| nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #454992] |
Tue, 27 September 2005 22:38 |
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krusty kritter Wrote:
> jlpridge wrote:
> -
> Part B of further testing. I just finished testing that
> involves the switched 12V supply input to the rectifier and based on
> the results I got the electrex chart says that I have a bad
> connection
> from the battery(+) through the ignition switch to the rectifier. It
> just so happens that they say this is the most difficult to find. Any
> advice would be most helpful.-
>
> The DC output from rectifier ordinarily goes straight to the battery
> positive terminal, and another wire will go to the main fuse in the
> fuse block. From there, the power will normally go to the ignition
> switch, and when you turn the ignition switch on, power will go back
> to
> the other fuses in the fuse box.
>
> If the DC power has to go through the ignition switch before it can
> get
> back to the battery, that means you would have up to 25 amps at 12
> volts going though the ignition switch!
>
> I recommend verifying Electrex's assertion involving the ignition
> switch by studying the wiring diagram in your owner's manual. If the
> battery charging current does in fact go through the ignition switch,
> I
> recommend touching the back side of the switch very carefully after
> the
> engine has been running a few minutes. If the wires on the switch are
> getting hotter than hell, the switch may be your problem. I have
> burned
> up two ignition switches on different vehicles before...
Krusty,
The wording is as follows: "Bad connection from the battery (+)
through the ignition switch to the switched +12v supply-input on the
rectifier. Check the whole electrical circuit. This is one of the most
difficult faults to find. Suspect the ignition switch itself, the fuse
box and its connections. The rectifier thinks the battery voltage is
too low while the voltage is correct or too high. Disconnect all
terminals and clean them with contact cleaner." Hopefully this will
clarify some things.
Jeff
--
jlpridge
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #454995 ] |
Wed, 28 September 2005 00:04 |
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jlpridge wrote:
> krusty kritter Wrote:
>> jlpridge wrote:
>> -
>> Part B of further testing. I just finished testing that
>> involves the switched 12V supply input to the rectifier and based on
>> the results I got the electrex chart says that I have a bad
>> connection
>> from the battery(+) through the ignition switch to the rectifier. It
>> just so happens that they say this is the most difficult to find. Any
>> advice would be most helpful.-
>>
>> The DC output from rectifier ordinarily goes straight to the battery
>> positive terminal, and another wire will go to the main fuse in the
>> fuse block. From there, the power will normally go to the ignition
>> switch, and when you turn the ignition switch on, power will go back
>> to
>> the other fuses in the fuse box.
>>
>> If the DC power has to go through the ignition switch before it can
>> get
>> back to the battery, that means you would have up to 25 amps at 12
>> volts going though the ignition switch!
>>
>> I recommend verifying Electrex's assertion involving the ignition
>> switch by studying the wiring diagram in your owner's manual. If the
>> battery charging current does in fact go through the ignition switch,
>> I
>> recommend touching the back side of the switch very carefully after
>> the
>> engine has been running a few minutes. If the wires on the switch are
>> getting hotter than hell, the switch may be your problem. I have
>> burned
>> up two ignition switches on different vehicles before...
> The wording is as follows: "Bad connection from the battery (+)
> through the ignition switch to the switched +12v supply-input on the
> rectifier. Check the whole electrical circuit. This is one of the most
> difficult faults to find. Suspect the ignition switch itself, the fuse
> box and its connections. The rectifier thinks the battery voltage is
> too low while the voltage is correct or too high. Disconnect all
> terminals and clean them with contact cleaner." Hopefully this will
> clarify some things.
This is a voltage regulator with a voltage sense line (a Kelvin
connection for my EE friends)- my GL1200A had this exact problem.
After cleaning all the connectors involved, the voltage drop was
still larger than I liked, so I simply wired the regulator's sense
line directly (thru a fuse) to the battery positive. I was worried
that the regulator might drain current through the sense line when
the bike isn't running but if it does, it's down in the microamps.
Now the battery voltage is forced exactly to what the regulator
wants it to be. A bodge, I admit, but it worked fine for me.
HTH
--
Mark '01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '86 GL1200A '81 CM400T
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #454996 ] |
Wed, 28 September 2005 00:19 |
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jlpridge wrote:
> The wording is as follows: "Bad connection from the battery (+)
> through the ignition switch to the switched +12v supply-input on the
> rectifier. Check the whole electrical circuit. This is one of the most
> difficult faults to find. Suspect the ignition switch itself, the fuse
> box and its connections. The rectifier thinks the battery voltage is
> too low while the voltage is correct or too high. Disconnect all
> terminals and clean them with contact cleaner." Hopefully this will
> clarify some things.
