| 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #448877] |
Mon, 26 September 2005 05:06 |
|
Repaired the famous starter problem over the weekend and when starting
up - I noticed the neutral light was off (even though it was in
neutral) and I could barely get into a gear grinding the whole time -
The clutch works but when I try to go down to first or up to second it
just grinds. Power off the bike and I can kick it into gear; start it
- then I might be able to bring back to neutral but thats about it.
Also when I have up on center stand I can get into gear but must hold
the shifter down to maintain in gear (wheel spinning). If I let up it
just goes back to neutral; grinds when I try to shift. Could I have
installed the internal shift linkage incorrectly? Of course the trans
and clutch worked perfectly before the repair! I have the manual and
was very careful while doing this. Any suggestions would be greatly
appreciated - thanks in advance, Bill
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #454952 ] |
Mon, 26 September 2005 16:12 |
|
Bill wrote:
> Repaired the famous starter problem over the weekend and when starting
> up - I noticed the neutral light was off (even though it was in
> neutral) and I could barely get into a gear grinding the whole time -
> The clutch works but when I try to go down to first or up to second it
> just grinds. Power off the bike and I can kick it into gear; start it
> - then I might be able to bring back to neutral but thats about it.
> Also when I have up on center stand I can get into gear but must hold
> the shifter down to maintain in gear (wheel spinning). If I let up it
> just goes back to neutral; grinds when I try to shift. Could I have
> installed the internal shift linkage incorrectly? Of course the trans
> and clutch worked perfectly before the repair! I have the manual and
> was very careful while doing this. Any suggestions would be greatly
> appreciated - thanks in advance, Bill
It would be nice if you'd mention the engine size as well as the year
of your Virago.
I looked at the SHIFT CAM FORK as well as the SHIFTER SHAFT fiches for
a 1984 XV1000 Virago and I see that it has a mickey mouse sheet metal
linkage with a spring loaded stopper arm that has a roller that
apparently drops into the valleys of a multi-lobed cam on the end of
the cylindrical shifter drum.
Yamaha calls the multi-lobed cam a "segment". Can you see that
multi-lobed cam near the shifter mechanism on the engine? Some people
call it a "star wheel", but it's part of the gear position detent
mechanism. The stopper arm and the star wheel are what hold the
transmission in whatever gear (or neutral) you shift into.
Something might be hanging up the stopper arm, or you might have
position the hairpin spring incorrectly.
Or, it's possible you reinstalled the shifter pedal improperly and you
might not notice that the pedal or part of the linkage is hitting part
of the frame or the engine before you get the pedal moved far enough to
go into first gear. Second gear wouldn't require moving the pedal so
far.
Also, the oil in the engine might be old and goopy and the transmission
gears might not be sliding sideways freely. Of course, you should have
the rear wheel moving or be free to move in order to shift gears.
Sometimes when you're stopped the gears just aren't in position for the
dogs to slide right into the slots on the adjacent gears and you hear
the dogs on the sides of the gears grinding, it's not the actual gear
teeth making that awful sound...
Does the neutral light ever work at all? I saw a grounding contact on
the
star wheel for the neutral light. Yamaha calls it a "point".
In the worst possible scenario, one of the shifter forks has gotten
bent from forced shifting, or the shifter fork nub that is supposed to
follow the groove in the rotating shifter drum has jumped out of the
groove.
That problem typically requires removing the engine from the frame and
splitting the cases to fix.
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #454956 ] |
Mon, 26 September 2005 19:28 |
|
Krusty - XV700 - 1985; first the multi lobed cam or star wheel - I was
not 100% sure when I put it back together that it was in the correct
position. Basically it could be pointed in an upward or downward
position. I went with the downward postion. This is really the only
piece I messed with. I pulled the assembly off the side cover while
removing it and basically just put it back while re-assembling side
cover. I dont know if the hairpin spring thing could be out of position
because I did take it apart. I will double check the shifter pedal. The
oil was recently changed. The neutral light always worked before the
repair. Last night once I noticed the light coming on when I leaned the
bike to the right - when I stood up straight the light would go out.
Does this make sense?
krusty kritter wrote:
> Bill wrote:
> > Repaired the famous starter problem over the weekend and when starting
> > up - I noticed the neutral light was off (even though it was in
> > neutral) and I could barely get into a gear grinding the whole time -
> > The clutch works but when I try to go down to first or up to second it
> > just grinds. Power off the bike and I can kick it into gear; start it
> > - then I might be able to bring back to neutral but thats about it.
> > Also when I have up on center stand I can get into gear but must hold
> > the shifter down to maintain in gear (wheel spinning). If I let up it
> > just goes back to neutral; grinds when I try to shift. Could I have
> > installed the internal shift linkage incorrectly? Of course the trans
> > and clutch worked perfectly before the repair! I have the manual and
> > was very careful while doing this. Any suggestions would be greatly
> > appreciated - thanks in advance, Bill
>
> It would be nice if you'd mention the engine size as well as the year
> of your Virago.
