or so required for a high-boost turbo, clutch, cooling
system upgrade, and all the other stuff that makes a successful FM II
installation. I was advising him not to make the same mistake so many of
us did (while I could afford it, perhaps he cannot).
If I were interested in making my Miata faster, I'd jump on the
Ubercharger in a second. But after a lot of thought, I decided I like it
better the way it is now: using everything the car has to give, and only
popping the hood to check the oil every month. So far, every turbo Miata
driver who's tried to keep up with me in the Ozarks has made me stop
every couple of miles so he could catch up. I think I'm going fast
enough now. If I lived in Colorado, forced induction might have more
appeal.
FWIW, I bought FM Duals for their looks and sound, not for any claims of
more power. De gustibus non disputandum est.
---
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470471 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 03:11 |
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Lanny Chambers wrote:
>
> Sorry you're having a bad day, Pat. Feel free to take it out on me. At
> least you didn't call me anything worse than an idiot.
>
> Tomorrow, you'll realize that I meant spending *less* than the cost of a
> turbo on a Miata engine is wasteful, whereas spending the same amount on
> suspension offers good value. If a Miata owner is looking for useful
> power, $1000 worth of intake, headers, and exhaust is practically
> guaranteed to disappoint. The original questioner didn't seem ready to
> spend the $7000 or so required for a high-boost turbo, clutch, cooling
> system upgrade, and all the other stuff that makes a successful FM II
> installation. I was advising him not to make the same mistake so many of
> us did (while I could afford it, perhaps he cannot).
>
> If I were interested in making my Miata faster, I'd jump on the
> Ubercharger in a second. But after a lot of thought, I decided I like it
> better the way it is now: using everything the car has to give, and only
> popping the hood to check the oil every month. So far, every turbo Miata
> driver who's tried to keep up with me in the Ozarks has made me stop
> every couple of miles so he could catch up. I think I'm going fast
> enough now. If I lived in Colorado, forced induction might have more
> appeal.
>
> FWIW, I bought FM Duals for their looks and sound, not for any claims of
> more power. De gustibus non disputandum est.
>
> ---
> Lanny Chambers
> '94C, St. Louis
> http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
Tomorrow, I will probably continue to realize that part of what you said
to the OP,(I can only tell what you say, not what you mean, I am not
gifted in mind-reading), who wanted to add some power to his car, and
even mentioned that he was not looking to make it a racer, was, and I
quote, "If you wanted a drag racer, you should have bought a Mustang."
Telling someone who is looking to add a few hp to their Miata but is not
looking to race that they should have bought a Mustang if they wanted a
drag racer is something that I consider idiotic, I apologize if that
offends you.
Not that bad a day, just pointing out some facts.
Pat
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470472 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 03:32 |
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Lanny Chambers wrote:
> If I were interested in making my Miata faster, I'd jump on the
> Ubercharger in a second. But after a lot of thought, I decided I like it
> better the way it is now: using everything the car has to give, and only
> popping the hood to check the oil every month. So far, every turbo Miata
> driver who's tried to keep up with me in the Ozarks has made me stop
> every couple of miles so he could catch up. I think I'm going fast
> enough now. If I lived in Colorado, forced induction might have more
> appeal.
>
> FWIW, I bought FM Duals for their looks and sound, not for any claims of
> more power. De gustibus non disputandum est.
>
> ---
> Lanny Chambers
> '94C, St. Louis
> http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
Come on Lanny, admit it, you are just happy to have another chance to
brag about your tremendous driving skills. It must suck to never have
any competition like that. Is your ignition timing advanced? If so, why?
If anything, you should be taking the power down to make things more
challenging, sort of like increasing the difficulty level in a video
game. I would consider putting a stock 1.6 liter engine in your 1994
model, anything to give them at least a small chance of winning just
once. :-)
BTW, how often do you max out your car, and where are these stretches of
road where there is no other traffic, no wildlife, and no police speed
enforcement to worry about?
And you thought I was having a bad day..... ;-)
Pat
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470474 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 06:30 |
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The Miata is a tremondous reliable automobile as buillt.
