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General » rec.autos.driving » Saw an intelligent bicyclist today
| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796633 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 00:57 |
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On Mar 1, 3:24 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
> In article <26f0ea16-2978-4800-ab20-8ebc2a949... [at] q33g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, frkry... [at] gmail.com wrote:
>
> ><sigh> You've missed the most important distinction. Here it is
> > again: Bicyclists almost exclusively harm only themselves, in the rare
> > cases they cause any harm at all. Motorists harm others, by the tens
> > of thousands per year in the US. And society is, very logically, much
> > more concerned about harm a person imposes on others.
>
> Your arguement for being special. I guess those peds that have been
> killed by being hit by bicycle riders don't count. One of those was in
> the news in chicago a few years back. Someone got up off a bench stepped
> on to the bike trail right in front of a rider.
Yes. There seem to be roughly one of those incidents per year in the
US. (Feel free to prove me wrong.)
OTOH, there are approximately 5000 pedestrians killed by motorists
every year in the US. The World Almanac is one easy source for that.
And there are roughly 40,000 _other_ motorists killed by motorists
each year in the US. There are approximately zero motorists ever
killed by bicyclists.
Again, the rest of even our car-crazy American society understands
this perfectly, and thus imposes more restrictions on motorists than
cyclists. It takes an extremely car-crazy motorhead to fail to
understand these facts.
> > Your recollection of safety data is in fatalities to the operator, per
> > unit time or per unit mile. But if you were to find data on
> > fatalities of _others_ caused by cyclists, per time or per mile, it
> > would be literally hundreds of thousands of times smaller than
> > fatalities of others caused by motorists.
>
> No it's total fatalities. And here you go again with totals. Rates are
> what is important not totals.
Brent, which do you want to talk about? Rates? Fine. Your argument
is even weaker than talking about total numbers. Cyclist-caused
fatalities are vanishingly rare. If divided by cycling miles, the
result would be infinitesmal.
Don't you see you're digging a hole for yourself?
>
> > Unfortunately for our debate, you probably won't be able to find any
> > data on fatalities to others per hour of bicycling. That number is
> > simply too low to bother measuring.
>
> And probably wrongly recorded when a bicycle rider violates the vehicle
> code and the driver avoiding him hits someone else.
Unlike you, I won't give much weight to your imagination. If you
think cyclists cause a number of deaths comparable to motorists -
whether per year, per mile ridden, whatever - give us data, not your
personal fantasies.
- Frank Krygowski
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796634 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 01:07 |
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On Mar 1, 3:36 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
>
> Try passing properly. I never have that happen to me and here's why... I
> pass and get it over with. Especially with a truck. Sitting along side a
> truck passing it with a tiny speed differential is dangerous.
So, to describe something that's happened to me countless times:
Truck in the right lane going less than the speed limit. I see this
from far back. At the appropriate time, I signal and move to the left
lane. I'm on cruise control.
In some cases, there has been another motorist in front of me, going
more slowly than I, but still passing the truck. In other cases, it
was clear in front, but (again) I'm on cruise.
Now a very fast driver, typically in either an SUV or a large pickup,
comes up from way behind. He doesn't bother to slow until he's right
behind me, and he remains right behind me, usually about ten feet
back. We're doing perhaps 65 mph.
If there is a driver in front of me, what am I supposed to do?
Even if there's not a driver in front of me, am I supposed to go ten
mph over the speed limit because the guy behind wants me to?
If I do that, then find I'm looking at a radar gun, will the patrolman
accept my excuse that I had to speed way up to save the tailgater a
few seconds?
Or should I perhaps carry a pint bottle of chartreuse paint, and
accidentally fling it out my window at tailgaters like that?
- Frank Krygowski
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796636 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 01:17 |
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On Mar 1, 4:18 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
> In article <fqcg2o$kk... [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
> >
> > Generally I agree. However, if when a change into the left lane to pass,
> > and someone who is zig-zagging through traffic pulls up two feet behind
> > me and starts flashing their high-beams, they are just behaving like
> > jerks and I will not accommodate them.
>
> When I see someone blocking the passing lane from way back, like a 1/4
> mile I start with the left turn signal. Then at about an 1/8 mile I flash
> the fog lamps. at about half that the flash-to-pass. If they've ignored
> all that, then it's not me who is the asshole. By the time I get to flash
> to pass there has been an opening for them to move right for some time
> and they have just refused to do so.
That's not always true.
Oh, I'm sure it's always true when it's Brent flashing, but other
"flash to pass" fiends have done that to me when I'm alongside semis,
as just described in another post.
But please, what do you do next? Tailgate? That is, of course,
typical of impatient, self-important motorists.
>
> > Tell the person in front of you in a pedestrian queue to "get the fuck
> > out of the road" and see what reaction you get.
>
> The pedestrian equal to flash to pass, would be 'excuse me, could you
> move to the right' or at the very worst, a polite 'coming through!' as
> one would see in a busy resturant kitchen scene or something.
The pedestrian equivalent to the highway behavior I've described would
be to jog through a crowd of people walking, continually bitching "Get
out of my way! Get out of my way!", then breathing down the neck of
anyone who didn't do so fast enough.
> Sadly due to decades of 'speed kills' and more recently 'road rage'
> nonsense, flashing the high beams taught many people wrongly that it is
> an aggressive bullying signal. It just isn't and never was.
It has been in my experience many times. Not always, granted, but
many times. Anytime anyone flashes to pass me when I'm busy passing
someone else, it's bullying. And of course, the same goes for
tailgating, which is done much more frequently (and almost always done
when headlights are being flashed, IME).
- Frank Krygowski
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796637 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 01:32 |
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In article <dd4ec975-b4cb-47a9-840f-595a7b2e9840 [at] u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, frkrygow [at] gmail.com wrote:
> If you want to compare total damages by cyclists vs motorists, you
> can't propose adding in only the tiny car dings caused by bicyclists,
Tiny dings my ass. You should have seen the big ass dent I mostly pushed
out of the fender of my grandmother's car where some kid on a bike wasn't
watching where he was going and rode staight into her car. (at that time
stopped at a stop sign) Now it's just a huge ding after I worked the
metal for awhile in my own home-brewed paintless dent removal technique.
It was a large dent and it was collision without any injuries caused by
only the energy of the bicycle, most of which went into the wheel of the
car since the dent is directly above the front wheel.
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796638 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 01:36 |
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In article <e0b9bcce-1eaa-4b7e-a7ae-0f46b8d79350 [at] e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, frkrygow [at] gmail.com wrote:
> risk to anyone else but motorists. For one simple example, I'm sure
> that nearly 100% of motorists speed through school zones.
I drive through two school zones every day on my commute to and from
work. I take different routes each way, two different schools. I don't
speed in either of them. However in the one on the way home I am
tailgated, usually by the parents heading to the school to pick up their
precious little snowflake.
> But it
> would take extreme callousness to say we should let them drive through
> those zones as fast as 85% want to.
You have no understanding of the 85th percentile method and its been
explained to you in detail several times. Thusly you are either
intentionally being an asshole or are willfully ignorant. When the 85th
percentile method is used, all low speed limit zones like for schools are
for a clear reason. In the present 'pull a number out of someone's ass'
method, low speed limits are everywhere for no reason much of the time.
Thusly the motorist often doesn't know that the 25mph speed limit is for
a school or if it's just another 25mph speed limit for revenue purposes.
(neither school I drive regularly has a school zone speed limit sign, the
regular limit is 25mph)
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796641 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 02:02 |
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In article <34dded03-ed63-4d14-ab48-c71afeb7bccc [at] p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, frkrygow [at] gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 1, 3:14 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
>>
>>
>> Obviously you didn't watch the news report I pointed you to. Here's a
>> summary. Bicycle racer gets hit running a red signal. Interviewed people
>> saying that cars do the damage and bicycle riders should be special.
>
> I watched it. IIRC, it was not "people" saying bicycle rider should
> be special. It was one guy with a round face and funny glasses.
>
> He was correct in saying that cars cause lots of damage. He was wrong
> in saying that the idiots doing the racing were not to be blamed, or
> whatever he implied. (BTW, do keep in mind that it's standard
> technique in such interviews to edit out many reasonable statements so
> only the uncompromising ones can be broadcast, for the sake of
> controversy.)
The problem is that I've heard this same argument for running red signals
and special treatment so many times in so many places for so many years it
wasn't shocking or odd to hear it again in the news report. Thing was,
when I heard the first reports of the death, I by default thought it was
another case of magic words. It was only in the later reports it became
clear that this was a red-light runner.