>
> I looked at the SHIFT CAM FORK as well as the SHIFTER SHAFT fiches for
> a 1984 XV1000 Virago and I see that it has a mickey mouse sheet metal
> linkage with a spring loaded stopper arm that has a roller that
> apparently drops into the valleys of a multi-lobed cam on the end of
> the cylindrical shifter drum.
>
> Yamaha calls the multi-lobed cam a "segment". Can you see that
> multi-lobed cam near the shifter mechanism on the engine? Some people
> call it a "star wheel", but it's part of the gear position detent
> mechanism. The stopper arm and the star wheel are what hold the
> transmission in whatever gear (or neutral) you shift into.
>
> Something might be hanging up the stopper arm, or you might have
> position the hairpin spring incorrectly.
>
> Or, it's possible you reinstalled the shifter pedal improperly and you
> might not notice that the pedal or part of the linkage is hitting part
> of the frame or the engine before you get the pedal moved far enough to
> go into first gear. Second gear wouldn't require moving the pedal so
> far.
>
> Also, the oil in the engine might be old and goopy and the transmission
> gears might not be sliding sideways freely. Of course, you should have
> the rear wheel moving or be free to move in order to shift gears.
> Sometimes when you're stopped the gears just aren't in position for the
> dogs to slide right into the slots on the adjacent gears and you hear
> the dogs on the sides of the gears grinding, it's not the actual gear
> teeth making that awful sound...
>
> Does the neutral light ever work at all? I saw a grounding contact on
> the
> star wheel for the neutral light. Yamaha calls it a "point".
>
> In the worst possible scenario, one of the shifter forks has gotten
> bent from forced shifting, or the shifter fork nub that is supposed to
> follow the groove in the rotating shifter drum has jumped out of the
> groove.
>
> That problem typically requires removing the engine from the frame and
> splitting the cases to fix.
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #454969 ] |
Tue, 27 September 2005 04:53 |
|
update - tonight I took apart and found the hairpin on the wrong side
of the stop - meaning the star wheel was just kind of loose. Rookie
mistake. Now its fixed; shifts perfectly and neutral light works as it
should. Thanks for the suggestions - it got me going in the right
direction. Question - one of the many bolts that holds the left side
cover on broke - the hidden one inside the clutch cover. How would you
fix it? Easy out? Thanks again for your help - Bill
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #454971 ] |
Tue, 27 September 2005 05:06 |
|
Bill wrote:
> update - tonight I took apart and found the hairpin on the wrong side
> of the stop - meaning the star wheel was just kind of loose. Rookie
> mistake. Now its fixed; shifts perfectly and neutral light works as it
> should. Thanks for the suggestions - it got me going in the right
> direction.
Good. I'm glad I could help.
> Question - one of the many bolts that holds the left side
> cover on broke - the hidden one inside the clutch cover. How would you
> fix it? Easy out?
EZ Outs were invented by Satan to tempt us with an apparently easy
solution to the broken bolt problem. But, an EZ Out is just too hard
and brittle, compared to the soft bolt you're trying to remove. (1)
Some other posters have recommended using a reversible drill on broken
bolts.
Before using the reversible drill, I suggest smacking the end of the
broken off bolt with a hammer and a punch several times. That usually
helps.
(1) I remember an Air force tech sergeant that broke off an engine
mount bolt in the compressor of a J-33 turbojet engine. No problem, he
thinks. He runs down to the tool crib and gets a drill and an EZ Out
and proceeds to drill a hole for the EZ out. Then he breaks off the EZ
out. No problem, he thinks, so he goes and gets a smaller drill and
makes a hole in the hard EZ Out with great effort, screws the smaller
EZ Out in and breaks it off too. Then he starts with a hammer and cold
chisel trying to
get the original bolt out. He tears up the expen$ive compressor case,
gets court martialed and has to pay for the damaged case out of his
pay...
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #454979 ] |
Tue, 27 September 2005 05:45 |
|
On 26 Sep 2005 20:06:02 -0700, "krusty kritter" <kriyamanna [at] aol.com>
wrote:
>EZ Outs were invented by Satan to tempt us with an apparently easy
>solution to the broken bolt problem. But, an EZ Out is just too hard
>and brittle, compared to the soft bolt you're trying to remove. (1)
Heh. Gospel from your fingers to my eyes. If the bolt's bottomed in
the hole, you're usually screwed (no pun intended).
>Some other posters have recommended using a reversible drill on broken
>bolts.
>
>Before using the reversible drill, I suggest smacking the end of the
>broken off bolt with a hammer and a punch several times. That usually
>helps.