Most drivers never know the potential of the engine and suspension
because they are reluctant to rev it as it needs to be revved and drive
it as it was meant to be driven. When my car was new, I was always
wanting more power until I realized all I was needing was already
there. I just had to push a little harder to find it. That is where
the fun is. Not many cars connect you to the road like this one can if
you let it.
To the original poster, take it out with the top down, find a good
road and have fun. Glance in the rearview mirror and see the smile on
your face.
Someone will beat you off of a light in the city, who cares.
I have had mine for 11 years and it is as much fun now as it was when
new.
I do suggest the timing bump to 14 degrees. It really made a
difference for me. That is a totally free mod.
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470475 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 06:30 |
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The Miata is a tremondous reliable automobile as buillt.
Most drivers never know the potential of the engine and suspension
because they are reluctant to rev it as it needs to be revved and drive
it as it was meant to be driven. When my car was new, I was always
wanting more power until I realized all I was needing was already
there. I just had to push a little harder to find it. That is where
the fun is. Not many cars connect you to the road like this one can if
you let it.
To the original poster, take it out with the top down, find a good
road and have fun. Glance in the rearview mirror and see the smile on
your face.
Someone will beat you off of a light in the city, who cares.
I have had mine for 11 years and it is as much fun now as it was when
new.
I do suggest the timing bump to 14 degrees. It really made a
difference for me. That is a totally free mod.
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470476 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 07:35 |
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In article <nkF1f.19831$Q53.2823 [at] tornado.texas.rr.com>,
pws <pwshelton [at] austin.rr.com> wrote:
> BTW, how often do you max out your car, and where are these stretches of
> road where there is no other traffic, no wildlife, and no police speed
> enforcement to worry about?
In case you actually wanted to know:
In the Missouri Ozarks (Mark Twain National Forest). No cops, no
traffic, no houses, no intersections for miles. Critters are an issue at
night, so I only play in the daytime. I don't "max out" anything; I
always leave enough reserve to deal with surprises. Perhaps my setup has
more reserve grip than most--that's one of my goals--or perhaps I'm more
familiar with just how much is left, thus comfortable with using more of
the expendable part. If I squeal the tires, it means I made a mistake
and had to use some of the reserve. That's bad form, and doesn't happen
often.
When I started paying attention to how much throttle I was actually
using in corners, I was startled that it was rarely more than 50%. You
don't need much power to go fast, you just need to plan ahead and not
use the brakes much. I hardly ever go over 80 mph.
FWIW, I was autocrossing successfully over 35 years ago. Nothing magical
about it, cars are simply tools with predictable behavior. Anyone with
motivation and opportunity can learn technique, it just takes
instruction and practice. You also need to know when and where NOT to
drive fast.
And yes, my timing is advanced...I like the snappy response in town.
---
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470478 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 13:24 |
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Lanny Chambers wrote:
>
> In case you actually wanted to know:
Well, I still don't "know". Hard to believe that they would build a road
just for you and a few other racers to play on, seeing how there is "no"
traffic. Perhaps you meant "little traffic"? If so, these are still
unknowing and at-risk participants in your public road races where you
have to keep pulling over every couple of miles to wait for those turbo
miatas to catch up to you. (yeah, right)
The main advantage to not telling lies and making up stories is that you
are not required to have a good memory. Of course, you have nothing to
prove to me, you were autocrossing before I was born, yada yada. Believe
me, I have heard it all before for many years, but none who have said it
ever went on to become professional race car drivers, hmmm.....
Have a good day Lanny, mine is starting out quite well, but then, I have
already been out driving my miata that the previous owner ruined by
adding all of that power. The turbo comes off today, what the hell was I
thinking? Having minivans out-accelerate me at lights was so much fun in
my last miata.
Heh-Heh
Pat
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470482 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 17:20 |
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"ritchiekidd" <ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com> wrote in:
> I'm a rookie mazda owner.
> I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions about how to increase the
> horsepower via minor/inexpensive changes, such as exhaust or air
> filters?