>> Determined by me? Not at all... the 85th percentile method was determined
>> to be the best known engineering practice and codified into the MUTCD and
>> law long before I was even driving, probably before I was born.
> And as we've discussed before, that 85th percentile method takes no
> account of danger or damage to non-motorists.
Wrong. It's been explained to you before. The 85th percentile method when
used properly will have low speed limits WHERE THERE ARE SPECIAL
CONDITIONS such as large numbers of pedestrians. The thing is, if all the
speed limits made sense, those special areas would stand out, drivers
would know they are special. When nearly every road is underposted those
areas just blend in.
> As I told Nate, if you
> want to beat that dead horse, start another thread. Fact is, you want
> speed limits raised, never lowered.
I've so rarely come across a road that was overposted it's not an issue.
Hell, Frank, There are roads around me that are underposted FOR MY
BICYCLE RIDING. Yes, they are posted that low.
>> I suppose you like stopping every couple hundred feet on a bicycle. If
>> you do, you're quite odd.
> That's a straw man, and quite irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact
> that you've whined to have stop signs removed, as I said. You've
> never asked that any be added.
It's not a strawman Frank. One of the roads I regularly ride has a series
of stop signs, half at T intersections on the top of the T, forcing me to
stop every few hundred feet or so. It's annoying.
> The consistent factor is this: You don't want to be delayed when
> you're driving.
I told you before frank, it doesn't bother me so much when I am driving.
It bothers me when I am BIKING. I don't drive many roads with these stop
signs on anything close to a regular basis. The road I mentioned above,
I've driven it TWICE. (both because of police check point actions on the
main road. I knew how to avoid the checkpoint because of my biking) I've
biked it a few hundred times.
You should know that it's a much bigger pain in the ass to regain speed
when biking then when driving.
>> >:-) Yes, I remember. You disallow the solution that's been shown to
>> > work perfectly about three miles from my house, by simply proclaiming
>> > that it doesn't work.
>> They don't 'work perfectly', far from it.
> The folks in that neighborhood had no complaints about their speed
> humps. Your predictions of gouged pavement, broken car parts, etc.
> have not come true, AFAIK. Stop whining. Slow down.
Your sample of one doesn't coung.
>> Go ahead, let towns turn their roads
>> into an SUV proving ground. I just won't go there, shop there, etc
>
> Excellent! Another success - reducing motor vehicle traffic!
I won't bike there either, Frank. And guess what, less sales tax
revenue requires more property tax revenue. Guess who shot themselves in
the foot?
>> > I'm sorry, Brent, but you're extremely confused. As that newscast
>> > says, those racers "blow through traffic lights and ignore other
>> > traffic laws." I'm specifically saying I _don't_ ask for those
>> > things.
>>
>> Yet you pick up their core argument... 'cars kill, not bikes'
> You're giving undue attention to one character of many. You ignore,
> for example, the bike shop owner who instead was calling for an end to
> the racing.
We aren't talking about the racing Frank.
> And do you deny that cars kill? More specifically, do you _really_
> deny that cars cause many thousands of times as many deaths as
> bikes?
Rates are more important than totals. Figures don't lie but liars figure.
> Again, since you need frequent reminders: I do not lobby for bikes to
> be exempt from the rules of the road. Quite the opposite. However, I
> do think that car drivers have been given far too much privilege.
You are using political arguments that are for bicycling over driving.
I'm sorry, but I believe all road users have to follow the same set of
rules and there isn't a morally superiority because of vehicle weight.
> I think the motorists' requests we've gotten here are evidence of
> spoiled childhoods that have not yet ended. Higher speed limits?
> Removal of stop signs? Ability to speed though residential
> neighborhoods? Garish clothing on anyone who might inconvenience
> you?
> Grow up, and slow down.
Frank, you're an asshole. Plain and simple. If I were still a child, I
would blindly obey what I was told, much like you want. You want this
parental style of government that treats people like children who cannot
be behave in a responsible manner without constant restriction and
oversight.
As far as my desire for 85th percentile speed limits.... I want 85th
percentile speed limits for my biking as well. I *HATE* biking
underposted arterial roads. I'll actually
bike the roads with HIGHER speed limits over ones with lower speed limits
because the traffic flow is much better and far less chaotic. In one
area I ride to cross a river I can choose between a 6 lane road with a
45mph limit with low traffic density. A 4 lane road with a 50mph limit
with moderate traffic density. A two lane road with a 40mph limit with
high traffic density. Guess which one is the easiest to ride? The 50mph 4
lane. The 6 lane should be the easiest to ride. Lots of room for the
traffic, but because of its severe underposting the passing lane is
usually blocked making the right lane just another lane to get by slow
moving traffic. The 4 lane doesn't have that behavior to any large degree
and drivers just switch into the left lane to pass me. On the 6 lane they
want to 'share' the right lane to pass other motorists. The two lane is
just a cluster fuck. This is where I encountered the 'drive car' guy who
was threatening violence if I didn't give up my spot in the queue for
him. (backup at a dead stop)
I know what pisses you off about me is that I drive and bike and see no
conflict between the goals of both. You are a bicyclist in conflict with
the automobile drivers.
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796642 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 02:08 |
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In article <87a75f5f-b334-4c2d-9ed4-f0f7633d8be4 [at] h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, frkrygow [at] gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 1, 3:24 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
>> In article <26f0ea16-2978-4800-ab20-8ebc2a949... [at] q33g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, frkry... [at] gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> ><sigh> You've missed the most important distinction. Here it is
>> > again: Bicyclists almost exclusively harm only themselves, in the rare
>> > cases they cause any harm at all. Motorists harm others, by the tens
>> > of thousands per year in the US. And society is, very logically, much
>> > more concerned about harm a person imposes on others.
>>
>> Your arguement for being special. I guess those peds that have been
>> killed by being hit by bicycle riders don't count. One of those was in
>> the news in chicago a few years back. Someone got up off a bench stepped
>> on to the bike trail right in front of a rider.
>
> Yes. There seem to be roughly one of those incidents per year in the
> US. (Feel free to prove me wrong.)
>
> OTOH, there are approximately 5000 pedestrians killed by motorists
> every year in the US. The World Almanac is one easy source for that.
Of course you neglect the ped idiotcy is often exactly the same as it is
when they step in front of a bicyclist.
> And there are roughly 40,000 _other_ motorists killed by motorists
> each year in the US. There are approximately zero motorists ever
> killed by bicyclists.
I've already dealt with this.
> Again, the rest of even our car-crazy American society understands
> this perfectly, and thus imposes more restrictions on motorists than
> cyclists. It takes an extremely car-crazy motorhead to fail to
> understand these facts.
What is this babble supposed to be frank? An argument for bicyclists not
needing to follow the rules of the road? Yes, I know you won't actually
say that, but you keep presenting an argument that bicyclists have some
sort of moral superiority. So, what sort of freedom from restriction do
you propose that I have when biking but not driving? Please, tell me,
because I can think of anything that doesn't involve government
registration and licensing, which isn't about safety anyway.
>> > Your recollection of safety data is in fatalities to the operator, per
>> > unit time or per unit mile. But if you were to find data on
>> > fatalities of _others_ caused by cyclists, per time or per mile, it
>> > would be literally hundreds of thousands of times smaller than
>> > fatalities of others caused by motorists.
>> No it's total fatalities. And here you go again with totals. Rates are
>> what is important not totals.
> Brent, which do you want to talk about? Rates? Fine. Your argument
> is even weaker than talking about total numbers. Cyclist-caused
> fatalities are vanishingly rare. If divided by cycling miles, the
> result would be infinitesmal.
Cyclist caused fatalities? I see you have a very warped view. I guess you
don't count a bicyclist running a red signal and getting killed as
cyclist caused? It's cyclist caused.
> Don't you see you're digging a hole for yourself?
You have a warped political view of the facts frank.
>>
>> > Unfortunately for our debate, you probably won't be able to find any
>> > data on fatalities to others per hour of bicycling. That number is
>> > simply too low to bother measuring.
>> And probably wrongly recorded when a bicycle rider violates the vehicle
>> code and the driver avoiding him hits someone else.
> Unlike you, I won't give much weight to your imagination. If you
> think cyclists cause a number of deaths comparable to motorists -
> whether per year, per mile ridden, whatever - give us data, not your
> personal fantasies.
I'm sorry Frank, I don't play in warped view of the world where the
existance of the automobile makes it the 'cause'.
