| nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442788] |
Thu, 22 September 2005 01:30 |
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I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then park
overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the key
on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to start
blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
--
jlpridge
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442789 ] |
Thu, 22 September 2005 06:37 |
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jlpridge <jlpridge.1vqr7w [at] news.motorbikebanter.com> wrote in
news:jlpridge.1vqr7w [at] news.motorbikebanter.com:
>
> I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
> fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then park
> overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
> battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the key
> on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
> soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to start
> blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
>
>
Something is draining the battery or the battery is bad. I have seen
batteries discharge themselves. Charge them up and they pass the current
draw test (barely). Let them sit and they are dead in 8 hours. To test
for this, charge the battery and leave it disconnected from the bike and
the charger overnight. Connect it to the bike in the morning. If the bike
starts OK then the battery is probably good.
If something is draining the battery, then you have to track it down. It
could be a bad rectifier/regulator, switch or ????.
pierce
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442791 ] |
Thu, 22 September 2005 06:07 |
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"jlpridge" <jlpridge.1vqr7w [at] news.motorbikebanter.com> wrote in message
news:jlpridge.1vqr7w [at] news.motorbikebanter.com...
>
> I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
> fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then park
> overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
> battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the key
> on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
> soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to start
> blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
>
Assuming you checked the fluid level in your battery, if you don't know the
age of the battery, odds are it's dead. Even batteries that are well cared
for and kept charged eventually die of old age (key symptom: won't hold a
charge). Would not cost too much to buy a replacement battery and install it
(after charging it for at least 24 hours after filling it). If you invest in
a new battery (an inevitability), it's worth your while to also invest in a
good trickle charger.
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442793 ] |
Thu, 22 September 2005 16:05 |
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"Ron Seiden" <killspam [at] nothere.com> wrote in
news:1127389024_631 [at] spool6-east.superfeed.net:
> "jlpridge" <jlpridge.1vqr7w [at] news.motorbikebanter.com> wrote in message
> news:jlpridge.1vqr7w [at] news.motorbikebanter.com...
>>
>> I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
>> fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then park
>> overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
>> battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the key
>> on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
>> soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to start
>> blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
>>
> Assuming you checked the fluid level in your battery, if you don't know
> the age of the battery, odds are it's dead. Even batteries that are well
> cared for and kept charged eventually die of old age (key symptom: won't
> hold a charge). Would not cost too much to buy a replacement battery and
> install it (after charging it for at least 24 hours after filling it).
> If you invest in a new battery (an inevitability), it's worth your while
> to also invest in a good trickle charger.
>
>
All of the batteries I have bought were ready to go as soon as I brought
them home. I didn't have to charge them at all. Drop it in and fire the
bike up. Go for a nice ride and the bike will charge the battery.
pierce
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442796 ] |
Thu, 22 September 2005 16:56 |
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jlpridge wrote:
> I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
> fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then park
> overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
> battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the key
> on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
> soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to start
> blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
You need to start educating yourself on permanent magnet alternators
and shunt type rectifier regulators and the typical Honda problems with
bad electrical connections and too damned many of them.
I've written about a hundred thousand words on the subject and they are
all archived on Google, so you might try doing a google search for some
of my older e-mail addresses, like "kaybearjr [at] aol", and
"spectraltarsier [at] aol" +permanent magnet alternator and diodes and read
up on the subject, because I'm NOT going to type all that stuff out
again and I don't plan to put up a web page either.
And, you'd better start hoping that the problem is just bad electrical
connections, a defective rectifier regulator, or an old sulfated
battery that won't take a full charge, because the 1983 CB-550
Nighthawk was a glorious ONE YEAR ONLY model, and the aftermarket folks
DO NOT make a replacement stator for the weird alternator with its
2-piece permanent magnet rotor.
If nobody knows where you can get a good used stator (like a motorcycle
salvage yard, I wish you lotsa luck finding one for such a rare
motorbike), Honda will sell you a new one for about $275...
Also, google the internet for "stator +CB550 Nighthawk". Somebody
probably knows more than me about Nighthawks.
Electrosport and other companies do make aftermarket voltage
regulator/rectifier assemblies for your Nighthawk.
Some information about troubleshooting motorcycle charging systems can
be found here:
http://www.electrosport.com/05_technical_start.html
It may be more confusing than helpful. If I hadn't been to electrical
tech school, I would get anything at all out of their diode testing
procedure.
An exploded view of the weird split rotor alternator with its air
cooling fan can be seen at www.partsfish.com. Just register and you can
look at the alternator parts fiche for free.
I was trying to figure out how the alternator was driven, whether by
gear or chain, but it's unclear from the drawing. However it's driven,
the rotor MUST BE TURNING to charge the battery!
One of the things that the instructors attempted to pound into our
thick skulls at electrical tech school was that an alternator rotor
must be ROTATING in order to generate any juice, but a whole generation
of aircraft electricians was often fooled by that part of the
troubleshooting process. I've only run across one alternator whose
rotor wasn't turning though. It's something to keep in mind.