Dunno about "minor" or "inexpensive", these are relative terms. For a tweak
that will improve performance check here:
http://www.diamondmotorsport.com/greenmiatas.htm
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470483 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 18:45 |
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Ritchie -
As one of the earlier posters noted, we only get to make one first
impression. To which, "Welcome to the group! Enjoy your Miata!"
One of the first steps you need to take is head to
http://www.miata.net -- There you will find more information than you
will most likely ever use.
For "go fast" parts, start with:
www.flyinmiata.com
www.miatamania.com
www.good-win-racing.com
www.mmmiata.com
www.gomiata.com
Bottom line, the Miata was designed to be a QUICK (not fast), superior
handling sportscar.
You can gain increases of power, but most will cost more than a few
dollars. -- But don't forget power without control is useless.
Tires, suspension and brakes are critical. Then look at increasing
power.
To improve the performance, without heading the forced induction
route, you will need to increase the ability for the engine to breath.
-- This means intake, heads, exhaust and cooling. By replacing the
intake, putting a freer flowing exhaust (from the header to tail-pipe)
and gettting headwork done will run you $2,500 to $4,000, depending on
where you go and what you do.
IMHO, quite often headwork is overlooked when folks look for power.
-- There is additional flow (power) available, that would have been
cost prohibitive for manufacturers to produce. But done right, it's
not "cheap".
Regardless, use the 'Net, ask your questions, welcome to the Legion of
Miata-philes and enjoy the ride...
- L
On 7 Oct 2005 07:51:22 -0700, "ritchiekidd" <ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com>
wrote:
>I'm a rookie mazda owner.
>I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions about how to increase the
>horsepower via minor/inexpensive changes, such as exhaust or air
>filters?
>
>I'm not looking to make my car a racer, just a little bit more balls,
>without sacrificing reliability.
>
>Any specific part names/numbers and/or vendors would be appreicated.
>
>ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com
>
>thanks in adavance
'97 STO, "Chouki"
// Change TEJAS to TX to reply via eMail //
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470486 ] |
Sat, 08 October 2005 19:39 |
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You don't mention which year Miata you have, but this is what I have
done with my '91: headers, exhaust, timing advance, cold air
inductionwith high performance air filter and vented light lid, spark
plug wires, and (very important) RX7 air flow meter. I noticed a very
nice improvement with these modifications...not like forced induction,
but a nice improvement. Couple these mods with slightly lowered
springs, sway bars, bracing, Momo Competition steering wheel, higher
performance brake pads, metal brake lines, and slightly larger Panasport
wheels...and I would say that the driving experience is greatly improved.
ritchiekidd wrote:
> I'm a rookie mazda owner.
> I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions about how to increase the
> horsepower via minor/inexpensive changes, such as exhaust or air
> filters?
>
> I'm not looking to make my car a racer, just a little bit more balls,
> without sacrificing reliability.
>
> Any specific part names/numbers and/or vendors would be appreicated.
>
> ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com
>
> thanks in adavance
>
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #470493 ] |
Sun, 09 October 2005 07:35 |
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Christopher Muto wrote:
> don't underestimate the importance of the wires. change the spark plug
> cables every 30k and the plugs every 15k... get genuine miata cables or look
> up comments of aftermartket cables in the garage section of miata.net.
I have an '02 SE, 32k miles, 7psi JRSC. I've noticed some roughness at WOT
lately, started me thinking about plug wires - the '01 and later is a coil-on-plug
design with 2 coils and two cables. One cable is quite long and the other is
quite short and I suspected that the longer cable was reducing spark for those
two plugs. Replacing the wires on the '01 and later is a pain; NGK doesn't make
Blue wires for it. I ended up with NAPA Belden premium cables ($50 for the set of 2).
The stock wires measured something like 8k for the long one and 1.5k for the
short one; the NAPA Belden replacements measured around 500 and 100 ohms.
WOT roughness is completely gone and idle/low-end response is detectably
improved.