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796643 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 02:14 |
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In article <ec26d7fb-850a-43d7-9088-a5526f3c6ef2 [at] p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, frkrygow [at] gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 1, 3:36 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
>>
>> Try passing properly. I never have that happen to me and here's why... I
>> pass and get it over with. Especially with a truck. Sitting along side a
>> truck passing it with a tiny speed differential is dangerous.
>
> So, to describe something that's happened to me countless times:
>
> Truck in the right lane going less than the speed limit. I see this
> from far back. At the appropriate time, I signal and move to the left
> lane. I'm on cruise control.
>
> In some cases, there has been another motorist in front of me, going
> more slowly than I, but still passing the truck. In other cases, it
> was clear in front, but (again) I'm on cruise.
>
> Now a very fast driver, typically in either an SUV or a large pickup,
> comes up from way behind. He doesn't bother to slow until he's right
> behind me, and he remains right behind me, usually about ten feet
> back. We're doing perhaps 65 mph.
> If there is a driver in front of me, what am I supposed to do?
The guy in front of you and you are micro passing. Given your
description even if there was no one in front of you, you'd be doing just
about the same thing. You both should turn off the cruise control and
pass properly. Do it and get it done with.
> Even if there's not a driver in front of me, am I supposed to go ten
> mph over the speed limit because the guy behind wants me to?
You can
A) wait until the faster driver is past you before you start your pass.
B) Pass and get it over with before he catches up to you.
It's funny how you have this problem and I don't.
> If I do that, then find I'm looking at a radar gun, will the patrolman
> accept my excuse that I had to speed way up to save the tailgater a
> few seconds?
When I am affraid of the revenuers I don't pass to go a couple mph
faster. You're so anti-speed anyway, why don't you just drive slower and
stay in the right lane?
> Or should I perhaps carry a pint bottle of chartreuse paint, and
> accidentally fling it out my window at tailgaters like that?
When I am stuck behind an asshole like you and some other asshole who
cannot look further ahead starts tailgating me I point at the vehicle in
front of me. This usually causes the asshat behind to back off. Although
sometimes it doesn't. When that occurs, I wait for an opening on the
right, I take it, and then I don't increase speed. I let the asshat
behind me tailgate the one that was in front of me.
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796645 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 02:19 |
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In article <7a9c9b5e-2445-4a59-a02b-bfb056f11ed2 [at] s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, frkrygow [at] gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 1, 4:18 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
>> In article <fqcg2o$kk... [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>> >
>> > Generally I agree. However, if when a change into the left lane to pass,
>> > and someone who is zig-zagging through traffic pulls up two feet behind
>> > me and starts flashing their high-beams, they are just behaving like
>> > jerks and I will not accommodate them.
>>
>> When I see someone blocking the passing lane from way back, like a 1/4
>> mile I start with the left turn signal. Then at about an 1/8 mile I flash
>> the fog lamps. at about half that the flash-to-pass. If they've ignored
>> all that, then it's not me who is the asshole. By the time I get to flash
>> to pass there has been an opening for them to move right for some time
>> and they have just refused to do so.
>
> That's not always true.
>
> Oh, I'm sure it's always true when it's Brent flashing, but other
> "flash to pass" fiends have done that to me when I'm alongside semis,
> as just described in another post.
They are telling you to get the pass over with. Why are you sitting next
to a semi micro-passing? Oh yeah you blame the guy in front of you, but
you stay on cruise control so even if there was no one in front of you
you're doing the same BS.
> But please, what do you do next? Tailgate? That is, of course,
> typical of impatient, self-important motorists.
I would suggest that you don't pass because of your views on speed. Why
do you need to pass anyway? If you're going to argue that your slower
speed is morally superior, that you're not 'self-important', why are you
passing in the first place? Just stay in the right lane and go slower and
be more morally superior yet.
>> > Tell the person in front of you in a pedestrian queue to "get the fuck
>> > out of the road" and see what reaction you get.
>>
>> The pedestrian equal to flash to pass, would be 'excuse me, could you
>> move to the right' or at the very worst, a polite 'coming through!' as
>> one would see in a busy resturant kitchen scene or something.
> The pedestrian equivalent to the highway behavior I've described would
> be to jog through a crowd of people walking, continually bitching "Get
> out of my way! Get out of my way!", then breathing down the neck of
> anyone who didn't do so fast enough.
Nice media interpetation there frank.
>> Sadly due to decades of 'speed kills' and more recently 'road rage'
>> nonsense, flashing the high beams taught many people wrongly that it is
>> an aggressive bullying signal. It just isn't and never was.
> It has been in my experience many times. Not always, granted, but
> many times. Anytime anyone flashes to pass me when I'm busy passing
> someone else, it's bullying. And of course, the same goes for
> tailgating, which is done much more frequently (and almost always done
> when headlights are being flashed, IME).
It's quite obvious your passes are taking about a day and half to
complete. That's the problem. Turn off the cruise control and drive. Pass
and get it over with. If it's going to take you a year and half to pass
you probably shouldn't bother to pass in the first place. I don't even
know if the cruise control on my car works. I bought it new, I've
had it for over 11 years and a 169,000 miles and I've never used the
cruise control.
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796646 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 02:26 |
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Nate Nagel wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But in any case, you have admitted to *slowing down* in the
>>>>>>> process of
>>>>>>> passing a truck because a following driver offended you somehow.
>>>>>>> That ought to be illegal... oh wait, it is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It ought to be illegal to use a vehicle in such an offensive and
>>>>>> aggressive manner.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I agree, deliberately blocking traffic is offensive and
>>>>> aggressive. Your driver's license, please?
>>>>>
>>>>> nate
>>>>>
>>>>> (seriously. start driving like a reasonable person or stay the
>>>>> fuck off the road. There's enough assholes on the road already.)
>>>>>
>>>> So are you one of those people who weaves back and forth through
>>>> traffic thinking everyone should get the hell out of their way? That
>>>> is who you are defending here.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, I'm one of those people who simply expects others to follow the
>>> rules of the road. I'm actually one of the slower drivers in my
>>> area, not that it really matters. People are going to drive at
>>> speeds different from one another; that's a fact of life and you
>>> can't do anything about it. What you *can* do is be courteous and
>>> accomodating, so everyone gets where they're going with a minimum of
>>> hassle and frustration.
>>>
>> Well, I am referring to driver's whose expectation is that everyone
>> else get the hell out of their way.
>
> That's a reasonable expectation, if they are driving faster than the
> main flow and traffic isn't jammed up.
>
And how often does that apply to the right lane of an urban interstate?
Should people get out of the right (i.e. slow) lane to let faster
traffic by? Should not the faster traffic be passing on the left?
>> These people are invariably driving vehicles that cost 2 to 3 times
>> the mean vehicle price.
>
> Envy much?
>
No, people of a certain class believe that they have special privileges
that lower classes do not.
>>> It's not up to you to make a judgement call as to the reasonableness
>>> of another vehicle operator's speed. If you misjudge and
>>> inadvertantly hold someone up for a few seconds while passing, that's
>>> an honest mistake.
>>
>> >
>> If it is a honest mistake, does that allow for the driver being
>> delayed one or two seconds the right to act like an asshole?
>
> If it's only one or two seconds, they probably won't act like an
> asshole. If it's "as long as possible," well, people are human.
>
My experience is that they act like jerks if they have to slow down say
5 mph for one of two seconds.
>>> But if you deliberately hold them up, that's "passive-aggressive
>>> driving" in my book and just as unacceptable as tailgating, cutting
>>> someone off, etc.
>>>
>> When someone else acts like an asshole first without provocation,
>> should one give in and let the MFFY bastards win? In the passing the
>> semi-truck situation, if the third driver stays back a couple of
>> vehicle lengths, I will speed up and return to the right lane as soon
>> as possible. If they try to intimidate me off the road, to hell with
>> them. They can sit and stew.
>
> So you're as much of an asshole as anyone else on the road. Got it.
>
And you are one of the people that acts like a jerk? Got it.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
|
|
| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796647 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 02:33 |
|
Brent P? wrote:
> In article <fqchsh$stm$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Brent P? wrote:
>>> In article <fqcg2o$kka$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>> Brent P? wrote:
>>>>> In article <fqcbk6$ua4$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>> Just try driving from Clarksville to Nashville at anything less than 10
>>>>>>>>> over the limit. Either you'll be continuously slowing down (for slow
>>>>>>>>> semis) and speeding back up, or you'll have a**holes riding two feet off
>>>>>>>>> your tail and cutting through non-existent gaps to get in front as
>>>>>>>>> you try
>>>>>>>>> to pass the semis. [...]