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442800 ] |
Fri, 23 September 2005 01:04 |
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"krusty kritter" <kriyamanna [at] aol.com> wrote in
news:1127401009.010428.255190 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
> jlpridge wrote:
>> I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
>> fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then park
>> overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact the
>> battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the key
>> on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and as
>> soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to start
>> blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
>
> You need to start educating yourself on permanent magnet alternators
> and shunt type rectifier regulators and the typical Honda problems with
> bad electrical connections and too damned many of them.
>
> I've written about a hundred thousand words on the subject and they are
> all archived on Google, so you might try doing a google search for some
> of my older e-mail addresses, like "kaybearjr [at] aol", and
> "spectraltarsier [at] aol" +permanent magnet alternator and diodes and read
> up on the subject, because I'm NOT going to type all that stuff out
> again and I don't plan to put up a web page either.
>
> And, you'd better start hoping that the problem is just bad electrical
> connections, a defective rectifier regulator, or an old sulfated
> battery that won't take a full charge, because the 1983 CB-550
> Nighthawk was a glorious ONE YEAR ONLY model, and the aftermarket folks
> DO NOT make a replacement stator for the weird alternator with its
> 2-piece permanent magnet rotor.
>
> If nobody knows where you can get a good used stator (like a motorcycle
> salvage yard, I wish you lotsa luck finding one for such a rare
> motorbike), Honda will sell you a new one for about $275...
>
> Also, google the internet for "stator +CB550 Nighthawk". Somebody
> probably knows more than me about Nighthawks.
>
> Electrosport and other companies do make aftermarket voltage
> regulator/rectifier assemblies for your Nighthawk.
>
> Some information about troubleshooting motorcycle charging systems can
> be found here:
>
> http://www.electrosport.com/05_technical_start.html
>
> It may be more confusing than helpful. If I hadn't been to electrical
> tech school, I would get anything at all out of their diode testing
> procedure.
>
> An exploded view of the weird split rotor alternator with its air
> cooling fan can be seen at www.partsfish.com. Just register and you can
> look at the alternator parts fiche for free.
>
> I was trying to figure out how the alternator was driven, whether by
> gear or chain, but it's unclear from the drawing. However it's driven,
> the rotor MUST BE TURNING to charge the battery!
>
> One of the things that the instructors attempted to pound into our
> thick skulls at electrical tech school was that an alternator rotor
> must be ROTATING in order to generate any juice, but a whole generation
> of aircraft electricians was often fooled by that part of the
> troubleshooting process. I've only run across one alternator whose
> rotor wasn't turning though. It's something to keep in mind.
>
>
What will blow your mind is a brushless alternator. That's right. No
brushes at all. It is an interesting design and it is one that I wish had
had more of a following.
pierce
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442801 ] |
Fri, 23 September 2005 01:13 |
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"R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks [at] google.com> wrote in
news:Xns96D9B73F778B6mc2500183316chgoill [at] 10.232.1.1:
> "krusty kritter" <kriyamanna [at] aol.com> wrote in
> news:1127401009.010428.255190 [at] f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
>>
>> jlpridge wrote:
>>> I recently (last week) purchased this motorcycle. IT runs well with a
>>> fully charged battery. However after I ride it for awhile and then
>>> park overnight it does not seem to want to run well at all. In fact
>>> the battery dies and the bike will not even start. I do not leave the
>>> key on or in it overnight. When I jump start it the bike starts up and
>>> as soon as I disconnect the jumper cables it dies. I do not want to
>>> start blindly replacing stuff. Please help. I do like this bike.
>>
>> You need to start educating yourself on permanent magnet alternators
>> and shunt type rectifier regulators and the typical Honda problems with
>> bad electrical connections and too damned many of them.
>>
>> I've written about a hundred thousand words on the subject and they are
>> all archived on Google, so you might try doing a google search for some
>> of my older e-mail addresses, like "kaybearjr [at] aol", and
>> "spectraltarsier [at] aol" +permanent magnet alternator and diodes and read
>> up on the subject, because I'm NOT going to type all that stuff out
>> again and I don't plan to put up a web page either.
>>
>> And, you'd better start hoping that the problem is just bad electrical
>> connections, a defective rectifier regulator, or an old sulfated
>> battery that won't take a full charge, because the 1983 CB-550
>> Nighthawk was a glorious ONE YEAR ONLY model, and the aftermarket folks
>> DO NOT make a replacement stator for the weird alternator with its
>> 2-piece permanent magnet rotor.
>>
>> If nobody knows where you can get a good used stator (like a motorcycle
>> salvage yard, I wish you lotsa luck finding one for such a rare
>> motorbike), Honda will sell you a new one for about $275...
>>
>> Also, google the internet for "stator +CB550 Nighthawk". Somebody
>> probably knows more than me about Nighthawks.
>>
>> Electrosport and other companies do make aftermarket voltage
>> regulator/rectifier assemblies for your Nighthawk.
>>
>> Some information about troubleshooting motorcycle charging systems can
>> be found here:
>>
>> http://www.electrosport.com/05_technical_start.html
>>
>> It may be more confusing than helpful. If I hadn't been to electrical
>> tech school, I would get anything at all out of their diode testing
>> procedure.