Dana
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #484340 ] |
Sun, 16 October 2005 13:54 |
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Does this mean you need to use higher octane fuel to avoid pinging? With
older pre-EFI cars I have always tuned timing to just below where I star to
hear pinging. It is amazing how much variation there can be from one batch
of fuel to the next, but generally I could get more advance and a little
more grunt with premium fuel. Of course this increases running costs.
"Lanny Chambers" <lanny [at] hummingbirds.net> wrote in message
news:lanny-29AF52.11250007102005 [at] newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> In article <1128696682.580327.242000 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "ritchiekidd" <ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions about how to increase the
>> horsepower via minor/inexpensive changes, such as exhaust or air
>> filters?
>
> Except for advancing the timing to 14BTDC (1990-97 cars only), there are
> no inexpensive mods that make a noticeable difference.
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #484343 ] |
Sun, 16 October 2005 16:37 |
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In article <4352416d$1 [at] quokka.wn.com.au>,
"Mal Osborne" <noone [at] nowhere.com> wrote:
> Does this mean you need to use higher octane fuel to avoid pinging?
Maybe; 14BTDC is near the edge for 87 octane fuel, and whether it will
ping will depend on manufacturing tolerances, intake temperature, and
carbon buildup. At 14, my car used to ping on 87 above 60 degrees F
ambient, and on 89 above 80F. A Randall cowl intake tube now lets me run
87 year round, with no pinging up to at least 104F. It should pay for
itself in, oh, about 143 years...
> With older pre-EFI cars I have always tuned timing to just below
> where I star to hear pinging.
Same here, usually around 10 degrees more advanced than the factory
setting. But when ECU ignition maps replaced vacuum and centrifugal
distributor advances, that stopped working. The "new" way is much, much
better!
---
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #484347 ] |
Sun, 16 October 2005 17:17 |
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"Mal Osborne" <noone [at] nowhere.com> wrote:
>Does this mean you need to use higher octane fuel to avoid pinging? With
>older pre-EFI cars I have always tuned timing to just below where I star to
>hear pinging. It is amazing how much variation there can be from one batch
>of fuel to the next, but generally I could get more advance and a little
>more grunt with premium fuel. Of course this increases running costs.
More advance requires indeed higher octane. However, there is some dyno
data around somewhere for an M1 Miata that going from 14 to 18 actually
reduces maximum horsepower again, though there is still and improvement
at lower rpm. People find that 18 degrees BTDC definitely requires
premium fuel, 14 might. A good detergent fuel may help, since it can
reduce carbon deposits that promote knock.
Leon
>"Lanny Chambers" <lanny [at] hummingbirds.net> wrote in message
>news:lanny-29AF52.11250007102005 [at] newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
>> In article <1128696682.580327.242000 [at] g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> "ritchiekidd" <ritchiekidd [at] hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to know if anyone has suggestions about how to increase the
>>> horsepower via minor/inexpensive changes, such as exhaust or air
>>> filters?
>>
>> Except for advancing the timing to 14BTDC (1990-97 cars only), there are
>> no inexpensive mods that make a noticeable difference.
>
--
Leon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm [at] dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516328 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 00:21 |
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In article <Xns96FD441B0F983xs11eyahoocom [at] 68.6.19.6>,
XS11E <xs11eNO [at] SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> dm [at] nospam.com (Dave) wrote in
> news:2en8f.115920$7b6.88315 [at] twister.nyroc.rr.com:
>
> > In article <IAi8f.22266$6e1.17583 [at] newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
> > "Dan Fraser" <dmfraser [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>I was trying to decide between the Miata and a Mustang. If you
> >>really want a lot of power (and are willing to blow it out your
> >>pipe at $3.00 a gallon) you should have bought a Mustang.
> >
> > What if he wants the Miata's handling, but with more power??
>
> He won't get it with a Mustang. They're great cars and I planned on
> buying one before I got my Miata but handling is NOT what they do well!
I don't know that I agree with that. If you know how to drive and if you
have the right Mustang, the pony handles extremely well.