>>>>>>>> That is when you take as long as possible to pass the truck.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is when you should lose your driver's license.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, if someone is in the act of already passing the truck when the
>>>>>> faster third vehicle catches up, the driver who started the pass should
>>>>>> complete the pass and pull back to the right lane as soon as it is safe.
>>>>>> The driver of the faster third vehicle has the expectation that vehicles
>>>>>> will move over to the right lane as soon as it is safe, and should
>>>>>> maintain a safe following distance until that occurs. Pulling up two
>>>>>> feet of someone's bumper and flashing the "brights" in that situation is
>>>>>> just being an asshole. Try acting the same way in a pedestrian queue,
>>>>>> and you will rightfully get your ass kicked.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, these drivers are often the same assholes that will come up
>>>>>> behind someone in the RIGHT LANE (in a right-hand drive country) and
>>>>>> tailgate at 2 feet with their "brights" on. Their expectation is not of
>>>>>> correct behavior (as would be expected in say Germany), but simply that
>>>>>> the "lesser" people get out of their road.
>>>>> Try passing properly. I never have that happen to me and here's why... I
>>>>> pass and get it over with. Especially with a truck. Sitting along side a
>>>>> truck passing it with a tiny speed differential is dangerous. It's
>>>>> saying, 'let's sit here next to big truck to maximize our chances of
>>>>> being impacted by tire blowing out, cargo falling off, etc'. Once I
>>>>> passed a truck quickly and then heard something behind me. A piece of
>>>>> a steel part or hold down or something had fallen off the truck and
>>>>> landed in the road behind me. People have been crushed by steel coils
>>>>> falling off flat bed trucks. You don't sit there along side of them
>>>>> taking minutes to complete a simple pass.
>>>>>
>>>> Generally I agree. However, if when a change into the left lane to pass,
>>>> and someone who is zig-zagging through traffic pulls up two feet behind
>>>> me and starts flashing their high-beams, they are just behaving like
>>>> jerks and I will not accommodate them.
>>> When I see someone blocking the passing lane from way back, like a 1/4
>>> mile I start with the left turn signal. Then at about an 1/8 mile I flash
>>> the fog lamps. at about half that the flash-to-pass. If they've ignored
>>> all that, then it's not me who is the asshole. By the time I get to flash
>>> to pass there has been an opening for them to move right for some time
>>> and they have just refused to do so.
>
>> Do you do it if they passing a semi-truck at a speed at least 10 mph
>> faster than the truck and before they could physically get back to the
>> right lane?
>
> Why should it take them long enough to pass a single semi for me to even
> get close to them?
>
Well, if the truck is driving 55 mph in the middle or right lane, the
person passing the truck is driving 65 or 70 mph, and you were driving
85 or 90 mph, you could be well back when they started to pass the truck
at a reasonable rate and still catch up to them.
>>>> Tell the person in front of you in a pedestrian queue to "get the fuck
>>>> out of the road" and see what reaction you get.
>
>>> Flash-to-pass means 'you're blocking the passing lane, please move right
>>> like you are supposed to'. The problem is the news media and others think
>>> it means 'get the fuck off the road'. It doesn't.
>
>> So when I am in the right lane and someone pulls right up behind me and
>> flashes the high-beams several times, what does it mean? That I should
>> get off the road completely? And why do only the drivers of large and/or
>> expensive vehicles do so?
>
> I can count on one hand the number of asshats that have flashed me in the
> right lane. And that was because they were tailgating me so I
> took my foot off the accelerator to slow to the posted minimum and then
> they flashed the highbeams. It's the right lane and there is no
> expectation of going anywhere else.
>
Well, I have found that being aggressively tailgated in the right lane
is a daily occurrence.
> There have been a couple instances where I have flashed someone in the
> right lane but those were people who cut me off. I would be traveling in
> the right lane and some slower driver would wait to the last possible
> second and then cut over to the right without a signal forcing me to
> brake to avoid him. The flash was an attempt to wake them up, but they knew
> what they were doing, they just didn't want someone getting by their
> rolling road block. These are the typical 'none-shall-pass'
> passive-aggressive types out there.
>
So why were you trying to pass on the right in the first place?
>>> The pedestrian equal to flash to pass, would be 'excuse me, could you
>>> move to the right' or at the very worst, a polite 'coming through!' as
>>> one would see in a busy resturant kitchen scene or something.
>
>>> Sadly due to decades of 'speed kills' and more recently 'road rage'
>>> nonsense, flashing the high beams taught many people wrongly that it is
>>> an aggressive bullying signal. It just isn't and never was. It's
>>> communication no different than a turn signal. Although a long dash of a
>>> the high beams does indicate that the driver sending the signal considers
>>> the other one to be an asshole.
>> There is a difference between a "flash-to-pass" from a distance, and
>> when it is done from less than 5 feet in an inappropriate situation.
>
> What are you babbling about? I don't understand how you people have this
> problem with people flashing you and you claim to be driving correctly
> and not blocking up passing lanes. I practice a strict keep right except
> to pass and pass swiftly and it just doesn't happen to me. And it's not
> like I am driving in bu-fu either, I am driving urban/suburban
> expressways in and around chicago. Sometimes I drive faster than most,
> sometimes I drive slower than most. I just don't have this problem. I
> pass, I get it over with, I move right. Usually the person coming up
> behind me doesn't even get within the length of a semi of me. If I am
> trapped some asshats will get too close, but that's because I am blocked
> by the driver in front of me.
>
Yes, I have driven quite a bit in Chicagoland, and it is not unusual to
start to pass a truck on the left, and to be blocked from completing the
pass by a vehicle ahead. When this occurs it should be obvious to any
driver following me what is happening, so it is ridiculous for them to
aggressively tailgate in that instance. But yet it frequently happens.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796648 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 02:34 |
|
Nate Nagel wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Brent P? wrote:
>>
>>> In article <fqcg2o$kka$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brent P? wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <fqcbk6$ua4$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>> Just try driving from Clarksville to Nashville at anything less
>>>>>>>>> than 10
>>>>>>>>> over the limit. Either you'll be continuously slowing down
>>>>>>>>> (for slow
>>>>>>>>> semis) and speeding back up, or you'll have a**holes riding two
>>>>>>>>> feet off
>>>>>>>>> your tail and cutting through non-existent gaps to get in front
>>>>>>>>> as you try
>>>>>>>>> to pass the semis. [...]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is when you take as long as possible to pass the truck.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is when you should lose your driver's license.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, if someone is in the act of already passing the truck when the
>>>>>> faster third vehicle catches up, the driver who started the pass
>>>>>> should complete the pass and pull back to the right lane as soon
>>>>>> as it is safe. The driver of the faster third vehicle has the
>>>>>> expectation that vehicles will move over to the right lane as soon
>>>>>> as it is safe, and should maintain a safe following distance until
>>>>>> that occurs. Pulling up two feet of someone's bumper and flashing
>>>>>> the "brights" in that situation is just being an asshole. Try
>>>>>> acting the same way in a pedestrian queue, and you will rightfully
>>>>>> get your ass kicked.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, these drivers are often the same assholes that will
>>>>>> come up behind someone in the RIGHT LANE (in a right-hand drive
>>>>>> country) and tailgate at 2 feet with their "brights" on. Their
>>>>>> expectation is not of correct behavior (as would be expected in
>>>>>> say Germany), but simply that the "lesser" people get out of their
>>>>>> road.
>>>>>
>>>>> Try passing properly. I never have that happen to me and here's
>>>>> why... I pass and get it over with. Especially with a truck.
>>>>> Sitting along side a truck passing it with a tiny speed
>>>>> differential is dangerous. It's saying, 'let's sit here next to big
>>>>> truck to maximize our chances of being impacted by tire blowing
>>>>> out, cargo falling off, etc'. Once I passed a truck quickly and
>>>>> then heard something behind me. A piece of a steel part or hold
>>>>> down or something had fallen off the truck and landed in the road
>>>>> behind me. People have been crushed by steel coils falling off flat
>>>>> bed trucks. You don't sit there along side of them taking minutes
>>>>> to complete a simple pass.
>>>>>
>>>> Generally I agree. However, if when a change into the left lane to
>>>> pass, and someone who is zig-zagging through traffic pulls up two
>>>> feet behind me and starts flashing their high-beams, they are just
>>>> behaving like jerks and I will not accommodate them.