Have had excellent results with drill-out extractors:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes &vertical=TOOL&pid=00952155000
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002NYBGO/103 -0597393-2154247?v=glance
They make bigger sizes, but they are a different type (don't work as
well). Use the LH drill bit end, flip it around, stick in the
extractor end (chucking the drill on the hex). If you look close, you
will notice the extractor is necked down and will break leaving an
extended portion that's makes removing the stub easy.
Downside is they really work best chucked in a reversible clutch-type
drill. Set the clutch low to start with and vibrate 'em right out.
Used one to save my ass getting a taffy-headed straight-slot fillister
head mounting screw out of a totally unaccessable fuel selector valve.
Couldn't see it without a mirror. Chucked the little wonder in a
reversible 90 degree air drill and backed the bitch right the heck
out.
Next best thing is:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&am p;item_ID=158&group_ID=1254&store=snapon-store&d ir=catalog
but a case bolt is probably going to be on the small side for a
straight spline extractor.
I've got a couple of these that have twisted the width of the straight
spline without breaking. The $napon man can ki$$ my a$$, but these
extractors have worked well for me also on everything from airplanes
to heavy equipment. Have never snapped one off, but they will spin in
the fastener.
Kroil it, beat it, heat it (if possible), repeat. If in a blind hole,
drill (parallel and centered) completely through the fastener, Ki, bi,
hi, stick in the extractor and back it out. If some dumb bastard has
used a high-strength thread-locker, without heat, forget it.
BTW, have no financial interest in any of these tools/companies, just
have used them to remove a bunch of busted hardware.
TC
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #454984 ] |
Tue, 27 September 2005 09:33 |
|
"Bill" <bspratt [at] yahoo.com> wrote in news:1127789616.302907.92550
[at] g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> update - tonight I took apart and found the hairpin on the wrong side
> of the stop - meaning the star wheel was just kind of loose. Rookie
> mistake. Now its fixed; shifts perfectly and neutral light works as it
> should. Thanks for the suggestions - it got me going in the right
> direction. Question - one of the many bolts that holds the left side
> cover on broke - the hidden one inside the clutch cover. How would you
> fix it? Easy out? Thanks again for your help - Bill
>
Is there any chance that the bolt broke and that it is not really tight in
there? If so a small pin punch might spin it out of there. A left handed
drill might also work.
If not, then you have to have a lot of patience, good eyesight, and drill
the critter out of there. Be very careful, take your time and it will be
ok. Make sure that center punch mark is dead on centered and well defined.
The worst thing you can do is drill it off center. You are really hosed
then.
There is another way to look at it. "If n-1 bolts can't hold it on, then n
bolts won't." The larger n is, the better.
pierce
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #454998 ] |
Wed, 28 September 2005 01:30 |
|
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
> "If n-1 bolts can't hold it on, then n
> bolts won't."
Equivalently, "If n bolts will hold it on, then n-1 bolts can."
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #455001 ] |
Wed, 28 September 2005 04:27 |
|
Matt <themattfella [at] xxyyyzzzz.com> wrote in news:TCk_e.68$647.30
[at] news01.roc.ny:
> R. Pierce Butler wrote:
>
>> "If n-1 bolts can't hold it on, then n
>> bolts won't."
>
> Equivalently, "If n bolts will hold it on, then n-1 bolts can."
>
I like mine better. It has a nice ring to it as in "If 5 bolts won't hold
it on, 6 won't". Then again, it could be a northern thing.
pierce
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #460924 ] |
Mon, 03 October 2005 22:53 |
|
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
> Matt <themattfella [at] xxyyyzzzz.com> wrote in news:TCk_e.68$647.30
> [at] news01.roc.ny:
>
>
>>R. Pierce Butler wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"If n-1 bolts can't hold it on, then n
>>>bolts won't."
>>
>>Equivalently, "If n bolts will hold it on, then n-1 bolts can."
>>
>
>
> I like mine better. It has a nice ring to it as in "If 5 bolts won't hold
> it on, 6 won't". Then again, it could be a northern thing.
^^^^^^^^
how so?
>
> pierce
>
>
|
|
|
| Re: 1985 Virago starter problem now gear shift problem [message #460925 ] |
Mon, 03 October 2005 23:00 |
|
Matt wrote:
> R. Pierce Butler wrote:
>
>> Matt <themattfella [at] xxyyyzzzz.com> wrote in news:TCk_e.68$647.30
>> [at] news01.roc.ny:
>>
>>
>>> R. Pierce Butler wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "If n-1 bolts can't hold it on, then n bolts won't."
>>>
>>>
>>> Equivalently, "If n bolts will hold it on, then n-1 bolts can."
>>>
>>
>>
>> I like mine better. It has a nice ring to it as in "If 5 bolts won't
>> hold it on, 6 won't". Then again, it could be a northern thing.
>
> ^^^^^^^^
> how so?
>
>>
>> pierce
>>
>>
The spacing in my post may not have come out right. How would it be a
northern thing?
|
|
|