Besides, the Mustang will be in the next county before the Miata comes
out of the turn. Can't beat cubes, especially coming out of turns.
Hard choice, if I had to pick one over the other. Probably the Mustang
but not by much.
Rick Rikoski
'92 Miata
'01 Mustang Bullitt
'01 BMW 330XI
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516329 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 01:00 |
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rikoski [at] earthlink.net wrote in
news:rikoski-F3CB71.17212713112005 [at] comcast.dca.giganews.com:
> In article <Xns96FD441B0F983xs11eyahoocom [at] 68.6.19.6>,
> XS11E <xs11eNO [at] SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>> He won't get it with a Mustang. They're great cars and I planned
>> on buying one before I got my Miata but handling is NOT what they
>> do well!
>
> I don't know that I agree with that. If you know how to drive and
> if you have the right Mustang, the pony handles extremely well.
Not by comparison.
> Besides, the Mustang will be in the next county before the Miata
> comes out of the turn. Can't beat cubes, especially coming out of
> turns.
Sure you can.
> Hard choice, if I had to pick one over the other. Probably the
> Mustang but not by much.
It was a very easy choice for me! Miata = 1, Mustang = 0
I like the Mustang VERY much (except the new ones which have been
beaten severely with an ugly stick) but the Miata is MUCH more what I
want, a sports car, not a Falcon convertible! <GD&RLH!>
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516330 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 01:01 |
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rikoski [at] earthlink.net wrote:
> I don't know that I agree with that. If you know how to drive and if you
> have the right Mustang, the pony handles extremely well.
Compared to a truck perhaps. Compared to a properly setup miata, never.
> Besides, the Mustang will be in the next county before the Miata comes
> out of the turn. Can't beat cubes, especially coming out of turns.
It's called power to weight. The Lotus Elise has a tiny engine and not
too much horsepower, but it will blow away a Mustang badly in any
situation that involves corners. You need those cubes when your car
weighs that much.
Add forced induction to the miata and the power to weight ratios get
much closer, with the miata possibly having the advantage over the Mustang.
> Hard choice, if I had to pick one over the other. Probably the Mustang
> but not by much.
Nice to have the option to choose anyway. I am a lot more interested in
that Beemer than the Pony car. :-)
>
> Rick Rikoski
>
> '92 Miata
> '01 Mustang Bullitt
> '01 BMW 330XI
Pat
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516333 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 01:37 |
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In article <rikoski-F3CB71.17212713112005 [at] comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
rikoski [at] earthlink.net wrote:
> Besides, the Mustang will be in the next county before the Miata comes
> out of the turn. Can't beat cubes, especially coming out of turns.
My condolences, Rick, that your roads aren't curvy enough. I had a lot
of fun in the deep Ozarks one afternoon with a late-model Z28 (handles
much better than a Mustang), who was obviously surprised that I kept
reappearing in his mirror before the start of every straight. We had a
good old time for about 20 miles, then he turned off with a honk and a
friendly wave.
--
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516334 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 02:02 |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:21:27 GMT, rikoski [at] earthlink.net wrote in
news:rikoski-F3CB71.17212713112005 [at] comcast.dca.giganews.com:
> I don't know that I agree with that. If you know how to drive and if
> you have the right Mustang, the pony handles extremely well.
>
> Besides, the Mustang will be in the next county before the Miata comes
> out of the turn. Can't beat cubes, especially coming out of turns.
I'm not sure who to believe then, the Jim Russell instructor
who took me for laps in the sponsor supplied Mustang around
Mt. Tremblant at ten tenths, or yourself. The entire time he
was grumbling about how poorly the car handled.
Even with the multitude of shock absorbers trying in vain to
stabilize the rear axle.
I also know an instructor who regularily embarrasses big
'cube' cars on the track with his little 'cube' Miata.
He also owns a Mustang as a winter beater.
There's certainly lots of fun to be had with gobs of torque
and a solid rear axle, but it's not the same kind of fun
you can have in a Miata.