>>>
>>>
>>> When I see someone blocking the passing lane from way back, like a
>>> 1/4 mile I start with the left turn signal. Then at about an 1/8 mile
>>> I flash the fog lamps. at about half that the flash-to-pass. If
>>> they've ignored all that, then it's not me who is the asshole. By the
>>> time I get to flash to pass there has been an opening for them to
>>> move right for some time and they have just refused to do so.
>>
>> Do you do it if they passing a semi-truck at a speed at least 10 mph
>> faster than the truck and before they could physically get back to the
>> right lane?
>>
>>>> Tell the person in front of you in a pedestrian queue to "get the
>>>> fuck out of the road" and see what reaction you get.
>>>
>>>
>>> Flash-to-pass means 'you're blocking the passing lane, please move
>>> right like you are supposed to'. The problem is the news media and
>>> others think it means 'get the fuck off the road'. It doesn't.
>>
>> So when I am in the right lane and someone pulls right up behind me
>> and flashes the high-beams several times, what does it mean? That I
>> should get off the road completely? And why do only the drivers of
>> large and/or expensive vehicles do so?
>>
>>> The pedestrian equal to flash to pass, would be 'excuse me, could you
>>> move to the right' or at the very worst, a polite 'coming through!'
>>> as one would see in a busy resturant kitchen scene or something.
>>> Sadly due to decades of 'speed kills' and more recently 'road rage'
>>> nonsense, flashing the high beams taught many people wrongly that it
>>> is an aggressive bullying signal. It just isn't and never was. It's
>>> communication no different than a turn signal. Although a long dash
>>> of a the high beams does indicate that the driver sending the signal
>>> considers the other one to be an asshole.
>>
>> There is a difference between a "flash-to-pass" from a distance, and
>> when it is done from less than 5 feet in an inappropriate situation.
>>
>
> Yes, when it's done at less than 5 feet it means you're blocking.
>
Even when there is a vehicle ahead that prevents one from going any faster?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796649 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 02:53 |
|
frkrygow [at] gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Mar 1, 1:12 pm, Nate Nagel <njna... [at] roosters.net> wrote:
>> frkry... [at] gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Mar 1, 1:19 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET... [at] yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
>>>> In article <09778de6-164a-42c8-9556-3e5446d3d... [at] m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, frkry... [at] gmail.com wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> But, as I recall, there have been plenty of r.a.d. motorists calling
>>>>> for speed limits raised to suit _their_ preferences.
>>>> I've asked that speed limits be set according to
>>>> IL's law demanding compliance with the MUTCD, which is to set them by the
>>>> best known engineering method....
>>> Yes, as determined by _you_ - which, coincidentally, never means
>>> lowering them. You are asking for changes in the law to suit you.
>>> Including your favorite rationale doesn't change that fact.
>> Brent is the Federal Highway Administration?
>>
>> also the Institute of Transportation Engineers report that "The
>> responses indicated that the 85thpercentile speed is the predominant
>> factor used when setting speed limits."
>
> We've been through this before. The "85%" doesn't acknowledge any
> risk to anyone else but motorists. For one simple example, I'm sure
> that nearly 100% of motorists speed through school zones. But it
> would take extreme callousness to say we should let them drive through
> those zones as fast as 85% want to.
>
Or a belief in thinning the herd. ;)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796650 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 03:09 |
|
In article <fqd056$rsr$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Why should it take them long enough to pass a single semi for me to even
>> get close to them?
> Well, if the truck is driving 55 mph in the middle or right lane, the
> person passing the truck is driving 65 or 70 mph, and you were driving
> 85 or 90 mph, you could be well back when they started to pass the truck
> at a reasonable rate and still catch up to them.
I don't know where trucks actually go 55mph, but anyway... I just don't
have anyone come out of nowhere up on to my bumper when I move out to
pass. Sometimes it happens when I am cruising over to the right, but
generally those folks are doing over 100mph.
What I do have is when I am passing at +10-15 is some asshat decide he
has to pass now and cuts me off and then starts a pass at +5 or less.
There is no way I am going to catch up to a +15 passer unless he changed
lanes in front of me rudely at the last possible moment and then
accelerated to +15.
>>> So when I am in the right lane and someone pulls right up behind me and
>>> flashes the high-beams several times, what does it mean? That I should
>>> get off the road completely? And why do only the drivers of large and/or
>>> expensive vehicles do so?
>>
>> I can count on one hand the number of asshats that have flashed me in the
>> right lane. And that was because they were tailgating me so I
>> took my foot off the accelerator to slow to the posted minimum and then
>> they flashed the highbeams. It's the right lane and there is no
>> expectation of going anywhere else.
> Well, I have found that being aggressively tailgated in the right lane
> is a daily occurrence.
I've had semi's a few feet off my bumper in the right lane. They don't
flash however until after I've slowed because of their tailgating. And I
can only think of one that flashed. Most use the airhorn or get even
closer.
>> There have been a couple instances where I have flashed someone in the
>> right lane but those were people who cut me off. I would be traveling in
>> the right lane and some slower driver would wait to the last possible
>> second and then cut over to the right without a signal forcing me to
>> brake to avoid him. The flash was an attempt to wake them up, but they knew
>> what they were doing, they just didn't want someone getting by their
>> rolling road block. These are the typical 'none-shall-pass'
>> passive-aggressive types out there.
> So why were you trying to pass on the right in the first place?
I was going my chosen speed in the right most lane. The question is, why
were they in the middle and left lanes if they weren't passing anyone.
>>> There is a difference between a "flash-to-pass" from a distance, and
>>> when it is done from less than 5 feet in an inappropriate situation.
>> What are you babbling about? I don't understand how you people have this
>> problem with people flashing you and you claim to be driving correctly
>> and not blocking up passing lanes. I practice a strict keep right except
>> to pass and pass swiftly and it just doesn't happen to me. And it's not
>> like I am driving in bu-fu either, I am driving urban/suburban
>> expressways in and around chicago. Sometimes I drive faster than most,
>> sometimes I drive slower than most. I just don't have this problem. I
>> pass, I get it over with, I move right. Usually the person coming up
>> behind me doesn't even get within the length of a semi of me. If I am
>> trapped some asshats will get too close, but that's because I am blocked
>> by the driver in front of me.
> Yes, I have driven quite a bit in Chicagoland, and it is not unusual to
> start to pass a truck on the left, and to be blocked from completing the
> pass by a vehicle ahead. When this occurs it should be obvious to any
> driver following me what is happening, so it is ridiculous for them to
> aggressively tailgate in that instance. But yet it frequently happens.
And I let them have my spot. Then I find a way around on the right and
leave the asshat stuck there.
|
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796651 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 03:14 |
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But in any case, you have admitted to *slowing down* in the
>>>>>>>> process of
>>>>>>>> passing a truck because a following driver offended you
>>>>>>>> somehow. That ought to be illegal... oh wait, it is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It ought to be illegal to use a vehicle in such an offensive and
>>>>>>> aggressive manner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I agree, deliberately blocking traffic is offensive and
>>>>>> aggressive. Your driver's license, please?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> nate
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (seriously. start driving like a reasonable person or stay the
>>>>>> fuck off the road. There's enough assholes on the road already.)
>>>>>>
>>>>> So are you one of those people who weaves back and forth through
>>>>> traffic thinking everyone should get the hell out of their way?
>>>>> That is who you are defending here.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, I'm one of those people who simply expects others to follow the
>>>> rules of the road. I'm actually one of the slower drivers in my
>>>> area, not that it really matters. People are going to drive at
>>>> speeds different from one another; that's a fact of life and you
>>>> can't do anything about it. What you *can* do is be courteous and
>>>> accomodating, so everyone gets where they're going with a minimum of
>>>> hassle and frustration.
>>>>
>>> Well, I am referring to driver's whose expectation is that everyone
>>> else get the hell out of their way.
>>
>>
>> That's a reasonable expectation, if they are driving faster than the
>> main flow and traffic isn't jammed up.
>>
> And how often does that apply to the right lane of an urban interstate?
> Should people get out of the right (i.e. slow) lane to let faster
> traffic by? Should not the faster traffic be passing on the left?
>
>>> These people are invariably driving vehicles that cost 2 to 3 times
>>> the mean vehicle price.
>>
>>
>> Envy much?
>>
> No, people of a certain class believe that they have special privileges
> that lower classes do not.
>
>>>> It's not up to you to make a judgement call as to the reasonableness
>>>> of another vehicle operator's speed. If you misjudge and
>>>> inadvertantly hold someone up for a few seconds while passing,
>>>> that's an honest mistake.