>>
>> An exploded view of the weird split rotor alternator with its air
>> cooling fan can be seen at www.partsfish.com. Just register and you can
>> look at the alternator parts fiche for free.
>>
>> I was trying to figure out how the alternator was driven, whether by
>> gear or chain, but it's unclear from the drawing. However it's driven,
>> the rotor MUST BE TURNING to charge the battery!
>>
>> One of the things that the instructors attempted to pound into our
>> thick skulls at electrical tech school was that an alternator rotor
>> must be ROTATING in order to generate any juice, but a whole generation
>> of aircraft electricians was often fooled by that part of the
>> troubleshooting process. I've only run across one alternator whose
>> rotor wasn't turning though. It's something to keep in mind.
>>
>>
>
> What will blow your mind is a brushless alternator. That's right. No
> brushes at all. It is an interesting design and it is one that I wish
> had had more of a following.
>
> pierce
>
BTW when I mean brushless I don't mean a permanent magnet alternator
either. It has a field coil, stator, etc. but no brushes.
pierce
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442806 ] |
Fri, 23 September 2005 01:44 |
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R. Pierce Butler wrote:
> What will blow your mind is a brushless alternator. That's right. No
> brushes at all. It is an interesting design and it is one that I wish had
> had more of a following.
Somebody else said that Honda used brushless alternators on some of
their earlier machines. Did the 550 Nighthawk also have a brushless
excited field alternator?
The concept of a brushless alternator is not alien to me. The B-52H had
125,000 volt amp brushless alternators. I vaguely recall that a DC
generator on one end of the rotating shaft somehow induced excitation
current into the AC rotor. I ran a few of them on the test stand at
Edwards AFB in the early 1960's.
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442810 ] |
Fri, 23 September 2005 02:39 |
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"krusty kritter" <kriyamanna [at] aol.com> wrote in
news:1127432684.399277.322330 [at] g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> R. Pierce Butler wrote:
>
>> What will blow your mind is a brushless alternator. That's right. No
>> brushes at all. It is an interesting design and it is one that I wish
>> had had more of a following.
>
> Somebody else said that Honda used brushless alternators on some of
> their earlier machines. Did the 550 Nighthawk also have a brushless
> excited field alternator?
>
> The concept of a brushless alternator is not alien to me. The B-52H had
> 125,000 volt amp brushless alternators. I vaguely recall that a DC
> generator on one end of the rotating shaft somehow induced excitation
> current into the AC rotor. I ran a few of them on the test stand at
> Edwards AFB in the early 1960's.
>
>
The ones I am referring to are made by delco. The clamshell is connected
to the shaft at one end only. The allows the clamshell to slide between
the stator and the exciter coil (rotor coil?). Spiffy stuff but generally
used in heavy duty marine and heavy equipment only. The only moving parts
are the rotor and the bearings for the rotor. The only failures I have
seen are regulators and bearings. Saw a coil go open once. I took off
one layer of windings and that fixed that.
pierce
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442811 ] |
Fri, 23 September 2005 03:04 |
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R. Pierce Butler wrote:
> The ones I am referring to are made by delco. The clamshell is connected
> to the shaft at one end only. The allows the clamshell to slide between
> the stator and the exciter coil (rotor coil?). Spiffy stuff but generally
> used in heavy duty marine and heavy equipment only. The only moving parts
> are the rotor and the bearings for the rotor. The only failures I have
> seen are regulators and bearings. Saw a coil go open once. I took off
> one layer of windings and that fixed that.
Take a look at the alternator fiche for the 1983 CB550 Nighthawk if you
have time. It sounds similar to what you're describing, but the
"clamshell" is two parts with a locating pin.
And the regulator rectifier has TWO electrical connectors on it instead
of just one. I'd like to see a repair manual on that motorbike to see
what's up with the charging system...
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| Re: nighthawk 550 electrical problem [message #442816 ] |
Fri, 23 September 2005 06:43 |
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"krusty kritter" <kriyamanna [at] aol.com> wrote in
news:1127437487.291091.280120 [at] g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> R. Pierce Butler wrote:
>> The ones I am referring to are made by delco. The clamshell is
>> connected to the shaft at one end only. The allows the clamshell to
>> slide between the stator and the exciter coil (rotor coil?). Spiffy
>> stuff but generally used in heavy duty marine and heavy equipment only.
>> The only moving parts are the rotor and the bearings for the rotor.
>> The only failures I have seen are regulators and bearings. Saw a coil
>> go open once. I took off one layer of windings and that fixed that.
>
> Take a look at the alternator fiche for the 1983 CB550 Nighthawk if you
> have time. It sounds similar to what you're describing, but the
> "clamshell" is two parts with a locating pin.
>
> And the regulator rectifier has TWO electrical connectors on it instead
> of just one. I'd like to see a repair manual on that motorbike to see
> what's up with the charging system...
>
>
It is my guess based on earlier diagrams that in previos years honda had a
seperate rectifier and regulator. When they combined them the two
functions into one box, they kept the connections separate meaning that
the recifier assy has it's own plug and the regulator has it's own plug
even though it is all part of the same module. With a setup like that one
can certainly diagnose the alternator easier. At least I think it is
easier.
pierce
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