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516336 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 04:04 |
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In article <EtQdf.21783$jN6.5115 [at] tornado.texas.rr.com>, pws <pwshelton [at] austin.rr.com> wrote:
>rikoski [at] earthlink.net wrote:
>> Besides, the Mustang will be in the next county before the Miata comes
>> out of the turn. Can't beat cubes, especially coming out of turns.
>
>It's called power to weight. The Lotus Elise has a tiny engine and not
>too much horsepower, but it will blow away a Mustang badly in any
>situation that involves corners. You need those cubes when your car
>weighs that much.
Wow, this thread gets another life!
Hey, I'm a Miata owner. I'm a fan of lightweight sports cars with
feel. That's why I have the Miata. I don't care that much about
big time hp numbers, but ...
Sometimes I think Miata owners live in their own private world.
Keep repeating the mantra of how great a handling car the Miata is.
Cite many stories of sticking with all sorts of sports cars in the
twisties or at some track day.
Get real. Primary factor is the driver. Both in skill and, in the
case of public road anecdotes, balls/stupidity. But most any track
test (not including auto-X) will show that "better handling" only
makes up for so much. Given an equal driver, power/weight has a
decided advantage.
And weight aside, the 300 hp Mustang still has a significant
power/weight advantage over our Miata. So, back to the power
upgrades ...
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516337 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 04:34 |
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Dave wrote:
> Wow, this thread gets another life!
Of course.
> Hey, I'm a Miata owner. I'm a fan of lightweight sports cars with
> feel. That's why I have the Miata. I don't care that much about
> big time hp numbers, but ...
>
> Sometimes I think Miata owners live in their own private world.
> Keep repeating the mantra of how great a handling car the Miata is.
> Cite many stories of sticking with all sorts of sports cars in the
> twisties or at some track day.
My own private world? I mentioned the Elise, I am obviously aware of
other cars out there. The miata is one of the best-handling
mass-produced cars ever made, that is not a mantra, it is a fact. It
certainly handles far better than that Mustang.
> Get real. Primary factor is the driver.
Of course it is, to a limit. Put Jeff Gordon in a beat-up old Toyota
Tercel and me in a new Corvette, though, and I have a feeling I am going
to win the race.
Will a good driver in a Mustang beat a poor driver in a miata on a
twisty track? Of course they will. That is obvious.
Both in skill and, in the
> case of public road anecdotes, balls/stupidity. But most any track
> test (not including auto-X) will show that "better handling" only
> makes up for so much. Given an equal driver, power/weight has a
> decided advantage.
I agree that the power is an advantage, but how does the weight help?
>
> And weight aside, the 300 hp Mustang still has a significant
> power/weight advantage over our Miata. So, back to the power
> upgrades ...
The power upgrades make the miata a very fast car without destroying the
handling. There are suspension upgrades for the Mustang, but nothing
that will make it handle *well* compared to cars like the miata that are
both lightweight and use modern technology for their suspensions.
Pat
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516339 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 05:05 |
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I like my Miata but in the 13 years that I have owned it, I have also
owned other cars that on a daily basis I preferred to drive. Like my
former VW Corrado SLC.
The Miata is actually a rather slow car which has outstanding weight
balance and a well-designed suspension.
Within its limitations, it handles well enough but on two-lane roads has
little margin to complete a blind pass.
That "handling through the turns business" is mostly done at 35 to 55
mph, yes? What's up with that?
All of this is in dry weather conditions, anyway. The Miata, like the
Bullitt is useless in the winter without snow tires. And even then would
be no better off than a Taurus with snow times. Actually the Taurus
being front wheel drive would probably come out ahead.
I park both the Miata and the Mustang in the garage for the Winter and
wait for warmer times.
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516340 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 05:37 |
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rikoski [at] earthlink.net wrote:
>
> The Miata is actually a rather slow car which has outstanding weight
> balance and a well-designed suspension.
>
> Within its limitations, it handles well enough but on two-lane roads has
> little margin to complete a blind pass.
The miata can be driven fast even without horsepower upgrades, but you
are correct, a stock one is not going to accelerate very quickly.