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> If it is a honest mistake, does that allow for the driver being
>>> delayed one or two seconds the right to act like an asshole?
>>
>>
>> If it's only one or two seconds, they probably won't act like an
>> asshole. If it's "as long as possible," well, people are human.
>>
> My experience is that they act like jerks if they have to slow down say
> 5 mph for one of two seconds.
>
>>>> But if you deliberately hold them up, that's "passive-aggressive
>>>> driving" in my book and just as unacceptable as tailgating, cutting
>>>> someone off, etc.
>>>>
>>> When someone else acts like an asshole first without provocation,
>>> should one give in and let the MFFY bastards win? In the passing the
>>> semi-truck situation, if the third driver stays back a couple of
>>> vehicle lengths, I will speed up and return to the right lane as
>>> soon as possible. If they try to intimidate me off the road, to hell
>>> with them. They can sit and stew.
>>
>>
>> So you're as much of an asshole as anyone else on the road. Got it.
>>
> And you are one of the people that acts like a jerk? Got it.
>
I think this is where the thread denigrates to IKYABWAI, isn't it?
Except in this instance, I *am* a courteous driver and you *are* the
asshole.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
|
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796652 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 03:15 |
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
>>> Brent P? wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <fqcg2o$kka$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brent P? wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <fqcbk6$ua4$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>> Just try driving from Clarksville to Nashville at anything
>>>>>>>>>> less than 10
>>>>>>>>>> over the limit. Either you'll be continuously slowing down
>>>>>>>>>> (for slow
>>>>>>>>>> semis) and speeding back up, or you'll have a**holes riding
>>>>>>>>>> two feet off
>>>>>>>>>> your tail and cutting through non-existent gaps to get in
>>>>>>>>>> front as you try
>>>>>>>>>> to pass the semis. [...]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is when you take as long as possible to pass the truck.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is when you should lose your driver's license.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, if someone is in the act of already passing the truck when
>>>>>>> the faster third vehicle catches up, the driver who started the
>>>>>>> pass should complete the pass and pull back to the right lane as
>>>>>>> soon as it is safe. The driver of the faster third vehicle has
>>>>>>> the expectation that vehicles will move over to the right lane as
>>>>>>> soon as it is safe, and should maintain a safe following distance
>>>>>>> until that occurs. Pulling up two feet of someone's bumper and
>>>>>>> flashing the "brights" in that situation is just being an
>>>>>>> asshole. Try acting the same way in a pedestrian queue, and you
>>>>>>> will rightfully get your ass kicked.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, these drivers are often the same assholes that will
>>>>>>> come up behind someone in the RIGHT LANE (in a right-hand drive
>>>>>>> country) and tailgate at 2 feet with their "brights" on. Their
>>>>>>> expectation is not of correct behavior (as would be expected in
>>>>>>> say Germany), but simply that the "lesser" people get out of
>>>>>>> their road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Try passing properly. I never have that happen to me and here's
>>>>>> why... I pass and get it over with. Especially with a truck.
>>>>>> Sitting along side a truck passing it with a tiny speed
>>>>>> differential is dangerous. It's saying, 'let's sit here next to
>>>>>> big truck to maximize our chances of being impacted by tire
>>>>>> blowing out, cargo falling off, etc'. Once I passed a truck
>>>>>> quickly and then heard something behind me. A piece of a steel
>>>>>> part or hold down or something had fallen off the truck and landed
>>>>>> in the road behind me. People have been crushed by steel coils
>>>>>> falling off flat bed trucks. You don't sit there along side of
>>>>>> them taking minutes to complete a simple pass.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Generally I agree. However, if when a change into the left lane to
>>>>> pass, and someone who is zig-zagging through traffic pulls up two
>>>>> feet behind me and starts flashing their high-beams, they are just
>>>>> behaving like jerks and I will not accommodate them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When I see someone blocking the passing lane from way back, like a
>>>> 1/4 mile I start with the left turn signal. Then at about an 1/8
>>>> mile I flash the fog lamps. at about half that the flash-to-pass. If
>>>> they've ignored all that, then it's not me who is the asshole. By
>>>> the time I get to flash to pass there has been an opening for them
>>>> to move right for some time and they have just refused to do so.
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you do it if they passing a semi-truck at a speed at least 10 mph
>>> faster than the truck and before they could physically get back to
>>> the right lane?
>>>
>>>>> Tell the person in front of you in a pedestrian queue to "get the
>>>>> fuck out of the road" and see what reaction you get.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Flash-to-pass means 'you're blocking the passing lane, please move
>>>> right like you are supposed to'. The problem is the news media and
>>>> others think it means 'get the fuck off the road'. It doesn't.
>>>
>>>
>>> So when I am in the right lane and someone pulls right up behind me
>>> and flashes the high-beams several times, what does it mean? That I
>>> should get off the road completely? And why do only the drivers of
>>> large and/or expensive vehicles do so?
>>>
>>>> The pedestrian equal to flash to pass, would be 'excuse me, could
>>>> you move to the right' or at the very worst, a polite 'coming
>>>> through!' as one would see in a busy resturant kitchen scene or
>>>> something.
>>>> Sadly due to decades of 'speed kills' and more recently 'road rage'
>>>> nonsense, flashing the high beams taught many people wrongly that it
>>>> is an aggressive bullying signal. It just isn't and never was. It's
>>>> communication no different than a turn signal. Although a long dash
>>>> of a the high beams does indicate that the driver sending the signal
>>>> considers the other one to be an asshole.
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a difference between a "flash-to-pass" from a distance, and
>>> when it is done from less than 5 feet in an inappropriate situation.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, when it's done at less than 5 feet it means you're blocking.
>>
> Even when there is a vehicle ahead that prevents one from going any faster?
>
Well, then, the guy in *front* of you is an asshole. You should flash
to pass to let him know that he's holding up the whole passing process.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796653 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 03:19 |
|
Brent P? wrote:
> In article <fqd056$rsr$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>>> Why should it take them long enough to pass a single semi for me to even
>>> get close to them?
>
>> Well, if the truck is driving 55 mph in the middle or right lane, the
>> person passing the truck is driving 65 or 70 mph, and you were driving
>> 85 or 90 mph, you could be well back when they started to pass the truck
>> at a reasonable rate and still catch up to them.
>
> I don't know where trucks actually go 55mph, but anyway... I just don't
> have anyone come out of nowhere up on to my bumper when I move out to
> pass. Sometimes it happens when I am cruising over to the right, but
> generally those folks are doing over 100mph.
>
Well, the large trucks often do not move faster than that due to traffic.
Often the person behind when passing is coming from two lanes over to
the right at the last minute, since they are zig-zagging through
traffic, passing on both the left and right.
> What I do have is when I am passing at +10-15 is some asshat decide he
> has to pass now and cuts me off and then starts a pass at +5 or less.
>
> There is no way I am going to catch up to a +15 passer unless he changed
> lanes in front of me rudely at the last possible moment and then
> accelerated to +15.
>
>>>> So when I am in the right lane and someone pulls right up behind me and
>>>> flashes the high-beams several times, what does it mean? That I should
>>>> get off the road completely? And why do only the drivers of large and/or
>>>> expensive vehicles do so?
>>> I can count on one hand the number of asshats that have flashed me in the
>>> right lane. And that was because they were tailgating me so I
>>> took my foot off the accelerator to slow to the posted minimum and then
>>> they flashed the highbeams. It's the right lane and there is no
>>> expectation of going anywhere else.
>
>> Well, I have found that being aggressively tailgated in the right lane
>> is a daily occurrence.
>
> I've had semi's a few feet off my bumper in the right lane. They don't
> flash however until after I've slowed because of their tailgating. And I
> can only think of one that flashed. Most use the airhorn or get even
> closer.
>
I have found plenty of people in smaller vehicles do the same thing -
many of them with HID lights (which generally indicates a more
expensive, newer vehicle).
>>> There have been a couple instances where I have flashed someone in the
>>> right lane but those were people who cut me off. I would be traveling in
>>> the right lane and some slower driver would wait to the last possible
>>> second and then cut over to the right without a signal forcing me to
>>> brake to avoid him. The flash was an attempt to wake them up, but they knew
>>> what they were doing, they just didn't want someone getting by their
>>> rolling road block. These are the typical 'none-shall-pass'
>>> passive-aggressive types out there.
>
>> So why were you trying to pass on the right in the first place?
>
> I was going my chosen speed in the right most lane. The question is, why
> were they in the middle and left lanes if they weren't passing anyone.