Yes, I think I understand what Electrex is trying to say. It's just
that running the battery *charging* wire from the rectifier DC output
through the ignition switch to the battery terminal is such a bad idea
because it requires the ignition switch to carry so much current.
However. There are some Hondas that have six terminals instead of five
terminals coming from the rectifier regulator.
The three AC inputs, a DC positive output and a DC negative output can
also be found on the typical five wire regulator. Charging voltage in a
five wire RR is monitored directly from the positive battery terminal
or from a point between one pair of diodes *inside* the regulator unit
itself in a five wire RR unit.
The sixth wire on some Hondas is a sensor wire. If I understand the
sensor wire business correctly from what some Honda riders have posted,
the sensor wire seems to monitor charging voltage at some remote point
on the battery bus or on the ignition bus. If the sensor circuit has to
add the voltage drop across dirty ignition switch contacts and corroded
electrical connectors, it may sense low charging voltage and may not
tell the silicon control rectifier inside the RR unit to ground out the
stator.
That could result in frying the stator.
It's no wonder Honda riders have been cutting off their electrical
connectors and soldering the wires together to get rid of all the high
resistance connections.
It seems to me that the best place to attach a sensing wire that's
supposed to monitor charging voltage would be directly to the battery!
So. How many wires total go to your rectifier regulator unit, five or
six?
And, have you done that open circuit voltage test I mentioned?
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #455023 ] |
Wed, 28 September 2005 15:42 |
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Mark Olson wrote:
> This is a voltage regulator with a voltage sense line (a Kelvin
> connection for my EE friends)- my GL1200A had this exact problem.
> After cleaning all the connectors involved, the voltage drop was
> still larger than I liked, so I simply wired the regulator's sense
> line directly (thru a fuse) to the battery positive. I was worried
> that the regulator might drain current through the sense line when
> the bike isn't running but if it does, it's down in the microamps.
> Now the battery voltage is forced exactly to what the regulator
> wants it to be. A bodge, I admit, but it worked fine for me.
It seems that all Honda is doing by using a remote sensing wire is
saving about 1/100th of an amp current drain...
I learned a great deal about voltage regulation and electronic ignition
systems from a set of motorcycle repair manuals I found in the local
library back in the 1970's. The typical owner's manual will have wiring
diagrams showing all the wires going to mysterious empty boxes or
circles.
But this set of manuals showed diagrams and schematics and even gave
resistance values for components, so I copied those diagrams for future
reference as at least typical wiring and resistance values.
The current reducing resistors that tailor the current going to the
zener diode that triggers the thyristor in a shunt type voltage
regulator might total around 1100 ohms, as I recall.
If current flows through those resistors all the time, I calculate that
you'd have 0.01 amperes flowing through them, the battery would take
1400 hours, or 58 days to discharge down to 12 volts...
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #455026 ] |
Wed, 28 September 2005 19:40 |
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krusty kritter <kriyamanna [at] aol.com> wrote:
>
> Mark Olson wrote:
>
>> This is a voltage regulator with a voltage sense line (a Kelvin
>> connection for my EE friends)- my GL1200A had this exact problem.
>> After cleaning all the connectors involved, the voltage drop was
>> still larger than I liked, so I simply wired the regulator's sense
>> line directly (thru a fuse) to the battery positive. I was worried
>> that the regulator might drain current through the sense line when
>> the bike isn't running but if it does, it's down in the microamps.
>> Now the battery voltage is forced exactly to what the regulator
>> wants it to be. A bodge, I admit, but it worked fine for me.
>
> It seems that all Honda is doing by using a remote sensing wire is
> saving about 1/100th of an amp current drain...
No- the worry about long-term current drain due to me moving the remote
sense wire so that it isn't switched anymore, is a side issue.
The remote sensing wire allows the regulator to monitor a particular
node in the charging circuit and adjust the regulator's output so that
the monitored node is forced to the desired voltage. In this case,
the positive battery terminal _should_ have been the node of interest,
but Honda in their infinite wisdom decided to force the +12V bus on
the switched side of the ignition switch to a voltage appropriate for
battery charging.
This wouldn't be a problem in a brand new bike with nice clean and springy
BeCu connectors, but on an old bike with dirty and tired connectors there
is significant voltage drop through the ignition switch and all the other
connectors (and on a Gold Wing there are many) between the output of the
regulator and the positive battery lead. So the switched side of the
ignition switch is at a voltage appropriate for charging the battery,
lets say ~14.5V, yet the battery itself is seeing somewhere between 0.5
and 1V _MORE_ than that, so the battery eventually gets cooked.
You would actually be better off without the sense lead in this case,
since the voltage drop on the big wires between the regulator output and
the positive battery lead is far less than the voltage drop through the
less robust wiring routed through the ignition switch.
--
Mark '01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '86 GL1200A '81 CM400T
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