Put 12 pounds of boost on that engine and then tell me it is a slow car.
It can get downright scary, and I almost never need to push the gas
pedal down all the way, passing or not.
Pat
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516342 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 06:39 |
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In article <rikoski-A46011.22055513112005 [at] comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
rikoski [at] earthlink.net wrote:
> That "handling through the turns business" is mostly done at 35 to 55
> mph, yes? What's up with that?
I dunno--perhaps limited expectations, or a compulsion to obey speed
laws? If the road is dry, the tires are first-rate, and the driver has
had some training, as a rule he can double the number on most yellow
"SAFE SPEED" signs and still have enough reserve capability to deal
safely with the unexpected. Miatas are not fast...but they don't have to
slow down as much or as often as most cars.
You should take your Miata to a track education day and discover what it
can do. I think you underestimate its potential.
--
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516343 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 07:16 |
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pws <pwshelton [at] austin.rr.com> wrote in
news:eBTdf.21807$jN6.5286 [at] tornado.texas.rr.com:
> Will a good driver in a Mustang beat a poor driver in a miata on a
> twisty track? Of course they will. That is obvious.
Not obvious at all, not even true maybe. "Good driver", "poor driver"
and "twisty track" are relative terms. How good is the Mustang driver?
How poor it the Miata driver? How twisty is the track?
I think you've made too broad a generalization...
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516344 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 08:56 |
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XS11E wrote:
>
> Not obvious at all, not even true maybe. "Good driver", "poor driver"
> and "twisty track" are relative terms. How good is the Mustang driver?
> How poor it the Miata driver? How twisty is the track?
>
> I think you've made too broad a generalization...
Ok, no argument here. I am guilty as charged.
To clarify, I am referring to a really good driver in the Mustang, not
necessarily competition level but someone who knows what they are doing
versus someone in the miata who is such a complete novice, or just so
bad, that they are as likely to end up sliding off of the track as they
are to finish the race.
Dave pointed out that it was the driver that mattered.
I was simply agreeing with this statement to an extent, a better driver
can win a race in a slower car, unless the difference is extreme as as
in the case of my Tercel versus Corvette example.
This is assuming that the Corvette driver can stay on the track, but
that shouldn't be too hard to do if all you have to do is beat a Tercel. :-)
Pat - off to bed, finally. With a predicted high of 83 tomorrow, a full
tank of gas, and the day off, I know what I'll be doing.
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516345 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 09:02 |
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Lanny Chambers wrote:
> In article <rikoski-A46011.22055513112005 [at] comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
> rikoski [at] earthlink.net wrote:
>
>
>>That "handling through the turns business" is mostly done at 35 to 55
>>mph, yes? What's up with that?
>
>
> I dunno--perhaps limited expectations, or a compulsion to obey speed
> laws? If the road is dry, the tires are first-rate, and the driver has
> had some training, as a rule he can double the number on most yellow
> "SAFE SPEED" signs and still have enough reserve capability to deal
> safely with the unexpected. Miatas are not fast...but they don't have to
> slow down as much or as often as most cars.
>
> You should take your Miata to a track education day and discover what it
> can do. I think you underestimate its potential.
>
I have seen the most ridiculous example so far. There is a curve at some
road construction where the sign recommends slowing down to 10 mph.
Large construction trucks take it at 25 to 30 mph. I went through it at
55 mph and still had lots of reserve, so you could probably take that
one at 7 or 8 times the suggested speed. :-)
Pat
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516346 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 16:00 |
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Lanny Chambers <lanny [at] hummingbirds.net> wrote in
news:lanny-4AA3E5.23383813112005 [at] newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com:
> I dunno--perhaps limited expectations, or a compulsion to obey
> speed laws? If the road is dry, the tires are first-rate, and the
> driver has had some training, as a rule he can double the number
> on most yellow "SAFE SPEED" signs and still have enough reserve
> capability to deal safely with the unexpected.
Wrong, you may deal with the unexpected but what about the expected?