>
Well, they are ignorant or badly behaved for driving slower than traffic
in the middle and/or left lanes, but that does not excuse passing them
on the right.
>>>> There is a difference between a "flash-to-pass" from a distance, and
>>>> when it is done from less than 5 feet in an inappropriate situation.
>
>>> What are you babbling about? I don't understand how you people have this
>>> problem with people flashing you and you claim to be driving correctly
>>> and not blocking up passing lanes. I practice a strict keep right except
>>> to pass and pass swiftly and it just doesn't happen to me. And it's not
>>> like I am driving in bu-fu either, I am driving urban/suburban
>>> expressways in and around chicago. Sometimes I drive faster than most,
>>> sometimes I drive slower than most. I just don't have this problem. I
>>> pass, I get it over with, I move right. Usually the person coming up
>>> behind me doesn't even get within the length of a semi of me. If I am
>>> trapped some asshats will get too close, but that's because I am blocked
>>> by the driver in front of me.
>
>> Yes, I have driven quite a bit in Chicagoland, and it is not unusual to
>> start to pass a truck on the left, and to be blocked from completing the
>> pass by a vehicle ahead. When this occurs it should be obvious to any
>> driver following me what is happening, so it is ridiculous for them to
>> aggressively tailgate in that instance. But yet it frequently happens.
>
> And I let them have my spot. Then I find a way around on the right and
> leave the asshat stuck there.
>
Passing on the right again?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796654 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 03:20 |
|
Nate Nagel wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But in any case, you have admitted to *slowing down* in the
>>>>>>>>> process of
>>>>>>>>> passing a truck because a following driver offended you
>>>>>>>>> somehow. That ought to be illegal... oh wait, it is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It ought to be illegal to use a vehicle in such an offensive and
>>>>>>>> aggressive manner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I agree, deliberately blocking traffic is offensive and
>>>>>>> aggressive. Your driver's license, please?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> nate
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (seriously. start driving like a reasonable person or stay the
>>>>>>> fuck off the road. There's enough assholes on the road already.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> So are you one of those people who weaves back and forth through
>>>>>> traffic thinking everyone should get the hell out of their way?
>>>>>> That is who you are defending here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I'm one of those people who simply expects others to follow the
>>>>> rules of the road. I'm actually one of the slower drivers in my
>>>>> area, not that it really matters. People are going to drive at
>>>>> speeds different from one another; that's a fact of life and you
>>>>> can't do anything about it. What you *can* do is be courteous and
>>>>> accomodating, so everyone gets where they're going with a minimum
>>>>> of hassle and frustration.
>>>>>
>>>> Well, I am referring to driver's whose expectation is that everyone
>>>> else get the hell out of their way.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a reasonable expectation, if they are driving faster than the
>>> main flow and traffic isn't jammed up.
>>>
>> And how often does that apply to the right lane of an urban
>> interstate? Should people get out of the right (i.e. slow) lane to let
>> faster traffic by? Should not the faster traffic be passing on the left?
>>
>>>> These people are invariably driving vehicles that cost 2 to 3 times
>>>> the mean vehicle price.
>>>
>>>
>>> Envy much?
>>>
>> No, people of a certain class believe that they have special
>> privileges that lower classes do not.
>>
>>>>> It's not up to you to make a judgement call as to the
>>>>> reasonableness of another vehicle operator's speed. If you
>>>>> misjudge and inadvertantly hold someone up for a few seconds while
>>>>> passing, that's an honest mistake.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> If it is a honest mistake, does that allow for the driver being
>>>> delayed one or two seconds the right to act like an asshole?
>>>
>>>
>>> If it's only one or two seconds, they probably won't act like an
>>> asshole. If it's "as long as possible," well, people are human.
>>>
>> My experience is that they act like jerks if they have to slow down
>> say 5 mph for one of two seconds.
>>
>>>>> But if you deliberately hold them up, that's "passive-aggressive
>>>>> driving" in my book and just as unacceptable as tailgating, cutting
>>>>> someone off, etc.
>>>>>
>>>> When someone else acts like an asshole first without provocation,
>>>> should one give in and let the MFFY bastards win? In the passing the
>>>> semi-truck situation, if the third driver stays back a couple of
>>>> vehicle lengths, I will speed up and return to the right lane as
>>>> soon as possible. If they try to intimidate me off the road, to hell
>>>> with them. They can sit and stew.
>>>
>>>
>>> So you're as much of an asshole as anyone else on the road. Got it.
>>>
>> And you are one of the people that acts like a jerk? Got it.
>>
>
> I think this is where the thread denigrates to IKYABWAI, isn't it?
>
> Except in this instance, I *am* a courteous driver and you *are* the
> asshole.
>
Opinion stated as fact.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796655 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 03:21 |
|
Nate Nagel wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brent P? wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <fqcg2o$kka$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brent P? wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <fqcbk6$ua4$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>> Just try driving from Clarksville to Nashville at anything
>>>>>>>>>>> less than 10
>>>>>>>>>>> over the limit. Either you'll be continuously slowing down
>>>>>>>>>>> (for slow
>>>>>>>>>>> semis) and speeding back up, or you'll have a**holes riding
>>>>>>>>>>> two feet off
>>>>>>>>>>> your tail and cutting through non-existent gaps to get in
>>>>>>>>>>> front as you try
>>>>>>>>>>> to pass the semis. [...]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is when you take as long as possible to pass the truck.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is when you should lose your driver's license.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, if someone is in the act of already passing the truck when
>>>>>>>> the faster third vehicle catches up, the driver who started the
>>>>>>>> pass should complete the pass and pull back to the right lane as
>>>>>>>> soon as it is safe. The driver of the faster third vehicle has
>>>>>>>> the expectation that vehicles will move over to the right lane
>>>>>>>> as soon as it is safe, and should maintain a safe following
>>>>>>>> distance until that occurs. Pulling up two feet of someone's
>>>>>>>> bumper and flashing the "brights" in that situation is just
>>>>>>>> being an asshole. Try acting the same way in a pedestrian queue,
>>>>>>>> and you will rightfully get your ass kicked.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, these drivers are often the same assholes that will
>>>>>>>> come up behind someone in the RIGHT LANE (in a right-hand drive
>>>>>>>> country) and tailgate at 2 feet with their "brights" on. Their
>>>>>>>> expectation is not of correct behavior (as would be expected in
>>>>>>>> say Germany), but simply that the "lesser" people get out of
>>>>>>>> their road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Try passing properly. I never have that happen to me and here's
>>>>>>> why... I pass and get it over with. Especially with a truck.
>>>>>>> Sitting along side a truck passing it with a tiny speed
>>>>>>> differential is dangerous. It's saying, 'let's sit here next to
>>>>>>> big truck to maximize our chances of being impacted by tire
>>>>>>> blowing out, cargo falling off, etc'. Once I passed a truck
>>>>>>> quickly and then heard something behind me. A piece of a steel
>>>>>>> part or hold down or something had fallen off the truck and
>>>>>>> landed in the road behind me. People have been crushed by steel
>>>>>>> coils falling off flat bed trucks. You don't sit there along side
>>>>>>> of them taking minutes to complete a simple pass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Generally I agree. However, if when a change into the left lane to
>>>>>> pass, and someone who is zig-zagging through traffic pulls up two
>>>>>> feet behind me and starts flashing their high-beams, they are just
>>>>>> behaving like jerks and I will not accommodate them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When I see someone blocking the passing lane from way back, like a
>>>>> 1/4 mile I start with the left turn signal. Then at about an 1/8
>>>>> mile I flash the fog lamps. at about half that the flash-to-pass.
>>>>> If they've ignored all that, then it's not me who is the asshole.
>>>>> By the time I get to flash to pass there has been an opening for
>>>>> them to move right for some time and they have just refused to do so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you do it if they passing a semi-truck at a speed at least 10 mph
>>>> faster than the truck and before they could physically get back to
>>>> the right lane?
>>>>
>>>>>> Tell the person in front of you in a pedestrian queue to "get the
>>>>>> fuck out of the road" and see what reaction you get.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Flash-to-pass means 'you're blocking the passing lane, please move
>>>>> right like you are supposed to'. The problem is the news media and
>>>>> others think it means 'get the fuck off the road'. It doesn't.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So when I am in the right lane and someone pulls right up behind me
>>>> and flashes the high-beams several times, what does it mean? That I
>>>> should get off the road completely? And why do only the drivers of
>>>> large and/or expensive vehicles do so?