Going fast will irritate Mr. Policeman and when he's irritated the ears
on his horse will turn red and that will cause severe injury to your
wallet (don't ask how I know this!) so to be safe, drive so as not to
irritate Mr. Policeman.
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516347 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 16:22 |
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On 2005-11-14, XS11E <xs11eNO [at] SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> Lanny Chambers <lanny [at] hummingbirds.net> wrote in
> news:lanny-4AA3E5.23383813112005 [at] newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com:
>
>> I dunno--perhaps limited expectations, or a compulsion to obey
>> speed laws? If the road is dry, the tires are first-rate, and the
>> driver has had some training, as a rule he can double the number
>> on most yellow "SAFE SPEED" signs and still have enough reserve
>> capability to deal safely with the unexpected.
>
> Wrong, you may deal with the unexpected but what about the expected?
> Going fast will irritate Mr. Policeman and when he's irritated the ears
> on his horse will turn red and that will cause severe injury to your
> wallet (don't ask how I know this!) so to be safe, drive so as not to
> irritate Mr. Policeman.
In the states I've lived in, the yellow "speed" signs at curves
are not regulatory.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! We just joined the
at civil hair patrol!
visi.com
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| Re: Basic Horsepower Upgrades [message #516348 ] |
Mon, 14 November 2005 16:33 |
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In article <eBTdf.21807$jN6.5286 [at] tornado.texas.rr.com>, pws <pwshelton [at] austin.rr.com> wrote:
>Dave wrote:
First, let me say I think we agree on more than we'll admit. But I
do think that we have a little too much faith in our trusty Miatas.
>I agree that the power is an advantage, but how does the weight help?
It doesn't. Never said it did. Miata owners, me included, worship
at the "add lightness" temple (noting your Elise comment and I too
want one). Yes, light is good. But I think we all overestimate it.
But I submit power/weight is by far the biggest component in racing
after the driver (assuming a decently sorted suspension). Sure, make
it light and you've solved the equation. So does adding power.
Next, any lightweight-disciple will say "yeah, but light makes for
better cornering and braking". To an extent, I agree. But you can
make anything brake and corner with great tires, big brakes, and a
well-sorted suspension. "But they all add weight...". Yes, but you
can still make that up with added hp. Vipers, GT CTS-V race cars,
and many others go very, very fast and still weigh 3500 lbs.
Listen, I don't want to argue myself into a corner, so I'll state
"YES, LIGHT IS GOOD". But it isn't going to make up for a piss-poor
power/weight *on a race track*.
Look at that Automobile article where they had 9 track cars. The
Elise finished mid-pack.
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.
php?s=&threadid=3270&highlight=automobile+magazine
Further, frankly, I think we overestimate the Miata's handling. It
has *fun* handling. Nice balance, lots of feel, good stick
(rubber-dependent). But out of the box, too much roll, too much
weight transfer (though it makes it fun). Yes, aftermarket can
address all that ... as it can with a Mustang. On the road, any of
these cars is a lot more capable than what we do with them. If not,
you are a danger (sand, oil, deer, bicyclist ...).
Honestly, I have no idea how well a stock Mustang GT handles. I
wouldn't believe what I read here anyway. Most everyone says their
car handles great. And will say the other guy's (especially
American cars) suck. But handling is so subjective it is a
near-meaningless statement. Bottom line, I'd look for the same
very competent driver running both a Miata and a Mustang GT stock.
My bet: on a track other than auto-X, no contest.
I don't have any proof, but here's an interesting article ...
http://www.edmunds.
com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=107486?flushCache=true
We all agree the RX-8 is a fine handling car akin to the Miata? And
it has much better power/weight, so it should be faster on the
track? Well, here's three drivers of very different ability levels
lapping it and the Mustang GT (and others). They were all about 3
sec a lap faster in the junky Ford than the RX-8. Certainly not
conclusive, but doesn't it make one stop and reconsider their
preconceptions?
I still prefer my Miata. But I wouldn't diss anyone who either (a)
prefers the Mustang or (b) wants to add power to their Miata.
My apologies for the long-winder post ... if you got here ...
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