>>>>
>>>>> The pedestrian equal to flash to pass, would be 'excuse me, could
>>>>> you move to the right' or at the very worst, a polite 'coming
>>>>> through!' as one would see in a busy resturant kitchen scene or
>>>>> something.
>>>>> Sadly due to decades of 'speed kills' and more recently 'road rage'
>>>>> nonsense, flashing the high beams taught many people wrongly that
>>>>> it is an aggressive bullying signal. It just isn't and never was.
>>>>> It's communication no different than a turn signal. Although a long
>>>>> dash of a the high beams does indicate that the driver sending the
>>>>> signal considers the other one to be an asshole.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a difference between a "flash-to-pass" from a distance, and
>>>> when it is done from less than 5 feet in an inappropriate situation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, when it's done at less than 5 feet it means you're blocking.
>>>
>> Even when there is a vehicle ahead that prevents one from going any
>> faster?
>>
>
> Well, then, the guy in *front* of you is an asshole. You should flash
> to pass to let him know that he's holding up the whole passing process.
>
And where is the justification for the person behind me to follow too
closely in that situation?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796656 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 03:43 |
|
In article <fqd2rs$77t$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>> I don't know where trucks actually go 55mph, but anyway... I just don't
>> have anyone come out of nowhere up on to my bumper when I move out to
>> pass. Sometimes it happens when I am cruising over to the right, but
>> generally those folks are doing over 100mph.
> Well, the large trucks often do not move faster than that due to traffic.
Only when no one else is IME.
>>> Well, I have found that being aggressively tailgated in the right lane
>>> is a daily occurrence.
>>
>> I've had semi's a few feet off my bumper in the right lane. They don't
>> flash however until after I've slowed because of their tailgating. And I
>> can only think of one that flashed. Most use the airhorn or get even
>> closer.
> I have found plenty of people in smaller vehicles do the same thing -
> many of them with HID lights (which generally indicates a more
> expensive, newer vehicle).
IME Tailgating yes, flashing... rarely.
>> I was going my chosen speed in the right most lane. The question is, why
>> were they in the middle and left lanes if they weren't passing anyone.
> Well, they are ignorant or badly behaved for driving slower than traffic
> in the middle and/or left lanes, but that does not excuse passing them
> on the right.
Excuse? Why does it have to be excused? It's not illegal and no way am I
going to give some LLB control freak the power to sit in the left lane
and force everyone else to go his chosen speed.
>>> Yes, I have driven quite a bit in Chicagoland, and it is not unusual to
>>> start to pass a truck on the left, and to be blocked from completing the
>>> pass by a vehicle ahead. When this occurs it should be obvious to any
>>> driver following me what is happening, so it is ridiculous for them to
>>> aggressively tailgate in that instance. But yet it frequently happens.
>> And I let them have my spot. Then I find a way around on the right and
>> leave the asshat stuck there.
> Passing on the right again?
Perfectly legal under IL law. Again why do you want to empower LLBs? Are
you one?
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796657 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 03:44 |
|
In article <fqd2vn$77t$3 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Well, then, the guy in *front* of you is an asshole. You should flash
>> to pass to let him know that he's holding up the whole passing process.
>>
> And where is the justification for the person behind me to follow too
> closely in that situation?
There generally isn't. But you should be doing something to correct the
problem.
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796660 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 04:01 |
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But in any case, you have admitted to *slowing down* in the
>>>>>>>>>> process of
>>>>>>>>>> passing a truck because a following driver offended you
>>>>>>>>>> somehow. That ought to be illegal... oh wait, it is.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It ought to be illegal to use a vehicle in such an offensive
>>>>>>>>> and aggressive manner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I agree, deliberately blocking traffic is offensive and
>>>>>>>> aggressive. Your driver's license, please?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> nate
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (seriously. start driving like a reasonable person or stay the
>>>>>>>> fuck off the road. There's enough assholes on the road already.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So are you one of those people who weaves back and forth through
>>>>>>> traffic thinking everyone should get the hell out of their way?
>>>>>>> That is who you are defending here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I'm one of those people who simply expects others to follow
>>>>>> the rules of the road. I'm actually one of the slower drivers in
>>>>>> my area, not that it really matters. People are going to drive at
>>>>>> speeds different from one another; that's a fact of life and you
>>>>>> can't do anything about it. What you *can* do is be courteous and
>>>>>> accomodating, so everyone gets where they're going with a minimum
>>>>>> of hassle and frustration.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I am referring to driver's whose expectation is that everyone
>>>>> else get the hell out of their way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a reasonable expectation, if they are driving faster than the
>>>> main flow and traffic isn't jammed up.
>>>>
>>> And how often does that apply to the right lane of an urban
>>> interstate? Should people get out of the right (i.e. slow) lane to
>>> let faster traffic by? Should not the faster traffic be passing on
>>> the left?
>>>
>>>>> These people are invariably driving vehicles that cost 2 to 3 times
>>>>> the mean vehicle price.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Envy much?
>>>>
>>> No, people of a certain class believe that they have special
>>> privileges that lower classes do not.
>>>
>>>>>> It's not up to you to make a judgement call as to the
>>>>>> reasonableness of another vehicle operator's speed. If you
>>>>>> misjudge and inadvertantly hold someone up for a few seconds while
>>>>>> passing, that's an honest mistake.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> If it is a honest mistake, does that allow for the driver being
>>>>> delayed one or two seconds the right to act like an asshole?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If it's only one or two seconds, they probably won't act like an
>>>> asshole. If it's "as long as possible," well, people are human.
>>>>
>>> My experience is that they act like jerks if they have to slow down
>>> say 5 mph for one of two seconds.
>>>
>>>>>> But if you deliberately hold them up, that's "passive-aggressive
>>>>>> driving" in my book and just as unacceptable as tailgating,
>>>>>> cutting someone off, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>> When someone else acts like an asshole first without provocation,
>>>>> should one give in and let the MFFY bastards win? In the passing
>>>>> the semi-truck situation, if the third driver stays back a couple
>>>>> of vehicle lengths, I will speed up and return to the right lane
>>>>> as soon as possible. If they try to intimidate me off the road, to
>>>>> hell with them. They can sit and stew.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So you're as much of an asshole as anyone else on the road. Got it.
>>>>
>>> And you are one of the people that acts like a jerk? Got it.
>>>
>>
>> I think this is where the thread denigrates to IKYABWAI, isn't it?
>>
>> Except in this instance, I *am* a courteous driver and you *are* the
>> asshole.
>>
> Opinion stated as fact.
Well, it may be my *opinion* that I am a courteous driver, but you have
yet to accuse me of one discourteous behaviour that I actually exhibit.
You however have admitted to being an asshole on the road.
One would think that someone (presumably) posting from a biking group
would be a little more concerned about road safety and driving
correctly, but I guess not.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
|
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| Re: Saw an intelligent bicyclist today [message #796661 ] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 04:03 |
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brent P? wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <fqcg2o$kka$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brent P? wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article <fqcbk6$ua4$1 [at] registered.motzarella.org>, Tom Sherman
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just try driving from Clarksville to Nashville at anything
>>>>>>>>>>>> less than 10
>>>>>>>>>>>> over the limit. Either you'll be continuously slowing down
>>>>>>>>>>>> (for slow
>>>>>>>>>>>> semis) and speeding back up, or you'll have a**holes riding
>>>>>>>>>>>> two feet off
>>>>>>>>>>>> your tail and cutting through non-existent gaps to get in
>>>>>>>>>>>> front as you try
>>>>>>>>>>>> to pass the semis. [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is when you take as long as possible to pass the truck.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is when you should lose your driver's license.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, if someone is in the act of already passing the truck when
>>>>>>>>> the faster third vehicle catches up, the driver who started the
>>>>>>>>> pass should complete the pass and pull back to the right lane
>>>>>>>>> as soon as it is safe. The driver of the faster third vehicle
>>>>>>>>> has the expectation that vehicles will move over to the right
>>>>>>>>> lane as soon as it is safe, and should maintain a safe
>>>>>>>>> following distance until that occurs. Pulling up two feet of
>>>>>>>>> someone's bumper and flashing the "brights" in that situation
>>>>>>>>> is just being an asshole. Try acting the same way in a
>>>>>>>>> pedestrian queue, and you will rightfully get your ass kicked.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course, these drivers are often the same assholes that will
>>>>>>>>> come up behind someone in the RIGHT LANE (in a right-hand drive
>>>>>>>>> country) and tailgate at 2 feet with their "brights" on. Their
>>>>>>>>> expectation is not | |
|
